Teachers behave like children at their conferences

Insect Overlord · 22-04-2014 3:33pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

You didn't direct that at An File, who suggested that expertise in probability and logs wouldn't help a primary teacher. There's the real strawman.

It really is not. Having expertise in those areas might give you a bit more confidence when teaching maths for the first few years as a new teacher, but in practical terms won't be of much use at all in your average Irish primary classroom.

bodice ripper · 22-04-2014 3:33pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

People are focussing on the teacher unions - not individual teachers - who do some marvelous work. Public sector unions had their noses to the through (like many others) during the celtic tiger - cheerleading Bertie's pay and pension's fest.

Well good thing we are focusing on what the teachers are up to, rather than the system being a joke. If I were a teacher (and I more than got the points for it, I gave it a miss because I am not straight and the school system here is still welded to the Catholic Church) I would laugh derisively at the suggestion that my level of education was the problem too.

Cantremember · 22-04-2014 3:33pm

To get back to OP: why should any adult sit and listen like a child to a lecture from any of the politicians in this country? There is no other place where these politicians will be available to the people who have to endure their daft ideas and crucifixion of ordinary people: this sitting in hushed silence before politicians needs to end. The lads campaigning for the right to cut turf on their bogs would give them a proper reception.

Pompous · 22-04-2014 3:33pm

Honours maths is very attainable if you are intelligent and work hard. I don't see how having these two qualities in our teachers is a bad thing. I have certainly come across plenty of teachers who have neither and their continued employment was a mystery to me. Until I found out how the public sector operates.

A better understanding of maths for our teachers means it will be taught to a higher standard in schools. As Einstein said: "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." Explaining things simply in maths is the key to teaching it well.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 3:33pm

osarusan wrote: »

This debate is about maths in primary school, remember.

So, is there any evidence to sugges that primary school teachers are seriously lacking knowledge in the maths they are teaching?

Let's not forget, however, that people who do Higher Level Maths are just a better class of person all round.:P

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-04-2014 3:35pm

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

And I've had some teachers who were great at engaging with students but seriously lacked knowledge in what they were teaching.

We want teachers who are both knowledgable and good at teaching. The second can't be achieved through grade filters but surely the first can be achieved by making sure only students who are competent enough to pass HL in the three core subjects and a science are allowed to start primary teaching training?

Now, as for teachers who are good at engaging with students. I'm open to your suggestions on how that can be achieved with the competency in 4 subjects I've mentioned.

We have an abundance of students graduating from the Leaving Cert looking for college positions and very little job positions. Why can't we be picky?

In what specifically were the teachers lacking and at what level was it? Primary or secondary?

And again: what specifically is on the HL courses that would be essential for teaching at primary?

Pherekydes · 22-04-2014 3:36pm

Cantremember wrote: »

To get back to OP: why should any adult sit and listen like a child to a lecture from any of the politicians in this country?

I think the OP was suggesting that they sit and listen like adults.

You know, thoughtfully...

FrStone · 22-04-2014 3:37pm

It's generally those who come from professions that are Maths intensive (such as Engineers) who love to hold these crack pot opinions about how the world and there Mother should have HL Maths even if the person does not need it.

We see the same here with Ruairi Quinn (an architect) deciding to push Maths where it is not needed. I guarantee some of the posters here (supporting the Minister) are from the same professions who have no expertise in Teaching or Pedagogy at all. Generally they may be Mathematical genius's themselves but absolutely hopeless at teaching someone who struggles with Maths.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 3:38pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And again: what specifically is on the HL courses that would be essential for teaching at primary?

Can you see how this could be taken as a suggestion that, if you are a skilled and enthusiastic enough teacher, no knowledge of maths passed primary school level, would be enough to teach it to children??

flutered · 22-04-2014 3:39pm

let the minister rejig the public sector, then he can condem or congratulate the people that he addresses, look at it this way, in a local primary school a student? in 5th class refuses to partake in all classes, the student reads a book all day, if an attempt is made to remove the book it is pushed inside the track suit bottoms. some tutors in collage, they have all the theory on how its done, but give them an engine or whatever they are lost, the can pontificate on how it done but when it comes to using their hands and brains togeather they become mystified.

Spring Onion · 22-04-2014 3:40pm

Quinn was absolutely right about one thing - we need to take religion out of schools...

Mr Quinn will air his disappointment that Church leaders have failed to set out good practice for schools to facilitate children whose parents do not wish them to take part in faith formation.
Some ideas as to how this could be done were put forward two years ago by a forum Mr Quinn set up to consider how to counter the limited choice of primary schools in some areas, and how schools in areas where increased choice is not likely might better cater for such pupils.
“It is regrettable that, two years after the publication of the forum report, we have yet to see such exemplars furnished by the Catholic Church — the main patron of primary schools in this country,”

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 3:40pm

Cantremember wrote: »

To get back to OP: why should any adult sit and listen like a child to a lecture from any of the politicians in this country?

Since when is sitting still and politely listening to a person speak a thing that only children should do?

Pherekydes · 22-04-2014 3:40pm

An File wrote: »

It really is not. Having expertise in those areas might give you a bit more confidence when teaching maths for the first few years as a new teacher, but in practical terms won't be of much use at all in your average Irish primary classroom.

So, do the teachers need honours level English or Irish?

FrStone · 22-04-2014 3:42pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Let's not forget, however, that people who do Higher Level Maths are just a better class of person all round.:P

Hahahaha!

And this is coming from someone who did HL Maths.

Cantremember · 22-04-2014 3:42pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Since when is sitting still and politely listening to a person speak a thing that only children should do?

The answer is in my previous post.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 3:42pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

So, do the teachers need honours level English or Irish?

Excellent question. I would say yes and yes.

Pherekydes · 22-04-2014 3:42pm

FrStone wrote: »

It's generally those who come from professions that are Maths intensive (such as Engineers) who love to hold these crack pot opinions about how the world and there Mother should have HL Maths even if the person does not need it.

It's not a crackpot opinion to suggest that teachers should have an understanding of the subjects they are teaching.

Insect Overlord · 22-04-2014 3:43pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

So, do the teachers need honours level English or Irish?

Language fluency is a skill picked up far earlier than complex mathematics. So yes.

osarusan · 22-04-2014 3:44pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

It's not a crackpot opinion to suggest that teachers should have an understanding of the subjects they are teaching.

Any evidence to suggest that primary school teachers don't understand the maths they are teaching?

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 3:45pm

An File wrote: »

Language fluency is a skill picked up far earlier than complex mathematics. So yes.

Is fluency in mathematics important for a primary school teacher?

Daisies · 22-04-2014 3:46pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

It's not a crackpot opinion to suggest that teachers should have an understanding of the subjects they are teaching.

This suggests that the thousands of LC students who take OL maths and OL English don't understand maths or English. By default you should be suggesting that anyone teaching maths at secondary school level should have HL maths but this is not often the case.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-04-2014 3:50pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Can you see how this could be taken as a suggestion that, if you are a skilled and enthusiastic enough teacher, no knowledge of maths passed primary school level, would be enough to teach it to children??

You were presenting it as a rule, now its suggestion? I've claimed its a fallacy. You've presented nothing to strengthen your position or weaken mine.

Donstrate competent knowledge of the syllabi you're teaching, then examine the rest of the credentials of the applicant.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 3:50pm

Daisies wrote: »

This suggests that the thousands of LC students who take OL maths and OL English don't understand maths or English..

They don't really understand them well enough to teach them in my opinion. I did ordinary level Germany....I got a C. I was worse than hopeless at it. I shouldn't be allowed to teach it - ever.

Daisies wrote: »

By default you should be suggesting that anyone teaching maths at secondary school level should have HL maths but this is not often the case.

They should - it's regrettable that they all don't.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 3:52pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Donstrate competent knowledge of the syllabus you're teaching, then examine the rest of the credentials of the applicant.

Only the very uneducated would fail the first part of your process above, for maths. Moving on to the credentials, it's not unreasonable to suggest that Higher Level maths is important for primary school teachers.

Pherekydes · 22-04-2014 3:53pm

osarusan wrote: »

Any evidence to suggest that primary school teacher don't understand the maths they are teaching?

Well, obviously I can only relate to my own kids' teachers. Having said that, most kids will ask "How do I do such and such". My daughter asked "Why do you do that?" and the teacher couldn't answer her. She could teach the rule, but couldn't explain (i.e. give a mathematical proof) of the rule.

carraig2 · 22-04-2014 3:53pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

I think the OP was suggesting that they sit and listen like adults.

You know, thoughtfully...

The OP didn't start the post to open a debate on the importance or not of honours maths. Look at the post title.

brooke 2 · 22-04-2014 3:55pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

Will those extra years give the teachers any better understanding of the subject?

Those extra years train people to become teachers. The students
who get the high points needed for teacher training college spend
four years acquiring information re teaching methodologies which
are essential in enabling educators to communicate knowledge
to the children in their care.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-04-2014 3:55pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Only the very uneducated would fail the first part of your process above, for maths. Moving on to the credentials, it's not unreasonable to suggest that Higher Level maths is important for primary school teachers.

You've stated your point. This adds nothing to it, it merely repeats the fallacy.

Spring Onion · 22-04-2014 3:55pm

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Teachers are very dedicated public servants have been hit hard by the recession

Oh please! Get out the violins.
Primary school teachers are very well paid in Ireland and they have fantastic terms and conditions. I working in banking and full time primary school teachers are about the only professions getting automatic mortgage approval these days.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 3:57pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You've stated your point. This adds nothing to it, it merely repeats the fallacy.

Would you care to answer Pherekydes question:

So, do the teachers need honours level English or Irish?

Teachers behave like children at their conferences

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