Irish Rail - 5pm DART from Pearse now only 4 carriages long

LXFlyer · 12-07-2012 3:42pm

The point is running 4 cars is significantly cheaper than running 8 in terms of electricity used.

While I have some sympathy with the DART passengers above, they are only experiencing what Maynooth line passengers have for years.

The reality is that subsidies are being cut and withdrawn and the only way to deal with this is to cut costs. This is one element of this programme I would imagine.

EricPraline · 12-07-2012 3:45pm

n97 mini wrote: »

A lot of people have been asking this on twitter and the stock answer is:

There is reduced capacity on a number of services due to lower seasonal demand

It speaks volumes about (a) the outmoded culture within Irish Rail, (b) the gulf between Irish Rail and their customers, if they assume that the usage for 9-5 commuters will dramatically fall off during summer months. As others have said, the seasonal long July/Aug holidays are a thing of the past in Ireland for most people.

end of the road · 12-07-2012 3:48pm

while cutting costs may be the reason for the shorter trains, in the long run overcrowding is going to drive away customers is it not?

markpb · 12-07-2012 3:49pm

lxflyer wrote: »

While I have some sympathy with the DART passengers above, they are only experiencing what Maynooth line passengers have for years.

Is that relevant?

If IR believe they can't fill an 8 car train in the evening peak, does that mean that all DARTs will be 4 cars for the summer?

Captain Chaos · 12-07-2012 3:52pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I can't understand why it's either 4 or 8, surely if they used mostly 6 carriages they'd have the same effect?

Because the DART units are effectively two fleets of carriages. It's technically 4 but one has 3 sub classes.

The older LHBs can be made up in base sets of 2 so 4,6,8 car trains are possible. The newer Tokyu Car units can only be made up as base sets of 4 so 4 or 8 car trains can be formed.

The new and old DART units used to be mixed together to make 6 car sets with 4 new and 2 old units in the early 2000s when the platforms were not long enough for 8 car trains but that is not done in practice anymore since the older units came back from their mid life refurb.

Millem · 12-07-2012 5:29pm

Was out in Killiney today and saw an 8 car LHB unit - a relative rarity these days. Also saw one the other day also. I could be wrong but perhaps IR have decided to pull a number of jap units for heavy maintenance for the summer.

LHBs for the last number of years for whatever reason have been used only as 4 or 6 carriage units, and IR's sudden preference to step these up to 8 cars does point to a lack of fleet availability in the other dart classes

LXFlyer · 12-07-2012 5:59pm

markpb wrote: »

Is that relevant?

If IR believe they can't fill an 8 car train in the evening peak, does that mean that all DARTs will be 4 cars for the summer?

I think it's a point worth making, in terms of putting it into context.

As I said I suspect this move has far more to do with cost cutting than anything else, faced with the large subsidy cuts. People can complain about "bean counters" but the company as with the other public sector bodies are faced with a serious funding shortfall.

Personally I believe that the company are nearing the point where they need to consider whether they can continue operating the full current timetable.

While some people may decide not to use the DART due to the changes, I would say any revenue lost as a result would pale into insignificance compared with the cost savings from halving the electricity intake of a set out all day.

Not good news I'm afraid, but I doubt this is the worst that we will see.

Captain Chaos · 12-07-2012 6:06pm

Millem wrote: »

Was out in Killiney today and saw an 8 car LHB unit - a relative rarity these days. Also saw one the other day also. I could be wrong but perhaps IR have decided to pull a number of jap units for heavy maintenance for the summer.

LHBs for the last number of years for whatever reason have been used only as 4 or 6 carriage units, and IR's sudden preference to step these up to 8 cars does point to a lack of fleet availability in the other dart classes

I was thinking that myself. For the past 3 weeks there are at least 2 8 car LHB sets in operation each day. Up to that point the LHBs were always in 6 car sets even at weekends. The Jap sets would drop to 4 at weekends.

It does look like a lack of servicable Jap sets to me and they are trying to make up the difference with longer LHB sets.

Millem · 12-07-2012 6:29pm

if the lack of capacity on current services is the product of poor planning rather than a summer rationalisation I would be astonished. With (theoretically) a LHB fleet of 154 carriages plus jap units and the mothballed spaniards it would be very surprising that IR were having trouble with fleet availability.

I'd say penny pinching and heavy maintenance on 3-4 jap units underpins the rationalised capacity over the last couple of weeks.

Alsthoms for a shock return anyone?

Captain Chaos · 12-07-2012 6:45pm

Millem wrote: »

Alsthoms for a shock return anyone?

Not a hope, they haven't turned a wheel in months perhaps a year since there was a bit of movement around the depot. There is a set abandoned in Inchicore for a few years now. Assuming there were even fit for service there would need to be a lot of driver re-familiarisation trips to re-qualify on them. Too much time, effort and cost.

Wiki says they are to be sold off/put up for sale this year along with 2700 DMUs.

Millem · 12-07-2012 7:27pm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Millem wrote: »

Alsthoms for a shock return anyone?

Not a hope, they haven't turned a wheel in months perhaps a year since there was a bit of movement around the depot. There is a set abandoned in Inchicore for a few years now. Assuming there were even fit for service there would need to be a lot of driver re-familiarisation trips to re-qualify on them. Too much time, effort and cost.

Wiki says they are to be sold off/put up for sale this year along with 2700 DMUs.

Sorry I meant to put a smiley after my Alsthom comment there! I did a thesis on IR and met with a senior IR figure. He said they should never have been bought and suffer from small fleet syndrome (re availability and expensiveness of spares due to their economies of scale). They are serviceable though (if defects fixed) but realistically won't run again as there is no need to run such a small subfleet when there are plenty of japs and LHBs about.

IR optimistically believes that they can find a buyer. I would have my doubts - gauge and previous service history being the big drawbacks.

Likelihood is that the 8200s will go the way of the MK3s and 2700s and rot.

Last time I checked the 8200 at inchicore has been split in 2 and both parts of the train are parked beside each other on parallel lines and facing the same direction. (both cabs facing same way)

Shame really

CIE · 12-07-2012 9:19pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The point is running 4 cars is significantly cheaper than running 8 in terms of electricity used.

While I have some sympathy with the DART passengers above, they are only experiencing what Maynooth line passengers have for years.

The reality is that subsidies are being cut and withdrawn and the only way to deal with this is to cut costs. This is one element of this programme I would imagine.

"Significantly" cheaper instead of marginally so? How much current are the EMUs drawing in that case? If they aren't burning out their traction motors, they have to be in decent shape. Forcing passengers to be stuffed into a smaller space will be perhaps more detrimental for revenue than having enough space on the train.

Cookie_Monster · 12-07-2012 10:18pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Every commuter service has a huge drop in numbers in June-August, Christmas, Easter and mid term weeks as schools knock off and people take off for holidays and that. It would be closer to 25% of a drop taking schools into account.

well the feedback on this thread would suggest otherwise and even if it was 25% how does a 50% reduction in capacity fir with that?

lxflyer wrote: »

The point is running 4 cars is significantly cheaper than running 8 in terms of electricity used.

how much cheaper?
I doubt it's cheaper at all to be perfectly honest. Some more mass to accelerate is all. Never mind the additional staffing costs of splitting and re-coupling costs which last year was given as a reason to alway run six or eight carriages off peak, too costly to bother splitting them for minute leccie savings...

Losty Dublin · 12-07-2012 10:29pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

well the feedback on this thread would suggest otherwise and even if it was 25% how does a 50% reduction in capacity fir with that?

What feedback? A few anecdotal posters and a few posts from people who don't use the Dart isn't feedback. Everybody knows that commuter traffic drops big time when schools etc are off; buses, Luas and car traffic are no different.

Captain Chaos · 12-07-2012 11:06pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

What feedback? A few anecdotal posters and a few posts from people who don't use the Dart isn't feedback. Everybody knows that commuter traffic drops big time when schools etc are off; buses, Luas and car traffic are no different.

I get 14 DARTs per week at all times of the day, and I can say that between the hours of 7am-10am and 1600-1900 Mon Fri a 4 car DART does not cut it regardless of time of year. It actually makes station stops longer as people have to fight their way in and out of carriages. I have seen many people left on the platform at Harmonstown and Killester in the morning because there was no room on the trains. It's like back in 2003 and 4 when I was going to college, it was every person for themselves on the DARTs in the mornings.

Road traffic drops off big time with the schools off but DART traffic, not so much. Off peak times yeah, there is a drop, but peak times are still more or less the same.

Cookie_Monster · 12-07-2012 11:56pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

What feedback? A few anecdotal posters and a few posts from people who don't use the Dart isn't feedback. Everybody knows that commuter traffic drops big time when schools etc are off; buses, Luas and car traffic are no different.

as opposed to your pulled out of thin air percentages. people left on platforms is hardly anecdotal.

CIE · 13-07-2012 8:42am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

What feedback? A few anecdotal posters and a few posts from people who don't use the Dart isn't feedback. Everybody knows that commuter traffic drops big time when schools etc are off; buses, Luas and car traffic are no different.

"Big time" as in exactly half? People don't stop going to work during the summer, and I don't think that many people are unemployed in the Dublin area; those that are out of work may use the DART just as heavily while on a work search (going in person still beats trying to apply online after all).

Also, have people stopped going to the seaside during the summer as well? When schools are off, schoolchildren and young adults do have that time to spare during the week to go to seaside resorts and DART serves several of those; since a lot of bus service to/from such resort towns has been curtailed (especially on the south side), the DART is now the primary non-auto means to get there, and chopping its capacity neatly in half with passengers left on the platform means more cars on the N11, Howth Road et cetera.

steamengine · 13-07-2012 9:13am

A four carriage DART at peak time is about as useful as a rolled out condom which has been chopped in two !!!

schemingbohemia · 13-07-2012 11:46am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I get 14 DARTs per week at all times of the day, and I can say that between the hours of 7am-10am and 1600-1900 Mon Fri a 4 car DART does not cut it regardless of time of year. It actually makes station stops longer as people have to fight their way in and out of carriages. I have seen many people left on the platform at Harmonstown and Killester in the morning because there was no room on the trains. It's like back in 2003 and 4 when I was going to college, it was every person for themselves on the DARTs in the mornings.

Road traffic drops off big time with the schools off but DART traffic, not so much. Off peak times yeah, there is a drop, but peak times are still more or less the same.

This I think is the main point - the knock-on effect of people having to sprint up one end of the platform, squeezing on, at each stop an additional minute adds up. My Dart the other morning was 10 minutes late which rarely happens otherwise.

mtjm · 13-07-2012 1:29pm

I e-mailed IR about this and got this reply

Thank you for your e-mail 13th July 2012,
As a result of the downturn in the economy passenger numbers on DART services have reduced quite significantly, this coupled with increased energy costs has put extreme financial pressures on our services. Iarnród Éireann is committed to retaining the current service levels which we provide to our customers even during these tough financial times however we would be unable to achieve this unless we can significantly reduce our operating costs in line with falling passenger numbers.
An extensive review of all of our services has been carried out and we have identified services where the combined standing and seating capacity enables the train to reduce in size to four carriage trains. It is accepted that some services which are operated by 4 carriage trains are quite busy however we must maximise the carrying capacity of these services as the only alternative is to double the operating costs when increasing the train size for a very small number of passengers.
All trains which have been reduced in size have adequate capacity for the number of passengers travelling when taking into account standing and seated capacity, indeed it is accepted worldwide practice that suburban railway services are heavily loaded at peak times as this usually only occurs for a short period of time when the train is approaching its busy central stations as is the case on the DART Network. I understand customer preference would be to have larger size trains as this provides more comfort on their journey however in these harsh economic times this is something which although desirable is simply not sustainable. Iarnród Éireann will continue to monitor the situation and if it becomes apparent that the current four carriage trains cannot carry the number of passengers wishing to travel we will at that point increase the train in size, in the interim I hope you can appreciate that this action has been taken to ensure continuity of the current DART service levels as the only other alternative to reduce cost would result in service cancellations.
Regards
DART Customer Service

bk · 13-07-2012 3:11pm

That is fair enough, however if it is leaving passengers behind on platforms, then that isn't acceptable.

I'd rather see them close the Western Rail Corridor or reduce some intercity services then do this. Mass transit around Dublin is far more vital to the Irelands economy then things like the WRC and intercity.

I feel they are targeting the completely wrong area for cut backs. I wonder if Irish Rail have given every department a 10% (for example) budget cut, rather then prioritising services and cutting the less important services more deeply.

It also sounds like the current fleet make up means then can only chose 8 or 4 carriage sets, rather then having more flexibility to chose 5 or 6 carriage sets. That seems like quiet a mistake on IR's part

lil5 · 13-07-2012 3:28pm

Something had to give for the 'free' WiFi ...

bk · 13-07-2012 3:46pm

Well one thing I will say, I give big respect to Irish Rail for their email above.

No excuses, just clear, precise communication of what has happened and why they are doing it.

I might disagree with it, but good job on communicating it, very refreshing.

end of the road · 13-07-2012 4:00pm

bk wrote: »

I'd rather see them close the Western Rail Corridor

i'd agree with you on that but in saying that after 106000000 being spend on its reopening would IE be willing to do it?

bk wrote: »

reduce some intercity services

so take away services from one group of people to keep the same service levels on the dart? is that realy the answer? how about management and other senior staff taking a pay cut. fair enough if absolutely nobody is using some services things should be juggled around (as long as it isn't services to rosslare which are more infrequent then everywhere else so don't need any cuts)

bk wrote: »

Mass transit around Dublin is far more vital to the Irelands economy then things like the WRC and intercity.

maybe but its no excuse to take away services from one group of people. if their not being used at all then fair enough i suppose.

bk wrote: »

It also sounds like the current fleet make up means then can only chose 8 or 4 carriage sets, rather then having more flexibility to chose 5 or 6 carriage sets. That seems like quiet a mistake on IR's part

absolutely agree.

bk · 13-07-2012 4:29pm

end of the road wrote: »

i'd agree with you on that but in saying that after 106000000 being spend on its reopening would IE be willing to do it?

It might not be politically popular but would be the right thing to do. No point wasting 3 million a year for just 8 passengers per train at a subsidy of €80 per passenger!! Madness

I've no doubt that this wasted three million would easily cover the extra cost of electricity for the extra dart carriages.

end of the road wrote: »

so take away services from one group of people to keep the same service levels on the dart? is that realy the answer? how about management and other senior staff taking a pay cut. fair enough if absolutely nobody is using some services things should be juggled around (as long as it isn't services to rosslare which are more infrequent then everywhere else so don't need any cuts)

I agree, I think there is an awful lot of fat to be cut from elsewhere in IR. In fact I feel this is a political move on IR's part to make people feel the pain of the cuts in subsidies to Irish Rail, so they can blame it on the government.

I think it might be part of a strategy to try and stop the cuts in subsidies to Irish Rail.

CIE · 13-07-2012 7:25pm

bk wrote: »

That is fair enough, however if it is leaving passengers behind on platforms, then that isn't acceptable.

I'd rather see them close the Western Rail Corridor or reduce some intercity services than do this

The WRC's costs for a year would not cover DART operations for a month; way different scope. Playing political football (and thus endorsing the bad transport policies of the government) will not cure whatever disease IE currently suffers from.

And if you really want IE subsidy cut, then lobby for increased railfreight. Unless of course you enjoy HGVs shaking the ground right outside your doorstep.

bk · 14-07-2012 12:47pm

CIE wrote: »

The WRC's costs for a year would not cover DART operations for a month; way different scope. Playing political football (and thus endorsing the bad transport policies of the government) will not cure whatever disease IE currently suffers from.

I didn't say the WRC subsidy would cover the full costs of running the DART.

I said it would cover the cost of electricity of the four extra carriages for the summer months.

CIE wrote: »

And if you really want IE subsidy cut, then lobby for increased railfreight. Unless of course you enjoy HGVs shaking the ground right outside your doorstep.

Huh? How would increased rail freight cut IR's subsidy. Rail Freight is much more expensive to do then road freight and requires a big subsidy itself.

miller50841 · 14-07-2012 12:51pm

RoryMurphyJnr wrote: »

Can anyone tell me why the 5pm dart from Pearse to greystones now only has 4 carriages?

Resulting in most passengers standing the whole way home not to mention the heat.
This right at the start of rush.
Ta
R

Hi don't be on it much but living alongside the tracks I do see trains at 10/11/12 at night with 8 carriages and empty seams very stupid hope the commuters get onto them about it

CIE · 15-07-2012 12:43am

bk wrote: »

I didn't say the WRC subsidy would cover the full costs of running the DART.

I said it would cover the cost of electricity of the four extra carriages for the summer months

Just what is that cost? It's minimal. No need to wipe out one service where it does not really benefit another but instead goes into someone's pocket at IE.

bk wrote: »

Huh? How would increased rail freight cut IR's subsidy. Rail Freight is much more expensive to do then road freight and requires a big subsidy itself.

No, that's a lie. Railfreight is self-supporting and always has been. Do you think that all the railfreight service over in the USA, Canada and other countries is owned by the government? Even short lines with small volumes are profitable in such countries. You can't criticise government corruption in one area while giving a nod to it in another. If railfreight is "more expensive" in Ireland, then it is the government, who controls all transport (infrastructure and policy that is), making it so, and if they get out of the way then a private company could make a go of it and make a very good living of it.

Millem · 15-07-2012 1:18am

Rail freight is one of only 2 profitable operations at irish rail. The other is rosslare europort. Rail freight made an €800k profit in 2010

Irish Rail - 5pm DART from Pearse now only 4 carriages long

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