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Gender issues in After Hours - Your feedback requested.

  • 25-07-2012 10:38am
    #1
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,945 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    It has been noted that threads involving gender issues in AH are creating problems for some of our posters.

    This is something the moderators have been discussing at length. We are trying to improve the manner in which discussions take place. The idea is to be as inclusive as possible.

    Traditionally we run our own occasional feedback threads in after hours. Try to feel the pulse of the forum in this manner.

    However we feel there is a benefit to running a thread about this in the feedback forum, not on home turf so to speak. We want your feedback.

    Sexism and dismissive attitudes seem to be among the highest complaints. Again, this is on both sides so we want to hear from both sides.

    As we want to make sure we get the balance right we are looking to you to help show us the way.

    Where do you think this could be improved?

    Frequently threads of this type are used to point out individual posters or posts. Please use the report post function or PM a mod for that rather than highlighting that in here.

    We are hoping to gain some insight here rather than have a witch hunt so please try and keep the feedback useful and the thread even tempered.
    Post edited by Shield on


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Comments

  • #2
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,069 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Tbh, I have never really noticed a problem on gender related threads. At least no more of a problem than is evident in any other type of thread. Some people are just dicks, and some threads/topics happen to attract more of them than others. I don't see how it can be remedied other than by dealing with those threads/posters on a case-by-case basis.

    Having just read through some of the posts in that 'stag party' thread, I think that rather than there being an issue with sexism or whatever, there is a wider issue of some downright nasty people taking part in threads in general.


  • #3
    Gongoozler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,263 ✭✭✭Gongoozler


    I, as a female, don't have any issues with it, and fail to see the issue others talk about regarding sexism. Both sides are around about equally culpable when it comes to sexism and generalisations in AH. I have to say I agree that most of the generalisations are true. I can see how it's frustrating for anyone to have a generalisation made against their gender, because it automatically includes them in it, when they obviously feel it isn't correct about themselves. Though I would find a number of opinions on Boards.ie and from other people IRL equally as frustrating, as, in the nature of opinions, they are different to my own experiences and my opinions.

    I think people need to stop taking things so personally.


  • #4
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Having just read through some of the posts in that 'stag party' thread, I think that rather than there being an issue with sexism or whatever, there is a wider issue of some downright nasty people taking part in threads in general.

    It was mental how that escalated to people posting her pics and phone number in After Hours so quickly. Ugly, bitter, bullying behaviour.


  • #5
    Cardinal Richelieu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu


    Noah Incalculable Barometer wrote: »
    It was mental how that escalated to people posting her pics and phone number in After Hours so quickly. Ugly, bitter, bullying behaviour.

    Hopefully the Garda will be alerted to some of the unsavory posters who seem to use "its only a joke defence" to say some pretty vile things in that thread.


  • #6
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    dr.bollocko wrote: »
    It has been noted that threads involving gender issues in AH are creating problems for some of our posters.

    This is something the moderators have been discussing at length. We are trying to improve the manner in which (...........) and the thread even tempered.

    Apart from the odd gobshite I think the level of noise in complaints far outstrips that of the "sexists". In the last two or three threads where the issue came up, when I asked for specific examples they usually morphed into something other than was initially claimed.

    When there was clear trolling ('Irish women are...' etc) I asked if the post had been reported. 'No'. Why? "nothing would be done". How do you know? 'I suppose I just thought...'.


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  • #7
    Esoteric_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,255 ✭✭✭✭Esoteric_


    To be honest, I don't see what the big deal is. Sexist jokes happen everywhere, by both men and women. I agree that they're almost constant in AH, but I think that unless they're referring to specific posters (for example, a person responding to a female poster, telling her to get back in the kitchen or whatever), just leave it be. Sweeping generalisations are idiotic and I doubt many people take them seriously. It's when a poster makes a sexist comment directly towards another poster that things need to stop.


    Tbh the only thing that annoys me about the forum is the number of rape jokes. A thread about a man being raped was recently closed because of this, yet I have never seen a thread about a woman being raped be closed because of victim blaming statements that idiots like to post for attention. That's really the only thing that písses me off. The problem with that is, it's mostly female rape cases in the news, therefore mostly female rape cases posted about on AH, and it sickens me seeing the men making so many victim blaming comments. Some of them are absolutely disgusting.


    Like my_name_is_URL said, sexism isn't a massive problem. The main problem is the amount of nasty, bítchy people using AH.


  • #8
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Don't like it? Don't read it or contribute to it. Its a hard world. There is always something to dislike on AH at any given moment (well the first few pages) quite why sexism/sexist/sexy behaviour is being singled out beats me. What about all those 800 years/NornIron/Brit/Yank/Israel threads full of hate ignorance and irrational thinking? Is anyone going to worry about them? Nope.


  • #9
    Esoteric_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,255 ✭✭✭✭Esoteric_


    mike65 wrote: »
    Don't like it? Don't read it or contribute to it. Its a hard world. There is always something to dislike on AH at any given moment (well the first few pages) quite why sexism/sexist/sexy behaviour is being singled out beats me. What about tall those 800 years/NornIron/Brit/Yank/Israel threads full of hate ignorance and irrational thinking? Is anyone going to worry about them? Nope.

    That's quite an uninformed attitude to take.

    I would assume the reason that sexism is coming up as a topic for discussion is because there are a lot of women on boards. When it comes to Brits, Americans, Israelis and such, there are (presumably, as this is an Irish site) a lot less of them on the site. Therefore, there won't be many people kicking up a stink about that, but there are a large proportion of female users on the site. Obviously if a lot of women are complaining, boards will want to fix it since the site hardly wants to lose members.

    And frankly, I'm not offended by any sexist joke, or rape joke, or anything like that. It's the internet, not srs bznz. The fact of that matter is though, if there is a lot of sexism against women, it's only right that it be sorted out.


  • #10
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    LyndaMcL wrote: »
    That's quite an uninformed attitude to take.

    I would assume the reason that sexism is coming up as a topic for discussion is because there are a lot of women on boards. When it comes to Brits, Americans, Israelis and such, there are (presumably, as this is an Irish site) a lot less of them on the site. Therefore, there won't be many people kicking up a stink about that, but there are a large proportion of female users on the site. Obviously if a lot of women are complaining, boards will want to fix it since the site hardly wants to lose members.

    Right so numbers matter more than behaviour, okay
    LyndaMcL wrote: »
    And frankly, I'm not offended by any sexist joke, or rape joke, or anything like that. It's the internet, not srs bznz. The fact of that matter is though, if there is a lot of sexism against women, it's only right that it be sorted out.

    This is the internet though and you deserve a slap with a big fish (Monty Python style) for typing "srs bznz"


  • #11
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    I found the topic on is my housemate a slag or a prostitute pretty distasteful.
    And the way people casually throw around the words 'rape' is disgusting and childish referencing things as 'ghey' is not very grown up.


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  • #12
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Two points.

    First is that I do think there is somewhat of a laddish mentally in after hours more so than outright sexism. Whether you feel its an issue to be tackled I don't know... I can't say I've seen much more than the chain her to the sink comments.

    Secondly and much more importantly..who the hell made Dr bollocko a category moderator and why the hell did I not get that memo


  • #13
    phasers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,159 ✭✭✭✭phasers


    AckwelFoley wrote: »
    Two points.

    First is that I do think there is somewhat of a laddish mentally in after hours more so than outright sexism. Whether you feel its an issue to be tackled I don't know... I can't say I've seen much more than the chain her to the sink comments.

    Secondly and much more importantly..who the hell made Dr bollocko a category moderator and why the hell did I not get that memo
    I wholeheartedly endorse this post.

    Honestly I've never seen any kind of huge sexism epidemic in AH, I see a few kitchen comments thrown about but very rarely directed at other posters. Like AckwelFoley says, it's just a lads' thing. I've never seen anything malicious behind it.


    Congrats on the promotion Doc! Only a year after my nomination too...


  • #14
    Esoteric_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,255 ✭✭✭✭Esoteric_


    mike65 wrote: »
    Right so numbers matter more than behaviour, okay

    Did I say that?

    What I said is that, as there are larger numbers of Irish women on this site than people of other nationalities, sexism will be picked up on more, because more people will complain about that than about other types of smart árse comments. I didn't say anything about it being right. I just said it how it is.

    :rolleyes:


  • #15
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    AckwelFoley wrote: »
    .............

    Secondly and much more importantly..who the hell made Dr bollocko a category moderator and why the hell did I not get that memo

    While the hieroglyphics of Egypt record a great many things, they tend to avoid failures, disasters and calamity. Take from that what ye will.....


  • #16
    Where To
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭Where To


    There will always be a few idiots that take things too far, no matter how strict or lenient the boundaries of discussion are they will break them eventually.

    As long as they are dealt with there's not really a lot more can be done is there?*



    *although we could possibly ban wimminz from the internet:P


  • #17
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,771 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    The kind of remarks that have caused this discussion are generally from a type of poster who has no significant thought processes, they are just spouting populist nonsense and repeating stuff they see and hear. There are sexist remarks, but there are also bigoted remarks about - as Mike65 said - a dozen other social groupings.

    What is more worrying is the kind of response that LyndaMcL has given - Brit/American/Israeli remarks are not a problem because there are not so many of those groupings on Boards! In the same way that she obviously does not 'get it', so there are people who will never see anything wrong with making sexist/racist etc remarks, they see themselves as just 'telling it as it is'.

    Either AH can be left to those who want to share their gutter press opinions, have a laugh and engage in the kind of discussions that are causing offence, and let everyone else keep out if they don't want to be offended.

    Or it can continue to be cleaned up and formalised into a general kind of 'off topic' forum where discussions, both serious and humorous, can be had within strict boundaries of respect for all social groups.

    At the moment it seems to be trying to do both, and annoying both sides.

    The entire site has changed considerably over the last number of years, including AH. I think has improved, but maybe AH should be left as a bit of a wilderness for the use of those people who don't want the formalised approach of the rest of the site.

    It is arguable that the people giving offense should be educated, but maybe there should be a place for people who don't want to be educated.


  • #18
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    I think it is needed (AH) for some light relief from other topics.

    The judgement line between what is acceptable and what is unacceptable in this situation is always going to be contentious as the After hours format allows a certain type of politically incorrect comment. It is a very small step from this type of comment to allowing comments that could be genuinely racist for example. It is fact that people have different tolerance in terms of accepting politically incorrect comment and as has been already pointed out society in general is lowering its moral standards (the press is a good example of this).


  • #19
    Esoteric_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,255 ✭✭✭✭Esoteric_


    What is more worrying is the kind of response that LyndaMcL has given - Brit/American/Israeli remarks are not a problem because there are not so many of those groupings on Boards! In the same way that she obviously does not 'get it', so there are people who will never see anything wrong with making sexist/racist etc remarks, they see themselves as just 'telling it as it is'.

    As I made clear in my last post, I never said and never meant that comments against other nationalities are not a problem. They are. What I said was that comments against women are more seen because there are more women on the site reporting them than there are other nationalities reporting comments against them.

    I never said that it's not a problem. :-/ Any form of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc, is wrong.


  • #20
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,771 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    LyndaMcL wrote: »
    As I made clear in my last post, I never said and never meant that comments against other nationalities are not a problem. They are. What I said was that comments against women are more seen because there are more women on the site reporting them than there are other nationalities reporting comments against them.

    I never said that it's not a problem. :-/ Any form of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc, is wrong.

    I don't think you made it very clear, it was a little ambiguous, however I can see what you intended to say and I apologise for my misleading response.


  • #21
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,438 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    By its very nature, AH is a kind of a mish mash of all topics from every aspect of life, and therefore will attract differing opinions.....especially when you consider the amount of traffic it gets.
    I think the problem is different people see AH in different ways.

    There are probably 3 main types of people who frequent AH...
      Those who see it as a kind of free-for-all forum to take the píss out of everything.
      Those who see it as a forum to talk about all manner of subjects but want to engage in serious discussions.
      Those in between points one and two. They like to engage in serious discussions in AH but also enjoy the light-hearted side of it all. I think this makes up the majority of posters in AH.


    I know creating more fora is not the goal on Boards, and in fact the opposite is true.....it seems to be actively slimming down. And this is a good thing as there are good arguments for saying Boards is too cluttered. But I think AH is the one place where an additional forum would possibly be a good thing. It could be split into 2 sub-forums:
      A totally light-hearted forum where *almost* anything goes, and taking the mick is the norm.
    2. A more serious forum where serious discussion can take place on all manner of subjects.


    I know people say "if you want a serious discussion go to Humanities" but I don't think the Humanities forum is quite right either.

    Having said all that though I take on board the argument against splitting up AH and I can see the reasoning behind it.
    Other than that though I can't see a way of resolving it.


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  • #22
    Esoteric_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,255 ✭✭✭✭Esoteric_


    looksee wrote: »
    I don't think you made it very clear, it was a little ambiguous, however I can see what you intended to say and I apologise for my misleading response.


    I don't mean my first post. I know I wrote that badly, and I clarified what I meant in a later post.

    I need to just learn to edit. :rolleyes:


  • #23
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    I think there are more people willing to argue against the outright blatant sexist remarks and attitudes than there was before.
    It is necessary to have these discussions in AH, rather than clamping down on them and locking the thread straight away before it has taken shape. Even threads that are trollish in their title and OP have turned out interesting discussions after involvement. But I guess it can be one of the most difficult topics to moderate. I think on thread warnings by Mods such as Micky Dolenzs are fair, not targetting specific posters at first but reminding the community that it can easily steer into sexist territory if not kept in check.


  • #24
    mackg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭mackg


    There was Dark Crystal's thread recently where this was discussed at length. it was pointed out to me that there are many female posters who no longer post in AH because they didn't like the stick they received in regards sexism.

    I would hate to see posters being bullied out of a forum but at the end of the day if the attitudes they took offence to don't break the rules then maybe the forum just isn't for them, if the posts that bothered them were against the charter then the solution is to report the posts and the poster will have to stop or be banned.

    If you're not going to report the posts then there is no point complaining on-thread about the problem in the hope that a mod stumbles across it.

    I would be interested to know what the ratio of complaints within AH to actual reported posts is? What's the point in having a process for dealing with these type of issues if no one uses it?

    In summation as I said on that thread, if people actually gave it a solid month of reporting all posts with this sexist attitude and let the mods see the full picture they would have a better idea the extent of the problem and whether further measures need to be taken.

    Personally I like AH the way it is and tend not to get bothered about stuff I read there, some people are idiots- leave them at it. If they go too far report the posts, problem solved.


  • #25
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,045 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    In the last year I've found myself posting almost never in AH unless it was on some hot button issue and even then, I typically avoid the place now. To me it seems like the forum has been overtaken with more noise than signal; perhaps a part of that is how often users are being moderated. It's akin actually to most message boards, where there is an overwhelming amount of activity, all of which is unmoderated more or less. This plays into how much moderator activity there is available in comparison to the amount of traffic, and the self-regulation of the users to report offensive posts. For my own part I've felt that posts I've reported aren't regularly acted upon, especially posts containing fallibly bigoted statements.

    I'd advise any change in direction leans more in favor of a harder line/more civility than anything. It will surely piss off the few offenders that aggravate it but for the rest it will make the place a better read.


  • #26
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Overheal wrote: »
    In the last year I've found myself posting almost never in AH unless it was on some hot button issue and even then, I typically avoid the place now. To me it seems like the forum has been overtaken with more noise than signal; perhaps a part of that is how often users are being moderated. It's akin actually to most message boards, where there is an overwhelming amount of activity, all of which is unmoderated more or less. This plays into how much moderator activity there is available in comparison to the amount of traffic, and the self-regulation of the users to report offensive posts. For my own part I've felt that posts I've reported aren't regularly acted upon, especially posts containing fallibly bigoted statements.

    I'd advise it leans more in favor of a harder line/more civility than anything. It will surely piss off the few offenders that aggravate it but for the rest it will make the place a better read.

    Overheal my American friend AH has not changed.
    The posters have. I have spent most of my time since I j joined as a member there but I would say if I posted there a dozen times in the last year most of those posts were in the last few days. You grow out of it. It's sort of like college..great at the time but you tend to tire of it.


    I'm on boards once a week but tend to use the other forums as an information portal.


  • #27
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Overheal wrote: »
    In the last year I've found myself posting almost never in AH unless it was on some hot button issue and even then, I typically avoid the place now. To me it seems like the forum has been overtaken with more noise than signal; perhaps a part of that is how often users are being moderated. It's akin actually to most message boards, where there is an overwhelming amount of activity, all of which is unmoderated more or less. This plays into how much moderator activity there is available in comparison to the amount of traffic, and the self-regulation of the users to report offensive posts. For my own part I've felt that posts I've reported aren't regularly acted upon, especially posts containing fallibly bigoted statements.

    I'd advise any change in direction leans more in favor of a harder line/more civility than anything. It will surely piss off the few offenders that aggravate it but for the rest it will make the place a better read.


    While its good that you reported posts, the fact is that just because you considered it actionable doesn't mean that it was.

    AH seems much the same to me now as when I joined. As the discussions tend to be cyclical, it can get a bit wearisome, but thats the way of all "General" discussion boards.


  • #28
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    This seems to be focusing on jokes, which are just jokes. A thread on After Hours (Why don't women go on shooting rampages?) was closed just now with a link to this thread. It was funny IMO and the jokes were good-natured. I think it's a pity such a thread gets closed but the ones about Irish women being hideous-looking and right bitches and how life is easy for women and hard for men etc, have been kept open. The focus seems to be on the wrong stuff IMO.

    To those who say they can't see the above type of animosity and that there are equal amounts of threads full of vitriol towards men - blind and/or obtuse.

    "Don't like it? Don't read it!" - stupid soundbite. How about such threads get clamped down on in the first place?


  • #29
    FatherLen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭FatherLen


    After being linked to this thread after the closure of one in ah because of comments made by user(myself included), i decided to give my outlook.
    I feel that the vast majority of users in AH that have used "sexist" comments, have used them in jest and have never intended offense to anyone.
    AH is filled with broad generalizations about every group and gender and are always talked about in a humorous environment and again never intended to offend.
    I in no way condone sexism or any stereotypes or generalizations but in the context of AH i feel it is just a joke. Even in AH a joke can go too far as we seen in the recent batman shootings thread and i agree that those jokes were in incredibly bad taste but the vast majority of gender based comments usually tend to stick only in the first or second page of a thread and are then forgotten. If these jokes were intended to offend or demoralize users they would be rampant throughout threads.

    i would like to finish this post with an apology to any user that has ever taken offense to any of my comments and would like to reiterate my previous point that they are all just in jest.


  • #30
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Noah Incalculable Barometer wrote: »

    It was mental how that escalated to people posting her pics and phone number in After Hours so quickly. Ugly, bitter, bullying behaviour.

    Didn't stay in the thread too long but if that's the case, a permanent site ban should be enforced for stuff like that.


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  • #31
    mackg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭mackg


    Onixx wrote: »
    This seems to be focusing on jokes, which are just jokes. A thread on After Hours (Why don't women go on shooting rampages?) was closed just now with a link to this thread. It was funny IMO and the jokes were good-natured. I think it's a pity such a thread gets closed but the ones about Irish women being hideous-looking and right bitches and how life is easy for women and hard for men etc, have been kept open. The focus seems to be on the wrong stuff IMO.

    To those who say they can't see the above type of animosity and that there are equal amounts of threads full of vitriol towards men - blind and/or obtuse.

    "Don't like it? Don't read it!" - stupid soundbite. How about such threads get clamped down on in the first place?

    I'd say that was closed because the mods aren't allowing anything slide until they have made a decision how to progress. Or as it has been said here, if those posts were reported.


  • #32
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,771 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    i would like to finish this post with an apology to any user that has ever taken offense to any of my comments and would like to reiterate my previous point that they are all just in jest.

    Missing the point. It doesn't matter if they are 'in jest' - the fact that you find something inherently funny in (in this case) women is the point. Once may be a joke, endlessly is bullying. And even once is only a joke if you are not on the receiving end.

    It doesn't mean that everyone has to be po-faced - there can be humour and joking but you don't know who is at the other keyboard.

    A jolly, throwaway remark about ugly women who shouldn't be seen out in public (not saying you said that, just an example) is not going to improve the day of a young woman with image issues. It might just be the last straw, but the poster will never know.

    This is a world away from slagging someone who goes out in pyjamas. They have a choice about what they wear, they don't have a choice about their face.


  • #33
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    looksee wrote: »
    Missing the point. It doesn't matter if they are 'in jest' - the fact that you find something inherently funny in (in this case) women is the point. Once may be a joke, endlessly is bullying. And even once is only a joke if you are not on the receiving end.

    Don't think he's really missing the point. I think the intent is very much a valid point. I've been on the receiving end (as you put it) of jokes about Dubs, the Irish, men, etc etc etc.

    When they were made genuinely in jest they were taken as such. The intent matters. If no harsh intent is intended and someone chooses to disregard this and take offense anyway, then the problem is with the jestee, not the jester.
    IMO etc...

    =======
    =======

    It's been said, but yet again to add my voice to sentiment, 'trolling', 'personal abuse', 'hatred towards either gender' are all prohibited by the charter. If you feel one of these is going on, then report the post and the Mods, like with all reported posts, will deal with it on a case by case basis which will then be subject to the normal processes and appraisal.

    If my memory serves me right I've reported posts in the past where I felt something crossed the line from 'harmless banter' into 'trolling', 'personal abuse' or 'hatred'. Some have been dealt with, and the post actioned, some haven't, where I presume whatever Mod reviewed the reported post didn't agree with my interpretation, which is fair enough.

    Other than a general reminder for people to read the charter, to report posts they feel violate it, and to 'not be dicks' I don't think anything else can or should be done.


  • #34
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Also can have some notification/acknowledgement when we report posts upheld/dismissed - atleast then we'd know that reporting posts is worthwhile!


  • #35
    Sea Filly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭Sea Filly


    It became apparent to me from reading that thread that nothing outside of the current system will really work. You're straying into the realm of censorship if you say "Group X cannot be slagged off". I find some people OTT in AH but hate censorship. So, people, just accept that there are dickheads in the world and keep reporting posts that you feel cross the line.


  • #36
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    The majority of what's posted in AH is fairly tongue in cheek, in any thread on any group in society there'll be one or two posters who take it too far, either trolling or just because they hold ridiculous views, and it's just up to others to report them, I've a suspicion they are considerably more likely to feed the trolls that hit "report post" though.


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  • #37
    Logical_Bear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 799 ✭✭✭Logical_Bear


    Noah Incalculable Barometer wrote: »
    It was mental how that escalated to people posting her pics and phone number in After Hours so quickly. Ugly, bitter, bullying behaviour.
    in fairness thats a lesson to people to not post personal sh1t up on the internet.

    Dont blame AH, blame the thick that gave information about herself.bet you she has locked her facebook account,twitter etc...


    a good test is to make sure you have no personal cr@p up on the interwebbz is to google yourself....

    apparently Im a local politician in the states and also work for a vet in canada!!!


  • #38
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,069 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Logical_Bear wrote: »
    in fairness thats a lesson to people to not post personal sh1t up on the internet.

    Dont blame AH, blame the thick that gave information about herself.bet you she has locked her facebook account,twitter etc...

    So it's okay for people to be abusive towards her, post her phone-numbers & pictures etc, and comment on the appearance of her children just because her personal profile on FB wasn't set to private? :confused:

    I don't know how people can honestly see that as being the case.

    I wonder how many people would have posted the vitriol they did in that thread; if they themselves did not have the element of 'anonymity' on their side.

    heh.. if Boards really wanted to crackdown on dickish behavior they could start by removing that particular privilege from users =p


  • #39
    Logical_Bear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 799 ✭✭✭Logical_Bear


    My name is URL wrote: »
    So it's okay for people to be abusive towards her, post her phone-numbers & pictures etc, and comment on the appearance of her children just because her personal profile on FB wasn't set to private? :confused:
    Yes it is.put yourself out there,expect the good and the bad.It's not my fault or your's that she doesnt know how to use the internet.

    and I wasnt abusive...I told her she had nice tits


  • #40
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    Logical_Bear wrote: »
    in fairness thats a lesson to people to not post personal sh1t up on the internet.

    Dont blame AH, blame the thick that gave information about herself.
    Ah now, you can say she was foolish, maybe even a tiny bit to blame, for making her details public, but the majority of the blame lies with those who spread her details around for the craic. Just because those details were there, doesn't mean anyone had a gun put to their head to post them on AH. Just acting the dick and possibly doing damage to the girl's life - no excuse for it


  • #41
    randylonghorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    strobe wrote: »
    The intent matters.
    Yes. Yes, I think it does matter. And sometimes it's easy to discern, and unfortunately, sometimes not so easy.

    I don't think I'm particularly sexist, in fact, I'm pretty sure I'm not, though I will accept that like most I can occasionally be found wanting as a result of lack of thought rather than actual underlying attitudes.

    I can and will tell a sexist joke though or make a sexist comment, out of pure mischief and / or to rise someone, and the women I know IRL are well used to me and will quickly put me in my place, and it's all just in fun.

    I'm a bit more cautious on the 'net; I'll still do it but I will judge my moment and the context, and will make it clear that I'm taking the piss.

    I'm very dubious though of posters who are one (or two) trick ponies who seem to take every opportunity to get a sly dig in, be it re: women, immigrants, gay people, whatever ... and then when challenged hide behind "it's AH!" and laugh it off as a joke and accuse everyone of being way too PC.

    And it's this type of low level trollery which is very difficult for the mods of any forum to deal with, but which can gradually set a tone for a forum which is quite unpleasant and unwelcoming for many.


    I think context matters too.

    Some threads are very light-hearted, the subject matter is light if not positively silly, people take the piss and no-one takes it too seriously.

    Other threads have a more serious intent, people want to start a genuine discussion about some element of current affairs, something that was in the news or whatever, in the context of this thread lets say about a woman who has been found to be unfairly dismissed from her job on the basis of gender.

    And ten AH hard men rush in to shout "sure she should never have been let out of the kitchen anyway!", and then sit back and congratulate themselves on their sparkling wit!

    And I find myself rolling my eyes and hoping that they'll cop on once their balls have dropped! :rolleyes:


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  • #42
    LoYL
    Closed Accounts Posts: 235 ✭✭LoYL


    Inclusive and balance. Why do you see these as virtues? The pendulum swung too far and it will only be restored to true equilibrium by letting the movement move.


  • #43
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    randylonghorn wrote: »
    Yes. Yes, I think it does matter. And sometimes it's easy to discern, and unfortunately, sometimes not so easy.

    I don't think I'm particularly sexist, in fact, I'm pretty sure I'm not, though I will accept that like most I can occasionally be found wanting as a result of lack of thought rather than actual underlying attitudes.

    I can and will tell a sexist joke though or make a sexist comment, out of pure mischief and / or to rise someone, and the women I know IRL are well used to me and will quickly put me in my place, and it's all just in fun.

    I'm a bit more cautious on the 'net; I'll still do it but I will judge my moment and the context, and will make it clear that I'm taking the piss.

    I'm very dubious though of posters who are one (or two) trick ponies who seem to take every opportunity to get a sly dig in, be it re: women, immigrants, gay people, whatever ... and then when challenged hide behind "it's AH!" and laugh it off as a joke and accuse everyone of being way too PC.

    And it's this type of low level trollery which is very difficult for the mods of any forum to deal with, but which can gradually set a tone for a forum which is quite unpleasant and unwelcoming for many.


    I think context matters too.

    Some threads are very light-hearted, the subject matter is light if not positively silly, people take the piss and no-one takes it too seriously.

    Other threads have a more serious intent, people want to start a genuine discussion about some element of current affairs, something that was in the news or whatever, in the context of this thread lets say about a woman who has been found to be unfairly dismissed from her job on the basis of gender.

    And ten AH hard men rush in to shout "sure she should never have been let out of the kitchen anyway!", and then sit back and congratulate themselves on their sparkling wit!

    And I find myself rolling my eyes and hoping that they'll cop on once their balls have dropped! :rolleyes:

    AH can be very harsh as well, was reading a thread today where somebody put in a witty first reply based on a Dave Allen joke, it was funny and a true charicature of giving directions in Ireland, but just not the time to post it. Oddly enough, the joke was based on reading the article linked to in the OP and importantly, letting it sink in. Most of the other initial replies obviously just jumped to conclusions.

    So, moral of the story, you can be correct in replying but still wrong, such are the nuances of AH!

    I'd agree, I've posted some sexist stuff, so out of place, I'd hope it would be taken as humour. With AH I generally don't take the first page of replies to seriously, let it settle down and take its course.

    You'll get the couple of posters who spout the usual crap in these type of threads. Just report as if there is a record of reports for the same stuff, it will help a mod come to a decision. Low level stuff can be hard to spot if you don't read every thread, they'll go under the radar if they aren't reported.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #44
    CodyJarrett
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 307 ✭✭CodyJarrett


    No offence to the mods, but whenever I've seen the issue of sexism in AH hit FB before, Admin have usually locked the thread and (correctly) stated that the moderators of AH do their best to stamp out overt and nasty examples of sexism whenever it occurs: so why do AH moderators feel the need to start this thread? Well obviously, something has driven them to it, and I wonder what that could be.

    There are hundreds of women that use AH on a regular basis. 30% or so of the forum's regulars are females and yet the only women complaining about the forum's moderation of so called sexist posts are the same nine or ten users time and time again and so, it's high time that a certain element either got with what AH is about or just stopped posting there, as they are ruining the forum for everyone else. The same faces only seem to show up when there is trouble (of the gender battle type, that is) and who will just stir some up when there isn't, as they wish there was.

    Moderate the 'back to the kitchen' stuff if you want, but we all know that when ignored, that stuff goes away all by itself anyway as it's quite juvenile and boring. What really needs to be addressed by moderators though, is the feigned offence posts and those who will use AH threads to have a negative rant about the forum's attitude to sexism . Why are they allowed to do that in the middle of threads? Javaboy was always great for jumping on that type of derailment.

    Strange, as these users who seem to proclaim AH as a no-go area for women, still partake in the amateur dramatics when someone posts something which they feel qualifies as just that, which shows just how disingenuous they really are and how it's all really about creating waves than any kind of true sense of offence.

    To be blunt, I think there is an element on Boards with an agenda to change AH (sanatise the forum) and going by those who regularly make all the noise in this regard, it is the same tired old faces time time and time again who are guilty of it and to a degree, I am sorry to say: I think they have succeeded somewhat. Quite simply: that element has been the ruination of the forum and I couldn't care less if some of them have stripes on their shoulders. They are trouble and have no grasp of what AH is or is supposed to be and if they do, they don't like it.

    It's the one forum on Boards where the sexes can have some banter on many issues (gender ones just being a fraction of them) that they can't control. They want to be able to though, which is what all this is truly about. They lick up to AH mods and claim that sexism is so much better than it used to be but if we could just do a little more (fluttering of eyelashes) then it would be the bestest forum of 'em all! Don't fall for their shite!

    I recall a thread a long while back where all this same crap was dragged up, torches were lit (petitions signed) and AH was gonna be changed (whether it liked it or not) they swore it and nobody was getting in their way and within hours: a FEMALE user was infracted for saying: "Bitches be crazy!"

    In my opinion (whatever that is worth here) is that AH mods moderate gender issue threads fine. If anything, female posters are more protected in AH from sexism than men are. I see a lot of 'grow-a-pair' and 'man-up' and accusations of men just being bitter, or even that they are in fact misogynists just because certain users can't deal with their opinions and yet, I see know banding together of men wanting AH mods to moderate the forum in a special way with them in mind.

    tl;dr

    The attack the post and not the poster rule is key in gender issue threads as if even the slightest element of users getting personal with each other was nipped in the bud as early as possible, they would never get as heated as they do. That goes triple for users calling out other users and claiming that something they have posted means they are x, y or z (those users should get a toe up the arse for not just reporting the post they had an issue with).

    Last but not least:

    I would like to see a ban on users whining about After Hours on After Hours.

    "Typically abuse on After Hours, sure what would you expect!

    or

    "After Hours has hit a new low"

    Such users should be quickly told to gtfo!


  • #45
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Good post from randylonghorn.

    I'd agree with a lot of what Codyjarrett says too.
    CodyJarrett wrote: »
    There are hundreds of women that use AH on a regular basis. 30% or so of the forum's regulars are females and yet the only women complaining about the forum's moderation of so called sexist posts are the same nine or ten users time and time again and so, it's high time that a certain element either got with what AH is about or just stopped posting there, as they are ruining the forum for everyone else. The same faces only seem to show up when there is trouble (of the gender battle type, that is) and who will just stir some up when there isn't, as they wish there was.
    There's most certainly an element of this. It's not that rare that the same names hardly ever post in AH either.

    We've had similar in the past in the Ladies Lounge, where you'd get opinions from some women who almost never posted in the community, moaning that "it wasn't a true reflection of women/wasn't welcoming/whatever etc". Then you'd have some blokes who seemed to be up to high do over the fact there was even an exclusive forum for women in the first place(it's not BTW we've loads of male posters and good uns too). Plus how it was sexist/not welcoming/had no tolerance for whataboutery etc. The latter crowd got to silly levels at one point, again like you note in AH only a handful of people involved set against the majority of the posters in the community and evidence was pretty lacking with both groups. Plus like you say the type tends to have a built in radar for threads they can play around in. They want the forum in their image to suit them. That's not to say any forum can't be improved, but there can be an element of "improvements" on the back of the loudest voices.
    Strange, as these users who seem to proclaim AH as a no-go area for women, still partake in the amateur dramatics when someone posts something which they feel qualifies as just that, which shows just how disingenuous they really are and how it's all really about creating waves than any kind of true sense of offence.
    They often use nebulous claims of how so many women are put off posting in AH and other forums outside boards have commented on this. Links to such a groundswell are always thin on the ground though.
    To be blunt, I think there is an element on Boards with an agenda to change AH (sanatise the forum)
    +1. Not just on this subject. I get the feeling among some that AH is a slightly embarrassing part of the Boards family. You see this even with mod warnings in other forums. The "take it to AH/This isn't AH here you know" kinda thing. That's less prevalent these days to be fair and rightfully so. AH is the most popular forum on this site. It's the gateway forum for a lot of people who stumble on Boards. It's a huge part of what makes Boards a great set of communities.

    The attack the post and not the poster rule is key in gender issue threads as if even the slightest element of users getting personal with each other was nipped in the bud as early as possible, they would never get as heated as they do. That goes triple for users calling out other users and claiming that something they have posted means they are x, y or z (those users should get a toe up the arse for not just reporting the post they had an issue with).
    +1. I'd also add "get back into the kitchen/make me a sandwich" posts to the "from now on we'll be infracting for cool story bro, blasting with piss and yore ma" list
    Last but not least:

    I would like to see a ban on users whining about After Hours on After Hours.

    "Typically abuse on After Hours, sure what would you expect!

    or

    "After Hours has hit a new low"

    Such users should be quickly told to gtfo!
    +1. It wouldn't be tolerated to nearly the same degree it is on other forums. Try saying that in Politics and see how long you last(rightfully).

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #46
    Alaric Large Earth
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Alaric Large Earth


    Moderate the 'back to the kitchen' stuff if you want, but we all know that when ignored, that stuff goes away all by itself anyway as it's quite juvenile and boring.
    No it doesn't. That's why there is a list of "no more of these tired old lines or you get infracted" in the first place.


  • #47
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,945 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Gender equality does not mean that gender identity is equal.

    For example. There was a thread recently about a man who had been "raped to death" by 5 women.

    If you switch gender you've got people shouting string em up. As it stood you had people posting "Niiiiice" etc.

    Similarly if you switch the roles between Forrest Gump and Jenny in that movie you've got a movie about a guy who preyed on a simple minded pretty girl for sex.

    Gender roles and identities are changing ever more.

    One thread pointed out here indicated a girl being referred to as a slag because she was promiscuous.

    That's a little bit off base in the modern world.


  • #48
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    I'm not sure of the relevance of gender politics. The attacks on Irish women (which most definitely exist) are just dick behaviour (why do people give a toss about the kitchen stuff? It's completely light-hearted - there's no malice) and I thought there was a "Don't be a dick" rule, gender irrelevant. It's not a "women are being oppressed" thing.

    And really, how is asking for an enforcement of the already-in-existence "Don't be a dick" rule seeking a change to AH culture?


  • #49
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,945 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Onixx wrote: »
    I'm not sure of the relevance of gender politics. The attacks on Irish women are just dick behaviour (why do people give a toss about the kitchen stuff? It's completely light-hearted - there's no malice) and I thought there was a "Don't be a dick" rule, gender irrelevant. It's not a "women are being oppressed" thing.

    From my POV the "All Irish women are crap all foridn women are great" threads are on the GTFO list.


  • #50
    Eve_Dublin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,884 ✭✭✭Eve_Dublin


    I'd probably be one of the posters who jumps in on many of those threads. The ones I genuinely have a problem with are the ones directed specifically at Irish women because they're never ever light-hearted, they're filled with malice and always turn nasty. They're the ones I usually (probably stupidly) get involved in, hoping to be able to change the minds of some. The rest, for the most part, I can take as a joke although it's not my kind of humour. They've seemed to have tapered out recently and I find posting in there more enjoyable. I suppose I'd like to see threads like , "Irish women are...." closed as soon as they're spotted by a mod. Nothing good ever comes of them.

    I'm trying my best just to ignore threads that I know will wind me up (because I'm fairly easily wound up) such as the Stag Party one...opened it, read the first few posts, wanted to throw my laptop out my window, so left it. I don't find that easy to do with the Irish women threads...

    I agree there's just a (small) nasty element in AH generally though and the ones who'd make offensive comments directed at women would also have fairly extreme and uninformed opinions in many things.

    I suppose all that can really be done is to report these posts but saying that, I don't report them often now because I feel I've done my share of reporting over the years and I'm probably a bit of a pain in the hole and sometimes I debate with myself whether these kinds of threads should be left open, so hopefully a few minds can be changed. And also I'm so wound up with a poster who comes out with the, "All foreign women are stunning, wonderful women while all Irish women are ugly trogs from the depths of the stinkiest sewer known to man" that I can't help myself, which is not cool either, I'll admit.

    Either way, posters can't possibly deny that these, "Irish women are" threads are plain nasty and are never intended as a light-hearted joke, can they? I'll also concede though that there's only a handful of posters who I think have a genuine grievance against Irish women and they'd be the only ones who'd get on my wick.


  • #51
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I get the feeling among some that AH is a slightly embarrassing part of the Boards family. You see this even with mod warnings in other forums. The "take it to AH/This isn't AH here you know" kinda thing. That's less prevalent these days to be fair and rightfully so.

    But then again...


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