Nigel Farage MEP

bob50 wrote: »

Nigel Farage i admire very much i wish he was in charge here Unlike that yellow bellied kenny who will do anything hes told by Europe:)

It truly worries me that people here of all places would not see through Farage. Sure he can be entertaining but why not, he says what his supporters want to hear, the truth is irrelevant to him. All that matters is his agenda, getting the UK out of the EU. Anyone who thinks leaving the EU would be in Ireland's interests is very foolish indeed. Kenny on the other hand has to deal with the reality we find ourselves in, between a rock and a hard place.
If he didn't have Muslins to worry about the Irish could be the ones on the receiving end as they have been in the past by people of his ilk.

Jorah wrote: »

Germany can build their Fourth Reich all they want. The British people do not want to be a part of it however.

'Fourth Reich'? Dear, oh, dear.

While you're raising the concerns of the British people you might be a bit more balanced and also raise the concerns of the subjects of an actual empire in history, the British Empire. Peoples who were given no democratic choice in the matter.

As for what the British people democratically want, I doubt many would grudge them their right to stay at arms length from the EU should they so wish. However, the democracies that wish an ever closer union within the EU are entitled to have their preferences respected as well.

bwatson wrote: »

What do you mean by this?

Briton 1: I feel we should have a serious discussion about our position within the EU. It is clear a significant percentage of the British population are unhappy with the levels of influence that foreign politicians are having on British affairs.

Briton 2: That is all well and good, however you might want to remember that in the not so distant past we assembled the largest empire in terms of both area and population that humanity has ever seen. We did not afford subjects of the empire any sort of democratic right to determine whether or not a foreign power should have influence over their affairs. It is only right that we now subject ourselves to the same treatment as a form of punishment at the hands of European "neighbours" so as to show how sorry we are for the things we did. Let us continue to be humiliated at the hands of the EU against the will of a great deal of fellow Britons. The other member states - many of them also the constructors of great empires (though not quite as great of course) will love that.

Briton 1: Ok, sure thing. Lets ditch any talk of a referendum. Let us continue to put the will of the British people second to the desires of other Europeans.

Briton 2: Cool bro.

...

That sort of thing? If not, can you please explain any sort of relevance of brining up empire?

Moreover, Britain suffered greatly at the hands of the Third Reich, millions died and the nation was devestated through bombing campaigns. Are you trying to suggest that Brits have no real understanding of what it is like to be faced by an aggressive neighbouring power, simply because we managed to prevail in that conflict?

Really bwatson, all you have to do is read the post I was responding to to realise *I* didn't bring up imperialism.

You *do* realise that 'Reich' is the German for empire, don't you? And that 'Fourth Reich' is shorthand for intimating that Germany is 'still basically Nazi', don't you? And that many English people use it because they're so stuck in the past that they just can't let go of their WW2 comfort blanket.

That's the privilege of people who identify with the UK. But when UKIP-types attempt to introduce that kind of claptrap into Irish politics, don't be surprised about blowback.

McDave wrote: »

Really bwatson, all you have to do is read the post I was responding to to realise *I* didn't bring up imperialism.

You *do* realise that 'Reich' is the German for empire, don't you? And that 'Fourth Reich' is shorthand for intimating that Germany is 'still basically Nazi', don't you? And that many English people use it because they're so stuck in the past that they just can't let go of their WW2 comfort blanket.

That's the privilege of people who identify with the UK. But when UKIP-types attempt to introduce that kind of claptrap into Irish politics, don't be surprised about blowback.

Umm, there were, surprisingly, two defined Reichs before the third Reich. So actually to use the word is not actually intimating that the Germans are still Nazis in any way. You realize the word Reich is in no way limited to describing the aspirations of Hitler and the Nazis? You appear very much stuck in your but-remember-what-de-brits-did-to-us-in-de-past comfort blanket.

Secondly, who has tried to "introduce that kind of claptrap into Irish politics" as you referred to it so disdainfully? You have on several occasions reacted with great hostility to people discussing an issue in British politics in a forum specifically created for debating issues of the wider European Union. Your suggestion seems to be that even discussing a political issue that is not categorically and definitevely Irish on an Irish messageboard deserves "blowback". What a backward idiot you are.

Nodin wrote: »

Nope. 450,000. You seem to be confusing Britain with Poland or Russia.

I seem do I?

My mistake was referring specifically to the Third Reich and not German aggression in the 20th century as a whole which in fact did result in well over a million British deaths.

Still, 450,000 is nothing eh? Sure why dont you just nonchalantly palm it of as if the fact that ONLY 450,000 British people were killed in the Second World War makes my point any less valid.

You also seem to have a habit of liking any post that contains any sort of anti-British sentiment, even if the poster is very much in the wrong with their assertions. See your liking of post 18 in which the poster clearly doesnt realize that the concept of a German Reich extends far further back in history than the emergence of the Nazi party and tried to use his factually incorrect point as a stick to beat the ignorant Brits with.

What me get infracted again for having a different viewpoint to others while a few ardent republicans never recieve infractions for xenophobic, sweeping statements based on ill-informed "knowledge" of "how things work" in the UK

Scofflaw wrote: »

Nor is there anyone anywhere stupid enough to fall for the "there were other Reichs" line. Virtually nobody knows what the first and second Reichs were (Holy Roman Empire and Bismarck's Germany respectively) nor are they commonly referred to by those terms.

"Fourth Reich" is a term that specifically means a successor to Nazi Germany. Please don't try this line in BS any further.

regards,
Scofflaw

Actually Bismarck's Germany, the rise of Prussia and the revolutions/unifications of Europe in the mid 19th century and beyond are extensively taught and widely understood - they are incredibly important events in the history of our continent which still resonate today.

I very much disagree with your point about the lesser known "Reichs" and find it a someone surprising statement from a moderator. The simple fact is that although many may be ignorant to their existence, there were indeed 2 German Reichs before the emergence of the Nazis which differed substantially in some ways but of course had some similarities.

I think you have it the wrong way round - there are indeed people who are too "stupid" to acknowledge, or fall for as you put it, other Reichs. For that those who are aware of their existence and their relevance are not allowed to bring them into the discussion should they feel it relevant? OK then. Perhaps we should simply never discuss anything, ever? Because there will ALWAYS be some posters who think they know what they are talking about, but actually are incredibly poorly informed on the subject - be it Republicanism, local politics in rural Ireland, or European politics.

I'm not trying to be deliberately stubborn, but the fact is that if lesser know historical examples are brought up, the fact that they are not widely understood doesn't mean in any way they are false, or wrong or anything of the sort.

"Fourth Reich" is only a term that specifically means a successor to Nazi Germany if you don't really know what you are talking about.

bwatson wrote: »

Secondly, who has tried to "introduce that kind of claptrap into Irish politics" as you referred to it so disdainfully? You have on several occasions reacted with great hostility to people discussing an issue in British politics in a forum specifically created for debating issues of the wider European Union. Your suggestion seems to be that even discussing a political issue that is not categorically and definitevely Irish on an Irish messageboard deserves "blowback". What a backward idiot you are.

I've no problem with the right of people to put their political views across. However, I'm prepared to make my own calls.

While I have every admiration for the way the British stood up against the Germans in WW2 to defend their culture and their way of life, I personally have no time for the petty nationalism and the perpetuation of anti-German prejudice.

Now I wouldn't dream of taking such a strong line on the issue on English soil, or on a British political forum, were I posting on one. But on an Irish board, I'm afraid I'm going to be much more straightforward.

Having gained our independence from the UK, I am personally of the view that Ireland is better off keeping at political arms length from Westminster. IMO it's better by far for us to involve ourselves politically and economically in a much more diversified structure like the EU. I don't think we can meaningfully pursue any kind of autarkic path. I think most Irish people broadly feel this way.

Naturally there is ongoing debate in Ireland about which direction we should take. Cooperation with the EU is the leading one. Parties like Sinn Fein argue for a more independent line. A very small proportion would like to see us have a closer relationship with the UK.

From my own POV, I'm happy to see open discussion. But when I see prejudice and the petty jingoism from British sources attempting to enter the fray here, I'm happy to take them head on. I don't think the style of debate on offer from UKIP and other more reactionary organisations in Britain brings much to the table here, and I'm prepared to call it that way. Whether it's from the likes of Farage, or from the Irish versions of the English press (a particularly sad fact of Irish media life AFAIC).

bwatson wrote: »

"Fourth Reich" is only a term that specifically means a successor to Nazi Germany if you don't really know what you are talking about.

Modern day Germany is a democracy. The EU is a rules-based group of democratic states broadly acting in tandem through political consent.

I don't see how the term 'Fourth Reich' has any relevance to either, other than being inflammatory and insinuating that Germany's involvement in current European affairs is somehow imperialist and coercive in nature.

It's a pity when the term is brought up, as it was earlier in the thread. But on the other hand, I suppose it is a pretty useful signifier of attitude.

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

And then when members of UKIP are standing on your soil demonstrating, quite justifiably, about the EU's disregard to Irish democracy and the opinions of the Irish people you call it a "pathetic canvassing stunt".

The only thing that's pathetic is the Irish people's shameful obedience of everything their EU masters tell them to do.

*Yawn*

UKIP 'demonstrating' against Lisbon on Dublin streets was a bit more than a 'pathetic canvassing stunt', I suppose. In its own way it helped turn a few votes the Yes direction! Thanks Noige.

Looking forward to a UK referendum on EU membership. Be careful what you wish for. You may have to change your name to EIP in pretty short order.

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

By the way, UKIP did very well in the three by-elections the other day.

They finished SECOND behind Labour in both Middlesbrough and Rotherham and they finished third behind Labour and the Conservatives in Croydon North.

In Rotherham, the Tories finished FIFTH behind Labour, UKIP, BNP and Respect in that order, and the Liberal Democrats finished EIGHTH behind Labour, UKIP, BNP, Respect, the Conservatives, the English Democrats and an Independent.

Labour may have won in Rotherham but they lost votes to UKIP, with a 7.13% swing from Labour to UKIP. This not only reflects the Euroskeptic views of the people of Rotherham but also shows their anger at the Labour-controlled council taking foster children from a couple just because they happened to be members of UKIP.

In Croydon North, the Liberal Democrats finished fourth, finishing behind Labour, the Conservatives and UKIP.

All this shows that UKIP have definitely supplanted the Liberal Democrats as Britain's third party and are a rising force in British politics, reflecting the growing Euroskepticism of the British people.

Unlike Libertas here, UKIP are an organised party.

Like Libertas, UKIP's agenda is largely populist and negative. So their appeal will have a limited lifespan as British politics corrects its imbalances.

Ironically, any further success for UKIP will be at the expense of the Tories, and likely to benefit Labour (and a more constructive attitude to the EU) - a kind of British Ross Perot, if you will.

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

Try telling that to the 83% of the world's countries which are sovereign, independent states, free from the meddling hands of pointless EU meddling and bureaucracy which stifles economic growth.

... most of whom are in pretty bad shape or subject to the whims of a regional powerhouse.

The EU has no role in meddling in Asia (look, e.g. to China) or Latin America (look to the US). So this aspect of your post is a total non sequitur.

As it happens, most of the EU member states are at the top of the international economic tree. Of course quite a lot of them see a strategic advantage in pooling resources and sovereignty by legal consent in the EU, and especially the EZ, to get more bang for their 'buck' (or in most cases their 'Euro').

The UK isn't obliged to be in either arrangement. If the voters want do exit the EU, that's their business. [When push comes to shove, I don't think they will.] But if it does, the EU and the EZ will develop regardless.

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

Codswallop. The British are, rightly, angered by, amongst other things, EU bureaucrats telling us that the EU budget needs to be increased so that hard-pressed British taxpayers, who are having to tighten their belts, have to pay even more to inefficient French farmers (we pay four times more to wealthy French farmers than to poor African ones) and to give EU bureaucrats a pay rise.

'Rightly'? More like self-righteously.

The UK has above-average EU income. In a club like the EU with social funds, it is always going to be a net contributor. That's the kind of solidarity that underpins the EU, albeit on a very modest level. And it's not just British tax-payers who are hard pressed.

At any rate, the EU budget is peanuts. It's bureaucracy is tiny. The increase being sought is rather trivial. Which is not to say there shouldn't be oversight. But I think most people get the idea that by helping less developed EU regions a greater benefit will accrue to all in the future.

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

Yet England will be a free, sovereign state running its own affairs, unlike Ireland, which will forever be cowtowing to its German masters.

Well, Ireland took its independence so it wouldn't have to kowtow to Westminster. I'd guess most Irish people would take the view that our economic interests are best served by voluntary involvement in a diversified legal order like the EU.

As to your comment about 'German masters', quite a few of you chaps are rather obsessed by them. It's quite some inferiority complex many British have about them. Sure, the Germans are pretty successful economically and politically. And they're playing an absolute blinder on the EZ crisis.

With all the negativity on display in London, it seems you boys are going to be among the really big losers when the Euro finally finds its internal balance. And the Germans, and those others who have democratically joined the currency, will reap a political and economic dividend.