Collusion issues need a public enquiry

publicenquiry · 24-06-2015 11:02am #1

I've been following the issue of collusion for a long time.

What Collusion and Panorama showed, along with others like it, not to mention other journalistic works in books and TV not to mention enquires in the RoI, is that the British State effecively allowed and though their inaction and action, supported the killing of its own citizens. It also allowed to pass the murder of citizens of another country.

The security forces could have stopped it.

It was not just a small armed group intent on creating and maintaining strife, to the exent of wishing for civil war, it goes beyond that.

It showed the thought processes and beliefs of certain members of one part of the community in the north. Listen to to Ken McGuinnes, its still a belief for some, its hasn't gone away. So very backward, but thankfully slowly dying out.

This story has nothing to do with the police forces of any other state. Its the actions of players of the security apparatus in the north of Ireland and the UK government.

All those people, all those innocent people, mained, murdered, shot, blow up, homes destroyed, families destroyed, lives wrecked, kids without parents.

The security forces - with their role to upload law and order - could have stopped it, but didn't.

Those tradegies are not confined to one section of the community, north or south.

This is not about those who picked up a weapon, under whatever flag they went under, and paid the ultimate price.

Its about those people carrying out sectarian attacks who were being paid to upload the law.

They weren't attacking people who were armed. They attacked without any fear for themselves. They acted with impunity. They used state resources to make their getaway.

They had uniforms, they had guns, they had intelligence (though no humanity). They had the support of the powers that be.

Who could have stopped it, but didn't.

Reading though these comments - and its little different in many other places of discussion - theres people out there who are forgetting this.

Its not about arguements concerning what constitues a 'legitamate target', whether lawbreaker or law upholder. Its not about one side did this, the side did the other. Theres no whataboutery nonsense. Its not green and its not orange.

Its about justice and how law and order should be upheld in any society. Other members of the security forces could have stopped numerous murderous attacks. No need to kill anyone to stop it. Arrest them, put them on trial.

They didn't.

The state allowed attacks and systematic murders to continue. Why?

We are told that this was all kept under wraps to protect informers. Its also shown there was awareness of this all the way to cabinet and prime ministerial level in the UK. Who we are told proceeded to turn a blind eye, the better for them to avoid accountability.

Who else is being protected?

The best way to answer this is to have a public enquiry. Find out who made these decisions and why. If the decisions are justifiable, lets hear them. If theres nothing to be ashamed of, stand up.

Is there anyone with a shred of decency could defend the actions of these people or the people who directed them?

The forces of law and order could put an end to this, they should do the right thing. There should be a public enquiry.

For what reason, what good reason, would there be reluctance for a UK public enquiry. Surely if there is nothing to hide then it's the best way forward to deal with the issues of the past - not forgetting for many the effects will always be with them, as they wait for explanation, understanding and resolution. Is there any other way is there of handling the issue and getting to the truth?

downcow · 01-07-2015 9:43pm

One very good reason for not opening up a massive enquiry is cost. The Bloody Sunday enquiry cost £100million+ and that was about a dozen deaths on one day. Can you imagine the cost of enquiry into hundreds of deaths over decades. And enquiries only tell people what the want to here ie £100,000,000 and nationalists got it confirmed the army murdered innocent people while unionist got it confirmed that it was all kicked off by Martin Maginnis firing a sub machine gun

publicenquiry · 03-07-2015 8:20pm

No. Sorry, but that is nonsense. Refusal on grounds of cost is not a reason, its an excuse.

Under Human Rights law a government is not allowed to shirk its responsibility because of budget. If that were the case then any issue involving government could be brushed aside as cost ineffective.

The question is did the UK governament allow and sponser the mass murder of its own citizens. Consider they were able to have a public enquiry into whether or not some MP abused police officiers, a minor issue in comparison.

Talking about cost is a spurious red herring. The issue remains truth and justice. Its about how a government governs its people. Its how it represents and protect those it is responsible for. Its about how society functions. Its a question of how acceptable it is for a government to break the rules its supposed to uphold by allowing its agents to murder innocent people.

NorthStars · 03-07-2015 9:03pm

There will never be an investigation into state collusion in murders carried out in Ireland.
It doesn't suit the agenda.
Sinn Fein are the only party calling for a 'peace and reconciliation' to be set up, to at least look at what happened and put it in context.
Unionists, FG and Fianna Fail have no interest in the truth, it doesn't suit them politically.

TOMASJ · 07-07-2015 12:22am

The brits are experts at covering up their dirty deeds, be it Ireland, Argentina, Afghanistan Iraq Libya, just pick a country and at one time or another they have murdered citizens there,

What gets up my nose are "the dont rock the boat, lick their back sides" natives in our country,

Who shout and rave about people who dared stand up to the british murderers,
But are struck dumb when it comes to having any view on crimes carried out by the british aganist their own citizens.

DarkyHughes · 10-07-2015 2:45pm

publicenquiry wrote: »

No. Sorry, but that is nonsense. Refusal on grounds of cost is not a reason, its an excuse.

Under Human Rights law a government is not allowed to shirk its responsibility because of budget. If that were the case then any issue involving government could be brushed aside as cost ineffective.

The question is did the UK governament allow and sponser the mass murder of its own citizens. Consider they were able to have a public enquiry into whether or not some MP abused police officiers, a minor issue in comparison.

Talking about cost is a spurious red herring. The issue remains truth and justice. Its about how a government governs its people. Its how it represents and protect those it is responsible for. Its about how society functions. Its a question of how acceptable it is for a government to break the rules its supposed to uphold by allowing its agents to murder innocent people.

I agree in principal there should be inquires into certain cases but how do you decide which was are more important than others?

There's so many cases of collusion stretching back to atleast 1971 & possibly before that - past the GFA.

People's Democracy march ambushed by loyalists & RUC officers.
McGurks pub bombing 1971
Battle of Springmartin 1972 were UVF & British troops joined forces in a gun battle against the IRA.
The 1972 & 1973 Dublin bombings.
The Dublin & Monaghan bombings 1974
Miami Showband massacre 1975
The Reavey & O'Dowd family killings 1976
The Kingsmill Massacre 1976
The Chlorane Bar attack 1976
The Ramble Inn shooting 1976
The La Mon bombing 1978
Milltown Cemetery attack 1988
The Pat Finucane murder 1989
The Jonesboro ambush 1989
The Cappagh Killings 1991
Sean Grahams bookmakers shootings 1992
The Greysteel Massacre 1993
The Loughingisland massacre 1994
The Billy Wright killing (doubt anyone would shed too much tears over that if it wasn't inquired)
The Rosemary Nelson killing 1999

Plus there's the Stakeknife fella.

And there just the main big ones. There's probably dozens if not 100's more cases.

DarkyHughes · 13-07-2015 2:05pm

Then there's also the Judith Ward, Guildford 4, Maguire 7 & Birmingham 6 cases that no police officer or anybody who got punished for these 18 innocent people serving massive jail sentences for.

Plus there was the agent Brian Nelson who leaked dozens if not 100's of documents on Republicans to UDA neo-nazi terrorists. And for all the documents that were leaked they only managed to kill about 10 Republicans. All the rest were civilians

publicenquiry · 16-07-2015 1:30pm

There appears a definite link between a particular series of murders and attacks, known as the Glenanne series. That includes many mentioned in the list above. This link is now viewed as being de facto true as per multiple sources, based on evidentiary links and direct statements.

While trying to pick one case or another as more important is difficult if not impossible, potentially insulting, it is important to see how the forces of law and order were being subverted, and by whom.

If its possilbe to use a group of linked cases to help prise the lid of these dirty activities and shine a light into this murky world, then it makes sense.

The correct way to do this, with the approriate resources and in the correct legal framework, is via public enquiry.

DarkyHughes · 17-07-2015 10:16pm

publicenquiry wrote: »

There appears a definite link between a particular series of murders and attacks, known as the Glenanne series. That includes many mentioned in the list above. This link is now viewed as being de facto true as per multiple sources, based on evidentiary links and direct statements.

While trying to pick one case or another as more important is difficult if not impossible, potentially insulting, it is important to see how the forces of law and order were being subverted, and by whom.

If its possilbe to use a group of linked cases to help prise the lid of these dirty activities and shine a light into this murky world, then it makes sense.

The correct way to do this, with the approriate resources and in the correct legal framework, is via public enquiry.

This was the Glenanne Gang who operated mainly in Armagh & border counties in the Republic, which was made up of members of the UVF, UDR, RUC & regular British Army. The infamous Captain Robert Nairac was alleged to have been a member.

There was also a British undercover unit called the MRF that operated in Belfast from late 71 - 73 that people claim murdered several Nationalist civilians until it's cover was blown & attacked by the IRA.

Also like Gerry Adams pointed out in the Dail the other day a number of murders & massacres carried out by the British Army. The Falls Road Curfew killings 5 civilians killed dozens wounded, The Ballymurphy Massacre 11 killed & several wounded plus another 9 civilians killed in other parts of Belfast during that same period and the Springhill Massacre were 5 civilians (including a 13 & 14 year old) were killed by British Army snipers & 2 others wounded.

eire4 · 19-07-2015 10:04pm

NorthStars wrote: »

There will never be an investigation into state collusion in murders carried out in Ireland.
It doesn't suit the agenda.
Sinn Fein are the only party calling for a 'peace and reconciliation' to be set up, to at least look at what happened and put it in context.
Unionists, FG and Fianna Fail have no interest in the truth, it doesn't suit them politically.

I am very much of the opinion that holding a truly independant Truth and Reconciliation type investigation that would encompass all the atrocities without prejudice to one side or the other would be the best way to move forward with dealing with issues such as state collusion in murders as an example.

DarkyHughes · 20-07-2015 5:10pm

eire4 wrote: »

I am very much of the opinion that holding a truly independant Truth and Reconciliation type investigation that would encompass all the atrocities without prejudice to one side or the other would be the best way to move forward with dealing with issues such as state collusion in murders as an example.

I'm all for that but what counts as a atrocities tho? If The IRA & British Army were having a gun battle (there was lots of these in 71, 72 & 73) & 3 British were killed & 1 IRA Volunteer was killed would that count?

Or is it just atrocities on civilians & the IRA, UVF, UDA & British Army aren't included. If that's the case what about the Gibraltar & Drummnakilly killings of unarmed IRA men or Loughgall were the SAS shot 2 civilians.?

DarkyHughes · 20-07-2015 5:13pm

NorthStars wrote: »

There will never be an investigation into state collusion in murders carried out in Ireland.
It doesn't suit the agenda.
Sinn Fein are the only party calling for a 'peace and reconciliation' to be set up, to at least look at what happened and put it in context.
Unionists, FG and Fianna Fail have no interest in the truth, it doesn't suit them politically.

What a horrible right-wing coalition they'd make.

eire4 · 20-07-2015 9:11pm

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I'm all for that but what counts as a atrocities tho? If The IRA & British Army were having a gun battle (there was lots of these in 71, 72 & 73) & 3 British were killed & 1 IRA Volunteer was killed would that count?

Or is it just atrocities on civilians & the IRA, UVF, UDA & British Army aren't included. If that's the case what about the Gibraltar & Drummnakilly killings of unarmed IRA men or Loughgall were the SAS shot 2 civilians.?

I would be of the opinion that nothing should be off the table on either side. There were no doubt many atrocities committed by both sides to the conflict and these need to be brought to light and shown for what they were so they are never repeated again in Ireland.

Maybe to give more clarity I should say I support a Truth and Reconciliation commission that would investigate all incidents attributed to the conflict without prejudice to one side or the other.

DarkyHughes · 07-08-2015 9:35pm

eire4 wrote: »

I would be of the opinion that nothing should be off the table on either side. There were no doubt many atrocities committed by both sides to the conflict and these need to be brought to light and shown for what they were so they are never repeated again in Ireland.

Maybe to give more clarity I should say I support a Truth and Reconciliation commission that would investigate all incidents attributed to the conflict without prejudice to one side or the other.

I think one thing that has to be done is the British need to release their files on the Dublin & Monaghan bombings. (I'm guessing Jim Cusack would be against that) It was the worst day of the Troubles, 34 people killed including an entire family who had two baby daughters killed, the majority of people killed were young women between 17 - 22 which people say is the best years of peoples lives (it was for me). And there was about 300 people injured many of them horrifically & maimed for life. It was a Taliban style attack no warning , bombs placed in a position were they would kill many people.

I really find it amazing so many people don't seem to give a sh!t about this. This was the worst terrorist against the PEOPLE of this country. Compare our reaction to these bombings & America's reaction to their worst terrorist attack. The attack was aimed at killing as many innocent people as possible & that's were it differs from other attacks of The troubles. No other attacks were aimed at killing as many innocent people as possible.

There's no other attack in the Troubles like it, except when the UVF tried to bomb a room of 200 - 250 people in 1994 & again in Dublin city, but were stopped by a IRA Volunteer who was shot & killed by the UVF death squad, but there's no doubt his actions saved the lives of atleast 2 dozen people imo.

Fratton Fred · 10-08-2015 12:38pm

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Then there's also the Judith Ward, Guildford 4, Maguire 7 & Birmingham 6 cases that no police officer or anybody who got punished for these 18 innocent people serving massive jail sentences for.

Plus there was the agent Brian Nelson who leaked dozens if not 100's of documents on Republicans to UDA neo-nazi terrorists. And for all the documents that were leaked they only managed to kill about 10 Republicans. All the rest were civilians

I presume you are also hoping that the people of Birmingham and Guildford get proper closure on the atrocities carried out there?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-26920619

And, of course, Nick Spanos and Stephen Melrose.

DarkyHughes · 10-08-2015 3:59pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I presume you are also hoping that the people of Birmingham and Guildford get proper closure on the atrocities carried out there?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-26920619

And, of course, Nick Spanos and Stephen Melrose.

Yes, of course. The Birmingham pub bombings were the 3rd most civilians died from a single attack with Omagh 1998 2nd, & Dublin & Monaghan 1st. So of course. Although none of the families have got justice for any of those attacks.

The people Killed in Guildford for soldiers involved in the conflict they weren't civilians. But they already got closure the birds in the trees know the Balcombe Street ASU were behind the Guildford & Woolich bombings, they confessed to it. It's not their fault the British legal systems was to embarrassed to admit they made a mistake by locking up the G4

i never really got the big fuss of the Guildford bombings they killed 4 British soldiers. In the North the IRA were killing 4, 3, 5 British soldiers in one go all the time between late 1971 - early 1975. The only difference was this attack was in England.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRAg7hz1wac

^ This was still 4 & a half years before the G4 were released. "What time was the last bus back to Aldershot"

Fratton Fred · 10-08-2015 4:26pm

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Yes, of course. The Birmingham pub bombings were the 3rd most civilians died from a single attack with Omagh 1998 2nd, & Dublin & Monaghan 1st. So of course. Although none of the families have got justice for any of those attacks.

The people Killed in Guildford for soldiers involved in the conflict they weren't civilians. But they already got closure the birds in the trees know the Balcombe Street ASU were behind the Guildford & Woolich bombings, they confessed to it. It's not their fault the British legal systems was to embarrassed to admit they made a mistake by locking up the G4

i never really got the big fuss of the Guildford bombings they killed 4 British soldiers. In the North the IRA were killing 4, 3, 5 British soldiers in one go all the time between late 1971 - early 1975. The only difference was this attack was in England.

If Sinn Fein is serious about a truth and reconciliation process, they could start the ball rolling by giving the families of those killed some sort of closure, but i doubt very much they actually want this process to take place. There could be one or two senior Sinn Fein members who may have to admit to a few things they have been denying for years.

DarkyHughes · 10-08-2015 7:12pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If Sinn Fein is serious about a truth and reconciliation process, they could start the ball rolling by giving the families of those killed some sort of closure, but i doubt very much they actually want this process to take place. There could be one or two senior Sinn Fein members who may have to admit to a few things they have been denying for years.

And it's probably the exact same for the British. How can they explain that they were the first combatant to carry out a massacre of innocent people - The Falls Road Curfew July 1970 - 5 civilians dead dozens more injured.
Then theirs the Ballymurphy massacre 11 innocent killed plus another 9 civlians killed by the British elsewhere in Belfast during the same time period bringing the death toll of 20 innocent civilians killed by the British Army in the space of 2 days.
And even after Bloody Sunday they carried out the Springhill massacre killing 5 civilians. Realizing all the bad propaganda they were receiving from this they waged their war against the IRA & Nationalist threw proxy by the Loyalist death squads. And their hands are steeped in blood of innocent civilians. The worst being Dublin & Monaghan, that was a Al-Qaeda style attack, kill as many innocent people as possible & the British won't release their files on the attack because they know there's something very disturbing in them files.

eire4 · 11-08-2015 6:54pm

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I think one thing that has to be done is the British need to release their files on the Dublin & Monaghan bombings. (I'm guessing Jim Cusack would be against that) It was the worst day of the Troubles, 34 people killed including an entire family who had two baby daughters killed, the majority of people killed were young women between 17 - 22 which people say is the best years of peoples lives (it was for me). And there was about 300 people injured many of them horrifically & maimed for life. It was a Taliban style attack no warning , bombs placed in a position were they would kill many people.

I really find it amazing so many people don't seem to give a sh!t about this. This was the worst terrorist against the PEOPLE of this country. Compare our reaction to these bombings & America's reaction to their worst terrorist attack. The attack was aimed at killing as many innocent people as possible & that's were it differs from other attacks of The troubles. No other attacks were aimed at killing as many innocent people as possible.

There's no other attack in the Troubles like it, except when the UVF tried to bomb a room of 200 - 250 people in 1994 & again in Dublin city, but were stopped by a IRA Volunteer who was shot & killed by the UVF death squad, but there's no doubt his actions saved the lives of atleast 2 dozen people imo.

Given that the Dublin and Monaghan bombings was one of the worst atrocities in terms of being the lagrest death toll absolutely it would have to be part of a Truth and Recomciliation comission. No question about that.

DarkyHughes · 13-08-2015 4:16pm

eire4 wrote: »

Given that the Dublin and Monaghan bombings was one of the worst atrocities in terms of being the lagrest death toll absolutely it would have to be part of a Truth and Recomciliation comission. No question about that.

Not even in terms of death toll just the cold calculated way it was planned & executed. This wasn't some amateurs making a f*ck up like Omagh or the SAS in Dunloy killing the wrong person this was planned to kill as many innocent people as possible. They went of on the busiest day of the week, at the the busiest hour of day 5:28 pm just after everyone had finished work, while there was a bus strike on & during one of the busiest months as well.

DarkyHughes · 13-08-2015 4:20pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If Sinn Fein is serious about a truth and reconciliation process, they could start the ball rolling by giving the families of those killed some sort of closure, but i doubt very much they actually want this process to take place. There could be one or two senior Sinn Fein members who may have to admit to a few things they have been denying for years.

How would Sinn Fein go about given the families closure? Plus a lot of former Provos could have split with CIRA in 86 or RIRA 97 who were able to give closure. And if they did how would nationalists who were the victims of almost 1000 Loyalist sectarian killings go about getting some closure. Bill Hutchinson the leader of the PUP seems pretty happy that he killed to unarmed people who had nothing to do with the war/conflict.

Fratton Fred · 13-08-2015 9:56pm

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Not even in terms of death toll just the cold calculated way it was planned & executed. This wasn't some amateurs making a f*ck up like Omagh or the SAS in Dunloy killing the wrong person this was planned to kill as many innocent people as possible. They went of on the busiest day of the week, at the the busiest hour of day 5:28 pm just after everyone had finished work, while there was a bus strike on & during one of the busiest months as well.

It was a shocking atrocity, but not unique.

end of the road · 14-08-2015 6:34pm

DarkyHughes wrote: »

This wasn't some amateurs making a f*ck up like the SAS in Dunloy killing the wrong person

are you sure that was amateurs making a f*ck? wouldn't surprise me if it was deliberate TBH

DarkyHughes · 14-08-2015 7:07pm

end of the road wrote: »

are you sure that was amateurs making a f*ck? wouldn't surprise me if it was deliberate TBH

Omagh? Well it was deliberate in the sense that they wanted to make a bomb blow up. I don't think they intended to kill 29 people, but I could be wrong.

end of the road · 14-08-2015 7:11pm

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Omagh? Well it was deliberate in the sense that they wanted to make a bomb blow up. I don't think they intended to kill 29 people, but I could be wrong.

i was talking about the SAS in Dunloy. sorry if my post wasn't clear

DarkyHughes · 14-08-2015 7:12pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It was a shocking atrocity, but not unique.

It was pretty unique. There wasn't much no warning car-bombings designed to inflict mass civilian causalities from 1966 - 1998 in Ireland or Britain that I can think of. I suppose McGurks pub bombing was pretty similar in that there was no warning & civilians were the target.

DarkyHughes · 14-08-2015 7:17pm

end of the road wrote: »

i was talking about the SAS in Dunloy. sorry if my post wasn't clear

Ah I see it's my fault I made a typo. There should be a "or" between "f*ck up" & "like the SAS".

It's possible the SAS knew he was a civilian & just made it look a mistake I suppose. I wouldn't be surprised.

Fratton Fred · 14-08-2015 11:56pm

DarkyHughes wrote: »

It was pretty unique. There wasn't much no warning car-bombings designed to inflict mass civilian causalities from 1966 - 1998 in Ireland or Britain that I can think of. I suppose McGurks pub bombing was pretty similar in that there was no warning & civilians were the target.

As they were in La Mons, Birmingham and Warrington.

DarkyHughes · 15-08-2015 4:27am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As they were in La Mons, Birmingham and Warrington.

Yeah they were horrible atrocities alright but civilians weren't the target, and there was warnings albeit botched ones. Dublin & Monaghan is also pretty unique for the lack of condemnation that followed such a high death toll from a single operation.

Fratton Fred · 15-08-2015 8:21pm

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Yeah they were horrible atrocities alright but civilians weren't the target, and there was warnings albeit botched ones. Dublin & Monaghan is also pretty unique for the lack of condemnation that followed such a high death toll from a single operation.

The hypocrisy always shows itself.

end of the road · 15-08-2015 10:12pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The hypocrisy always shows itself.

does it? from who and how?

Collusion issues need a public enquiry

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