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My maiden DART voyage
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22-09-2014 9:57am#1An irregular visitor to Dublin, I usually stay very centrally. For a visit this weekend though, lack of availability due to the All Ireland pushed me out to a hotel in Ballsbridge. So, for the first time ever, I used the DART! My experience was as follows:
We planned to get the 16.25 from Connolly to Lansdowne Road (with the train continuing to Greystones). Having checked Irish Rail’s site for real time info, we arrived in good time at Connolly and got our tickets. The departures boards indicated that the 16.25 to Greystones would leave from Platform 6. Arrived to the platform at 16.22. The electronic sign at the (busy) platform listed the next train as leaving in approx. 35 minutes, destined for Bray. This was presumably the scheduled 16.56 service. No mention of the 16.25. A quick flip out of the trusty smartphone showed the 16.25 to Greystones still listed for Connolly. So we waited. And waited. Along with quite a large crowd of confused looking people. No announcements were made. 16.25 came and went. Out with the phone again – the 16.25 listing had now disappeared. The platform sign still just listed the 16.56 to Bray.
Enter “the uncertainty”: did I get this right – surely I can navigate a train station?; did the train leave early?; maybe I should go downstairs and find a staff member – but what if the train arrives while I’m gone? (we were under time pressure and waiting for the 16.56 would put our plans in disarray). Eventually, about 7/8 minutes late, a train approached – no announcements, no change in the platform signage. Getting closer, we could see all its destination boards read “Na Clocha Liatha”. Having a cupla focail, I knew that this was of course Greystones (and presumably our train). The signs remained in Irish though and didn’t cycle to English, meaning the vast majority of locals and tourists of course did not know where this train was headed (still no announcement or change to platform signs). As the doors opened, it was obvious quite a few people didn’t know whether to board or not. We stood near the doors. An American lady called in asking where the train was headed; we answered but I don’t think she heard us as she called in again to an Irish Rail staff member who happened to be walking through that section of the carriage. His response as the doors closed in her face? He laughed at her! I’m sure she’ll be singing the praises of Irish public transport to her countrymates…. At the next two stations, the platform signage again gave no mention of where this ‘ghost train’ was headed, although it was listed at Grand Canal Dock and Lansdowne Road (where we got off).
As I said, I hadn’t used the DART before. Is this level of unreliability, incompetence and downright ignorance normal?15
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The Irish Rail Answer is usually "Did you get to your destination?"
"If yes then what are you whinging about?"
You can make a complaint to Irish Rail about your experience and they might be able to explain the situation to you.0 -
The Irish Rail Answer is usually "Did you get to your destination?"
"If yes then what are you whinging about?"
You can make a complaint to Irish Rail about your experience and they might be able to explain the situation to you.
Yes, I'll be sending it on to them but don't expect much TBH. I realise that not everything will run according to plan all the time, but what annoyed and surprised me Saturday was the combination of things happening that shouldn't have, i.e. train late & no platform signage & no announcement & real time info disappearing & all info in Irish & rude staff member. One of these things happening isn't something to get worked up about (except for staff member), but ALL of them happening together shouldn't really occur! (And this is separate from Dublin Bus RTPI which I found to be hopeless, but that's for another thread).0 -
Was this on Friday?
Last Friday's service was an aberration and I've already sent in a complaint about it.
I know there was a points failure but the complete lack of announcements and the incorrect information being given out really annoyed the hell out of a lot of people.
I could have got the bus but instead I was stuck at Howth Junction for half an hour.0 -
Was this on Friday?
Last Friday's service was an aberration and I've already sent in a complaint about it.
I know there was a points failure but the complete lack of announcements and the incorrect information being given out really annoyed the hell out of a lot of people.
No, Saturday afternoon.0 -
With regards to the trains destination displays being incorrect, unfortunately the Asian built trains have had issues with their passenger information systems ever since they were introduced, and frequently break, don't work at all, have blank screens but announcements , don't have announcements but have screens, don't know where they are going or get stuck.
The only trains with PIS I trust are the German built units.0 -
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The issue here was the platform display did not display the train
This is highly unusual0 -
To be fair there was more than that issue, the way it was handled was a problem as well and the lack of information.
I accept that things go wrong from time to time, but Irish rail seem to be particularly bad at dealing with said situations of late on my daily commute.0 -
Thats the nub of it really. If something in the system breaks down the vast majority of people don't have a problem with that provided they get information about it so they can reassess their journey and decide if they need to switch to bus or taxi.
Anytime I'm in London I always notice how the Tube staff are really proactive about passing information to customers. Sometimes you see gangs of them standing in a station fielding questions from passengers on route info, delays, handing out Tube route maps, all that stuff. You see whiteboard signs up telling you what the service is like on each line and advice on alternate routes if something has broken down. You notice how Londoners almost expect these break downs and delays but at the same time so long as they have current info they don't get annoyed about it, they just replan their journey using the information provided and get on with things. Its a shame Irish Rail couldn't take a leaf out of their book.0 -
That was my gripe on Friday.
I got on the train to Malahide and went all the way to Howth Junction as normal and the only message I read on the displays at the time of departure from Connolly was that services between Howth Junction and Howth were suspended and also all the Howth services showed as terminating at Howth Junction and all Malahides terminating at Malahide.
So of course people get on the Malahide train expecting to go to stations on that branch. We get to Kilbarack just over 10 minutes later and then we are stuck for almost 10 minutes before the driver says the line is closed and there will be a short delay. Another half an hour goes past and still we're sitting at Kilbarack. Yet the display on the platform continues to say "Services are suspended between Howth Junction and Howth"
Not a single announcement at Kilbarack either, nothing from the driver in the half an hour, until I use the remaining 5% of my battery that I was saving to look-up twitter and find out actually the line to Malahide was closed even before I got on the train, yet at this stage almost an hour after closure, the displays still were still only mentioning suspensions on the Howth branch. If I had known that before getting on the train I'd just have got the bus.
Ironically I today found out I had a friend on the Howth service behind who wanted to get off at Kilbarack, but ended up being stabled in Raheny for a while, because their train bound for Howth Junction couldn't go any further because we were blocking the line on a so called open line according to the displays.
I don't expect miracles and I realise that points failures do happen. But the fact was I spent 40 minutes stuck in Kilbarack with all the kids on the platform exhibiting anti-social behaviour with no announcements, incorrect information, and what felt like a can't be bothered attitude.
As a fellow passenger said, the fact that it was culture night and tours were happening at the station around the same time everything went crazy didn't show tourism in the city in the best light.0 -
Sounds about normal to me.
It's not so much that I expect the trains to work 100% of the time, but when there is a problem or delay the information provided to passengers is usually either non-existent, poor, incomprehensible or conflicts with the information displays. I still find myself wandering between platforms in Connolly at times with no idea if and where a delayed train is actually going to appear. Have no idea how tourists manage in those situations.0 -
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The funniest things about all of this?
The staff are equally in the dark in most of these situations with delays etc. No one in CTC ever picks up a phone to tell staff on the ground that trains are delayed/broken down or whatever.
The first we hear is usually from members of the public.
I've had trains sitting on platforms 40 minutes after scheduled departure at their starting station on the line i work on and knew nothing about it until i rang CTC to find out where the train was when it didn't show up.
This has been brought up to management numerous times and apparently it isn't the job of CTC staff to let other staff know about delays unless you contact them and ask them about it.0 -
What I don't understand is if they were able to tell people on twitter and on their website, how comes they were not able to make announcements or update the station displays?
Even half an hour after they updated the website, the information on the displays was still out of date.0 -
Friday was a disaster alright. I was delayed 88 minutes at Connolly. Incredible lack of announcements. At least I had a phone number for the Connolly information desk, but they told me to leave my seat on the packed train, and go find a staff member on the platform, as the information desk had guess what.....no information. For an entire 88 minutes??? Come on. We deserve better. 95% of the time services, and staff, are fine. But when things go wrong, they just completely drop the ball. I have never had a good experience during a service failure, and in all cases, there is one theme....poor communication.
I would be interested to hear what staff think...are the customers being unreasonable to expect some information? Or are the lines of communication within IE simply so bad, that frontline staff don't care anymore? Just curious...rant over!0 -
Padraig Mor wrote: »...As I said, I hadn’t used the DART before. Is this level of unreliability, incompetence and downright ignorance normal?
Most of the time there is no problem.
Is this the way its handled when there is a problem, no info, poor signage etc.
Most definitely.0 -
Padraig Mor wrote: »An irregular visitor to Dublin, I usually stay very centrally. For a visit this weekend though, lack of availability due to the All Ireland pushed me out to a hotel in Ballsbridge. So, for the first time ever, I used the DART! My experience was as follows:
We planned to get the 16.25 from Connolly to Lansdowne Road (with the train continuing to Greystones). Having checked Irish Rail’s site for real time info, we arrived in good time at Connolly and got our tickets. The departures boards indicated that the 16.25 to Greystones would leave from Platform 6. Arrived to the platform at 16.22. The electronic sign at the (busy) platform listed the next train as leaving in approx. 35 minutes, destined for Bray. This was presumably the scheduled 16.56 service. No mention of the 16.25. A quick flip out of the trusty smartphone showed the 16.25 to Greystones still listed for Connolly. So we waited. And waited. Along with quite a large crowd of confused looking people. No announcements were made. 16.25 came and went. Out with the phone again – the 16.25 listing had now disappeared. The platform sign still just listed the 16.56 to Bray.
Enter “the uncertainty”: did I get this right – surely I can navigate a train station?; did the train leave early?; maybe I should go downstairs and find a staff member – but what if the train arrives while I’m gone? (we were under time pressure and waiting for the 16.56 would put our plans in disarray). Eventually, about 7/8 minutes late, a train approached – no announcements, no change in the platform signage. Getting closer, we could see all its destination boards read “Na Clocha Liatha”. Having a cupla focail, I knew that this was of course Greystones (and presumably our train). The signs remained in Irish though and didn’t cycle to English, meaning the vast majority of locals and tourists of course did not know where this train was headed (still no announcement or change to platform signs). As the doors opened, it was obvious quite a few people didn’t know whether to board or not. We stood near the doors. An American lady called in asking where the train was headed; we answered but I don’t think she heard us as she called in again to an Irish Rail staff member who happened to be walking through that section of the carriage. His response as the doors closed in her face? He laughed at her! I’m sure she’ll be singing the praises of Irish public transport to her countrymates…. At the next two stations, the platform signage again gave no mention of where this ‘ghost train’ was headed, although it was listed at Grand Canal Dock and Lansdowne Road (where we got off).
As I said, I hadn’t used the DART before. Is this level of unreliability, incompetence and downright ignorance normal?
no its not normal. I'm usually in dublin on Friday afternoons on a fairly regular basis and that doesn't usual happen with that particular train. Usually they run like clockwork and on time. So you probably just got caugt out unintentionlly.0 -
mickydoomsux wrote: »The funniest things about all of this?
The staff are equally in the dark in most of these situations with delays etc. No one in CTC ever picks up a phone to tell staff on the ground that trains are delayed/broken down or whatever.
The first we hear is usually from members of the public.
I've had trains sitting on platforms 40 minutes after scheduled departure at their starting station on the line i work on and knew nothing about it until i rang CTC to find out where the train was when it didn't show up.
This has been brought up to management numerous times and apparently it isn't the job of CTC staff to let other staff know about delays unless you contact them and ask them about it.What I don't understand is if they were able to tell people on twitter and on their website, how comes they were not able to make announcements or update the station displays?
Even half an hour after they updated the website, the information on the displays was still out of date.Friday was a disaster alright. I was delayed 88 minutes at Connolly. Incredible lack of announcements. At least I had a phone number for the Connolly information desk, but they told me to leave my seat on the packed train, and go find a staff member on the platform, as the information desk had guess what.....no information. For an entire 88 minutes??? Come on. We deserve better. 95% of the time services, and staff, are fine. But when things go wrong, they just completely drop the ball. I have never had a good experience during a service failure, and in all cases, there is one theme....poor communication.
I would be interested to hear what staff think...are the customers being unreasonable to expect some information? Or are the lines of communication within IE simply so bad, that frontline staff don't care anymore? Just curious...rant over!
This is really where Irish Rail still cannot get it right.
Interestingly precisely the same problem has been highlighted this morning in an article on the BBC News website.
Passenger Focus (the UK statutory passenger watchdog) have published a survey which has found exactly the same problem - worth watching the video on the link below as I suspect it will resonate with quite a few passengers here.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29317630Rail passengers 'dissatisfied' with delay information
A third of rail passengers are happy with the way their train company deals with delays or cancellations, a survey has suggested.
Passenger Focus's survey said rail customers found Twitter had better information than station staff.
The passenger watchdog carried out the survey of 1,020 passengers who had a delay in the previous seven days for the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR).
ORR said improvements had been made by rail companies, but more were needed.
The results of the passenger survey were sent to the train companies.
One customer who completed the survey said: "I'd have liked an announcement from a human, rather than numbers on a board."
I've noticed from some of the new direct award/refranchising agreements that some of the UK train operating companies have committed to issuing platform staff with tablets to try to improve the information flow to customers.
To me it sounds like you would need an extra body in CTC whose specific task is to deal with getting information in these circumstances out to frontline staff.0 -
Things are not perfect in the UK by any means with regards to passenger information during disruption, but by and large they are handled better than they are by Irish Rail in my experience.
I live in hope that Irish Rail one day will have passenger information systems that are similar to your average UK large Town/City stations, but I can't see it happening for a while.
The Irish Rail screens show minimum information in comparison. If you compare Connolly with any major city in the UK it's so far behind it's unreal.0 -
Things are not perfect in the UK by any means with regards to passenger information during disruption, but by and large they are handled better than they are by Irish Rail in my experience.
I live in hope that Irish Rail one day will have passenger information systems that are similar to your average UK large Town/City stations, but I can't see it happening for a while.
The Irish Rail screens show minimum information in comparison. If you compare Connolly with any major city in the UK it's so far behind it's unreal.
I would agree about the PIS screens - at the moment they can't put train lengths onto them as the system does not have that capability, however there are green shoots, as I've noticed that the main departures board in Heuston is now displaying train lengths (presumably this is controlled locally in the station).
However, when it comes to managing disruption and related communications, I would certainly be of the opinion that they seem to find it as difficult across the water as they do here to deal with unplanned disruptions. Looking at various transport forums will tell you that, as there are numerous threads about people being left completely in the dark, missing trains, etc. due to a complete lack of proper information.0 -
It's not just the lack of train lengths, is just the sheer limitations of them due to only two lines of information being shown, having long and wide two line displays is useless.
Much better to have a sign like this on every platform like even in the average sized Towns in the UK, since they hold a far bigger amount of info at a time.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/content/images/2007/11/16/paris_gallery_1_353x470.jpg
On Island Platforms where there is a train going out on each side, you then stick a general information screen in the middle between either platforms display, showing a table of departures by default, or disruption information if it's happening.
You then replace those ugly bank of two blue screens in the station with two LED ones, the first and second showing departures, but allowing the first to change to a 2 page layout during disruption, allowing the second screen to show the latest information.
The only thing I wouldn't change too much is the main screens in Connolly, I'd just add an extra one to show later departures which again can also revert to disruption information if need be.
There are ways to improve PIS at stations even when things are running properly. The fact that in the capitals main station you can only see the next dart in either direction from the main departures board, but you can see the list of trains on the blue screens, but not where they are stopping is very poor, the whole provision of information needs to be overhauled, but as I say I don't expect it to happen.0 -
This is really where Irish Rail still cannot get it right.
Interestingly precisely the same problem has been highlighted this morning in an article on the BBC News website.
Passenger Focus (the UK statutory passenger watchdog) have published a survey which has found exactly the same problem - worth watching the video on the link below as I suspect it will resonate with quite a few passengers here.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29317630
I've noticed from some of the new direct award/refranchising agreements that some of the UK train operating companies have committed to issuing platform staff with tablets to try to improve the information flow to customers.
To me it sounds like you would need an extra body in CTC whose specific task is to deal with getting information in these circumstances out to frontline staff.[/QUOTE]
There is, text and e-mail alerts get sent to some managers phones and certain e-mail accounts, thats how the twitter account gets them. With the points failure in Howth Jct ( AGAIN ), all that would have been said was the nature of the fault, it wouldnt say how long the delay would be only maybe an estimated time .
How this info gets passed on to the passengers is where the breakdown occurs, some will do all they can to keep the passengers informed, others will be a bit shy about it or havent been properly informed by their managers etc. There is no excuse for the lack of announcements on trains as the driver is in contact with ctc and can give reqular updates every 5 minutes or so if needed. If they havent received any updates then they cant just repeat what they know already. Its the same in stations, announcements can be made and signs put up on the ticket machines and staff on the ground informing people of the delays or lack of service before they buy tickets.0 -
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It's not just the lack of train lengths, is just the sheer limitations of them due to only two lines of information being shown, having long and wide two line displays is useless.
Much better to have a sign like this on every platform like even in the average sized Towns in the UK, since they hold a far bigger amount of info at a time.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/content/images/2007/11/16/paris_gallery_1_353x470.jpg
On Island Platforms where there is a train going out on each side, you then stick a general information screen in the middle between either platforms display, showing a table of departures by default, or disruption information if it's happening.
You then replace those ugly bank of two blue screens in the station with two LED ones, the first and second showing departures, but allowing the first to change to a 2 page layout during disruption, allowing the second screen to show the latest information.
The only thing I wouldn't change too much is the main screens in Connolly, I'd just add an extra one to show later departures which again can also revert to disruption information if need be.
There are ways to improve PIS at stations even when things are running properly. The fact that in the capitals main station you can only see the next dart in either direction from the main departures board, but you can see the list of trains on the blue screens, but not where they are stopping is very poor, the whole provision of information needs to be overhauled, but as I say I don't expect it to happen.
The big boards will tell you where the trains stop at. It its a dart then you know it stop at all stops its destination. There is also a full timetable on the wall by the coffee dock plus time tables for you to take away.
There is a screen by the big telly in Connolly and the barrier that will tell you when the next train North and Southbound is and its current location.0 -
They are not in a competition with the Uk so it doesnt matter. What other info do you want displayed?Things are not perfect in the UK by any means with regards to passenger information during disruption, but by and large they are handled better than they are by Irish Rail in my experience.
I live in hope that Irish Rail one day will have passenger information systems that are similar to your average UK large Town/City stations, but I can't see it happening for a while.
The Irish Rail screens show minimum information in comparison. If you compare Connolly with any major city in the UK it's so far behind it's unreal.0 -
Hilly Bill wrote: »The big boards will tell you where the trains stop at. It its a dart then you know it stop at all stops its destination. There is also a full timetable on the wall by the coffee dock plus time tables for you to take away.
There is a screen by the big telly in Connolly and the barrier that will tell you when the next train North and Southbound is and its current location.
It's all very well if you are starting your Journey at Connolly, but not everybody is and there are a lot of interchanging passengers there and for tourists, it's downright unfriendly.
Just as well they're not in competition with the UK, since if they were they'd come somewhere close to zero in comparison for provision of on platform information.
There is absolutely zero provision for showing proper disruption information on the PIS at Connolly, scrolling it every now and then in place of departures or where a train stops doesn't count. the fact is a two line display on a platform trying to share all information which ideally should be on separate or much larger screens with proper details is a half arsed way of giving proper info.0 -
It's all very well if you are starting your Journey at Connolly, but not everybody is and there are a lot of interchanging passengers there and for tourists, it's downright unfriendly.
Just as well they're not in competition with the UK, since if they were they'd come somewhere close to zero in comparison for provision of on platform information.
All the platform screens tell you where a train stops. Do you want the blue screens to not only list the next 10 or so trains and their platform departure but to list every stop along the way as well? Surely a departure for Bray,Greystones, Maynooth, Howth, Malahide and Drogheda etc is sufficient enough without having to list the next train to all the intermediate stops along the way as well.
How is it unfriendly for tourists? when they go to Howth they ask which train? If the go to Skerries, they ask which train, if they want to go to Kildare they get given directions to Hueston.
There isnt a lot more that can be done unless you want them to lead them by the hand to their destination.
In an event of a disruption, a display board get placed on the concourse in Connolly stating the nature of the disruption along with announcemets.0 -
mickydoomsux wrote: »The funniest things about all of this?
The staff are equally in the dark in most of these situations with delays etc. No one in CTC ever picks up a phone to tell staff on the ground that trains are delayed/broken down or whatever.
The first we hear is usually from members of the public.
I've had trains sitting on platforms 40 minutes after scheduled departure at their starting station on the line i work on and knew nothing about it until i rang CTC to find out where the train was when it didn't show up.
This has been brought up to management numerous times and apparently it isn't the job of CTC staff to let other staff know about delays unless you contact them and ask them about it.
What's funny about that is that you waited 40 minutes before you made a call here in lies the problem. Do station inspectors and the likes not get text messages about delays they should be passing this on to frontline staff.0 -
mickydoomsux wrote: »The funniest things about all of this?
The staff are equally in the dark in most of these situations with delays etc. No one in CTC ever picks up a phone to tell staff on the ground that trains are delayed/broken down or whatever.
The first we hear is usually from members of the public.
I've had trains sitting on platforms 40 minutes after scheduled departure at their starting station on the line i work on and knew nothing about it until i rang CTC to find out where the train was when it didn't show up.
This has been brought up to management numerous times and apparently it isn't the job of CTC staff to let other staff know about delays unless you contact them and ask them about it.
What's funny about that is that you waited 40 minutes before you made a call here in lies the problem. Do station inspectors and the likes not get text messages about delays they should be passing this on to frontline staff.0 -
Hilly Bill wrote: »In an event of a disruption, a display board get placed on the concourse in Connolly stating the nature of the disruption along with announcemets.
The top of that display board is lower than head height and is easily missed as it gets lost in a crowd. It's also no use to anyone not coming in the Luas end, as that is where it is positioned -- anyone coming up the stairs from the front/back door (IFSC side) or indeed from another platform will not see it.
Last Friday no trains were travelling north of Harmonstown, that sign was out, yet the main display board showed all services as normal.
The main display board is where everyone looks first when they come into Connolly.0 -
Without getting into nitty gritty of individual details, I think it is fair comment to say that there could be a significant improvement in the quality of information passed on to operational staff and passengers in the event of an unplanned disruption.
Anyone trying to claim otherwise is kidding themselves.
The current platform displays are also outdated and are in need of renewal, as the information that they provide really isn't as complete as people might expect these days.
This obviously would need to be connected into the signalling system and how this is done is a whole different kettle of fish. The ongoing re-signalling projects may facilitate an improvement, I don't know.
I don't think it unreasonable to compare Irish Rail with UK TOC's - in structure they are quite similar, so coming along and saying "we don't compete with them" is a rather daft argument.
But again, like Dublin Bus, all these things require funding and that's another battle to be fought.0 -
The top of that display board is lower than head height and is easily missed as it gets lost in a crowd. It's also no use to anyone not coming in the Luas end, as that is where it is positioned -- anyone coming up the stairs from the front/back door (IFSC side) or indeed from another platform will not see it.
Last Friday no trains were travelling north of Harmonstown, that sign was out, yet the main display board showed all services as normal.
The main display board is where everyone looks first when they come into Connolly.
Its hard to miss to be honest its placed in the middle at the barrier end.0 -
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Hilly Bill wrote: »Its hard to miss to be honest its placed in the middle at the barrier end.
It's hard to see from platform 5, 6 or 7!0
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