Undertaking in bus lanes.

whomitconcerns · 14-04-2014 9:29am

its not very clear in irish law. But from a LOt of reading it seems to be a seperate carrigeway during bus-hours and an unenforced "ignore if you want" left lane out of hours....seriously it couldnt be more ambigous if they tried.

ie Can you use (non 24 hr lanes) on Bank holidays?
ie Can you "undertake" in the bus lane?
ie Do you have to use them when not in operation? ie when they are the leftmost lane?
ie Does using your left indicator to pass by all the queueing traffic the whole way along the malahide road actually make you invisible to the guardai?

They are just some of the biggest issues..and are completely ambigous in Irish law...so interpret as you like!

Skittlebrau · 14-04-2014 9:45am

K.Flyer wrote: »

...
If you extrapolate this scenario to modern day driving, (IMO), it translates into the deliberate change to a left lane to pass a slower vehicle and then rejoin your original lane (at any speed).

Whereas to continue in your lane, (even if its lane 1), regardless of speed but within the legal limit, whilst passing slower moving cars in outer lanes does not construe undertaking in the strictest sense of the law if you look at where the law originated from.

Also it is the driver of the car who wishes to change lanes, be it on a motorway or to move into a bus lane, to have a duty of care to the users of that lane and to excercise caution when carrying out such a manoeuvre as the vehicles in the lane which the driver intends to join (irrespective of their speed) have right of way.

FWIW a driver tester I know tells me that this is the correct way to drive. He drew a distinction between over/under taking i.e. moving from one lane into another and then rejoining the original lane and merely 'passing' on the left if you're just driving in another lane. He says that's not overtaking on the left.

Makes sense to me... and would resolve the perceived illegality of buses using bus lanes if it were true.

Although what a court might interpret the legislation to mean might be something else entirely.

djimi · 14-04-2014 9:53am

Skittlebrau wrote: »

FWIW a driver tester I know tells me that this is the correct way to drive. He drew a distinction between over/under taking i.e. moving from one lane into another and then rejoining the original lane and merely 'passing' on the left if you're just driving in another lane. He says that's not overtaking on the left.

Makes sense to me... and would resolve the perceived illegality of buses using bus lanes if it were true.

Although what a court might interpret the legislation to mean might be something else entirely.

He is absolutely wrong. It is illegal to pass another car on the left (except under certain very specific circumstances); how you got to be on the left and what you do after you make the pass is irrelevant.

Skittlebrau · 14-04-2014 10:13am

djimi wrote: »

He is absolutely wrong. It is illegal to pass another car on the left (except under certain very specific circumstances); how you got to be on the left and what you do after you make the pass is irrelevant.

Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing you but what are you basing this on?

There's far too much opinion and very few facts when it comes to most posts on this issue.

whomitconcerns · 14-04-2014 10:19am

Skittlebrau wrote: »

Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing you but what are you basing this on?

There's far too much opinion and very few facts when it comes to most posts on this issue.

based on road traffic act 1964 imagine...

4) Notwithstanding paragraph (3) of this bye-law, a driver may overtake on the left—

(a) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled his intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,

(b) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to turn left at a road junction and has signalled this intention,

(c) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

Skittlebrau · 14-04-2014 10:27am

whomitconcerns wrote: »

based on road traffic act 1964 imagine...

4) Notwithstanding paragraph (3) of this bye-law, a driver may overtake on the left—

(a) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled his intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,

(b) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to turn left at a road junction and has signalled this intention,

(c) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

Thanks.. I probably should have been more clear. So it comes back to the definition of slow moving traffic which is undefined in the legislation and which different people have different opinions on as to what it constitutes.

It's clearly a grey area given the widely different views people have on it.. an no matter how strong anyones view is, until a court decides (or the legislature decide to clarify) exactly what constitutes slow moving traffic, there'll always be scope for differing views.

whomitconcerns · 14-04-2014 10:30am

ah yes..this is something we seem to be constantly discussing...generally speaking slow moving traffic is less than 30kph i would think...but as you say...each to their own sadly...

djimi · 14-04-2014 10:35am

Slow moving traffic is slow moving traffic; Im pretty sure anyone who drives a car knows what this means and I doubt many judges would believe otherwise! I have been on a dual carraigeway with three solid lanes of cars all doing 60km/h that I would still consider to be slow moving traffic for the purpose of overtaking, as if the left hand lane is doing 5km/h faster than the right hand lane, no Garda is going to prosecute for overtaking on the left in this instance, and its just a one solid line of traffic moving slightly faster than another solid line of traffic.

The way that it is written in the traffic act is ambiguous, but it also leaves it up to common sense to interpret.

Skittlebrau · 14-04-2014 10:36am

whomitconcerns wrote: »

ah yes..this is something we seem to be constantly discussing...generally speaking slow moving traffic is less than 30kph i would think...but as you say...each to their own sadly...

Exactly.. I would agree 30kph is slow in a 50kph zone. I also think 80kph is slow (and more dangerous) in a 100 or 120 kph zone.

But the problem is... that's just my opinion.

Muahahaha · 14-04-2014 2:40pm

whomitconcerns wrote: »

ah yes..this is something we seem to be constantly discussing...generally speaking slow moving traffic is less than 30kph i would think...but as you say...each to their own sadly...

I think what it comes down to is the perception of dangerous driving in the circumstances where it occurs. The law is likely deliberately grey because it would be almost impossible to legislate for every single possibility, the law states what it states and then judges interpret it in light of the individual circumstances as told to them by the prosecuting Garda.

It's easy to think of situations where a bus or taxi undertaking a line of slow moving traffic at speed can in some locations be perfectly safe and then in other locations (such as outside a school) the same type of driving can be classed as dangerous. The speed limits remain constant but the driving conditions and environment you are driving in are constantly changing.

You'll also tend to find that if a Guard stands up in court and says to the judge that he observed you driving dangerously or without due care then all your arguing about technicalities and grey areas will likely only end up with you getting more points and a bigger fine than if you just had of left it uncontested and paid the €80 on the spot fine and taken the two points. I'd imagine that's what the vast majority of people do and because the law is never really challenged then it is never going to change.

LFCFan · 14-04-2014 3:04pm

Try driving on the M1 any weekday morning in rush hour and see just how ridiculous the 'undertaking' law could potentially be if the interpretation of slow moving traffic was around 30kph. I try my best to always drive in the inner most lane I can and only use the middle and outer lane (in a 3 lane road) and outer lane (in a 2 lane road) to overtake. If I am on the M1 doing 120kph on the inside lane and I come across a queue of traffic in the overtaking lane doing 100kph, am I supposed to:

1. Drop to 100kph and stay in the inside lane
2. Move in to the overtaking lane and join the queue of traffic doing 100kph
3. Continue driving at 120kph in the inside lane, meaning I am 'undertaking' the slow(er) moving traffic in the overtaking lane

For me the only option that makes sense is option 3. Otherwise you either end up with me blocking the inside lane for any traffic that may want to undertake whether it's legal or not (I'm not on the road to police others) or I just join an every increasing queue of traffic on the overtaking lane because some idiot at the head of said queue doesn't realize the overtaking lane is just that, an 'OVERTAKING' lane, not a driving lane.

Irish roads are the reason I love driving in America. The freedom to drive like a responsible driver, using indicators and mirrors, is a breath of fresh air.

whomitconcerns · 14-04-2014 3:08pm

LFCFan wrote: »

Try driving on the M1 any weekday morning in rush hour and see just how ridiculous the 'undertaking' law could potentially be if the interpretation of slow moving traffic was around 30kph. I try my best to always drive in the inner most lane I can and only use the middle and outer lane (in a 3 lane road) and outer lane (in a 2 lane road) to overtake. If I am on the M1 doing 120kph on the inside lane and I come across a queue of traffic in the overtaking lane doing 100kph, am I supposed to:

1. Drop to 100kph and stay in the inside lane
2. Move in to the overtaking lane and join the queue of traffic doing 100kph
3. Continue driving at 120kph in the inside lane, meaning I am 'undertaking' the slow(er) moving traffic in the overtaking lane

For me the only option that makes sense is option 3. Otherwise you either end up with me blocking the inside lane for any traffic that may want to undertake whether it's legal or not (I'm not on the road to police others) or I just join an every increasing queue of traffic on the overtaking lane because some idiot at the head of said queue doesn't realize the overtaking lane is just that, an 'OVERTAKING' lane, not a driving lane.

Irish roads are the reason I love driving in America. The freedom to drive like a responsible driver, using indicators and mirrors, is a breath of fresh air.

Sadly...under Irish law 1 and 2 are your options and 3 is illegal...not right..but is not allowed.

LFCFan · 14-04-2014 3:13pm

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Sadly...under Irish law 1 and 2 are your options and 3 is illegal...not right..but is not allowed.

Option 1 would mean I am not allowing the flow of traffic and is illegal and option 2 is just beyond ridiculous and makes an ass of the law. The only way the undertaking law could ever make sense is if people actually knew how to drive in motorways in the first place.

Why can't they use those 'time to junction' electronic signs to tell drivers to get the fcuk out of the overtaking lane unless you are overtaking.

As for the whole bus lane argument. Of course buses can drive in them faster than the regular traffic. That's the whole reason for them in the first place. Otherwise, what's the point in them at all?

whomitconcerns · 14-04-2014 3:21pm

LFCFan wrote: »

Option 1 would mean I am not allowing the flow of traffic and is illegal and option 2 is just beyond ridiculous and makes an ass of the law. The only way the undertaking law could ever make sense is if people actually knew how to drive in motorways in the first place.

Why can't they use those 'time to junction' electronic signs to tell drivers to get the fcuk out of the overtaking lane unless you are overtaking.

As for the whole bus lane argument. Of course buses can drive in them faster than the regular traffic. That's the whole reason for them in the first place. Otherwise, what's the point in them at all?

I agree completely. I drive M1, M50, N7 regularly...The N7 90% of the time you can do full speed on left lane while right 2 lanes are doing 70-90kph

M50 I have given up changing lanes twice every time...its just a pita. I saw someone on this forum argue the other day that they always droive in middle lane as left lane is for slow drivers only and why should they have to be constantly overtaking...

The lack of enforcement of the law is the problem...

cormac_byrne · 14-04-2014 3:51pm

corktina wrote: »

I thought the bus lane was treated as a separate road and you join at the start and leave at the end, not crossing the solid white line in between. When the lane is not in use, the white line "disappears" and the lane becomes the driving lane and you may not undertake

Yes that's exactly how it works, but must people don't know it.
The RSA could clarify this but for some reason they won't.

LFCFan · 14-04-2014 4:06pm

whomitconcerns wrote: »

M50 I have given up changing lanes twice every time...its just a pita. I saw someone on this forum argue the other day that they always droive in middle lane as left lane is for slow drivers only and why should they have to be constantly overtaking....

I've had drivers beep me out of it or give me the finger because I've moved in and out of the driving lane to overtake when they were sitting in the overtaking lane 5 or 6 car lengths back not even attempting to overtake. The amount of cars you see joining the M50 from slip roads and going straight in to the middle lane when there is nothing in the inside lane is unreal. The biggest problem with Irish motorways is that they are a relatively new thing and there is nothing in our driving lessons that prepare us so most people just haven't a clue what way they are supposed to drive on them.

whomitconcerns · 14-04-2014 4:11pm

yep i had a car try box me in out of anger as I pulled into overtaking lane with a LOT of space, as soon as I indicated and moved into lane he put foot to the floor and was probably 4 car lengths behind as i pulled back to driving lane. He then proceeded to gesture at me out the window and block the middle lane so i was stuck behind another slowbie in front of me in lane...I wasnt realy interested in engaging so i switched to S on gearbox and flew away from him...some people..

CiniO · 14-04-2014 7:27pm

Skittlebrau wrote: »

Exactly.. I would agree 30kph is slow in a 50kph zone. I also think 80kph is slow (and more dangerous) in a 100 or 120 kph zone.

But the problem is... that's just my opinion.

How can 80km/h be slow in 100 or 120km/h zones, even though this 80km/h is maximum allowed speed for many vehicles?

Holsten · 14-04-2014 7:31pm

I undertake in the bus lanes all the time as most people are too stupid to use them.

You're meant to keep left when driving, and when the lanes are open they are the left lane so you should be in them unless overtaking.

Skittlebrau · 14-04-2014 7:32pm

CiniO wrote: »

How can 80km/h be slow in 100 or 120km/h zones, even though this 80km/h is maximum allowed speed for many vehicles?

???

If a car is sitting in the middle lane (of 3) on a 120k motorway and only doing 80k, I'd say its going slow. Don't think I'd be the only one either.

CiniO · 14-04-2014 7:36pm

K.Flyer wrote: »

Well seeing as I have been driving on Irish and European roads with a full clean driving licence for over 32 years and I have never been pulled by the Garda for my manner of driving or ever received a fine for it, I imagine my interpretation of the RotR and how to apply them must be just fine.

See over last 7 years in Ireland I've been speeding everyday, and guess what - I've never been pulled by Garda for my manner of driving or ever received a fine for it.
Does it make speeding legal?

Your interpretation of law and RotR is incorrect.
Fact that you weren't fined for driving like it, is another matter.

CiniO · 14-04-2014 7:39pm

Skittlebrau wrote: »

???

If a car is sitting in the middle lane (of 3) on a 120k motorway and only doing 80k, I'd say its going slow. Don't think I'd be the only one either.

Every car or van towing a trailer is limited by law to 80km/h (also on motorways).
So if that's their maximum permitted speed, that can't be considered as slow or dangerous.

CiniO · 14-04-2014 7:50pm

djimi wrote: »

You sure about that?

I wouldn't bet my house on it, but I'm pretty sure that's what the law says.

Im pretty sure that buses can go any speed they want (within the limits obviously) irrespective of what the cars in the driving lanes are doing. While bus lanes are operational they are not part of the main driving carraigeway (ie private cars are not allowed to use them), so I have no idea why normal rules of undertaking would apply? If anything, a bus lane would follow the same rules as a slip road (seperate carraigeway on which its perfectly legal to pass cars that are on your right).

All that would be true, if - as you say - bus lanes would be treated as separate carriageway.

But it isn't.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html

"carriageway" means that part of a roadway on which traffic proceeds in a single direction;

"roadway" has the meaning assigned to it by section 2(1) of the Act of 1993;

From Act of 1993

“roadway” means that portion of a road which is provided primarily for the use of vehicles;

My understanding of it, is that bus lane is definitely part of carriageway.
I also can't see anything indicating what you said that slip roads would be separate carriageway. Unless there is anything separately defined somewhere else, I think they are also part of carriageway, and therefore undertaking on slipways is also illegal.

And returning to bus lanes here's the definition:

"bus lane" and "contra flow bus lane" have the meanings assigned to them in article 32;

32. (1) A bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 028 or traffic sign number RUS 029 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024, and a contra flow bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 030 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024.

(2) A person shall not enter a bus lane with a vehicle other than an omnibus or a pedal cycle during the period of operation of the bus lane which shall be indicated on an information plate.

(3) A person shall not enter a contra flow bus lane with a vehicle other than an omnibus.

(4) A person shall not enter a bus only street with a vehicle other than an omnibus except for the purpose of access.

(5) ( a ) Sub-articles (1) and (2) shall not apply to a vehicle crossing a with flow bus lane or a contra flow bus lane solely for the purpose—
(i) of entering or leaving premises or property adjacent to such a bus lane, or
(ii) of entering or leaving a road inset adjacent to such a bus lane in order to load or unload goods.
( b ) Sub-article (2) shall not apply to a taxi or a wheelchair accessible taxi which is being used in the course of business.

K.Flyer · 14-04-2014 8:35pm

CiniO wrote: »

See over last 7 years in Ireland I've been speeding everyday, and guess what - I've never been pulled by Garda for my manner of driving or ever received a fine for it.
Does it make speeding legal?

Your interpretation of law and RotR is incorrect.
Fact that you weren't fined for driving like it, is another matter.

Do you not think telling people what they should or should not be doing while they are driving, while you admit to "speeding every day" just a tad hypocritical.

CiniO · 14-04-2014 8:49pm

K.Flyer wrote: »

Do you not think telling people what they should or should not be doing while they are driving, while you admit to "speeding every day" somewhat hypocritical.

We are discussing the law here.
I'm not telling anyone what to do or not do. And I never did. Everyone has their own brain to decide what to do.
I'm just telling you, that your understanding of undertaking is incorrect.

Skittlebrau · 14-04-2014 8:54pm

CiniO wrote: »

Every car or van towing a trailer is limited by law to 80km/h (also on motorways).
So if that's their maximum permitted speed, that can't be considered as slow or dangerous.

You asked for an example of when 80k can be slow and I gave you one.

I get your point but a car towing a trailer is doing 80k in the overtaking lane on a motorway is possibly one of the most dangerous things I've ever heard of. And I would also argue still constitute 'slow' notwithstanding the fact that its the max that its permitted. It's the speed of the traffic in the lane that's relevant not an individual vehicle.

CiniO · 14-04-2014 10:00pm

Skittlebrau wrote: »

You asked for an example of when 80k can be slow and I gave you one.

I get your point but a car towing a trailer is doing 80k in the overtaking lane on a motorway is possibly one of the most dangerous things I've ever heard of. And I would also argue still constitute 'slow' notwithstanding the fact that its the max that its permitted. It's the speed of the traffic in the lane that's relevant not an individual vehicle.

You said that 80km/h on 120km/h roads were slow and dangerous, and used it as example what slow moving traffic is.

I disagree.
On motorways limits are:
-car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
-trucks (rigid and artic) - 90km/h
-buses - 100km/h.
-everything else - 120km/h

On double carriageways:
-car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
-trucks (rigid and artic) - 80km/h
-buses - 100km/h.
-everything else - 100km/h

On national roads:
-car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
-trucks (rigid and artic) - 80km/h
-buses - 80km/h.
-everything else - 100km/h

On regional and local roads:
-car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
-trucks (rigid and artic) - 80km/h
-buses - 80km/h.
-everything else - 80km/h

So my point is, that speeds of 80km/h can't be treated as slow moving traffic, even on motorways.

Indeed - cars and vans towing trailers and trucks are prohibited to use most right lane of motorways, which effectively prohibits them to overtake on 2 lane motorways.
But on 3 lane motorways they can use middle lane for overtaking.
If someone after overtaking fails to return to left driving lane at 80km/h, then undertaking him just because he is doing 80km/h is not legal, as that vehicle can't be considered to be "slow moving traffic".

Skittlebrau · 14-04-2014 10:12pm

CiniO wrote: »

You said that 80km/h on 120km/h roads were slow and dangerous, and used it as example what slow moving traffic is.

I disagree.
On motorways limits are:
-car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
-trucks (rigid and artic) - 90km/h
-buses - 100km/h.
-everything else - 120km/h

On double carriageways:
-car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
-trucks (rigid and artic) - 80km/h
-buses - 100km/h.
-everything else - 100km/h

On national roads:
-car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
-trucks (rigid and artic) - 80km/h
-buses - 80km/h.
-everything else - 100km/h

On regional and local roads:
-car and vans towing trailers - 80km/h
-trucks (rigid and artic) - 80km/h
-buses - 80km/h.
-everything else - 80km/h

So my point is, that speeds of 80km/h can't be treated as slow moving traffic, even on motorways.

Indeed - cars and vans towing trailers and trucks are prohibited to use most right lane of motorways, which effectively prohibits them to overtake on 2 lane motorways.
But on 3 lane motorways they can use middle lane for overtaking.
If someone after overtaking fails to return to left driving lane at 80km/h, then undertaking him just because he is doing 80km/h is not legal, as that vehicle can't be considered to be "slow moving traffic".

You're really being impressively obtuse at this stage. I never said that all instances of 80k on a motorway is slow but gave an example of when it can be.

I also disagree with your last sentence. I think it can still be considered to be slow moving notwithstanding that it isn't permitted to go any faster. If you can point me to some caselaw that says otherwise please do. Otherwise it's just your interpretation.

enda1 · 14-04-2014 10:17pm

In my opinion slow is anything below the posted speed limit. So vroom vroom see ye if yer in the RH lane.

CiniO · 14-04-2014 10:19pm

Skittlebrau wrote: »

You're really being impressively obtuse at this stage. I never said that all instances of 80k on a motorway is slow but gave an example of when it can be.

I also disagree with your last sentence. I think it can still be considered to be slow moving notwithstanding that it isn't permitted to go any faster. If you can point me to some caselaw that says otherwise please do. Otherwise it's just your interpretation.

Of course it's just my own interpretation, but hardly anyone is going to classify 80km/h on motorway as slow moving traffic.

enda1 · 14-04-2014 10:26pm

CiniO wrote: »

Of course it's just my own interpretation, but hardly anyone is going to classify 80km/h on motorway as slow moving traffic.

Speed is relative. If it's slower than me it's slow.

Vroom vroom

slimjimmc · 15-04-2014 1:30am

Skittlebrau wrote: »

You're really being impressively obtuse at this stage. I never said that all instances of 80k on a motorway is slow but gave an example of when it can be.

I also disagree with your last sentence. I think it can still be considered to be slow moving notwithstanding that it isn't permitted to go any faster. If you can point me to some caselaw that says otherwise please do. Otherwise it's just your interpretation.

SI 294/964 defines a "slow vehicle" as

(a) a vehicle which is not mechanically propelled,
(b) a mechanically propelled vehicle to which an ordinary speed limit of not more than twenty miles per hour applies, and
(c) a mechanically propelled vehicle so constructed or adapted as to be incapable of exceeding 24 miles per hour on a level road ;

While that is not a definition of "slow moving traffic" I suggest it's a good indicator that the law considers "slow" as being at the lower end of the speed scale.

visual · 15-04-2014 5:12am

CiniO wrote: »

Of course it's just my own interpretation, but hardly anyone is going to classify 80km/h on motorway as slow moving traffic.

Its slow enough that if they aren't in the driving lane that I give them a flash of the lights as I approch and a beep of the horn if they wont yeild

Cookie_Monster · 15-04-2014 9:02am

slimjimmc wrote: »

SI 294/964 defines a "slow vehicle" as

While that is not a definition of "slow moving traffic" I suggest it's a good indicator that the law considers "slow" as being at the lower end of the speed scale.

out of date though. Miles per hour is no longer a valid unit so unless there is a km/h update I'd consider that redundant and hence irrelevant.

CiniO wrote: »

Of course it's just my own interpretation, but hardly anyone is going to classify 80km/h on motorway as slow moving traffic.

everyone is going to consider that slow, relatively speaking. On a motorway 80 is certainly slow.
On a national road where you're likely to find cyclists or tractors etc 20 would be considered slow but I'd no longer consider 80 slow in comparison to what you could expect on the road.

djimi · 15-04-2014 9:31am

CiniO wrote: »

All that would be true, if - as you say - bus lanes would be treated as separate carriageway.

But it isn't.

My understanding of it, is that bus lane is definitely part of carriageway.
I also can't see anything indicating what you said that slip roads would be separate carriageway. Unless there is anything separately defined somewhere else, I think they are also part of carriageway, and therefore undertaking on slipways is also illegal.

And returning to bus lanes here's the definition:

From your definitions, a roadway is a portion of the road that is provided for the use of vehicles, and seeing as how general traffic is not permitted to use an active buslane, I think its fair enough to say that it is a sepereate roadway/carraigeway (I might have the terminology wrong) from the main driving lanes.

I cant remember where I have seen it written and I dont have time/inclination to go searching through the traffic act, but I am 99% certain that it is not illegal to "undertake" on a slip road.

djimi · 15-04-2014 9:35am

CiniO wrote: »

Of course it's just my own interpretation, but hardly anyone is going to classify 80km/h on motorway as slow moving traffic.

The key to the defintion is slow moving traffic. If there is a line of cars in the right hand lane doing 80km/h and a line of cars in the left hand lane doing 85km/h then I have no doubt that for the purpose of this definition that would be considered to be slow moving traffic on a motorway, and as such nobody in the left lane is going to be prosecuted for passing out those in the right hand lane.

Maybe thats just my interpretation, but its clear as day in my head what slow moving traffic means, and Im pretty sure anyone who drives on any kind of regular basis also knows what it means!

Yakuza · 15-04-2014 11:02am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

out of date though. Miles per hour is no longer a valid unit so unless there is a km/h update I'd consider that redundant and hence irrelevant.

Another deliberately obtuse comment. Unless that statute has been replaced by a more modern version, it's still on the books. The law is still the law regardless of whether the units are miles per hour, feet per second or astronomical units per solar year.

djimi · 15-04-2014 11:42am

Yakuza wrote: »

Another deliberately obtuse comment. Unless that statute has been replaced by a more modern version, it's still on the books. The law is still the law regardless of whether the units are miles per hour, feet per second or astronomical units per solar year.

That definition is of a slow vehicle, not slow moving traffic. Its not the same thing.

degsie · 15-04-2014 11:50am

I love bus lanes and always use then outside the posted hours. I find it gets me from A to B much faster

greenflash · 15-04-2014 12:45pm

degsie wrote: »

I love bus lanes and always use then outside the posted hours. I find it gets me from A to B much faster

Yep. You can't beat the feeling of hopping into the bus lane on the Malahide Road at 19.00.01 and cruising past untold amount of stop start stress heads.

What bugs the crap out of me though is when impatient, selfish little bastards pop into the bus lane 300 metres before it changes into a turn left lane and speed past other cars further up with their indicators on, just about to move left. This happens approx every 2.4 seconds at Clarehall.

whomitconcerns · 15-04-2014 12:50pm

greenflash wrote: »

Yep. You can't beat the feeling of hopping into the bus lane on the Malahide Road at 19.00.01 and cruising past untold amount of stop start stress heads.

What bugs the crap out of me though is when impatient, selfish little bastards pop into the bus lane 300 metres before it changes into a turn left lane and speed past other cars further up with their indicators on, just about to move left. This happens approx every 2.4 seconds at Clarehall.

And thats a 24/7 buslane at that point anyway(up to the left slip)....

greenflash · 15-04-2014 12:55pm

whomitconcerns wrote: »

And thats a 24/7 buslane at that point anyway(up to the left slip)....

I know!

First part of the post refers to homeward journeys coming from town, when I work there. Second part is just what seriously annoys me on the other side of the road when I go shopping.

Muahahaha · 15-04-2014 1:59pm

degsie wrote: »

I love bus lanes and always use then outside the posted hours. I find it gets me from A to B much faster

Tell me about it, bus lanes are 50% of the reason why I ride a motorbike into town rather than take the car. I know motorbikes aren't supposed to be in a bus lane but once you're not acting the maggot the Gardai don't bother you. I've done my commute in a car and apart from it taking almost twice as long it is the gear grinding and constant braking that wreck my head, also the drivers who take an age to hit the clutch, get into gear and move off, commuting in rush hour is not driving, it's torturing yourself. With the bus lanes on a bike you avoid all that at any time of day, it's well worth the odd soaking I might get

crc · 15-04-2014 2:13pm

greenflash wrote: »

What bugs the crap out of me though is when impatient, selfish little bastards pop into the bus lane 300 metres before it changes into a turn left lane and speed past other cars further up with their indicators on, just about to move left. This happens approx every 2.4 seconds at Clarehall.

Every day without fail, approaching Dennehy's Cross in Cork (northbound), drivers move left into the bus lane early rather than stay in the correct lane (i.e. the one just to the right of the bus lane).

See here on Google Maps

The right lane veers left at the end of the bus lane, so the correct procedure is to stay in this lane (if going straight on or turning left at the cross).

TheChizler · 15-04-2014 7:04pm

crc wrote: »

Every day without fail, approaching Dennehy's Cross in Cork (northbound), drivers move left into the bus lane early rather than stay in the correct lane (i.e. the one just to the right of the bus lane).

See here on Google Maps

The right lane veers left at the end of the bus lane, so the correct procedure is to stay in this lane (if going straight on or turning left at the cross).

This junction is frustrating! I was using the road correctly during bus lane hours the other day and had to slam on to avoid a taxi failing to yield and going into the side of me.

Was kind of annoyed that I did avoid the crash as I would have been in the right, and we weren't going too fast so there would have been no injuries, but a sense of righteousness wouldn't have been worth the hassle, and also going by the fact that I DID manage to avoid an accident means that if I left it happen it would really have been partially my fault.

On the slow traffic/undertaking thing, impossible to define a number, but I'd say slow is a speed at which it's unlikely there's be too much damage if someone f##ked up and did something stupid when you're overtaking on the left.

Completely disagree that 80 km/h could ever be objectively considered slow. The law says slow, which would imply an absolute figure, not relative. This absolute figure should be the same regardless of surrounding traffic and limits. If it did mean relative then, speed limits aside, overtaking on the left would be legal if you came up to someone doing 120 while doing 200 km/h for instance, how ridiculous would that be?

greenflash · 16-04-2014 12:18am

crc wrote: »

Every day without fail, approaching Dennehy's Cross in Cork (northbound), drivers move left into the bus lane early rather than stay in the correct lane (i.e. the one just to the right of the bus lane).

See here on Google Maps

The right lane veers left at the end of the bus lane, so the correct procedure is to stay in this lane (if going straight on or turning left at the cross).

I know it well as my in-laws live just off Model Farm Road. Completely agree with you and what makes it worse is both my in-laws drive around the area and neither of them has ever had a driving lesson or taken a test.

Finally, as an aside, does anyone know if using indicators on roundabouts is illegal in Cork?

LFCFan · 16-04-2014 8:59am

On Dorset street, turning left on to Whitworth Road there is a Bus Lane and it only turns in to a left turn lane at around 50 metres to the turn but there is frequently 100 metres of traffic turning left. You have no choice but to move in to the bus lane early or you end up trying to pull in to the left lane when the filter light is red and the regular light is green with the cars behind beeping and giving you the finger. Sometimes it's impossible to do the right thing on Irish roads because of they way they are laid out and the right things quickly becomes to wrong thing in the eyes of all the traffic around you. I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands of examples of this type of thing around the country.

highdef · 16-04-2014 10:27am

LFCFan wrote: »

On Dorset street, turning left on to Whitworth Road there is a Bus Lane and it only turns in to a left turn lane at around 50 metres to the turn but there is frequently 100 metres of traffic turning left. You have no choice but to move in to the bus lane early or you end up trying to pull in to the left lane when the filter light is red and the regular light is green with the cars behind beeping and giving you the finger. Sometimes it's impossible to do the right thing on Irish roads because of they way they are laid out and the right things quickly becomes to wrong thing in the eyes of all the traffic around you. I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands of examples of this type of thing around the country.

I simply ignore the finger pointing and beeping horns. Why should you or I break the law for the sake of others and be at risk of punishment just to please others? If you are in the right lane indicating left, where the bus lane ends, you are doing the correct thing. The fact that there is a queue of traffic sitting in the bus lane is irrelevant. Whether it is full of cars or completely empty, you should only begin to try to enter the left lane AFTER the bus lane ends.

I do this all the time (when the bus lane is not open to the public) without fail. I have been questioned by Gardai twice when performing this action whist awaiting to get into the left turn lane onto South Circular Road from the N4/R148/Con Colbert Road inbound. They said I could cause an accident by being stopped in the carriageway awaiting entry to the slip lane. In both instances, I was told that I should join the queue in the 24 hour bus lane. And in both instances, I asked for name, badge number and what he said in writing and signed by him. The first time I did this, the guard told me to pull in further up, at which point he performed a meticulous search of my car looking for some fault which he did not find. The second time, the guards just got back in their van and drove off.

16-04-2014 10:34am

Muahahaha wrote: »

Tell me about it, bus lanes are 50% of the reason why I ride a motorbike into town rather than take the car. I know motorbikes aren't supposed to be in a bus lane but once you're not acting the maggot the Gardai don't bother you. I've done my commute in a car and apart from it taking almost twice as long it is the gear grinding and constant braking that wreck my head, also the drivers who take an age to hit the clutch, get into gear and move off, commuting in rush hour is not driving, it's torturing yourself. With the bus lanes on a bike you avoid all that at any time of day, it's well worth the odd soaking I might get

That's exactly the reason i have just gotten my bike leaner permit, i love my car but commuting from one side of Dublin to the other for 3 years has put me on the brink. Will use a bike to commute and my car for when i can actually enjoy it.

robz150 · 16-04-2014 12:03pm

Also, why oh why do some drivers not use the Bus Lanes when their open. Really annoys me when I see a near crash as a driver indicates right and swerves at the last minute to switch back in to the right hand lane to avoid a bus lane that is open to everyone. In particular the Oscar Traynor road in Coolock which is not a bus lane between 10:00 and 12:00. Always get the evil eyes when I drive in this bus lane at this time. Even had a nice man in a landscape business 4x4 swerve towards me as I went past in the bus lane. He got out at the next lights to ask me 'Did I think I was great driving in the bus lane' I informed it was open to cars at the specific times but that only made his face more red and he wanted to fight

Idiot

Undertaking in bus lanes.

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