A YES vote for Lisbon is a YES vote for ushering in the New World Order.

oscarBravo wrote: »

The bit you're missing is that we as a nation have an input into the drafting of those laws, and we have a veto over many areas of lawmaking. In practice, the drafting of European legislation is a process of consensus, so yes: we have to implement EU legislation, but that's actually not a problem, because it's legislation that we've pretty much negotiated in the first instance.

I understand the point your making but I don’t think Im missing anything we are talking about the status quo if and when Lisbon is passed which will be different to things as they stand now, maybe I could have made my point a little clearer, but do we still have this veto if Lisbon is passed and primarily laws are decided on a QMV basis? What if we don’t agree with something and get outvoted? On the basis we are “smaller” which when you get through the red tape of QMV is really what it boils down to. If we get outvoted we still have to suck it up if we like it or not.
In my opinion QMV is an attempted power-grab by the bigger states, with EU law-making in the Council of Ministers based henceforth( If Lisbon is passed) primarily on population size as in any unified state, which greatly increases the power of the big EU members with large populations whilst reducing the voting weight of Ireland and the other smaller states. Germany’s voting weight for example in making EU laws would go from 8% to 16.7% as a result, while Ireland’s would halve to 0.9% (Art.16 TEU).
As things stand decisions on a vide range of issues in the council of the European Union (ministers) require unanimity ( Nice treaty) but the extensions in the proposed Lisbon treaty allow decisions to be made through qualified majority voting, on a vide range of issues.
I know the requirement for laws to be passed re: Lisbon QMV…

To pass: Majority of countries (55% or 72%) representing 65% of the population or condition to block not met
To block: At least 4 countries against the proposal or in cases where, under the Treaties, not all members participate the minimum number of members representing more than 35% of the population of the participating Member States, plus one member are against the proposal

In my opinion QMV is still not good for Ireland on the basis if we are the only country who disagree with something and we can not get other countries on side to meet the conditions to block the legislation, then we get lumped with it anyway.
I am aware the current voting system of unanimity will stay in place until 2014 and that “double majority” rules are also part of the proposed Lisbon treaty. Im also aware of the “Ioannina” agreement which is being updated and “should” take affect in 2014, if Lisbon is passed.

Some of these policy areas are currently covered by unanimity voting- Nice treaty. All of these policy areas will come under QMV-Lisbon treaty, should it come into force albeit between 2014 and 2017.

Freedom to establish a business-47s2-TFEU
Self employment access rights-47s2-TFEU
Freedom security and justice-cooperation and evaluation-61c,g TFEU
Border controls-62 TFEU
Asylum-63 TFEU
Immigration-69a TFEU
Transport-71s2 TFEU
Culture-151 TFEU
Social security-42 TFEU
Criminal judicial cooperation-69a TFEU
Criminal Law-69b TFEU
Common Defense policy- 28e TEU
General economic interest services- 16 TFEU
Intellectual property- 97a TFEU
Sport- 149 TFEU
Energy- 176a TFEU
Tourism-176b TFEU
Civil protection- 176c TFEU
Economic and social committee-256a TFEU
The EU Budget- 269 TFEU

That’s only some of them, is a big leap in policy from the original EC purpose of economic cooperation and prevention of wars. In my opinion the above issues should not be decided on a QMV basis, no way. In my opinion the above social and cultural issues should be a matter for individual countries only and shouldn’t even be part of any EU mandate whatsoever. They EU should have 0 power on these issues.

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're entitled to that view, but - with the greatest of respect - it's a view founded in ignorance of how the EU actually works.

In fairness that’s your opinion of which you are entitled, however, mine would be different.

oscarBravo wrote: »

It actually is, just not in anything like the context you mean. Which goes to show just how important it is to, y'know, read the document you're arguing about.

People in the yes camp are great at telling the rest of us to go read the treaty yet a vast amount of the people in the yes camp have not read the treaty, like, the people who are supposed to be running the country, sort of negates that argument really doesn’t it. I actually have read parts of it, the parts I would be concerned about, maybe you could explain what the definition of federal refers to as outlined in the treaty please.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Less than a third of our laws originate in the EU, and those that do have been agreed by us through the legislative process in the first place.

Tell me this: how much EU legislation has been implemented in this country since 1973 that has been actively harmful to us? That ability was removed in 1973. We can reinstate that ability anytime we want, by withdrawing completely from the EU. I personally don't think it's worth it.

With all due respect we are not talking about which laws have or have not “harmed” Ireland that question is irrelevant. If Lisbon is passed what percentage of our laws will be agreed through the legislative process of the EU seen as though this treaty covers such a wide array of policy areas? Maybe you could explain how QMV is the interest of Ireland please as laws will be primarily passed and decided on many important issues in this way, (after 2014) should Lisbon come into force.

oscarBravo wrote: »

That ability was removed in 1973. We can reinstate that ability anytime we want, by withdrawing completely from the EU. I personally don't think it's worth it.

Point taken.