Irish Rail strike days

devnull · 22-08-2014 10:04pm

cdebru wrote: »

The staff have already taken cuts in 2012 on the promise that they wouldn't be asked again, but the company was back looking for more 12 months later.

The average pay in Irish Rail has not changed much in the last few years.

Whatever the reasons, that is unacceptable when the company have suffered such a loss of income as they have.

devnull · 22-08-2014 10:05pm

cdebru wrote: »

You think they are going to the bother of tendering to just give them to DB and BE anyway ?

Nobody will be 'given' contracts.

Whoever submits the best, fully costed bid should and will win.

end of the road · 22-08-2014 10:07pm

Kamik wrote: »

I would naturally have moved if a wheelchair appeared on the train, that goes without saying.
But the space remained vacant all the way to dublin on a crowded train and i was the only man with a buggy on board AFAIK.

did you make a complaint to irish rail? was it a member of train staff or railway staff who asked you to move? if it wasn't then your under no obligation to move, if it was then you are under an obligation to comply. as said a wheelchair space on a train is for wheelchairs and they will get the priority. the situation with dublin bus however is different it seems.

Kamik · 22-08-2014 10:16pm

end of the road wrote: »

did you make a complaint to irish rail? was it a member of train staff or railway staff who asked you to move? if it wasn't then your under no obligation to move, if it was then you are under an obligation to comply. as said a wheelchair space on a train if for wheelchairs and they will get the priority. the situation with dublin bus however is different it seems.

It was the cafeteria staff who told me i had to vacate the space.
I did not complain to either them or Irish Rail. although i did consider the H & S authority.
If they believe a child in a buggy is better left out in the door entrance than the safety of a vacant floor space within a carriage i would prefer not to use their services again ever!

Hilly Bill · 22-08-2014 10:18pm

end of the road wrote: »

the staff have taken a lot of cuts via various means. how much more should they agree to? until they are on either minimum or below minimum wage? what happens if they take more cuts and thats not enough?

They shouldnt agree to any cuts but the reality is that IR can make as many cuts to conditions and wages as they can legally do and staff cant really do anything about it. Its a case of either accepting it or find a different job. IR work to their own conditions and not to the demands of its staff. Staff can protest as much as they want and hopefully get what they want but the fact is that they work for IR and not the other way round. After these round of strikes, they will be down a weeks wage which will be nearly the first years amount of cut and the cuts will still be implemented.

end of the road · 22-08-2014 10:20pm

devnull wrote: »

It's clear though that the rail fans have a serious chip on their shoulder about buses

no, just those (not saying you) who are of the opinion that because we have motor ways and busses we should shut and rip up the railway so they most likely can cream more money. the exact same mindset as the 50s.

devnull wrote: »

In case you hadn't noticed, the country hasn't been in the best of states over the last few years and all elements of the pubic sector and semi-states have had to take cuts in subvention and funding because of that. It's not like the country is in an economic boom and there is cash flowing around like there is no tomorrow unlike any other time in the countries history like there was 10 years ago.

yes, but they can find it to give to health chiefs and use "contractual obligations" but can't realize public services need paying for in full.

devnull wrote: »

Staff need to take more of a cut, I don't think 1.7% is unreasonable for someone on 56k. Many people in their jobs on far lower pay have had to face bigger cuts than that. Less staffing costs means more money to be spent elsewhere. The average staffing costs is still the same as it was several years ago, even just before the financial crisis. That cannot be right.

staff as i said have taken cuts in many ways. apart from management, only those in safety critical jobs ern 56 k, that amount is payed for a reason. the problem is staff have been made redundant in large numbers however in the wrong places. few ticket checkers, unmaned stations, but more management then ever before, thats why costs haven't gone down if they haven't.

devnull wrote: »

I haven't seen much dart overcrowding recently and eight car rains are plentiful in peak now, the only bad overcrowding I've seen was on Wednesday and that was down to the fact that there was serious line disruption caused by a broken down train and there being about 45 minutes between peak northbound trains which caused three trains worth all cramming onto one.

thats due to summer holidays though, and how many have left?

devnull wrote: »

I agree with you about the never ending circle, if the staff don't take a fair share of the cuts we will end up with a never ending circle of reduction of passengers, fare rises and service cuts which will go round and round and round since the company will have no choice but to do this since the staff are not willing to take any of the hit themselves.

but whats a fair share. how much should they take? what if they take the fair share and the company wants more? how much should they go? until they are on minimum wage or below? all well and good saying how the staff should take a fair share (the amount which is different from person to person) but the business needs to be grown and it needs to be invested in to be competitive with the motor way. its politics that leads to undermining any cost savings.

Hilly Bill · 22-08-2014 10:24pm

Kamik wrote: »

It was the cafeteria staff who told me i had to vacate the space.
I did not complain to either them or Irish Rail. although i did consider the H & S authority.
If they believe a child in a buggy is better left out in the door entrance than the safety of a vacant floor space within a carriage i would prefer not to use their services again ever!

Catering staff cant ask you to move.

end of the road · 22-08-2014 10:25pm

Kamik wrote: »

It was the cafeteria staff who told me i had to vacate the space.
I did not complain to either them or Irish Rail. although i did consider the H & S authority.
If they believe a child in a buggy is better left out in the door entrance than the safety of a vacant floor space within a carriage i would prefer not to use their services again ever!

they believe you should follow the rules. if your in a wheelchair space and a member of staff asks you to move then you do so

devnull · 22-08-2014 10:27pm

A wheelchair should always get priority, sorry but I have no sympathy for anyone who can't deal with that. Buggies can be folded up, wheelchairs can't.

end of the road · 22-08-2014 10:28pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Catering staff cant ask you to move.

they probably could when they were direct employees of IE though. now they certainly have no authority being a private company

Hilly Bill · 22-08-2014 10:30pm

end of the road wrote: »

they probably could when they were direct employees of IE though. now they certainly have no authority being a private company

They couldnt even then unless you were obstructing them.

cdebru · 22-08-2014 10:30pm

devnull wrote: »

The average pay in Irish Rail has not changed much in the last few years.

Whatever the reasons, that is unacceptable when the company have suffered such a loss of income as they have.

They took cuts in pay and conditions, sick leave, holidays, overtime. They also had redundancies and productivity improvements to cover for the reductions in staff numbers.

devnull · 22-08-2014 10:35pm

cdebru wrote: »

They took cuts in pay and conditions, sick leave, holidays, overtime. They also had redundancies and productivity improvements to cover for the reductions in staff numbers.

Yet still, to this day, it has had little effect on the average cost per staff member to the company and that has to be addressed so it makes some real savings that will show in the accounts.

I do agree that there needs to be an examination of staffing numbers in each department, since using Irish Rail every work day, it is obvious in some areas they are overstaffed and in other areas they are understaffed.

Just look at the number of unstaffed stations. I've been at one or two late at night and there is not a soul around and if I was a young woman I'd be quite nervous about it.

cdebru · 22-08-2014 10:41pm

devnull wrote: »

Yet still, to this day, it has had little effect on the average cost per staff member to the company and that has to be addressed so it makes some real savings that will show in the accounts.

I do agree that there needs to be an examination of staffing numbers in each department, since using Irish Rail every work day, it is obvious in some areas they are overstaffed and in other areas they are understaffed.

Just look at the number of unstaffed stations. I've been at one or two late at night and there is not a soul around and if I was a young woman I'd be quite nervous about it.

But IE has reduced staff by 2200 in the last 12 years 450 in the last 2 years you can't just discount that , also just looking at averages doesn't tell you the story as you well know, if some peoples cost is reducing while others are increasing they can just cancel each other out, the simple fact is that the staff have overseen a reduction in costs of oblver 25% you can't just dismiss that it could not have happened without staff hard work and cooperation.

Kamik · 22-08-2014 10:41pm

devnull wrote: »

A wheelchair should always get priority, sorry but I have no sympathy for anyone who can't deal with that. Buggies can be folded up, wheelchairs can't.

Sympathy i can do without. of course wheelchairs can be folded, i done that often.
and i have absolutely no problem giving priority to wheelchairs.
The fact is that the sign on the window read something like...
"This space is for wheelchair use if one should need it"

Copyerselveson · 22-08-2014 10:43pm

Unstaffed stations do save significant sums of money. Do we spend money on staffing the stations?

Infini · 22-08-2014 11:13pm

Copyerselveson wrote: »

Unstaffed stations do save significant sums of money. Do we spend money on staffing the stations?

Not really saving much. Revenue at some booking offices has collapsed but the problem here is that theyve made them look obsolete by not upgrading them to modern standards with leap card machines and cc machines. That and putting machines more prominently in stations means people go to them because they cant pay with cc or top up their cards at the desk or even realise its there and it looks like the b/o isnt worth manning. Management forget that having a guy there is also security and responsible for cleaning as well and taking them out means they got to pay private security and cleaning companies money instead to open/close and clean the station.

Since theres noone there people can just walk through without paying even with all the new ticketchekers they robbed from other places theres just not enough to cover enough to enforce effectiely. The Dart on the northside and the maynooth lines for example have been a freeforall for ages now cause of this. While I can agree manning every single station might not be viable you cant have most of the dart line unmanned either its just as unviable.

Hilly Bill · 22-08-2014 11:15pm

The strike looks like a good thing for passengers

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2014/08/22/irish-rail-strike-to-save-commuters-billions-in-travel-expenses/.

mickydoomsux · 22-08-2014 11:19pm

Infini2 wrote: »

Not really saving much. Revenue at some booking offices has collapsed but the problem here is that theyve made them look obsolete by not upgrading them to modern standards with leap card machines and cc machines. That and putting machines more prominently in stations means people go to them because they cant pay with cc or top up their cards at the desk or even realise its there and it looks like the b/o isnt worth manning. Management forget that having a guy there is also security and responsible for cleaning as well and taking them out means they got to pay private security and cleaning companies money instead to open/close and clean the station.

Since theres noone there people can just walk through without paying even with all the new ticketchekers they robbed from other places theres just not enough to cover enough to enforce effectiely. The Dart on the northside and the maynooth lines for example have been a freeforall for ages now cause of this. While I can agree manning every single station might not be viable you cant have most of the dart line unmanned either its just as unviable.

The line I work on has checkers on about 20% of services, the rest is a free for all. Hard to know how much difference it makes when the majority of people have passes anyway.

Also, do the people who think that the employees should take wage cuts because of dwindling passengers numbers think the same staff should get raises tied to rising passenger numbers? That's the only way that argument can make sense, right?

Copyerselveson · 22-08-2014 11:20pm

If there's an easy way to walk onto the platform without paying and walk off at the destination without showing a valid ticket or pass then the design and implementation isn't right.

Unmanned stations with cc machines, barriers and cctv can work, in fact most stations here in London are unmanned for a lot of the day apart from peak times.
CCTV and customer intercoms help with the security aspect, but revenue can't afford to be lost and sadly we can't rely on the honesty of a lot of people.

RPOs in plain clothes on the trains aren't a luxury, they are a necessity as someone will always try and buck the system. That's why high penalty fares and if necessary prosecutions are needed to ram home the message that while you can ride the railway, you won't take the railway for a ride.

Banjoxed · 22-08-2014 11:23pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Hard to know how much difference it makes when the majority of people have passes anyway.

The majority? Is that backed up with stats of some kind, at all?

Infini · 22-08-2014 11:30pm

Copyerselveson wrote: »

If there's an easy way to walk onto the platform without paying and walk off at the destination without showing a valid ticket or pass then the design and implementation isn't right.

Unmanned stations with cc machines, barriers and cctv can work, in fact most stations here in London are unmanned for a lot of the day apart from peak times.
CCTV and customer intercoms help with the security aspect, but revenue can't afford to be lost and sadly we can't rely on the honesty of a lot of people.

RPOs in plain clothes on the trains aren't a luxury, they are a necessity as someone will always try and buck the system. That's why high penalty fares and if necessary prosecutions are needed to ram home the message that while you can ride the railway, you won't take the railway for a ride.

While you bring up a valid point the biggest difference is that england has rail cops we dont. They can fine people on the spot and arrest them on the spot we have to call guards and wait for them. Hell theyre running police trains disguised as normal trains in some places to catch gurriers messing on the line there. Costs them money to have them there which here the best option would be to keep the stations manned.

Hilly Bill · 22-08-2014 11:50pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

The majority? Is that backed up with stats of some kind, at all?

It does seem that the paying passenger is in a minority.

kingshankly · 23-08-2014 12:06am

Most of the staff don't want to strike in fairness but obviously won't pass pickets
I voted in favour of the pay cuts as I didn't think it was too extreme in comparison to what people have endured
It will cause a lot of in house fighting as i know some folk will not want to lose 5 days pay which adds up to money which will be lost with the pay cut
Hopefully after Monday it will be sorted by the time the next one comes around
49% of us drivers in siptu voted in favour of pay cuts so it's not like we are being ignorant and greedy
Finally hope you all have a safe journey Monday by which ever means you chose

devnull · 23-08-2014 8:01am

I was in Malahide a while back and it was quite late and it actually was IMPOSSIBLE to buy a ticket there, since the main station with the office, and ticket machines and validators was LOCKED UP!!!

A small wooden gate was open to allow access to the platform, but no access to ticket machines at any point and the purple validator screen wasn't on so impossible to tag on and off with leap either.

Seeing as most of the pax would be going to stations that are unstaffed and have gates fully open, anyone who got on that train late at night would have not paid. How can that be sustainable? It's bad enough to have stations unstaffed, it's quite another to decide that we don't want to collect revenue from even the honest passengers too!

Hrududu · 23-08-2014 11:44am

Does anyone know if Bus Eireann are planning on putting extra busses on these days? I'm meant to go somewhere but now I'm paranoid that if I rely on getting the bus back that it will be full by the time it gets to my stop with all the passengers that would have gone on the train.

devnull · 23-08-2014 12:27pm

Where are you going to and from?

Bus Eireann say they don't have a hue amount of extra capacity to put on. A large number of private operators are putting on extra capacity, details can be found here:

http://www.transportforireland.ie/rail-strike/

Infini · 23-08-2014 1:50pm

To be honest in the end this might've been avoided had the Government or Management been serious about it but from looking at everything so far they simply didnt give a fiddlers about either the customers or the workers. Unions warned from the outset that any pushing through cuts without agreement would lead to a strike and while people might debate and say they shouldnt be striking the fact that Franks decided to push through the cuts on the 24th triggering the strikes on that day and later turning up in Mauritius of all places when it was all due to kick off shows everyone pretty much the attitude that certain parts management seem to have.

So far management and the goverment say they havent got the money and say its for its survival of the company but theres already been a number of points made here.

For management:

*They say the cuts are neccessary for the survival of the company.
*They say that the cuts are only temporary.
*They say that theres no money to give to the railway.
*The Minister said that hes lookin for value for the taxpayer.

However the other side of the argument from the unions and staff is alot more detailed and alot more hard hitting if you read into it expecially from this thread.

*Staff agreed 3 years ago to significant saving and reduction in al/sick leave and other entitlments in return for core pay being maintained.
*The result was a reduction in costs by 25% from €441m to €312m.
*The subvention was repeatedly cut after these saving instead of maintaining them at even 2011 levels.
*The result of this looks like the goverment is trying to undermine the railway deliberately thus destroying any trust left with the unions members.
*The trust is gone completely and the workers cant trust management to deliver on restoring the pay after the end of the proposed new agreement because they didnt maintain the previous agreement.
*Theres also money being paid to developers for underused motorways that couldve instead easily plugged the remaing shortfall here.
*In Dublin Paticularly on the northside DART area and Maynooth line its a near free for all situation in terms of people travelling without tickets resulting in lost revenue.
*Enforcement is difficult to maintain due to unmanned stations and not enough ticketcheckers.
*This means theres a sizable amout of people travelling for nothing or buying child instead of adult tickets and getting away with it.
*Stations being locked up completely earlier on parts of the northside due to lack of staff/manning and security issues.
*Inner city stations being undermanned to unsafe levels at times due to lack of staff.
*Staff regularly asked to work overtime to plug these gaps thus pushing up the paybill.
*Management jobs have been the only jobs been filled or advertised in the last year while the frontline jobs where the buisness and customers are have been extremely eroded to untenable levels.
*The Free Travel scheme is also a mess because of too many people having them (1/3rd of the pop) and the governent not paying their correct share for them.
*Giving out so many passes to people that dont need them as well. Old folks and severely disabled people like blindness/wheelchair bound or physically unable to work due to chronic illness should obviously be free but those with minor disabilities getting them is ridiculous and not only overloads the system but brings its integrity into disrepute. Some have stated they have a free pass just because they cant drive even if theyre working. To play devils advocate here though if your able to work and make a living why should you be free just because you cant drive because that aint fair on the person paying €1200+ per year for their annual ticket just because therye not disabled.
*Report recently published is showing the railway is underfunded by €60million showing the unsustainability of cutting the subsidy so low.

I could go on longer but to be blunt here IMO the railway isnt so much a buisness its an INFRASTRUCTURE. Its something that seriously needs investing in expecially with the DART underground and Rail links to the airport as well as the unfinished Navan line. Closing more stations is pointless as is closing lines things seriously need fixing because roads arent the ultimate end all to everything. Many might think that this might last a few days but I think it could go on for longer theres several issues besides pay that just simply HAVE to be sorted out ASAP if this is gonna be resolved. Ultimatly trust is the biggest issue and the goverment and management side are the ones that have undermined it.

mickydoomsux · 23-08-2014 2:22pm

The government needs to decide whether CIE as a whole is a commercial venture or a public service provider and fund it appropriately based on this decision.

It can't be both because that simply doesn't work.

Atlantic Dawn · 23-08-2014 5:08pm

Why are Dublin Bus not going to accept train tickets on the strike days? They always accept them in the case of mechanical failure or delays. Do the unions in Dublin Bus have a block on accepting Irish Rail tickets in the event of a strike? Both companies are semi state, should it not be a given that they must accept each others tickets in the event of a strike?

cdebru · 23-08-2014 5:34pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They shouldnt agree to any cuts but the reality is that IR can make as many cuts to conditions and wages as they can legally do and staff cant really do anything about it. Its a case of either accepting it or find a different job. IR work to their own conditions and not to the demands of its staff. Staff can protest as much as they want and hopefully get what they want but the fact is that they work for IR and not the other way round. After these round of strikes, they will be down a weeks wage which will be nearly the first years amount of cut and the cuts will still be implemented.

Legally they can't make any cuts, it is a contract and one side can not change a contract without the consent of the other party to the contract. That's how contracts work hence why the government couldn't remove the top up payments to the executives in the health sector, because they would have left themselves open to legal action for breach of contract. So ask yourself why hasn't the NBRU and SIPTU gone to court to prevent IE unilaterally altering their members contracts instead of depriving them of pay to force them to accept the changes later ???
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-u-turn-means-some-may-be-allowed-to-keep-top-ups-1.1828927

cython · 23-08-2014 5:44pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why are Dublin Bus not going to accept train tickets on the strike days? They always accept them in the case of mechanical failure or delays. Do the unions in Dublin Bus have a block on accepting Irish Rail tickets in the event of a strike? Both companies are semi state, should it not be a given that they must accept each others tickets in the event of a strike?

Irish Rail and Luas would not accept tickets from Dublin Bus when DB went on strike either, and while I can't recall the exact reasoning as to why the remaining operators wouldn't cover the strike-affected operator, I think it was something to do with the fact that the other "normal" service disruptions are outside of anyone's control (and there is likely reciprocation which is difficult to balance when it comes to strikes), whereas industrial action is (and this may prove unpopular to say, but it is ultimately true) within the combined control of the operator and employees. I don't believe it was a union decision though, but rather that of the company.

Hilly Bill · 23-08-2014 8:41pm

cdebru wrote: »

Legally they can't make any cuts, it is a contract and one side can not change a contract without the consent of the other party to the contract. That's how contracts work hence why the government couldn't remove the top up payments to the executives in the health sector, because they would have left themselves open to legal action for breach of contract. So ask yourself why hasn't the NBRU and SIPTU gone to court to prevent IE unilaterally altering their members contracts instead of depriving them of pay to force them to accept the changes later ???
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-u-turn-means-some-may-be-allowed-to-keep-top-ups-1.1828927

I did say what they can do legally , if its not legal then they cant do it . Staff didnt get new contracts when they got a pay rise so could they bring down to the original rate? If you got a new job with a higher rate then you would have a got a new contract.
Its a good question as why they havent gone down that road, surely it would have been mentioned in the Labour court though.
A group called the 4 skins had a song about this, One Law for them and another one for us.

steveblack · 23-08-2014 11:08pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why are Dublin Bus not going to accept train tickets on the strike days? They always accept them in the case of mechanical failure or delays. Do the unions in Dublin Bus have a block on accepting Irish Rail tickets in the event of a strike? Both companies are semi state, should it not be a given that they must accept each others tickets in the event of a strike?

When train or LUAS not working, Dublin Bus accept tickets simply because of MONEY.
Agreements in place for payment to DB by IE ,LUAS for the time DB accept tickets.
Nothing to do with unions.
If IE dont pay for DB and LUAS to accept tickets ,they won't.

monument · 24-08-2014 4:15pm

steveblack wrote: »

CIE get less than €100 per year for each free travel pass, which gives unlimited free travel on IE,DB & BE.

If the free pass was abolished in the morning and all of these free travelers stayed at home all week and only went out once a week to do the shopping and used the DART.
The lowest fare possible is €1.70 with LEAP.
Once into town and back home for a total cost of €3.40 .
52 weeks at €3.40 for a total of €176.80 for one journey a week on the DART.

Is it any wonder the prices are going up each year for fare paying passengers, someone has got to pay for the free travel.

Or maybe the rest of the government could think about making the department of social welfare pay its way? Then the minister and other might be less inclined to offer and unlimited ticket with no peak restrictions?

Banjoxed · 24-08-2014 4:30pm

monument wrote: »

Or maybe the rest of the government could think about making the department of social welfare pay its way? Then the minister and other might be less inclined to offer and unlimited ticket with no peak restrictions?

How exactly? Treadmills? Oakum picking?

mickydoomsux · 24-08-2014 4:38pm

monument wrote: »

Or maybe the rest of the government could think about making the department of social welfare pay its way? Then the minister and other might be less inclined to offer and unlimited ticket with no peak restrictions?

Indeed.

For (an extreme) example if someone was traveling on a day return to Dublin from the station i work in every day for a year it would cost an eye-watering €9438 in day return tickets.

IE gets roughly €100 per year for someone doing this on a freebie. That doesn't even cover a week of their travel in standard ticket prices.

How is this considered sustainable or fair? Are 1.1 million people in the nation really that hard-up that they should be handed a document worth nearly 10k per annum?

Banjoxed · 24-08-2014 4:39pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Indeed.

For (an extreme) example if someone was traveling on a day return to Dublin from the station i work in every day for a year it would cost an eye-watering €9438 in day return tickets.

IE gets roughly €100 for someone doing this on a freebie. That doesn't even cover a week of their travel in standard ticket prices.

How is this considered sustainable or fair? Are 1.1 million people in the nation really that hard-up that they should be handed a document worth nearly 10k per annum?

Well it ain't worth a damn up here in North East Donegal, where new bus operators in the wake of the collapse of the Swilly have not been accepted into the scheme. That will put a smile on the face of all our Gradgrinds.

billyhead · 24-08-2014 5:19pm

What is the likelihood that the remaining days of the planned strike next month are called off or will they be definitely going ahead.

Infini · 24-08-2014 6:52pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

Well it ain't worth a damn up here in North East Donegal, where new bus operators in the wake of the collapse of the Swilly have not been accepted into the scheme. That will put a smile on the face of all our Gradgrinds.

Its sad that they ripped up the railway in the northeast I would say people would pay for a properly planned and maintained railway off the sligo line to letterkenny and into derry as well.

billyhead wrote: »

What is the likelihood that the remaining days of the planned strike next month are called off or will they be definitely going ahead.

Unless the management side withdraw the unilateral pay cut and the goverment start seriously look like they'll maintain the rail network expect things to continue as planned or escalate.

tommieob · 24-08-2014 9:17pm

Sorry for sounding a bit selfish, but, having forked out €3,800 for a yearly ticket, who do I need to contact to get compensation for having to pay €40 and an extra 2 hours commute to get home from work tomorrow evening?

mickydoomsux · 24-08-2014 9:26pm

tommieob wrote: »

Sorry for sounding a bit selfish, but, having forked out €3,800 for a yearly ticket, who do I need to contact to get compensation for having to pay €40 and an extra 2 hours commute to get home from work tomorrow evening?

Refund details for Taxsaver tickets are on the Irishrail website.

foggy_lad · 24-08-2014 10:14pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Essentially people want a public transport system that isn't paid for from the public purse that somehow manages to keep running on God knows what.

Save money through running the smallest possible sets, cut wages/conditions of employees and increase fares to paying customers to allow us to keep providing 1.1 million people with All-Island Free Travel all while paying the company who is running the entire show less every year to do that.

There won't be much left of the railway network if those 1.1million people stop using the trains on a regular basis!

If the free travel passes are withdrawn the numbers using the railway and other public transport will plummet an the first casualty will unfortunately be the railway. lines will be cut back to larger towns, services will be cut and trains shortened, fares will increase to counter the removal of almost all the subsidy.

Bus services in and around the Dublin area and dart services will fare best but all other services will be decimated.

mickydoomsux · 24-08-2014 10:20pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

There won't be much left of the railway network if those 1.1million people stop using the trains on a regular basis!

Well, if their journeys were necessary then they would pay for their ticket (even a token amount) and still travel.

Otherwise they are just traveling for the sake of it because they don't have to pay. Is that what the free travel scheme was created for?

As i've said before i have no problem as such with the scheme other than the fact that it is woefully underfunded.

The equivalent of €100 a year per passenger for All Island travel on a variety of different modes of transport? How does that make sense to anyone?

You can't actually purchase a ticket that allows you to do that and yearly tickets for individual routes run into the thousands of euro. How is this fair to anyone besides the person getting the free ride?

foggy_lad · 24-08-2014 10:26pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Well, if their journeys were necessary then they would pay for their ticket (even a token amount) and still travel.

Otherwise they are just traveling for the sake of it because they don't have to pay. Is that what the free travel scheme was created for?

As i've said before i have no problem as such with the scheme other than the fact that it is woefully underfunded.

The equivalent of €100 a year per passenger for All Island travel on a variety of different modes of transport? How does that make sense to anyone?

You can't actually purchase a ticket that allows you to do that and yearly tickets for individual routes run into the thousands of euro. How is this fair to anyone besides the person getting the free ride?

There won't be any shortage or overcrowding if that many people are excluded, according to staff estimates on here at least half of staff will be on the dole as so many services will be cut out and cut back. 1.1million passengers, it will be worse than any cuts that went on in the 50's or since the first run of the rocket!

and yes that is one of the reasons the scheme was introduced in the first place, to allow people who would otherwise not be able to get out and about have the freedom to travel.

end of the road · 24-08-2014 10:35pm

to sum it up, your both right. the scheme exists to get people out who wouldn't otherwise, and if abolished could cause most public transport services to be removed. it is being abused by some, and it needs to be payed for in full though

mickydoomsux · 24-08-2014 10:43pm

You'd wonder how other countries that make people actually pay for the services they use function at all.

Their public transport must be in a terrible state.

foggy_lad · 25-08-2014 12:17am

mickydoomsux wrote: »

You'd wonder how other countries that make people actually pay for the services they use function at all.

Their public transport must be in a terrible state.

They mostly have much greater population densities than here in Ireland so their railways have always had much higher numbers than here and they are able to have transport police to counter fare evasion and anti-social behaviour which is something that is not feasible in Ireland.

as for these strike days, the public will have less and less support for staff who they perceive to have taken only very small cuts so far when everyone else including those pensioners and disabled with free travel have had cuts all around. the cuts to their sick days and holiday entitlements etc in the last year still fell far short of bringing them into line with the normal working public. When people hear about staff having up to 10 uncertified sick days a year when most of the public sector only have 3-5 days it shows that CIE and Irish Rail staff are still living in a cloud.

end of the road · 25-08-2014 12:27am

foggy_lad wrote: »

as for these strike days, the public will have less and less support for staff who they perceive to have taken only very small cuts so far when everyone else including those pensioners and disabled with free travel have had cuts all around.

strangely more people support them then one would think

foggy_lad wrote: »

the cuts to their sick days and holiday entitlements etc in the last year still fell far short of bringing them into line with the normal working public.

whats the "normal working public" and why would and should they be brought into line with them considering different jobs will have different terms and conditions and even in the same industries terms and conditions can be different from employer to employer?

foggy_lad wrote: »

When people hear about staff having up to 10 uncertified sick days a year when most of the public sector only have 3-5 days it shows that CIE and Irish Rail staff are still living in a cloud.

if they are hearing that its probably from one of the gutter rags in fairness, i don't believe irish rail staff have, and haven't had for a long time, 10 sick days per year

Infini · 25-08-2014 12:35am

end of the road wrote: »

to sum it up, your both right. the scheme exists to get people out who wouldn't otherwise, and if abolished could cause most public transport services to be removed. it is being abused by some, and it needs to be payed for in full though

To be honest about 60% of those using people on the scheme are old people. Noone here is gonna say the HAVE to pay for their train ticket at this point they have done their time BUT at the most they shouldnt be free during the rush hours either. At most they should be paying the privilage fare (25% of the normal fare) for ON peak services. It was a political stunt by Seamus Brennan to remove the restrictions for them years ago anyways and now its come back to bite everyone in the arse.
The remaining 40% needs to be looked at though expecially those companion passes since theres quite a bit of shenanigans going on with them. As it stand the most potent and immediate way at cutting fraud at this point would be to declare the old cornflakes box passes invalid for all under 65 and specifically clear up this group 1st (not to mention remove all the junkies in one fell swoop as well) since Old people are easy to prove (age duh!

)
The goverment will have to look at this because realistically neither IR or the Government can afford to continue to bear the costs of it in its current form.
One other thing to note that England which is a much larger country with privatised railways doesnt have free travel on the rail period. You get a concession fare for the old folks but thats it.

As for the subsidy theres already a commisioned report showing the railway is underfunded by €60m. In addition expecting staff to take a forced pay cut after agreeing to a previous cost saving plan in 2012 to 2016 for leaving core pay alone (which has been frozen since 2007) in return for reduced conditions only to reneigh on that agreement less than 2 years via stuffing up middle management with unnessesary jobs and goverment meddling via deliberate subsidy cuts is also unrealistic. Expecially now theyre too late to be forcing cuts at a time things are on the up and costs are rising. The place is grossly and dangerously undermanned on the frontlines because of this and both depotstaff and drivers are clear that therye not having any more of it.

As for possible examinership thats a mixed bag because while some would think the workers could lose their jobs realisicaly atm the frontline jobs are at such low levels that if it happened the remaining lads would be unlikely to go since theres just not enough left. Management are the ones fearing it moreso than anything because if it happens then SERIOUS questions would start being asked. I believe when the DAA came in there years ago a bunch of managers were tossed back out on the front lines because they were in jobs that werent even needed there.

Theres also the fact that if workers were being threatened with job losses because of mismanagement and governemnt meddling this would more than trigger an all out national transport strike as well with the remaining two companies because the workers in the other 2 companies which belong to the same unions definately wouldnt sit around idly by lest they be next for the same treatment down the road.
Remember what happened with irish ferries a few years ago when they tried getting rid of the old staff for contract people on slave labour wages.

foggy_lad wrote: »

They mostly have much greater population densities than here in Ireland so their railways have always had much higher numbers than here and they are able to have transport police to counter fare evasion and anti-social behaviour which is something that is not feasible in Ireland.

Its not feasable with unmanned stations in Dublin either you know its unfortunately quite easy for the determined to fare evade atm on the DART and Commuter networks since there simply not enough checkers even with the boosted numbers they robbed from other depots theres simply just not enough.

foggy_lad wrote: »

as for these strike days, the public will have less and less support for staff who they perceive to have taken only very small cuts so far when everyone else including those pensioners and disabled with free travel have had cuts all around. the cuts to their sick days and holiday entitlements etc in the last year still fell far short of bringing them into line with the normal working public.

Actually alot of people do support the workers expecially when you explain they DID take cuts only for the Goverment/Management to break the agreement. The lads striking as well are mainly depotmen, checkers and drivers that are on fixed rate contracts theres no sunday doubletime payments or tripletime bank holiday payments either they went for them back in 2001 with the new deal contracts. This is a cut to core pay at a time when the economy and prices are on the rise it resonates with alot of people. The 3 unions that did agree are mainly made up of clerical and some trade staff on significantly higher rates of pay than the rest but even at that when you add up all the no votes from all 5 unions the majority of staff still voted against the pay cuts being imposed.

foggy_lad wrote: »

When people hear about staff having up to 10 uncertified sick days a year when most of the public sector only have 3-5 days it shows that CIE and Irish Rail staff are still living in a cloud.

FYI The staff only get 4 self-certs a year. That was one of the terms of the 2012 cost saving agreement.

Irish Rail strike days

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