New DIT Campus - Grangegorman

TheBandicoot · 08-04-2014 1:49pm

I'm an confused, are they going around the site with the new "access routes for DIT Grangegorman", or are they CPOing the site so the original route can go ahead? Or is it both?

nowecant · 08-04-2014 1:57pm

I think most of us are confused as well.

I believe they are going ahead will all of the rest of the construction, pending getting the CPO.

This video shows what the new Broadstone Gate is meant to look like.

nowecant · 24-04-2014 10:24am

Has anyone heard anything else about this?

Also I wonder what the changes are that DIT might bid on Park House on the North Circular Road. It looks like it could be very useful to the college.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/commercial-property/park-house-on-ncr-to-headline-latest-allsop-space-auction-1.1769999

BonkeyDonker · 26-04-2014 12:55am

nowecant wrote: »

Has anyone heard anything else about this?

Also I wonder what the changes are that DIT might bid on Park House on the North Circular Road. It looks like it could be very useful to the college.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/commercial-property/park-house-on-ncr-to-headline-latest-allsop-space-auction-1.1769999

While not an expert I cannot see them needing to. The new campus is planned to take the majority of the staff/students, and their remaining facilities would probably on if required.

nowecant · 27-04-2014 1:27pm

It would be more a of a long term strategic investment. Its not often that a site/building like this in a location beside the new campus will come on the market. Considering the current property values and the fact that not a lot of business will be interested in this location I think it would be a perfect investment.

wicklowwonder · 27-04-2014 3:25pm

nowecant wrote: »

It would be more a of a long term strategic investment. Its not often that a site/building like this in a location beside the new campus will come on the market. Considering the current property values and the fact that not a lot of business will be interested in this location I think it would be a perfect investment.

Do DIT have the sort of money required?

nowecant · 27-04-2014 3:33pm

No idea, I would assume that with an institution of that size with he kind of money moving in and out of it it would not be too difficult to set up financing on such an asset.

Whether the money is got from a bank or from the government I dont know. But they have bought premisses in the past, I just dont know what the process is.

Aard · 27-04-2014 4:44pm

The Grangegorman SDZ has been approved. I can't see them looking for a variation on the plan just to incorporate another site. It's an incredibly complicated structuring of all the different parts - DIT has to plan for which Schools will move and when, the City Council / the Bord has to approve the scheme, the government has to finance it all, the architects have to design it.... It would be a nightmare to make alterations just for one building when ostensibly they already have all their ducks in a row as it is. What you suggest gets to the core of the nature of planning - what approach to take. If opportunities arise, should they be assessed and perhaps grasped? Or should the plan go ahead as approved, knowing all of the weak points already without potentially adding another?

Godge · 29-04-2014 5:50pm

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Do DIT have the sort of money required?

No

nowecant wrote: »

No idea, I would assume that with an institution of that size with he kind of money moving in and out of it it would not be too difficult to set up financing on such an asset.

Whether the money is got from a bank or from the government I dont know. But they have bought premisses in the past, I just dont know what the process is.

Don't think they can borrow money.

nowecant · 19-05-2014 1:17pm

Godge wrote: »

No
Don't think they can borrow money.

How do they go about funding any capital investments? I am not doubting you I would just find it interesting to know the process. While i certainly understand that this would be a significant and unexpected investment I believe it would be a great investment for the future.

In comparison Trinity seem to be able to make these sort of investments, though i know their respective situations are not really comparable.

Also i notice that the tender has just gone up for Phase 2 Works Contract for the Refurbishment, Construction of Structure 12
(Laundry Building) to form a Primary Care Centre and New Building
Extension to form a Primary Care Centre.

nowecant · 19-05-2014 1:22pm

Does anyone know of any updates to this situation with Maxol and the entrance to the new campus? I cant seem to find anything online

Maxol Oil Company is considering legal action in a dispute over a one acre site in the North of Dublin that has threatened both the Luas Cross City and DIT Grangegorman projects.

Dublin city councillors have given the go ahead for new access routes for the DIT Grangegorman development to be built around a site that Maxol has refused to vacate.

petronius · 03-06-2014 4:56pm

It seems crazy that they can not sort this out, the idea from plans of the plaza and a landscaped area from constitution hill kings inns across where the broadstone bus station is linking into st brendans way and DIT Grangegorman looked wonderful and it would be shameful if some mess up couldnt compensate properly the maxol station and allow it to be incorporated into the plan.

my understanding was they had had an agreement but were unhappy and withdrew from it.

nowecant · 03-06-2014 4:59pm

petronius wrote: »

my understanding was they had had an agreement but were unhappy and withdrew from it.

AFAIK the agreement fell through when DCC were unable to provide them with an alternative site when the only site they offered them had its planning permission application turned down.

This issue still have not been sorted. It must be affecting construction times now and the new luas line

Aard · 03-06-2014 7:03pm

Did the Coolock site even go to planning permission stage?

nowecant · 03-06-2014 7:05pm

Sorry you are correct. It was DCC who turned down the application

http://www.thejournal.ie/proposal-to-place-petrol-station-next-to-coolock-school-rejected-by-dublin-city-council-945504-Jun2013/

nowecant · 04-06-2014 2:42pm

Incase anyone has not seen it the Grangegorman Development Authority have a decent Facebook Presence at

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Grangegorman-Development-Agency/382314786412?fref=ts

Aard · 04-06-2014 3:51pm

@nowecant

What's your interest in this project? You seem to know a lot about it and are the main contributor to this thread! (Not an accusatory question, just curious.)

nowecant · 04-06-2014 4:05pm

I like big infrastructure projects, I live locally, work locally, I went to DIT and have a couple of contacts on the project. I also plan on working in third level education. I also believe that education (good and effective) is the silver bullet to many of the issues we face. And it seems to me that DIT is the least discriminatory of the major institutions.

I follow several infrastructure threads on boards but dont really contribute to many as i don't know enough about the subject, but i like to keep up to date. When i started this thread a few years back it seemed that even among infrastructure anoraks that this was being ignored

Lastly I think DIT have been treated like the distant cousin with Tourette syndrome of Irish education, pitied, laughed at and their qualities ignored.

petronius · 04-06-2014 5:33pm

While I have my misgivings about a one size fits all style of third level institution and they all want to be all encompassing universities the move to Grangegorman will allow DIT to be such single campus university.
Does Dublin need a 4th university as such is another question, I fear the DIT is losing its role for providing stepping stones to degrees via apprenticeships to certificates to diplomas to degrees etc.

In many ways DIT is becoming what the NIHE (DCU) was intended to be.
I like Grangegorman as a place and it will benefit the area greatly, I hope they maintain as much green space as possible, and keep the campus open to the surrounding areas and used by the community. And not use the Institutions walls to segregate it from its hinterland the way TCD is closed off from Pearse Street etc.

Was the planning permission refused or the maxol garage on the M1 due to some prior commitment with applegreen? or was it some other issue...

Idbatterim · 04-06-2014 7:07pm

I hope they are building a serious amount of onsite accommodation for students?

cgcsb · 04-06-2014 10:26pm

Over 10000 units afaik

nowecant · 04-06-2014 10:39pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Over 10000 units afaik

I was not aware of that. Do you have any links?

10000 would be enough to provide accommodation for a half the students or roughly the first two years, more than any other third level institution.

nowecant · 04-06-2014 10:55pm

Found a link referencing the 10000 student accommodation places at

ggda.ie/assets/GG_CG_CEO_Slides_21_March_2013.pdf

That seems like a very impressive amount.

Idbatterim · 04-06-2014 11:02pm

I came across a document saying the accommodation would sleep 1500-2000, there is no way it is 10,000! Here we go 1550-2000 bed spaces...

http://www.dublincity.ie/Planning/OtherDevelopmentPlans/LocalAreaPlans/Documents/GG%20Chapter05.pdf

brownbeard · 05-06-2014 3:06am

nowecant wrote: »

Found a link referencing the 10000 student accommodation places at

ggda.ie/assets/GG_CG_CEO_Slides_21_March_2013.pdf

That seems like a very impressive amount.

Can't find a reference to 10000 accommodation places in the link above? On p39 it references capacity on site for 1600 beds...

nowecant · 05-06-2014 2:43pm

brownbeard wrote: »

Can't find a reference to 10000 accommodation places in the link above? On p39 it references capacity on site for 1600 beds...

Sorry I read this wrong last night. "Relocation of circa 10,000 students ~50% of DIT students" (page 20) Too late and too tired to be on the internet.

But here is a link which also specifies "The Project provides for the relocation and accommodation of circa 10,000 students" http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:292424-2013:TEXT:EN:HTML

Now i doubt that they are housing 10,000 on that site, as i said last night i was unaware of this until it was stated here. I just read that statement wrong. The quote from the second link above is also not exactly clear as its for the relocation and accommodation. Maybe in the future of they were to be given one or both buss garage sites they would be able to accommodate 10,000

cgcsb · 05-06-2014 11:16pm

hover over the map and it tells you what each blocks, it seems at first like there are 6 quads each housing 2000 students i.e. 12,000 in total, however 2000 is probably the planned total. There are also derelict areas around grangegorman which will no doubt become student homes.

http://ggda.ie/projects

nowecant · 06-06-2014 9:09am

I would love if they were providing accommodation for 10,000 but looking at the plans and the documentation I really don't think they are.

The tool tips on that map state "the creation of student housing on site aims to provide 2,000 bed spaces for student accommodation in a number of buildings on site." That unfortunately reads 2000 in total, not 2000 per block.

I have long argued, and hoped that DIT would also get possession of at least one if not both bus garages adjacent to the site. I believe there is room out beside Harristown Bus Garage to expand operations there.

Adding either or both of these sites would significantly add to the amount of student accommodation that the college could provide. It would also be of significant benefit to the local community.

Some of the early concept designs and video seems to suggest that they had plans extending to these sites but I am unsure whether it was something seriously discussed or if it was just dreaming.

brownbeard · 06-06-2014 11:45am

Would it be the case that development of the bus garages is planned for in the distant future? It's my understanding that the whole campus as envisioned hasn't got funding in place as it is. The two quads have funding under PPPs plus the environmental health sciences institute plus refurbishment of old buildings. This would put 10000 students on campus, which is half of the whole project as envisioned. Does anyone know about the status of the rest of it?

nowecant · 06-06-2014 3:21pm

brownbeard wrote: »

Would it be the case that development of the bus garages is planned for in the distant future?

Lets hope so

brownbeard wrote: »

It's my understanding that the whole campus as envisioned hasn't got funding in place as it is. The two quads have funding under PPPs plus the environmental health sciences institute plus refurbishment of old buildings. This would put 10000 students on campus, which is half of the whole project as envisioned. Does anyone know about the status of the rest of it?

AFAIK you are correct and the rest of the campus has not got any funding right now. At least the first 10,000 students will have a vast improvement in facilities and services even if it takes a while for the rest to arrive. DIT will finally be getting a home which is worthwhile investing in rather than maintaining and half investing in unsuitable distributed locations.

xper · 07-06-2014 2:30am

nowecant wrote: »

AFAIK you are correct and the rest of the campus has not got any funding right now. At least the first 10,000 students will have a vast improvement in facilities and services even if it takes a while for the rest to arrive. DIT will finally be getting a home which is worthwhile investing in rather than maintaining and half investing in unsuitable distributed locations.

Patience is indeed advised. It took 40 odd years to shift all of UCD's academic facilities out from the city centre to Belfield.

nowecant · 11-06-2014 3:12pm

Nice video on the move to the new campus

nowecant · 01-07-2014 3:45pm

This is the first new DIT building which is due to be open in 2015. the sucessfull contractor BAM have just released an animation of its construction.

"The Greenway Hub will create specialist research facilities for the Environmental Sciences Health Institute (ESHI) and FOCUS in addition to providing incubation spaces for start-up companies. A range of meeting places will be available including one-to-one spaces as well as larger 6-8 people meeting rooms and a number of breakout spaces for informal meetings. All rooms will have Wi-Fi as standard." http://ggda.ie/dit-greenway-hub/

nowecant · 30-07-2014 9:43am

Residents complain about DIT campus at Grangegorman

Residents around Grangegorman, Dublin, have accused a State development agency of breaching planning permission for the new DIT campus, just a month ahead of the arrival of its first students.

Some 1,000 of the DIT’s 20,000 students are due to move to the new consolidated campus on the site of the former St Brendan’s hospital in the northwest inner city in September.

The planning scheme for the development, approved by An Bord Pleanála two years ago, required entrances to be opened at the eastern and western boundaries of the site to reduce “excessive pressure” on the local road network.

“The opening up of these accesses prior to the occupation of the facilities by the DIT students is a prerequisite of the planning scheme,” the board stated.
However, the Grangegorman Development Agency says these gates will not now be open ahead of the arrival of the students, who will enter the campus from the North Circular Road or Grangegorman Lower.

The Grangegorman Residents Alliance, an umbrella group of local residents associations, said the failure to open the two entrances would result in traffic gridlock.

“The area already has a serious traffic problem with long tailbacks on the North Circular Road and Rathdown Road leading on to Grangegorman Lower, and now they are going to try to bring 1,000 more people through that bottleneck,” alliance chairman Pirooz Daneshmandi said.

Complaint lodged

The alliance has lodged a complaint with the council and is asking that it not permit the DIT to move students on site if the entrances are not open.
“This is an issue of complying with planning permission. Is nobody in this country going to abide by the law? We are just asking people to do their job and enforce the decision made by An Bord Pleanála”.

If the students did arrive ahead of the opening of the entrances, the alliance would consider legal action or a possible blockade of the campus, Mr Daneshmandi said.

The council is investigating the complaint, according to executive manager of the planning department Jim Keogan.

The east and west entrances were outside the area governed by the planning scheme and land ownership issues had arisen in relation to both gates, he said.
The eastern entrance is the Broadstone Gate which was to provide the main vehicular, pedestrian and cyclist access entrance for the campus as well as a stop for the new Luas Cross City line.

The plans involved the demolition of a small number of buildings, including the Maxol garage on Constitution Hill. However when Maxol last year withdrew its consent for the demolition, the council had to redraw the plans, working the new entrance plaza around the garage.

Plans approved

The plans were recently approved by the councillors, but there has not been sufficient time to build the entrance ahead of the arrival of the students.
The western entrance on to Prussia Street has also presented a problem in that some of the lands needed are in private ownership and an agreement has not been reached on their sale.

Mr Keogan said there was currently no issue of non-compliance with the board’s decision as there were no students on site. “We are looking into the complaint and we will evaluate the situation on September 1st. We will not ignore [the planning scheme] but this is a national project and there has to be a degree of reasonableness applied.”

A spokesman for the development agency said it was in compliance with all permissions granted to it by the council.

So the council have approved the new plans for the Maxol garage and Broadstone gate? would it not be better to sort the issue and find Maxol a new site and/or CPO their site?

Also does anyone know where exactly the western entrance onto Prussia Street is meant to be?

monument · 30-07-2014 9:53am

nowecant wrote: »

Also does anyone know where exactly the western entrance onto Prussia Street is meant to be?

Somewhere near or down the hill from Tesco, but nothing has been confirmed, which is a problem given that it was a planning condition that westren and eastern access would be opened before there's students on campus.

TheBandicoot · 30-07-2014 10:21am

It'll be horrible if they are really building an entrance plaza around an active garage. What a bodge.

Pete_Cavan · 30-07-2014 1:54pm

TheBandicoot wrote: »

It'll be horrible if they are really building an entrance plaza around an active garage. What a bodge.

It would be a disgrace and would undermine both the Grangegorman project and Luas Cross City. It never should have come to this, DCC should have given Maxol the site on Oscar Traynor Road regardless of what parents at a school half a mile away thought, now they should be CPOing.

The thing I dont understand about this is the Broadstone entrance doesnt matter at this stage. There is nothing but wasteland between Broadstone and the buildings which will be occupied this year as can be seen here. Everybody will be accessing these buildings from Grangegorman Road not Constitution Hill. Surely the Broadstone Gate doesnt come into use until the Luas is constructed?

monument · 30-07-2014 2:14pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The thing I dont understand about this is the Broadstone entrance doesnt matter at this stage. There is nothing but wasteland between Broadstone and the buildings which will be occupied this year as can be seen here. Everybody will be accessing these buildings from Grangegorman Road not Constitution Hill. Surely the Broadstone Gate doesnt come into use until the Luas is constructed?

It's quite clear that it was a planning condition so it should be happening.

We're not talking about fully finished access route, but at least temporary access.

East-west access routes would give more people far easier and more direct across when walking, cycling and to access buses. Without such access, driving will seem far more attractive.

Permeability is one of the most undervalued things in Irish planning. I was recently in Utrecht where they are reconstructing their large train station -- it's a massive project. Part of the project is to keep walking and cycling routes open at all times, even where that means building temporary paths which are moved a few times.

markpb · 30-07-2014 2:40pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It would be a disgrace and would undermine both the Grangegorman project and Luas Cross City. It never should have come to this, DCC should have given Maxol the site on Oscar Traynor Road regardless of what parents at a school half a mile away thought, now they should be CPOing.

+1

I used to live there, I don't see the problem at all.

L1011 · 30-07-2014 2:49pm

monument wrote: »

It's quite clear that it was a planning condition so it should be happening.

Based on my experiences with Kildare CC, enforcing conditions seems to be next to non-existent as a priority.

monument wrote: »

Permeability is one of the most undervalued things in Irish planning. I was recently in Utrecht where they are reconstructing their large train station -- it's a massive project. Part of the project is to keep walking and cycling routes open at all times, even where that means building temporary paths which are moved a few times.

That project is taking years upon years longer than expected - from memory of the huge signs up in 2008, the stage it was at in February 2014 was somewhat similar to where the signs said "Summer 2010" should be. Although that's not the fault of ensuring routes are left open...

That station and more importantly the surrounding shopping centre (from which it is finally being detached) are left open all night to ensure there's reduced division of the city also, something we lose in Dublin with shopping centres etc being locked up at night - Royal Hibernian Way comes to mind. Needs security to prevent rough sleeping and antisocial behaviour though.

Pete_Cavan · 30-07-2014 3:34pm

monument wrote: »

It's quite clear that it was a planning condition so it should be happening.

We're not talking about fully finished access route, but at least temporary access.

East-west access routes would give more people far easier and more direct across when walking, cycling and to access buses. Without such access, driving will seem far more attractive.

Permeability is one of the most undervalued things in Irish planning. I was recently in Utrecht where they are reconstructing their large train station -- it's a massive project. Part of the project is to keep walking and cycling routes open at all times, even where that means building temporary paths which are moved a few times.

Fine but what I am saying is that there is a couple of hundred metres of bus parking and wasteland between Broadstone and any of the buildings to be used, the Maxol garage doesnt affect this. People are more likely to be put off using that as an entrance by the bus parking and the wasteland than it being beside a petrol station. People will be making there way to Grangegorman Road to access the buildings which will be in use. Nobody is going to go to Constitution Hill to tramp across a bus park and wasteland to get to college. Building a shiny new plaza/entrance at Broadstone isnt going to affect peoples mode of transport or the traffic in the are a given said entrance is so far removed from the site.

Now, if they had a beautiful walking and cycling path from Broadstone to the buildings to be used, the Broadstone plaza, or lack of, would be an issue. The fact is there is no link between Broadstone and the site anyway so people simply wont be using Broadstone as an entrance. It is cart before the horse stuff to build the entrance before the actual link.

cgcsb · 30-07-2014 8:25pm

afaik the Prussia st gate was originally to be through the autocentre at the end of saint Joseph's road, but at this stage it's more likely that an entrance might be built by knocking down the wall at the end of Fingal place.

Carawaystick · 09-08-2014 8:21pm

Wasn't the building on the corner across the road built as student accommodation?
It was mentioned as getting the student accom tax relief when it was being built anyway.
This would be one reason to provide access here

nowecant · 14-08-2014 10:40am

It is DIT student accommodation.

Pete_Cavan · 14-08-2014 4:09pm

nowecant wrote: »

It is DIT student accommodation.

Broadstone Hall, the building at the corner of Phibsboro Road, Constitution Hill and Dominic Street? Its private student accommodation aimed at DIT students but is not associated with DIT.

http://www.broadstoneaccommodation.com/index.htm

gauchesnell · 27-08-2014 11:33am

just wondering if anyone is visiting the new campus when it opens...except for staff and students of course

MJohnston · 06-09-2014 5:48pm

I'm wondering if it will be possible anytime soon for a member of the public to walk through the campus - I'm living near Blessington Street Basin and have friends (and favourite bars) in Stoneybatter, so a route through the campus would be very welcome considering the larger detours you currently have to make. The planned maps seem to suggest it will be possible, but not when.

gauchesnell · 06-09-2014 7:02pm

there was a site tour for locals on Thursday (sorry bit late now)

I am not sure about being able to walk through the campus yet due to Health and Safety Reasons but the campus is open now. Students are being asked to come on the 8th but staff are there and buildings are open. I know the main reception is at the grangegorman road lower entrance and the DIT reception is just at the entrance. I am not sure about the north circular road entrance yet.

I would check out the ggda website or if you wish call into the DIT reception desk in Grangegorman they should be able to help you out.

There are great pics on the DIT website and on the ggda website.

I have been there myself and it looks amazing

monument · 06-09-2014 9:18pm

Never got around to replying...

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Fine but what I am saying is that there is a couple of hundred metres of bus parking and wasteland between Broadstone and any of the buildings to be used, the Maxol garage doesnt affect this. People are more likely to be put off using that as an entrance by the bus parking and the wasteland than it being beside a petrol station.

What exactly are you trying to claim here?

That most people at peak times will detour around rather than look at hoardings / a building site / a bus garage?

If cycling / walking from the north city to Grangegorman and most people had the choice of the end bit of the trip being:

the yellow route (440m) -- direct with no traffic and a crossing or two
the blue route (1.37km/1.24km) -- indirect with a ton of traffic, and difficult and busy junctions

I know most would choose the direct route regardless of the building site.

Another example, walking from the closest Swords / Drumcondra corridor bus stops -- the orange route (1.93km) vs the green one (1.25km) -- to Grangegorman, and, due to stop locations, the reverse is shorter for the green route and slighly longer for the orange route:

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

People will be making there way to Grangegorman Road to access the buildings which will be in use. Nobody is going to go to Constitution Hill to tramp across a bus park and wasteland to get to college.

There's no such place as Grangegorman Road.

These people seem happy enough cycling via a waste land of a building site:

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Building a shiny new plaza/entrance at Broadstone isnt going to affect peoples mode of transport or the traffic in the are a given said entrance is so far removed from the site.

No, but building a half decent access route (temporary or not) would have a positive effect on cycling, walking and public transport options.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Now, if they had a beautiful walking and cycling path from Broadstone to the buildings to be used, the Broadstone plaza, or lack of, would be an issue. The fact is there is no link between Broadstone and the site anyway so people simply wont be using Broadstone as an entrance. It is cart before the horse stuff to build the entrance before the actual link.

If you care about cycling, walking and public transport access, it's general good planning to give these direct routes from day zero.

That's even if temporary routes have to be built and even moved a few times while the redevelopment is ongoing -- the Utrecht centra station area, as mentioned above, is a good example.

nowecant · 04-11-2014 12:24pm

Putting up the sign at the front gate

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/11/04/meanwhile-at-dit/#comments

New DIT Campus - Grangegorman

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