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Mindfulness

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    #62
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    5uspect wrote: »
    As for side effects see above, I wonder about its effects on productivity and critical thinking as well as long term effects but without data this is speculation.

    How would it affect critical thinking or productivity?


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    #63
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    How would it affect critical thinking or productivity?

    As I said, speculation. If an employee is under pressure because there's a big deadline coming up and they are given an intervention that calms them and reduces stress, they may make mistakes or misjudge the importance of various factors in the task. I don't know because I haven't seen any data. If I give you Valium would you expect to be able to perform complex tasks accurately?

    Either the mindfulness techniques (or some of them) work, I mean really work with measurable effects on the brain, or they are just a bit of a woo with no measurable outcomes beyond some short term feel good factor.


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    #64
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    5uspect wrote: »
    As I said, speculation. If an employee is under pressure because there's a big deadline coming up and they are given an intervention that calms them and reduces stress, they may make mistakes or misjudge the importance of various factors in the task. I don't know because I haven't seen any data. If I give you Valium would you expect to be able to perform complex tasks accurately?

    Either the mindfulness techniques (or some of them) work, I mean really work with measurable effects on the brain, or they are just a bit of a woo with no measurable outcomes beyond some short term feel good factor.

    Ah hey-or! Comparing it's effect with Valium? Really.

    Either you don't really appreciate what mindfulness is or you're being obtuse.

    The whole premise of mindfulness is that it enables people to cut out the noise. So it's highly unlikely it will affect critical thinking. It draws people back to consider what they're doing while they're doing it and not to get distracted by other thoughts that might reduce focus.

    Like I've said, it's not my thing but your dismissal of it seems to be based on a misunderstanding of what's involved and how it might be helpful.


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    #65
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    Ah hey-or! Comparing it's effect with Valium? Really.

    Either you don't really appreciate what mindfulness is or you're being obtuse.

    The whole premise of mindfulness is that it enables people to cut out the noise. So it's highly unlikely it will affect critical thinking. It draws people back to consider what they're doing while they're doing it and not to get distracted by other thoughts that might reduce focus.

    Like I've said, it's not my thing but your dismissal of it seems to be based on a misunderstanding of what's involved and how it might be helpful.

    We have to compare it to something if it is going to have an effect on the brain. Do you think meditation has an chemical effect on the brain? If so then a drug, not necessarily Valium, can have a similar effect. It certainly isn't magic, that bit of meat between your ears is a complex electrochemical machine.

    Cutting out the noise and increasing focus on what exactly? Repetitive tasks only that don't require critical thinking? Critical thinking is about seeing things clearly and without bias. You can use it when problem solving for example. Can mindfulness not potentially aid critical thinking as well as hinder it if it is having a real measurable effect on your brain?

    There seems to be a denial here about the fact that the brain is a machine that responds to all kinds of stimuli. Anything that affects your behaviour has an effect on your brain - which can be measured.

    I'm dismissive because it sounds an awful like woo and I'm not seeing anything to change that view.


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    #66
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    5uspect wrote: »
    We have to compare it to something if it is going to have an effect on the brain. Do you think meditation has an chemical effect on the brain? If so then a drug, not necessarily Valium, can have a similar effect. It certainly isn't magic, that bit of meat between your ears is a complex electrochemical machine.

    Cutting out the noise and increasing focus on what exactly? Repetitive tasks only that don't require critical thinking? Critical thinking is about seeing things clearly and without bias. You can use it when problem solving for example. Can mindfulness not potentially aid critical thinking as well as hinder it if it is having a real measurable effect on your brain?

    There seems to be a denial here about the fact that the brain is a machine that responds to all kinds of stimuli. Anything that affects your behaviour has an effect on your brain - which can be measured.

    I'm dismissive because it sounds an awful like woo and I'm not seeing anything to change that view.

    There's none so blind as those who will not see.

    You're comparing apples and oranges. Chemical impact? Honestly.

    It's pretty apparent that you don't really get mindfulness. You're trying to apportion some sort of effect to it that most people don't.

    It's not about having an effect on the brain no more than putting on a bit of John Coltrane and closing your eyes (or not).

    It's about consciously filtering out the noise. Plenty of people can do it unconsciously. Some people apply the principles consciously to certain areas to help them.


    You don't have to be at a point where mind altering drugs are required.

    Like I said, a lot of people can do it unconsciously. Others have to do it consciously.

    So call it woo in you like.

    What mindfulness actually is is very different to what you seem to think it is.


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    #67
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    So it has no effect on the brain whatsoever?


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    #68
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    5uspect wrote: »
    So it has no effect on the brain whatsoever?

    To the same extent that listening to relaxing music / having a bath with essential oils does for a lot of people.

    Some people benefit from consciously filtering their thoughts.

    We're not going to agree here anyway. You seem intent on comparing it to something worthy of a medical intervention.


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    #69
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    I'm interested in understanding it from a biological standpoint. We are animals, if something can supposedly affect our behaviour it surely must have a measurable effect on our brains? Exercise has an obvious effect on our bodies. Many types of stimuli affect our brains why can't we agree that mediation and mindfulness are no different?

    Simply saying that it helps you focus or block out the noise simply isn't good enough. This inability to nail down what mindfulness is in favour of wishy washy language is what makes sound like woo.


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    #70
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    5uspect wrote: »
    I'm interested in understanding it from a biological standpoint. We are animals, if something can supposedly affect our behaviour it surely must have a measurable effect on our brains? Exercise has an obvious effect on our bodies. Many types of stimuli affect our brains why can't we agree that mediation and mindfulness are no different?

    Simply saying that it helps you focus or block out the noise simply isn't good enough. This inability to nail down what mindfulness is in favour of wishy washy language is what makes sound like woo.

    I'm not saying it doesn't have an effect. I'm just saying that the effect is comparable to other situations that aren't compared those were Valium might be prescribed.

    I used run a lot for the same reason people engage in mindfulness. I would consider the impact on the brain to be similar but through a different pathway.

    To take it back to the eating disorder reference, it was simply to think about what you were eating and why, just in the context of were you eating out to alleviate hunger or was it emotional? Are you eating because it's on the plate or because you're hungry. Just being aware of what you're doing.

    Call it woo iv you think it's woo. Others just call it having markers to help with eating issues.


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    #71
    Villagio
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18 ✭Villagio


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    I spoke with a behaviourial psychologist who stated she uses mindfulness techniques in her sessions. She said it works for some people, it doesn't work for others. I suppose it's just another way of looking at things, and life.

    Mindfulness works because it helps dissolve a major source of anxiety and negative emotions, the ego. In the present the ego can't exist.


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    #72
    Villagio
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18 ✭Villagio


    5uspect wrote: »
    As I said, speculation. If an employee is under pressure because there's a big deadline coming up and they are given an intervention that calms them and reduces stress, they may make mistakes or misjudge the importance of various factors in the task. I don't know because I haven't seen any data. If I give you Valium would you expect to be able to perform complex tasks accurately?

    Either the mindfulness techniques (or some of them) work, I mean really work with measurable effects on the brain, or they are just a bit of a woo with no measurable outcomes beyond some short term feel good factor.

    Mindfulness reduces anxiety and stress and makes you more alert, so you are better able to perform your tasks.


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    #73
    challengemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    It's not my thing but if it was I'd rather spend my time doing that than reading papers on it to see if it might help or not because of the lack of negatives for most people that engage in it.
    That's probably why homeopathy took off as well. I think the point is this: don't waste time or money on nonsense when there is an effective scientifically proven treatment available.
    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    There's none so blind as those who will not see.
    Indeed. Even when confronted with scientific evidence.
    It's pretty apparent that you don't really get mindfulness.
    I don't think anyone who approaches the idea from a scientific standpoint will get "mindfulness", mainly because all non-anecdotal evidence says it doesn't work.
    sup_dude wrote: »
    You said you thought mindfulness was the same as homeopathy, it's not.

    It's exactly the same as homeopathy.

    If you're going to post papers to show it has any effect, I suggest you read them critically first. Anything that has the following as the only methodology in the paper is a seriously flawed study.
    Standardized self-administered questionnaires of depression, anxiety, stress and mindfulness were administered at the baseline prior to the MBSR program and at completion (at 8 weeks).

    Particularly when you can quite easily conduct a cortisol salivary test which would indicate if there is any hormonal response to the "therapy".


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    #74
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    challengemaster wrote: »
    That's probably why homeopathy took off as well. I think the point is this: don't waste time or money on nonsense when there is an effective scientifically proven treatment available.

    Indeed. Even when confronted with scientific evidence.


    I don't think anyone who approaches the idea from a scientific standpoint will get "mindfulness", mainly because all non-anecdotal evidence says it doesn't work.


    I'm all for scientific evidence. I'm a scientist. But like I said, the absence of evidence isn't the same as evidence of absence.

    It's not considered a treatment or cure. Just a means for people to try and filter their thoughts.

    But why bother try something innocuous when there's probably a pill to take instead.


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    #75
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    No opinion on mindfulness working or not, I think I'm fairly "mindful" to begin with. I pay attention... Is that what it is?

    However, someone did say it had helped post traumatic stress disorder earlier, and I thought I'd mention that's the one disorder I thought it was recommended did not use it? Makes flashbacks worse? Or so someone said on the radio anyway while I was driving the other day.


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    #76
    challengemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    But why bother try something innocuous when there's probably a pill to take instead.

    It almost sounds like you think we're on some pharma companies payroll to try push people towards buying more pharma-based therapies. Pills aren't the only effective treatment. Many people go to a GP for counselling or advice related to mental health problems.

    The problem is that when things like homeopathy, mindfulness, or whatever gain traction due to anecdotal evidence; people with genuine mental health problems or symptoms of an underlying issue will ignore correct medical help in the hope that (insert nonsense here) will fix it.


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    #77
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    challengemaster wrote: »
    It almost sounds like you think we're on some pharma companies payroll to try push people towards buying more pharma-based therapies. Pills aren't the only effective treatment. Many people go to a GP for counselling or advice related to mental health problems.

    The problem is that when things like homeopathy, mindfulness, or whatever gain traction due to anecdotal evidence; people with genuine mental health problems or symptoms of an underlying issue will ignore correct medical help in the hope that (insert nonsense here) will fix it.

    And I'm no more in favour of treating something serious with it than any same person.

    I'm just saying it has a place, for some, as a means of addressing low level stress or anxiety. Not as a silver bullet but as something worth trying.


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    #78
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    And I'm no more in favour of treating something serious with it than any same person.

    I'm just saying it has a place, for some, as a means of addressing low level stress or anxiety. Not as a silver bullet but as something worth trying.

    And all I'm saying is that we need more data before it should be considered worth trying.

    I'm out, I've said all I can on the subject.


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    #79
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    5uspect wrote: »
    And all I'm saying is that we need more data before it should be considered worth trying.

    I'm out, I've said all I can on the subject.

    So, don't give it a try for 10-15 minutes to see if it works because data?

    I don't see what the harm is.


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    #80
    helliwen
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭helliwen


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    Does anyone know of an online mindfulness course?

    I'm not sure what forum would be correct for this query.

    Feeling a bit stressed with work.

    Thanks

    OP, I found Padraig O'Moran's free online resources good: http://www.padraigomorain.com/audio.html

    Also, anything you can find by Jon Kabat-Zinn (as mentioned already).

    There are lots of free mp3s here: http://www.freemindfulness.org/download

    Basically, you don't need any resources/courses. Mindfulness is about paying attention to what's going on in the present moment, without judging it. That's it really. But mp3's etc can help you to focus on the moment. And courses can help you to get into a routine of, for example, sitting down every day for 10 minutes to meditate.

    My main mindfulness practice nowadays is lifting weights - if I've a heavy bar on my back, I can't help but focus :-) Now, if only it were as easy at my desk at work :)


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    #81
    robocode
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭robocode


    The Oxford Mindfulness Centre reports numerous benefits, particularly in terms of treating depression.
    In the UK, the Government’s National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) has recommended MBCT for those with three or more episodes of depression in their Guidelines for Management of Depression (2004, 2009).

    The concept has been around a long time, and only a few years ago I recall how the term rarely cropped up. Now, however, as with all things worthwhile, plenty of people (some genuine, many not so) have cottoned on to the idea of monetising it and we have books, videos, courses, articles popping up on Facebook etc.

    Bottom line, if you suffer from some of the things it's proponents claim it helps, then try it, it's free, and won't take up much time, 20 minutes a day, keep it up for a few weeks. If you feel better great, maybe keep with it. If you feel no benefit at all, what harm, you've still made an effort to have 20 minutes of quiet time a day, something we all need.


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    #82
    YFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    ulinbac wrote: »
    Many different versions of it. I initially tried the Buddhism version. Worked a bit then tried Transcendental Meditation which I find great. 20mins a day, every day.

    It is one of the main reasons for getting over my panic attacks, stress and diagnosis of GAD.

    Meditation is one of the main tools for combating stress, depression and anxiety disorders. Plenty of proof out there that it works. Think a study last year showed it reduced Post Traumatic Stress in soldiers by a large percentage

    Yes I agree that Transcendental Meditation is extremely effective for a number of issues.

    The David Lynch Foundation offers the technique to a large number of 'at risk groups'

    http://www.davidlynchfoundation.org/


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    #83
    random.stranger
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭random.stranger


    Hey OP,
    There's a free online course by those crazy quacks over in UC Berkeley, it covers mindfulness among other things:

    https://www.edx.org/course/science-happiness-uc-berkeleyx-gg101x#.VMa3uoX8sjh

    Here's a couple of interesting talks that touch on mindfulness:
    http://www.ted.com/talks/martin_seligman_on_the_state_of_psychology#t-237639
    http://www.ted.com/talks/matthieu_ricard_on_the_habits_of_happiness
    &
    http://blog.ted.com/2012/10/10/why-arent-we-asking-the-big-questions-a-qa-with-ruby-wax/


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    #84
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    5uspect wrote: »
    I'm interested in understanding it from a biological standpoint. We are animals, if something can supposedly affect our behaviour it surely must have a measurable effect on our brains? Exercise has an obvious effect on our bodies. Many types of stimuli affect our brains why can't we agree that mediation and mindfulness are no different?

    Simply saying that it helps you focus or block out the noise simply isn't good enough. This inability to nail down what mindfulness is in favour of wishy washy language is what makes sound like woo.

    You need to calm down a bit here. Your argument is dismissing not only mindfulness but all talk therapy.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #85
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    helliwen wrote: »
    OP, I found Padraig O'Moran's free online resources good: http://www.padraigomorain.com/audio.html

    Also, anything you can find by Jon Kabat-Zinn (as mentioned already).

    There are lots of free mp3s here: http://www.freemindfulness.org/download

    Basically, you don't need any resources/courses. Mindfulness is about paying attention to what's going on in the present moment, without judging it. That's it really. But mp3's etc can help you to focus on the moment. And courses can help you to get into a routine of, for example, sitting down every day for 10 minutes to meditate.

    My main mindfulness practice nowadays is lifting weights - if I've a heavy bar on my back, I can't help but focus :-) Now, if only it were as easy at my desk at work :)

    Yeah lifting is a great one all right. I find singing is also, have to be aware of every muscle and the airflow, constantly
    Hard work :D


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    #86
    Spuddeeez
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Spuddeeez


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    Thanks.

    To be honest, I'm not overly stressed. I don't do stress. When I say stress, for me, it's a few negative feelings or thoughts that are creeping in. A feeling of being overwhelmed. A feeling of helplessness. It will pass (for me).

    However, I thought learning something about mindfulness and appropriate techniques might be helpful. I'm very much of the opinion 'Google it' but thought somebody might have some knowledge that Google may not throw out easily! I don't wish to spend money on it, unless a particular CD or book takes my eye.

    I too am sceptical and doubtful of the benefits of the various things you listed, but it truly does help people. Yes of course some are out to take advantage of others and encourage them to part with their money, but for some people, they find reflexology etc extremely beneficial. Even if it IS a placebo affect - what harm, if the person feels better?

    The mind can be an extremely powerful thing.

    No sure this has already crossed your path but buy yourself the book

    http://www.bookdepository.com/Mindfulness-Mark-Williams/9780749953089

    Easy to read, no nonsense, comes with a CD with just 8 'talk throughs' for practising meditation.

    There a lot more to these practises than meets the eye in my experience. I wouldn't pass too much heed on the nay sayers and just explore and find out for yourself. Never too early to give it a go. Good luck.


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    #87
    TracyWills
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭TracyWills


    search to the internet im sure you can find one.


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    #88
    Dinarius
    Registered Users Posts: 3,395 ✭✭✭Dinarius


    Just found this thread via a search......

    No coincidence, I guess, that most of the posts we made in January of last year - the good intentions/turning-over-a-new-leaf time of the year.

    I have been considering a Mindfulness course, which is why I did the thread search.

    I did a Transcendental Meditation course about 40 years ago. I was just a kid at the time and my father was terrified I'd run away with a sect! :p

    TM works for me in the sense that I have good sessions and bad sessions. But, when I have good sessions, it's very relaxing, mentally.

    The best sessions are when I nod off - usually for about 20-30 minutes - because the quality of the sleep is superb. Though, strictly speaking, you're supposed to stay awake.

    I think I'd like to go the App route with Mindfulness before I decide whether I want to spend any serious money. So, a year on, what are the best Apps now?

    I go to the gym a bit, and listening to an app while there would appeal.

    A very interesting thread and thanks to all the contributors.

    D.


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    #89
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Dinarius wrote: »
    Just found this thread via a search......

    No coincidence, I guess, that most of the posts we made in January of last year - the good intentions/turning-over-a-new-leaf time of the year.

    I have been considering a Mindfulness course, which is why I did the thread search.

    I did a Transcendental Meditation course about 40 years ago. I was just a kid at the time and my father was terrified I'd run away with a sect! :p

    TM works for me in the sense that I have good sessions and bad sessions. But, when I have good sessions, it's very relaxing, mentally.

    The best sessions are when I nod off - usually for about 20-30 minutes - because the quality of the sleep is superb. Though, strictly speaking, you're supposed to stay awake.

    I think I'd like to go the App route with Mindfulness before I decide whether I want to spend any serious money. So, a year on, what are the best Apps now?

    I go to the gym a bit, and listening to an app while there would appeal.

    A very interesting thread and thanks to all the contributors.

    D.

    Got into a good discussion on it a few days ago actually.. .I'm loving headspace.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057543862


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    #90
    Transform
    Registered Users Posts: 6,394 ✭✭✭Transform


    5uspect wrote: »
    And all I'm saying is that we need more data before it should be considered worth trying.

    I'm out, I've said all I can on the subject.
    "all im saying"

    the phrase most often used when I'm fighting a loosing battle arguing with my wife over something.

    More often than not, shes right and i need to take my head out of my ass


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    #91
    YFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    Dinarius wrote: »
    Just found this thread via a search......

    No coincidence, I guess, that most of the posts we made in January of last year - the good intentions/turning-over-a-new-leaf time of the year.

    I have been considering a Mindfulness course, which is why I did the thread search.

    I did a Transcendental Meditation course about 40 years ago. I was just a kid at the time and my father was terrified I'd run away with a sect! :p

    TM works for me in the sense that I have good sessions and bad sessions. But, when I have good sessions, it's very relaxing, mentally.

    The best sessions are when I nod off - usually for about 20-30 minutes - because the quality of the sleep is superb. Though, strictly speaking, you're supposed to stay awake.

    I think I'd like to go the App route with Mindfulness before I decide whether I want to spend any serious money. So, a year on, what are the best Apps now?

    I go to the gym a bit, and listening to an app while there would appeal.

    A very interesting thread and thanks to all the contributors.

    D.

    Hey Dinarius have you considered getting an individual or group check on your TM technique? There are a number of TM teacher around the country.

    There is no sect lol. Check out the work of the David Lynch Foundation.


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