Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Mindfulness

Options
  • 23-01-2015 10:54pm
    #1
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭


    Does anyone know of an online mindfulness course?

    I'm not sure what forum would be correct for this query.

    Feeling a bit stressed with work.

    Thanks


«13

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    There's no real evidence that mindfulness works any better than taking time out, relaxing or exercising; it's mostly just a bunch of rebranded Buddhism.
    If you're feeling stressed consult your GP.


  • Options
    #3
    jimbobaloobob
    Registered Users Posts: 5,153 ✭✭✭jimbobaloobob


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    Does anyone know of an online mindfulness course?

    I'm not sure what forum would be correct for this query.

    Feeling a bit stressed with work.

    Thanks

    I'm sure if you go on YouTube you will find many mindfulness videos
    It's become the buzz word in today's world for taking a step back from what we are doing and not stressing it.

    Good book "don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff"


  • Options
    #4
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    I'd honestly google/youtube some meditation or stress management techniques like that. Finding yourself falling into patterns of thinking/stressing and breaking them before you get stuck into a rut is a useful technique. As well as improving organisation and management of tasks & asking for help where possible.
    Other than that, I find exercise / lifting wipes my mind of pretty much anything else while I'm doing it, which is what you're looking for :)


  • Options
    #5
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,554 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Anytime I did it, I listened to 8-9 minute pieces on mp3. YouTube is yer only man.


  • Options
    #6
    eclectichoney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,291 ✭✭✭eclectichoney


    Headspace is a decent app - I think there is a free trial.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,554 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Mindfulness comes in different forms. My Dad found the cd great bit the 8-9 minute ones were great, he found.

    Exercise has been mine more often than not.

    But yeah, you don't need a course. Just something that helps bring you back into yourself and being conscious of just yourself.


  • Options
    #8
    ulinbac
    Registered Users Posts: 707 ✭✭✭ulinbac


    Many different versions of it. I initially tried the Buddhism version. Worked a bit then tried Transcendental Meditation which I find great. 20mins a day, every day.

    It is one of the main reasons for getting over my panic attacks, stress and diagnosis of GAD.

    Meditation is one of the main tools for combating stress, depression and anxiety disorders. Plenty of proof out there that it works. Think a study last year showed it reduced Post Traumatic Stress in soldiers by a large percentage


  • Options
    #9
    gymfreak
    Registered Users Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭gymfreak


    5uspect wrote: »
    There's no real evidence that mindfulness works any better than taking time out, relaxing or exercising; it's mostly just a bunch of rebranded Buddhism.
    If you're feeling stressed consult your GP.

    There are plenty of published papers that state the effectiveness of mindfulness, especially on sports performance (which would be a topic I've researched, due to interest). So you can't really state your opinon as fact.

    OP, Jon Kabat Zinn's book is very good and it comes with a CD, youtube is pretty good too for finding tutorials.


  • Options
    #10
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    gymfreak wrote: »
    There are plenty of published papers that state the effectiveness of mindfulness, especially on sports performance (which would be a topic I've researched, due to interest). So you can't really state your opinon as fact.

    OP, Jon Kabat Zinn's book is very good and it comes with a CD, youtube is pretty good too for finding tutorials.

    It's not my opinion. To quote the meta-analysis cited on the Wiki article on mindfulness:
    After reviewing 18 753 citations, we included 47 trials with 3515 participants. Mindfulness meditation programs had moderate evidence of improved anxiety (effect size, 0.38 [95% CI, 0.12-0.64] at 8 weeks and 0.22 [0.02-0.43] at 3-6 months), depression (0.30 [0.00-0.59] at 8 weeks and 0.23 [0.05-0.42] at 3-6 months), and pain (0.33 [0.03- 0.62]) and low evidence of improved stress/distress and mental health–related quality of life. We found low evidence of no effect or insufficient evidence of any effect of meditation programs on positive mood, attention, substance use, eating habits, sleep, and weight. We found no evidence that meditation programs were better than any active treatment (ie, drugs, exercise, and other behavioral therapies).

    I'm all for positive thinking, relaxation, healthy eating and exercise, I don't like the notion that it should be tied up in some new age philosophy and sold as a product that somehow is better than the former.


  • Options
    #11
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    Thank you all.
    I see the sceptics are out in force!
    I heard about the man to you mentioned gymfreak so I will look into it and YouTube.
    I'm not the most keen on exercise so looking for an alternative option. (I do exercise also)
    Thanks.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    Essien
    Registered Users Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭Essien


    FWIW, in my case, it was actually my GP who recommended it. She said it wasn't for everyone and didn't guarantee results, but she certainly had some faith in it. Doing it consistently has been hard though, I just keep putting it off.

    Learn to manage the source of your stress if you can. I'm self employed and would regularly keep myself awake thinking of what I had to do and when I had to do it. Last week I bought a big whiteboard, wrote down everything I needed to do and erased them accordingly. My sleep improved immediately.

    That's just my experience though, it may not necessarily apply to you.


  • Options
    #13
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    Thank you Essien.
    I think it is part of the problem, constantly thinking of all the things I have to do and never feeling like I am really achieving anything.
    I need to start making lists, and ticking things off!

    I never used to be a 'stressed' person.


  • Options
    #14
    dastardly00
    Registered Users Posts: 13,305 ✭✭✭✭dastardly00


    I'd also recommend trying the app Headspace. The first 10 sessions are free to listen to when you download the app :)


  • Options
    #15
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,554 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    I think there's a misconception about what mindfulness is amongst a lot of people.

    Anything that flushes extraneous thoughts out of your head is no bad thing.


  • Options
    #16
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    Thanks all, truly. Going to sleep now but looking up Headspace first thing tomorrow:-)


  • Options
    #17
    Toplink
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Toplink


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    Thanks all, truly. Going to sleep now but looking up Headspace first thing tomorrow:-)

    'Calm' is another very good app for this. I do for 10 mins most mornings.


  • Options
    #18
    Toplink
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Toplink


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    Thanks all, truly. Going to sleep now but looking up Headspace first thing tomorrow:-)

    'Calm' is another very good app for this. I do for 10 mins most mornings.


  • Options
    #19
    blindsider
    Registered Users Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭blindsider


    OP - have you ever tried Tai Chi?

    Might be worth considering.

    Like all these things, everyone finds their own 'thing'.

    Sometimes people associate Tai Chi with yoga - it's not like yoga, although they compliment one another. It's also not a martial art, they are related - but you're not learning self-defence or anything close to it.

    Might try some of the apps mentioned by others - thanks for sharing!


  • Options
    #20
    Blacktie.
    Registered Users Posts: 2,903 ✭✭✭Blacktie.


    What are the benefits of mindfulness like techniques if you're not particularly stressed?


  • Options
    #21
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    People make money by telling you to do things that you could just do for free.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    jimbobaloobob
    Registered Users Posts: 5,153 ✭✭✭jimbobaloobob


    5uspect wrote: »
    People make money by telling you to do things that you could just do for free.

    There's many apparent benefits. I guess for many it's that dedicated time to themselves to focus on personal needs and head space to deal with a variety of ordeals be they health, social or financial pressures. Ive never done it but I know many who do following traumatic health events in their lives. All have reported that it helped them to deal with their stresses better but I guess that's all to varying degrees.


  • Options
    #23
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    jimbobaloobob wrote: »
    There's many apparent benefits. I guess for many it's that dedicated time to themselves to focus on personal needs and head space to deal with a variety of ordeals be they health, social or financial pressures. Ive never done it but I know many who do following traumatic health events in their lives. All have reported that it helped them to deal with their stresses better but I guess that's all to varying degrees.

    See my post on the previous page about apparent benefits.
    You can call it what ever you want, yoga, meditation, mindfulness, they're just dressing up stretching, resting, exercise, healthy eating etc in a commercial mantra. If people really need to part with the cash they get so stressed to earn to be told to do these things there's a bigger problem here.


  • Options
    #24
    jimbobaloobob
    Registered Users Posts: 5,153 ✭✭✭jimbobaloobob


    5uspect wrote: »
    See my post on the previous page about apparent benefits.
    You can call it what ever you want, yoga, meditation, mindfulness, they're just dressing up stretching, resting, exercise, healthy eating etc in a commercial mantra. If people really need to part with the cash they get so stressed to earn to be told to do these things there's a bigger problem here.


    I have read your earlier post but sure if someone needs to pay something for the inspiration to make changes to their lifestyle and cope better theres no harm in that. Not everyone can master healthy eating, stress, stretching, exercise without paying into it to develop a timeframe to practice it and learn and see if it will lead to possible change.

    From what I know of mindfulness it doesn't involve any of the activities that you mentioned above. As I mentioned in a previous post mindfulness is a modern day term that has been coined to the practice of taking a step back and looking at methods of dealing with what life deals an individual. If they pay something to deal with it and it works good for them.


  • Options
    #25
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    5uspect wrote: »
    See my post on the previous page about apparent benefits.
    You can call it what ever you want, yoga, meditation, mindfulness, they're just dressing up stretching, resting, exercise, healthy eating etc in a commercial mantra. If people really need to part with the cash they get so stressed to earn to be told to do these things there's a bigger problem here.

    I'm looking for something FREE. Not looking to pay for it. Not that there would be anything wrong with that if I did. Life is for living and we don't always do what we are SUPPOSED to do. Looking down from your high horse isn't helpful.


  • Options
    #26
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    All I'm doing is simply questioning the motives of the Mindfulness movement from a skeptical standpoint. It's the same stance I take with homeopathy, acupuncture, yoga and a whole host of alternative therapies that make claims that simply don't stand up when studied and can be dangerous. The meta-analysis I mentioned took many of the existing studies on the technique and collated the results and found little or no benefit. There may be parts of such a therapy that work but usually not for the reasons the practitioners claim. (Homeopathy is utterly devoid of any active ingredients but could potentially be an ethical placebo but homeopaths refuse to acknowledge the scientific data in favour of their water memory claims)

    I'm not denying that you're suffering from stress. I'm not saying that it's not difficult or that it is somehow a lesser ailment to suffer, far from it. However when it comes to mental health it's easy to make claims about treatments since the problems can be so nebulous and difficult to pin down. These are our brains we're talking about after all they're complex machines and they are 'us'. You can't always treat mental health problems like a cut or an infection with a band-aid or penicillin.

    My concern is that with this uncertainty comes the vultures, or even worse the true believers, who will spout nonsense in the face of facts, to sell their magical remedies. I'm not saying you shouldn't try it but I would just urge you to be cautious.


  • Options
    #27
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,554 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    5uspect wrote: »
    All I'm doing is simply questioning the motives of the Mindfulness movement from a skeptical standpoint. It's the same stance I take with homeopathy, acupuncture, yoga and a whole host of alternative therapies that make claims that simply don't stand up when studied and can be dangerous. The meta-analysis I mentioned took many of the existing studies on the technique and collated the results and found little or no benefit. There may be parts of such a therapy that work but usually not for the reasons the practitioners claim. (Homeopathy is utterly devoid of any active ingredients but could potentially be an ethical placebo but homeopaths refuse to acknowledge the scientific data in favour of their water memory claims)

    I'm not denying that you're suffering from stress. I'm not saying that it's not difficult or that it is somehow a lesser ailment to suffer, far from it. However when it comes to mental health it's easy to make claims about treatments since the problems can be so nebulous and difficult to pin down. These are our brains we're talking about after all they're complex machines and they are 'us'. You can't always treat mental health problems like a cut or an infection with a band-aid or penicillin.

    My concern is that with this uncertainty comes the vultures, or even worse the true believers, who will spout nonsense in the face of facts, to sell their magical remedies. I'm not saying you shouldn't try it but I would just urge you to be cautious.

    I'm not sure what you think people part with their money for in relation to mindfulness. Genuinely.

    A cd/mp3/book?

    The vast majority of people only go that far.


  • Options
    #28
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    5uspect wrote: »
    All I'm doing is simply questioning the motives of the Mindfulness movement from a skeptical standpoint. It's the same stance I take with homeopathy, acupuncture, yoga and a whole host of alternative therapies that make claims that simply don't stand up when studied and can be dangerous. The meta-analysis I mentioned took many of the existing studies on the technique and collated the results and found little or no benefit. There may be parts of such a therapy that work but usually not for the reasons the practitioners claim. (Homeopathy is utterly devoid of any active ingredients but could potentially be an ethical placebo but homeopaths refuse to acknowledge the scientific data in favour of their water memory claims)

    I'm not denying that you're suffering from stress. I'm not saying that it's not difficult or that it is somehow a lesser ailment to suffer, far from it. However when it comes to mental health it's easy to make claims about treatments since the problems can be so nebulous and difficult to pin down. These are our brains we're talking about after all they're complex machines and they are 'us'. You can't always treat mental health problems like a cut or an infection with a band-aid or penicillin.

    My concern is that with this uncertainty comes the vultures, or even worse the true believers, who will spout nonsense in the face of facts, to sell their magical remedies. I'm not saying you shouldn't try it but I would just urge you to be cautious.


    Thanks.

    To be honest, I'm not overly stressed. I don't do stress. When I say stress, for me, it's a few negative feelings or thoughts that are creeping in. A feeling of being overwhelmed. A feeling of helplessness. It will pass (for me).

    However, I thought learning something about mindfulness and appropriate techniques might be helpful. I'm very much of the opinion 'Google it' but thought somebody might have some knowledge that Google may not throw out easily! I don't wish to spend money on it, unless a particular CD or book takes my eye.

    I too am sceptical and doubtful of the benefits of the various things you listed, but it truly does help people. Yes of course some are out to take advantage of others and encourage them to part with their money, but for some people, they find reflexology etc extremely beneficial. Even if it IS a placebo affect - what harm, if the person feels better?

    The mind can be an extremely powerful thing.


  • Options
    #29
    gymfreak
    Registered Users Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭gymfreak


    5uspect wrote: »
    It's not my opinion. To quote the meta-analysis cited on the Wiki article on mindfulness:



    I'm all for positive thinking, relaxation, healthy eating and exercise, I don't like the notion that it should be tied up in some new age philosophy and sold as a product that somehow is better than the former.

    Hi Suspect,
    I followed that link and unfortunately I can not read the full article??? There is only an abstract?? The problem with a metanalysis is...they basically take a load of separate studies and put them together to form a hypothesis. From that wiki link I can not find the inclusion or exclusion criteria for the studies that were used? It does not seem that all the studies chosen were based on mindfulness...therefore for statement earlier that there has been evidence to show that mindfulness does not work...is in fact incorrect.

    I've attached a journal article below that details the effectiveness that mindfulness has on sports performance, this paper was peer reviewed and published in the sports psychologist journal. The OP specifically asked about Mindfulness and not about meditation in generally, there is in fact a difference. Not that I'm sticking up for either...I just want to make people aware of the fact that research has proved Mindfulness to be effective.


  • Options
    #30
    strawdog
    Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭strawdog


    Personally I'm in two minds about mindfulness (would say excuse the pun but in some ways, its literally true).

    Against mindfulness - there's definitely alot of woo out there. I think that's inevitable with anything that approaches mind/body health in this way. You do have to keep your critical hat on and I'd agree that caution is good policy. I also get concerned that it can lead to a kind of passivity. If you're too busy following your breath and the feel of your feet on the ground etc.. you can miss some of the important things going on around you. Sometimes you need to be stressed and have tunnel vision to respond appropriately to whats going on.

    However as someone who can on occasion get overly stressed and anxious, it has proved a useful tool for me to switch off my brain, for instance when I'm lying in bed unable to sleep because my mind is turning. Its a way (admittedly amongst others) of breaking the feedback loop of anxiety. For people who don't have stress/worries it can be useful just to increase awareness of your present surrounding and to feel your body sensations which we tend to screen out. In this context, it certainly doesn't do any harm.

    I've never paid a cent for anything mindfulness related. Through youtube/apps/library etc there really is little need to shell out. To focus on studies, for me makes it a bit too goal orientated. I don't really care how effects my productivity or how healthy it is for me. It's not something I subscribe to or believe in, its just something I test out and play around with because it offers a different way of seeing things.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    gymfreak wrote: »
    Hi Suspect,
    I followed that link and unfortunately I can not read the full article??? There is only an abstract??
    Here is a PDF.
    Google Scholar often has convenient PDF links off to the right side if you don't have access to a University Library.
    The problem with a metanalysis is...they basically take a load of separate studies and put them together to form a hypothesis. From that wiki link I can not find the inclusion or exclusion criteria for the studies that were used? It does not seem that all the studies chosen were based on mindfulness...therefore for statement earlier that there has been evidence to show that mindfulness does not work...is in fact incorrect.

    That is the strength of the meta-analysis! There is a well documented publication bias in the medical literature. Often Academics will not publish negative results, i.e. that a treatment has no effect and even more disturbingly some Journals will refuse to publish negative results. This is a huge problem and hence my deep rooted skepticism about medical claims in particular when authors use statistical tools that can be easily manipulated.

    You also don't seem to understand the purpose of a meta-analysis. They do not collate studies with the goal of forming a hypothesis - this is the purpose of the original studies. Say you conduct a trial of Mindfulness, your hypothesis is that the method improves sporting achievement. The trial data seems to support your claim, you publish a paper in a Journal showing that your hypothesis has not been disproven by the data. Others do similar work with different degrees of quality. The purpose meta-analysis is to evaluate all of these studies and see if this hypothesis still holds true. It does not form a new hypothesis but combines all the data, weighted on it's quality (adherence to proper control, sample size etc) to give a better test of the already proposed hypothesis. It is a test of the research itself and a hugely important tool to weed out bias.

    The statement I made was that mindfulness does not work any better than other activities. This is exactly what the meta-analysis states.

    [QUOTE=Goyal et al.]Our review found moderate SOE (strength of evidence) that mindfulness meditation programs are beneficial for reducing anxiety, depression, and pain severity, and low SOE that they may lead to improvement in any dimension of negative affect when compared with nonspecific active controls. There was no advantage of meditation programs over specific therapies they were compared with. Otherwise, much of the evidence was insufficient to address the comparisons for most of the questions.[/QUOTE]

    You are hypothesising that Mindfulness would perform better had the meta-analysis focused on just Mindfulness (which is as yet undefined and without actually seeing the paper!) yet you have not provided any evidence to support this claim.
    I've attached a journal article below that details the effectiveness that mindfulness has on sports performance, this paper was peer reviewed and published in the sports psychologist journal. The OP specifically asked about Mindfulness and not about meditation in generally, there is in fact a difference. Not that I'm sticking up for either...I just want to make people aware of the fact that research has proved Mindfulness to be effective.

    The paper you did provide relates to sports performance, not stress, and had the words "An Initial Investigation" in the title. The paper had just 13 participants, 7 of which were control subjects, and the testing was a simple questionnaire. In the face of the large number of studies in the meta-analysis I'm simply flabbergasted. If this isn't cherry picking I don't know what is.


Advertisement