I don't want to stay

jimd2 · 31-01-2016 12:44pm

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

I've seen homework for my nephew in primary school in Clare. It was "Write a list of the things you are grateful to god for having." One can only imagine what pernicious **** the teacher was pushing in addition to that bull****. On the other hand, I have two friends who teach in primary schools and spend no time on religion. If forced to they read a few passages from the bible once a term that are of historical interest. It really is the luck of the draw, but there's no point in pretending that a substantial portion of Irish schools are run by true believer.

I agree and in all professions there are huge variations in approach, experiences (including the medical profession as we saw this week).

The OP made a statement alleging there was a strong possibility of her son being taught about totally insane concepts like transubstantiation, saints with 'stigmatas', relics, moving statues, holy healing tourism hotspots etc. and then went on to talk about 'witch' trials.:eek:

I am once again asking for some example in recent years in the locality the OP lives in or, in fact, from anyone anywhere in Ireland where this stuff has been trotted out by the teachers in Irish schools.

I know that we dont know everything that goes on in the classroom and I appreciate that but as I said earlier I am really really interested on where the OP got that impression.

Personally I think the OP should stick it out if this is the only reason for wanting to leave. Your lives should not be centered and focused on just how the child's relatively brief period in school goes. Your overall lives and future is a much bigger factor.

catbear · 31-01-2016 12:53pm

What I don't I believe is that this issue would make someone pack up and move their family to the other side of the world. When I left the southern hemisphere it was for multitude of reasons. If I said to my Kiwi friends I'm leaving just because in principle I'm not a monarchist and I can't accept the Queen as head of state they'd laugh at me. None of them are monarchists either but it doesn't stop them living there.

Hotblack Desiato · 31-01-2016 1:01pm

haveringchick wrote: »

But her OH unless they were marooned on a desert island must have been in touch with his family, were there no visits home? None?
Plus you don't just forget what your family are like, your entire teenage years, the pressure, the constraints, the twitching curtains.

What's that got to do with schools?

It's not Catholicsm. The Catholicsm is gone

>90% of primary schools under RCC control says otherwise.
Third level institutions employing RC clergy using taxpayer funds says otherwise.
8th Amendment says otherwise.
Pubs closed on Good Friday says otherwise.
Etc.

It's our culture
It's who we are
Unless you've lived in proper rural Ireland you can't comment

How supremely arrogant.
The education system here is a relic of the past, it is NOT a reflection of Irish people today and how they live and want to live.
Gay marriage legalised, more than 1/3 of all marriages (and growing fast) are now non-church, mass attendance going off a cliff. That is Ireland today.
Like I said, the system reflects a time-warp of how Irish culture used to be, and who Irish people used to be, 80 and 90 years ago.

There was no reason for thinking it would have changed
And no excuse for not knowing before hand that it hadn't

So you've nothing constructive to offer. "Get used to it or F off", then, is it?

alan partridge aha · 31-01-2016 1:06pm

Head back home, oh and put Ray D'Arcy in your hand luggage, he should fit. Good luck.

Icepick · 31-01-2016 1:23pm

Kudos for not willing to put up and shut up.

Things are slowly but surely improving:
Rule prioritising religion classes in primary schools abolished

Minister for Education Jan O’Sullivan has abolished a 50-year old official rule which gives religion classes a privileged status at primary level, paving the way for a potential reduction in time spent on faith formation.

At present, 30 minutes of each primary school day is allocated to religious education - twice the amount of time devoted to subjects such as science or physical education.

Speaking at the Irish Primary Principals Network conference on Thursday, Ms O’Sullivan said the 1998 Education Act protects the right of schools to set aside reasonable time in each school day for subjects relating to the school’s ethos.

“But Rule 68 was a symbol. A symbol of our past, and not our future. The language in the Rule was archaic. And I’m glad it’s gone,” she said.

Ms O’Sullivan said she has also directed departmental officials to begin to identify other rules for rescinding.

“It is anachronistic for us to still look to a set of rules drafted in 1965, many of which will have been superseded by curricular or legislative changes,” she said.

Michael Barron, Equate executive director, said: “Rule 68 stated that religious instruction was by far the most important part of the curriculum. This rule was outdated and reflected neither 21st century Irish teaching practices or the reality of the diversity of our families and communities.”

also move somewhere more civilized with an educate together school

looksee · 31-01-2016 1:33pm

jimd2 wrote: »

The OP made a statement alleging there was a strong possibility of her son being taught about totally insane concepts like transubstantiation, saints with 'stigmatas', relics, moving statues, holy healing tourism hotspots etc. and then went on to talk about 'witch' trials.:eek:

Well agreed the moving statues are a bit out of date, but all the others are still current. And the OP only went on to mention witch trials by saying that all the other stuff belonged with the time of witch trials. And she did not say anything about a 'strong possibility', she just did not want any possibility at all.

Personally I think the OP should stick it out if this is the only reason for wanting to leave. Your lives should not be centered and focused on just how the child's relatively brief period in school goes. Your overall lives and future is a much bigger factor.

I do in fact agree with this. But really the op's desire to stay in Ireland, or leave, is a bit irrelevant to the discussion, in spite of being the title of the thread. The discussion comes back to what she understands of the Irish education system, and she is not wrong. Whether it should be enough of an issue to force her to leave is another matter.

My eldest kids went through primary school (they are now in their 40s) in both a city religious school and in a small rural school. My youngest, much younger, attended a town convent primary and secondary school. My husband would be considered very traditional and religious, I was fading fast at that stage, but went along with seeing them through the various ceremonies of their childhood. They were generally given a good education, overlaid with a lot of nonsense -

'Sister says that there are devils living under the ground',

'Mrs X says that if two people who are not both Catholics get married the one who is not a Catholic will leave. Are you going to leave us Mum?' (child actually not unduly worried, but visit to school resulted in the teacher saying 'oh I did not realise there were any mixed marriages in the school, or I would not have said it' :rolleyes:)

'We are having a cake sale (thank you mothers) for the lourdes pilgrimage'

And the bane of my life - we are going to be in a concert for the Pioneers (somewhere up the country, a ramshackle thing that went on till 11 at night with young children up way past their bedtimes).

And they all attended Mass with their father every week, and said prayers every night.

And at the end of it? None of them are regular Mass goers, they all gave up around college age and are all perfectly capable of independent thought on the subject of religion. Even though the religion is still in the schools, I do think that there is a good deal more rationality now than there was.

So while I would like to see schools made equal and open to everyone, without the overlay of fantasy, and will do all I can to argue against the grip of the RC church on secular aspects of life, it is possible to survive this stuff. I don't think your child will be scarred for life by it; at most it is a lot of wasted time in school, and needs a bit of effort to clarify what is actual education and what is made-up stuff when they get home.

cnocbui · 31-01-2016 2:37pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Debt/GDP ratio for Ireland is now below 100%.

Australia's debt/GDP is much lower (huge country, lots of resources, not that many people to spend it on) but not going in the right direction and the backside has fallen out of the commodities markets.

Ireland's national debt is down, but that is forecast to be temporary:

Australia - 'not that many to spend it on'? That means more for each person :-)

The world is in a downturn and it's going to get a lot worse, Australia is probably approaching bottom, but it still is in a much better position than Ireland is. Per capita Gross National Income in Ireland is US$46,550, in Australia it is US$64,540.

The tax burden as a percentage of GDP for Ireland is 30.8. For Australia it is 25.8.

I did calculations of the tax on an income of €35,000 for a single person with two dependent children for both Australia and Ireland in 2015 using the 10 year average of the exchange rate using the Deloite and ATO (comprehensive) tax calculators so the results take into account PRSI, USC and Medicare.

In Ireland, the tax came to €6,695. For Australia it was €6,292. That is pretty close, but you have to spend it, so taking into account VAT at 23% and GST of 10%, your purchasing power in Ireland would actually be €21,795, while in Australia it would be €25,837.

So taking income and expenditure taxes into consideration, you would be €4,042 better off per year in Australia on an income of €35,000.

This doesn't take into account those sneaky extras the Irish government likes to add like the 'levies' on every form of insurance you pay.

Now the OP is from NZ. I am rather puzzled as to why she says they would be financially worse off there. The Tradingeconomics site gives the Personal tax rate for Ireland as 48, 45 for Australia and a tiny 33 for NZ. GST in NZ is 15%. This website allows for a cost of living comparrison between cities. I used Dublin and Auckland. Dublin is 6% more expensive than Auckland. Given an assumption that the income tax rate is a lot lower, I would think one would be far better off in Auckland, or NZ in general given the same income.

recedite · 31-01-2016 2:55pm

jimd2 wrote: »

The OP made a statement alleging there was a strong possibility of her son being taught about totally insane concepts like transubstantiation, saints with 'stigmatas', relics, moving statues, holy healing tourism hotspots etc. and then went on to talk about 'witch' trials.:eek:

I am once again asking for some example in recent years in the locality the OP lives in or, in fact, from anyone anywhere in Ireland where this stuff has been trotted out by the teachers in Irish schools.

Are you for real? What do you think is supposed to happen at holy communion, if not "transubstantiation"? It is a basic doctrine. And first holy communion classes held inside schools are one of the main methods of RC indoctrination.
Even if the teacher does not teach about the likes of stigmata etc.. by endorsing and teaching as fact the religion which alleges such miracles, the child must assume these are also fact when hearing about them outside the school.

looksee wrote: »

'Mrs X says that if two people who are not both Catholics get married the one who is not a Catholic will leave. Are you going to leave us Mum?'

This one is still current, apparently. I have heard anecdotally that the phrase "those families who pray together stay together" is a favourite priestly quote in our local "parish".

magicbastarder · 31-01-2016 2:58pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Now the OP is from NZ. I am rather puzzled as to why she says they would be financially worse off there.
...
I would think one would be far better off in Auckland, or NZ in general given the same income.

this is the key point. you seem to be assuming the same income, but GNI per capita in ireland is 50% higher than in NZ; obviously one figure does not paint the entire picture, but it's a significant difference.

re debt and australia; australia's household debt per capita is nearly 50% higher than in ireland, and they're in a property bubble which would seem to be outstripping ours; several months ago, the median property price in sydney hit AUS$1m; i.e. around €660k; it was €430k at the peak in dublin (though this may have been the average rather than the median, and obviously house to apartment ratios may come into play.
i've several cousins living in australia, both born there and emigrated there, and it's fascinating to hear them talk about property and propound the 'things are different here' in the same way irish people were talking up until about 2007.

recedite · 31-01-2016 3:12pm

Anyway Kiwi, whether you decide to move to NZ or not, I would urge you not to let religion get between you and the OH. The churches would, if they could, break up a family, even a whole community, rather than lose a child to their influence. The Fethard incident is a remarkable piece of Irish social history.
Thankfully things have moved on a lot since then, and their pernicious influence has waned. I agree with other posters who say that little kiwi will be less influenced at school than you might suppose, especially with them having the invaluable asset of an alternative viewpoint at home which provides some balance.

Stealthfins · 31-01-2016 3:28pm

Hi Kiwi,
Have you thought of maybe talking to a therapist.

It sounds like you're maybe looking into all this too much.

A lot of people turn out ok and the influence of the church isn't as intense as it was back in the 80's.

My son is 15 and made up his own mind about God.
He doesn't believe in it.
He knows I have an interest in theology and mindfulness,but I never mentioned it or even spoke with him about it.

He's happy with his decision and so am I.

yqtwqxqm · 31-01-2016 3:34pm

Im an Athiest, the wife is a practising Catholic.
The kids have never had a problem and neither have we.
I see too many people just dying to be offended these days.

Idle Passerby · 31-01-2016 3:50pm

Im not a parent but it strikes me as slightly hysterical that parents dont have faith in their own childrens intelligence. They will inevitably form their own opinions regardless of what nonsence they are told in school. I know young minds are pliable and all that but most of us were told a magical man comes down a chimney once a year and yet it hasnt made a us population of die hard chimney worshippers.

I was brought up in a non-religious home.We werent 'taught' any belief. I understood by the time I was about 8 that my parents didnt believe what my teacher claimed we should. It didnt confuse or alienate me, it was just a case of 'some people are into this, my parents are not' and it did prompt me to wonder about what I thought personally.
Indoctrination of any kind is wrong and I think that goes for vehement denial that children be exposed to differing opinions.
Give kids some credit.

With the facebook comment from the elderly aunt, this goes for every subject, posting strongly held beliefs on social media will inevitably lead to learning that people you know disagree with those opinions. It may never have even cone up if it wasnt posted on social media.

smacl · 31-01-2016 5:01pm

Idle Passerby wrote: »

Im not a parent but it strikes me as slightly hysterical that parents dont have faith in their own childrens intelligence. They will inevitably form their own opinions regardless of what nonsence they are told in school.

But intelligence isn't wisdom, and as a parent, looking after the best interests of my children is not a matter of faith so much as research and reasoning.

Indoctrination of any kind is wrong and I think that goes for vehement denial that children be exposed to differing opinions.

As a parent, you inevitably teach your kids your own value system, which I suppose you could equate to indoctrination. For me this includes ideas like be kind, be fair, enjoy life, be inquisitive, participate where possible, try new things out, be honest (except when playing poker) etc... Unfortunately, this can fall foul of a Catholic education which teaches a mythology that cannot be questioned, and must be learnt and recited as truth even though it seems dubious if not down right ridiculous. The ethos and value system is archaic, and up until quite recently misogynistic, sectarian, and openly homophobic.

No problem exposing children to differing religious traditions, but in doing it is also worth exploring what those traditions involve, warts and all.

jimd2 · 31-01-2016 5:17pm

yqtwqxqm wrote: »

Im an Athiest, the wife is a practising Catholic.
The kids have never had a problem and neither have we.
I see too many people just dying to be offended these days.

Well said

jimd2 · 31-01-2016 5:23pm

recedite wrote: »

Are you for real? What do you think is supposed to happen at holy communion, if not "transubstantiation"? It is a basic doctrine. And first holy communion classes held inside schools are one of the main methods of RC indoctrination.
Even if the teacher does not teach about the likes of stigmata etc.. by endorsing and teaching as fact the religion which alleges such miracles, the child must assume these are also fact when hearing about them outside the school.

This one is still current, apparently. I have heard anecdotally that the phrase "those families who pray together stay together" is a favourite priestly quote in our local "parish".

Lesson number 1...attack the post not the poster.

The OP made a strong part of the original post the expectation that this stuff would be taught to the little one. I just asked for examples where this was happening. I take your point on transubstantiation but even that I have never heard mentioned from my children. I am still waiting for these examples from the OP, you or whoever of stuff like moving statues, stigmata etc being taught routinely or even occasionally in Irish schools.

The OP threw this out as part of a rant against Irish schools and Irish teachers and I am just asking for examples.

And to answer you first did at me....yes I am for real. As I said attack the post not the poster please.

haveringchick · 31-01-2016 5:58pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What's that got to do with schools?

>90% of primary schools under RCC control says otherwise.
Third level institutions employing RC clergy using taxpayer funds says otherwise.
8th Amendment says otherwise.
Pubs closed on Good Friday says otherwise.
Etc.

How supremely arrogant.
The education system here is a relic of the past, it is NOT a reflection of Irish people today and how they live and want to live.
Gay marriage legalised, more than 1/3 of all marriages (and growing fast) are now non-church, mass attendance going off a cliff. That is Ireland today.
Like I said, the system reflects a time-warp of how Irish culture used to be, and who Irish people used to be, 80 and 90 years ago.

So you've nothing constructive to offer. "Get used to it or F off", then, is it?

Actually what's arrogant is arriving to live in a foreign country amongst your husbands extended family and expecting them to change their way of life to accommodate your sensibilities, and the local school to change its ethos to accommodate your child, while pretending that you had no idea how it would be, despite your husband having spent his entire childhood rooted firmly in that very environment.
That's arrogance, frankly.

eviltwin · 31-01-2016 6:10pm

haveringchick wrote: »

Actually what's arrogant is arriving to live in a foreign country amongst your husbands extended family and expecting them to change their way of life to accommodate your sensibilities, and the local school to change its ethos to accommodate your child, while pretending that you had no idea how it would be, despite your husband having spent his entire childhood rooted firmly in that very environment.
That's arrogance, frankly.

Where did Kiwi say she wanted all that exactly?

She may be a newcomer to these shores but I'm born and raised here and I also feel,along with a large number of people,that the educational system doesn't reflect the reality of life in modern Ireland. Should we all just keep our mouth shut too?

cnocbui · 31-01-2016 6:29pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is the key point. you seem to be assuming the same income, but GNI per capita in ireland is 50% higher than in NZ; obviously one figure does not paint the entire picture, but it's a significant difference.

re debt and australia; australia's household debt per capita is nearly 50% higher than in ireland, and they're in a property bubble which would seem to be outstripping ours; several months ago, the median property price in sydney hit AUS$1m; i.e. around €660k; it was €430k at the peak in Dublin (though this may have been the average rather than the median, and obviously house to apartment ratios may come into play.
i've several cousins living in Australia, both born there and emigrated there, and it's fascinating to hear them talk about property and propound the 'things are different here' in the same way irish people were talking up until about 2007.

Housing, at first glance, certainly does appear to be the one big downside to Australia, i'll grant you, but it isn't quite what it seems.

Household/personal debt I think is irrelevant when comparing the financial cost/benefit because it is a matter of personal choice that an individual has control over. How much you might have chosen to take on in debt is irrelevant to me.

National debt is the biggie, because it is not optional. Governments will not give you a choice as to whether you take it on or when they will make you cough up to repay it. Ireland's national debt per capita is €44,731. If you really want to lose sleep and terrify yourself, work out how much that works out to for each taxpayer. Stuff it, i'll work it out...... that comes to €337,000 of national debt per Irish taxpayer. Australia's national dept per capita is €17,542, or about a third that of Ireland's.

Do you remember the debt crisis in Cyprus? It's my belief that at some point, the haircut option will be exercised in Ireland because the govt will never be able to tax the population enough by conventional means to make any meaningful impact on the incredible level of national debt. This means they will simply confiscate assets like bank deposits. Don't have any? They'll just tack on €70,000 to your mortgage. Death duties will become 90% of the estate.

Maybe if the govt could scrounge €100 B in back taxes from multinationals... fat chance.

Germany will never allow cancellation of Eurozone national debt. What has been foisted on Ireland, Greece, etc exceeds the ability of the recipients to repay. Just ask the IMF.

Now, to houses: Australians are stark raving mad. Complete loons. House prices there are unsustainable. The difference between there and here, though, isn't as much as you might think by my calculations. The trouble is, Irish house prices seem to me to be unrealistically low. They aren't what they should be so comparing current prices with Australia isn't straightforward.

Leaving Loon capital Sydney out of it and Dublin, let's take Brisbane and Cork. I recently was pricing home insurance and was rather shocked to discover that the replacement value of just the house was 130% of the current market value of the entire property. So if Irish house prices are less than the cost of building them, that is an unsustainabilty and loonishness in the other direction.

So it doesn't seem to me to be reasonable to compare market value. Construction cost seems more realistic. Using construction cost calculators for cork and Brisbane for a detached 3 bedroom bungalow of 118 m² the cost turns out to be €172,000 in Cork. For Brisbane it's €134,412. The difference is unsurprising given Australian houses are built to a low standard and don't have lots of expensive bits like insulated slabs, wall insulation, double glazing, thick walls or central heating, or an extra 13% of GST on materials.

So really, the housing cost differential looks to be quite exaggerated.

Talking about insulation and double glazing. Another thing I have considered is that Ireland has an average annual temperature of 10° C - for Brisbane it's 20.6° C. In Ireland you have to pay substantial heating costs to maintain a house temperature you get for free in Brisbane. Call it the hidden weather tax.

KingBrian2 · 31-01-2016 6:50pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Housing, at first glance, certainly does appear to be the one big downside to Australia, i'll grant you, but it isn't quite what it seems.

Household/personal debt I think is irrelevant when comparing the financial cost/benefit because it is a matter of personal choice that an individual has control over. How much you might have chosen to take on in debt is irrelevant to me.

National debt is the biggie, because it is not optional. Governments will not give you a choice as to whether you take it on or when they will make you cough up to repay it. Ireland's national debt per capita is €44,731. If you really want to lose sleep and terrify yourself, work out how much that works out to for each taxpayer. Stuff it, i'll work it out...... that comes to €337,000 of national debt per Irish taxpayer. Australia's national dept per capita is €17,542, or about a third that of Ireland's.

Do you remember the debt crisis in Cyprus? It's my belief that at some point, the haircut option will be exercised in Ireland because the govt will never be able to tax the population enough by conventional means to make any meaningful impact on the incredible level of national debt. This means they will simply confiscate assets like bank deposits. Don't have any? They'll just tack on €70,000 to your mortgage. Death duties will become 90% of the estate.

Maybe if the govt could scrounge €100 B in back taxes from multinationals... fat chance.

Germany will never allow cancellation of Eurozone national debt. What has been foisted on Ireland, Greece, etc exceeds the ability of the recipients to repay. Just ask the IMF.

Now, to houses: Australians are stark raving mad. Complete loons. House prices there are unsustainable. The difference between there and here, though, isn't as much as you might think by my calculations. The trouble is, Irish house prices seem to me to be unrealistically low. They aren't what they should be so comparing current prices with Australia isn't straightforward.

Leaving Loon capital Sydney out of it and Dublin, let's take Brisbane and Cork. I recently was pricing home insurance and was rather shocked to discover that the replacement value of just the house was 130% of the current market value of the entire property. So if Irish house prices are less than the cost of building them, that is an unsustainabilty and loonishness in the other direction.

So it doesn't seem to me to be reasonable to compare market value. Construction cost seems more realistic. Using construction cost calculators for cork and Brisbane for a detached 3 bedroom bungalow of 118 m² the cost turns out to be €172,000 in Cork. For Brisbane it's €134,412. The difference is unsurprising given Australian houses are built to a low standard and don't have lots of expensive bits like insulated slabs, wall insulation, double glazing, thick walls or central heating, or an extra 13% of GST on materials.

So really, the housing cost differential looks to be quite exaggerated.

Talking about insulation and double glazing. Another thing I have considered is that Ireland has an average annual temperature of 10° C - for Brisbane it's 20.6° C. In Ireland you have to pay substantial heating costs to maintain a house temperature you get for free in Brisbane. Call it the hidden weather tax.

So your argument is the rich are paying too much tax in Ireland but you want to go to big business Australia because Ireland is not taxing the multinationals. Talk about double standards. Lets look at a better comparison. Are their more millionaires and billionaire's in Australia or Ireland before we start taxing everyone.

cnocbui · 31-01-2016 7:01pm

KingBrian2 wrote: »

So your argument is the rich are paying too much tax in Ireland but you want to go to big business Australia because Ireland is not taxing the multinationals. Talk about double standards. Lets look at a better comparison. Are their more millionaires and billionaire's in Australia or Ireland before we start taxing everyone.

Read my post again. You didn't understand it.

Stealthfins · 31-01-2016 7:05pm

eviltwin wrote:

She may be a newcomer to these shores but I'm born and raised here and I also feel,along with a large number of people,that the educational system doesn't reflect the reality of life in modern Ireland. Should we all just keep our mouth shut too?

There could be 6 different ways of interpretation of your post.

Im a father of a 15 year old boy.
The only time I had a problem with the church was when my son came home from school telling me that the teacher said until he has to do his communion,he's to be brought to mass every Sunday.

I'm not a mass goer,I made an appointment to meet the teacher,the teacher blamed the parish priest.

I met the parish priest and he said it's not compulsory,if you want to go surfing fishing on the Sunday fire away.

He couldn't really give a toss,we often pass each other on the street and stop for banter lol

catbear · 31-01-2016 7:06pm

This is such a messed up situation. I know loads of people settle with kids in Aus/NZ and if one of them said that the only reason for uprooting their family from there was because they personally object to a monarch being head of state I'd think HRH is the least of their problems.

looksee · 31-01-2016 7:12pm

catbear wrote: »

This is such a messed up situation. I know loads of people settle with kids in Aus/NZ and if one of them said that the only reason for uprooting their family from there was because they personally object to a monarch being head of state I'd think HRH is the least of their problems.

I really don't think the situation is that messed up at all. Kiwi has been reading too much Boards

and is probably suffering from the Irish winter gloom. The school situation is exasperating, but it is not a reason to up sticks and move unless there are lots of other reasons to do it too.

Give it a couple of months Kiwi and don't worry too much about all the hyper-ventilating that goes on here, little kiwi will survive school, we need to change the situation because it is just plain wrong, but the kids will get through it ok!

KingBrian2 · 31-01-2016 7:13pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Read my post again. You didn't understand it.

Oh I read your post and you spoke about how the gvt in Ireland was allowing the big multinational companies to get off paying their share. Lets look at other similar countries like the US which has extreme levels of wealth inequality. I'm not sure how it works in Australia but I expect a fair taxation system that targets those that can pay not depending on rich or poor. Ireland had one of the most generous welfare systems in the world which is easily abused. Many would believe in cutting taxation completely.

Idle Passerby · 31-01-2016 7:21pm

smacl wrote: »

But intelligence isn't wisdom

True, however wisdom comes through experience and consideration of a range of ideas and viewpoints. Many adults are not 'wise' nevermind primary school children.

[/QUOTE]The ethos and value system is archaic, and up until quite recently misogynistic, sectarian, and openly homophobic.

No problem exposing children to differing religious traditions, but in doing it is also worth exploring what those traditions involve, warts and all.[/QUOTE]

I'm of the opinion that religion shouldn't be taught in school, there are far better uses of school time. I'm not disagreeing with your points regarding it being an outdated belief system. My point was that I don't think being exposed to religion in school will necessarily confuse or upset a child's eventual personal beliefs.

Its annoying and old fashioned that the majority of schools are still run by the church, but I don't believe Catholicism is being forcefully beaten into children in schools as it was in the 1950's.

As I mentioned Im from a non-religious family yet went to Catholic schools through the 80's and 90's and even took all the usual sacraments. My parents left it up to me to decide if I wanted to do communion/confirmation and being a child I wanted to do what my friends were doing. I saw them as social events rather than some sort of contract with the church.

I had formed my own beliefs and ideas regarding religion by my teens and not because either teachers or my parents were telling me what I should believe but because I realised there was more than one way to see the world and it was up to me to decide what my own beliefs/understanding of the world was. Children are impressionable but they do have minds of their own, I think people should give them credit to figure out these things for themselves.

catbear · 31-01-2016 7:22pm

looksee wrote: »

I really don't think the situation is that messed up at all. Kiwi has been reading too much Boards and is probably suffering from the Irish winter gloom. The school situation is exasperating, but it is not a reason to up sticks and move unless there are lots of other reasons to do it too.

Give it a couple of months Kiwi and don't worry too much about all the hyper-ventilating that goes on here, little kiwi will survive school, we need to change the situation because it is just plain wrong, but the kids will get through it ok!

Yeah, that makes sense but if the shoe was on the other foot and some Irish bird told her Kiwi husband and extended family that all the fawning over the royals and pictures of HRH in state schools was too much for her I bet all the posters on some Kiwi atheism and agnostic forum would tell her to cop on. It's part of the cultural furniture and talking it seriously is pointless.

I really feel sorry for the ops family to have to listen to this nonsense.

looksee · 31-01-2016 7:44pm

Well yes, it would be nonsense except that a lot of people agree with her, and children in nz would not have to have half hour lessons on the royal family every morning, and a good chunk of one year taken up with preparation for presentation to the royals, and the royals being introduced into other lessons, and one of the royals acting as patron of the schools to make sure all the royal stuff was being properly applied.

alan partridge aha · 31-01-2016 7:57pm

looksee wrote: »

Well yes, it would be nonsense except that a lot of people agree with her, and children in nz would not have to have half hour lessons on the royal family every morning, and a good chunk of one year taken up with preparation for presentation to the royals, and the royals being introduced into other lessons, and one of the royals acting as patron of the schools to make sure all the royal stuff was being properly applied.

Maybe on boards, but I don't think the majority of people would leave the country because of this. Methinks as other posters have said there is a bigger issue at hand.

cnocbui · 31-01-2016 7:58pm

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Oh I read your post and you spoke about how the gvt in Ireland was allowing the big multinational companies to get off paying their share. Lets look at other similar countries like the US which has extreme levels of wealth inequality. I'm not sure how it works in Australia but I expect a fair taxation system that targets those that can pay not depending on rich or poor. Ireland had one of the most generous welfare systems in the world which is easily abused. Many would believe in cutting taxation completely.

In a quite long post, I happened to mention the corporate tax thing as a very brief grasping at straws as it is the one thing that I can think of that might be done to reduce the national debt by an amount that might actually make a difference to the situation.

I said absolutely nothing about welfare or rich or poor or cutting tax or the US or wealth inequality. I was comparing national debt between Ireland and Australia and the national debts of the two countries and the cost of houses and the comparative tax burden on an individual household.

catbear · 31-01-2016 8:01pm

looksee wrote: »

Well yes, it would be nonsense except that a lot of people agree with her, and children in nz would not have to have half hour lessons on the royal family every morning, and a good chunk of one year taken up with preparation for presentation to the royals, and the royals being introduced into other lessons, and one of the royals acting as patron of the schools to make sure all the royal stuff was being properly applied.

Have you been in one her majesties dominions when she's visiting? They go all out. Then there's the whole oaths thing.....

I [name] solemnly and sincerely affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance
to Her (or His) Majesty [specify the name of the reigning Sovereign, as thus: Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of New Zealand] Her (or His) heirs and successors according to the law
and that I will faithfully observe the laws of New Zealand and fulfil my duties as a New Zealand citizen.

One thing I learned there was not to mess with that, especially when you have to deal with official offices of the crown. you may be dealing with someone who doesn't believe in monarchy but any criticism of it by a non national can be interpreted as hostility to the dominion.

Cabaal · 31-01-2016 8:08pm

Stealthfins wrote: »

There could be 6 different ways of interpretation of your post.

Im a father of a 15 year old boy.
The only time I had a problem with the church was when my son came home from school telling me that the teacher said until he has to do his communion,he's to be brought to mass every Sunday.

I'm not a mass goer,I made an appointment to meet the teacher,the teacher blamed the parish priest.

I met the parish priest and he said it's not compulsory,if you want to go surfing fishing on the Sunday fire away.

He couldn't really give a toss,we often pass each other on the street and stop for banter lol

You know you agreed to raise your child as a catholic when you said you rejected the devil etc when your child was baptised right?

Part of that is going to mass, communion, confirmation etc.

By all means think it's nonsense, but then don't agree to raise your child in that nonsense and don't put your child into the same cycle.

You can believe in a god and be a Christian without subscribing to all the odd Catholic stuff like hating gays, thinking condoms are wrong etc

I'm not getting at you personally, it's just odd to sign up to a club that you can never leave and then not want to follow the club rules and moan when they ask you to do basic stuff like mass every week.

meeeeh · 31-01-2016 8:13pm

I am still not sure if OP wants to avoid irish school system or the in-laws.

Anyway I am not irish and I attended completely secular primary school. It was a big school with about five classes and 150 kids per year. As an atheist parent I very much appreciate our little country backward catholic school my son attends. Frankly religion is at the bottom of the list of things that worry me. In the fifth class a class of kids from a feeder country school joined us and their grades were so much better, more of them progressed to good schools and so on.

While I would prefer non religious schools and schools without patronage, I would pick an average country school before any big city school except fee paying ones. So I definitely don't see any point of moving anywhere else more urban in Ireland unless you are prepared to pay for kids education or you want to avoid in-laws.

alan partridge aha · 31-01-2016 8:22pm

Cabaal wrote: »

You know you agreed to raise your child as a catholic when you said you rejected the devil etc when your child was baptised right?

Part of that is going to mass, communion, confirmation etc.

By all means think it's nonsense, but then don't agree to raise your child in that nonsense and don't put your child into the same cycle.

You can believe in a god and be a Christian without subscribing to all the odd Catholic stuff like hating gays, thinking condoms are wrong etc

I'm not getting at you personally, it's just odd to sign up to a club that you can never leave and then not want to follow the club rules and moan when they ask you to do basic stuff like mass every week.

Agree with most however, RCC does not hate gays but does object to homosexual acts.

recedite · 31-01-2016 8:28pm

cnocbui wrote: »

I recently was pricing home insurance and was rather shocked to discover that the replacement value of just the house was 130% of the current market value of the entire property...

..Australian houses are built to a low standard and don't have lots of expensive bits like insulated slabs, wall insulation, double glazing, thick walls or central heating, or an extra 13% of GST on materials.

Bear in mind though that your existing house has been built to a lesser standard than the replacement would be. So if you were allowed to rebuild it to the same standard of the day it was actually built, the cost would be much less than that 130% mentioned. Much closer to the Australian building costs.

Cabaal · 31-01-2016 8:29pm

alan partridge aha wrote: »

Agree with most however, RCC does not hate gays but does object to homosexual acts.

Thinly failed hatred of gays is what that equals to unfortunately when you claim what a person does is unnatural. A sickening and backward view to hold in this day and age

If I campaigned to deny black people equal rights I doubt somehow if I could claim I wasn't a racist.

alan partridge aha · 31-01-2016 8:34pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Thinly failed hatred of gays is what that equals to unfortunately when you claim what a person does is unnatural. A sickening and backward view to hold in this day and age

If I campaigned to deny black people equal rights I doubt somehow if I could claim I wasn't a racist.

Whatever not going down this root of equality and sameness ,BTW there is quite a few gay priests.

cnocbui · 31-01-2016 8:34pm

recedite wrote: »

Bear in mind though that your existing house has been built to a lesser standard than the replacement would be. So if you were allowed to rebuild it to the same standard of the day it was actually built, the cost would be much less than that 130% mentioned. Much closer to the Australian building costs.

When was my house built, and to what standard?

catbear · 31-01-2016 8:41pm

alan partridge aha wrote: »

Whatever not going down this root of equality and sameness ,BTW there is quite a few gay priests.

Biggest open secret around my area.

looksee · 31-01-2016 8:41pm

Sorry, completely off topic, but every time I see the title of this thread it sets me off singing this

:eek:

eviltwin · 31-01-2016 9:12pm

alan partridge aha wrote: »

Whatever not going down this root of equality and sameness ,BTW there is quite a few gay priests.

So it's not being gay that's the problem, it's gay sex. Same difference. It's unreasonable to expect gay people to remain celibate.

smacl · 31-01-2016 9:32pm

Idle Passerby wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that religion shouldn't be taught in school, there are far better uses of school time. I'm not disagreeing with your points regarding it being an outdated belief system. My point was that I don't think being exposed to religion in school will necessarily confuse or upset a child's eventual personal beliefs.

I agree entirely that religion shouldn't be taught in school, and think any religious instruction should be provided for as an optional extra curricular activity. At the same time, I think schools should have an ethos that actively promotes inclusion, participation and enjoying the learning process. While children can figure out a lot for themselves, left to their own devices things can descend to a Lord of the flies scenario all too easily.

Its annoying and old fashioned that the majority of schools are still run by the church, but I don't believe Catholicism is being forcefully beaten into children in schools as it was in the 1950's.

Indeed, huge improvements in recent times. I think that's where the OP is picking up flak, in the almost Pythonesque sentiment of 'You think its bad now, you missed out on the pure savagery that was the Irish school system just a few decades back when religion was bate into us with a large stick'.

As I mentioned Im from a non-religious family yet went to Catholic schools through the 80's and 90's and even took all the usual sacraments. My parents left it up to me to decide if I wanted to do communion/confirmation and being a child I wanted to do what my friends were doing. I saw them as social events rather than some sort of contract with the church.

I had formed my own beliefs and ideas regarding religion by my teens and not because either teachers or my parents were telling me what I should believe but because I realised there was more than one way to see the world and it was up to me to decide what my own beliefs/understanding of the world was. Children are impressionable but they do have minds of their own, I think people should give them credit to figure out these things for themselves.

Atheist born an bred myself, not even Christened which was considered a bit dodgy back in the 60s. Dabbled with taoism briefly, but more as a philosophy than anything else. Kids also filthy heathens, though eldest elected to go to a Catholic secondary school and briefly became a Buddhist in her early teens much to the consternation of her teachers. The Catholic secondary school is looking to be a poor choice, not because of indoctrination so much as wasted time in what is set to be a busy senior cycle. As you say, religion has no place in the core curriculum, and whatever else about ethos, it should not exclude any children based on their background.

Idle Passerby · 31-01-2016 9:49pm

smacl wrote: »

religion has no place in the core curriculum, and whatever else about ethos, it should not exclude any children based on their background.

I agree. The church is clinging for dear life in a society that for the most part is indifferent to it. A civics style class that gives an outline on a range of ideologies but promotes none would be a healthier alternative, particularly now that Ireland is not just made up of cultural Catholics who practice (or not) to varying degrees, but a range of other belief systems too. That way children would be exposed to other cultures and ways of viewing the world. It could be like Anthropology 101 rather than "this is the one and only way to be a good human being"

Icepick · 31-01-2016 10:22pm

haveringchick wrote: »

Actually what's arrogant is arriving to live in a foreign country amongst your husbands extended family and expecting them to change their way of life to accommodate your sensibilities, and the local school to change its ethos to accommodate your child, while pretending that you had no idea how it would be, despite your husband having spent his entire childhood rooted firmly in that very environment.
That's arrogance, frankly.

OP expected Irish school system to be at least in the 20th century (secular) and that's a compliment.

recedite · 31-01-2016 10:29pm

cnocbui wrote: »

When was my house built, and to what standard?

Put €20 in this box, and then hold out the palm of your hand to me.

Hotblack Desiato · 01-02-2016 9:41am

Stealthfins wrote: »

Hi Kiwi,
Have you thought of maybe talking to a therapist.

Have you? Because she doesn't need to see a therapist, she's doesn't believe imaginary beings are real.

If you're offended by that suggestion, then why say it to Kiwi?

haveringchick wrote: »

Actually what's arrogant is arriving to live in a foreign country amongst your husbands extended family and expecting them to change their way of life to accommodate your sensibilities, and the local school to change its ethos to accommodate your child, while pretending that you had no idea how it would be, despite your husband having spent his entire childhood rooted firmly in that very environment.
That's arrogance, frankly.

She didn't say anything about asking her in-laws to change, just being annoyed at one comment on social media by someone from an older generation who doesn't seem to have the guts to say it to her face. C'est la vie.

It's not unreasonable at all to expect that Ireland's education system in the 21st century would not be stuck in the same mindset as the 1930s, you are repeatedly ignoring this point made by myself and several others.

The way my kids in primary school now are taught is very different from how I and my wife were taught in school, literally everything from how to learn to read and write onwards has changed, so why would Kiwi's husband's experience be relevant?

It would be reasonable to expect that the position of religion in schools would reflect its much, thankfully, diminished position in society generally today, but that's not the case.

Kiwi in IE · 01-02-2016 11:12am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Have you? Because she doesn't need to see a therapist, she's doesn't believe imaginary beings are real.

If you're offended by that suggestion, then why say it to Kiwi?

She didn't say anything about asking her in-laws to change, just being annoyed at one comment on social media by someone from an older generation who doesn't seem to have the guts to say it to her face. C'est la vie.

It's not unreasonable at all to expect that Ireland's education system in the 21st century would not be stuck in the same mindset as the 1930s, you are repeatedly ignoring this point made by myself and several others.

The way my kids in primary school now are taught is very different from how I and my wife were taught in school, literally everything from how to learn to read and write onwards has changed, so why would Kiwi's husband's experience be relevant?

It would be reasonable to expect that the position of religion in schools would reflect its much, thankfully, diminished position in society generally today, but that's not the case.

Thank you HD. This post deserved more than just the thanks button. I stopped responding in here yesterday due to far too many idiotic comments from people who hardly, if ever post in here, having a drive by. So far I need to divorce my husband, see a therapist, be disappointed if my son turns out like OH, I shouldn't have married OH in the first place because I don't like Irish schools and oh, something about worshipping the English Queen (I guess she exists, so worshipping her would be less silly than God, but silly none the less). I posted this is A&A as opposed to AH for a reason :rolleyes:

Icepick · 01-02-2016 1:50pm

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I stopped responding in here yesterday due to far too many idiotic comments from people who hardly, if ever post in here, having a drive by.

Turn the other cheek and don't judge others weren't included in their christian education clearly.

iguana · 01-02-2016 2:03pm

Look Kiwi, if you are unhappy about your family being routinely discriminated against you should just go away or find a therapist or preferably both. Screw the human rights of you and your child you should have known that your human rights would be infringed on a near daily basis if you moved to this country, according to so many people from this country who themselves have no idea what your child's school experience is like, yet expected you to magically know it from halfway around the world.

It's a mind boggling thread full of some of the worst hypocrisy and nonsensical double-speak I've seen on boards. I'm sorry, and frankly deeply ashamed, that you are being subjected to it.

Kiwi in IE · 01-02-2016 2:08pm

Icepick wrote: »

Turn the other cheek and don't judge others weren't included in their christian education clearly.

These 'Christian morals' must be why there is so much Christain opposition and busybodying toward issues that don't concern them, past and present (divorce, contraception, marriage equality, abortion, euthanasia etc, etc). I think they failed to include that in very many Christian educations.

I don't want to stay

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