I don't want to stay

Kiwi in IE · 28-01-2016 11:24pm #1

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

I don't want my child constantly surrounded by religion and religious views on everyday issues. There is just no option in education and the general attitude seems to be that non religious people should just shut up and get on with it. I realise that I may sound pathetic, but I feel completely marginalised, like I have no right to decide what is best for my child in what is a private, family matter to be decided by parents.

I don't want to be constantly monitoring what he is being told in school for the next 11 years, because I know that they will be telling him all sorts of things that are inappropriate. I don't want to be constantly deciding whether or not he will be included in classes, activities and events with his friends because many of them are unsuitable. I don't want him being set apart constantly from everyone else in his class and learning therefore that people should be segregated according to religion. I don't want him being taught that the Catholic Churches view on issues such as abortion and relationships are reasonable positions to hold, because I think many of them are unethical, wrong, discriminatory and prejudice, but nor do I want to have to constantly paint the Catholic Church in a bad light. My ideal for bringing up my children was that when these issues arose, I would encourage them to think them through from an ethical perspective and come up with their own conclusions, but here I'm having to make sure I get in first constantly before the school does.

I don't want him being taught about totally insane concepts like transubstantiation, saints with 'stigmatas', relics, moving statues, holy healing tourism hotspots etc. To me this stuff belongs back with age of 'witch' trials.

It is a bigger issue than just the school system, it probably seems a bit ridiculous to say that we are going home because of that, I'm not going to go too much into the more personal side of it, but as a small example of what I'm up against, a while ago I put up a post about secular parenting on Facebook and got a response from a great aunt of Little Kiwis 'I hope not Kiwi in IE, I was brought up with 'right thinking' and I hope you will do the same for Little Kiwi'. I'm not challenged or contradicted but I feel a general disapproval of the fact I'm not allowing Little Kiwi to be brought up Catholic. I know that many of you guys have probably also gone totally against your family's beliefs and norms and I don't want to minimise that in any way, but I think it's maybe easier to do when they are your family!

All other things weigh up pretty equal, the cost of living is worse back home but the weather is better. I don't dislike Ireland generally, just this side of it, but I know how different things would be if Little Kiwi were being brought up in New Zealand and all of this would be removed from our lives instantly if we moved back. Maybe I am just looking for an easy life when life isn't meant to be easy. Is it easier to stick when it's what you've grown up with do you think? It bothers me far more than OH, although he doesn't like the religious bollocks either. Any tips for coping long term before I throw in the towel?

I apologise if this sounds like it should be in the personal problem forum.

pH · 28-01-2016 11:36pm

As an atheist who was never baptised and went through the Irish school system years ago in much more unenlightened times, I think maybe you're making a little too much out of this - sure around first communion etc there's a little awkwardness, but most of the nonsense just washes off - I was aware my parents didn't believe and I was being taught stuff which wasn't true, but I had to endure - made me the person I am today!

Secondary school is far too much about teenage angst/rebellion/young love and the leaving cert for any child between 12 and 17 to think about religion

gctest50 · 28-01-2016 11:44pm

Little Kiwi will probably be subject to much more of the crazy - the loopy ones probably have decided in their own heads that there are bonus points for converting people from mysterious far away lands

Even though there are plenty of fairly normal religious ones that know when to lay off, the loopy ones seem to be obsessed with the " must convert, must convert, must convert " - they'd put ISIS to shame

The_Pretender · 28-01-2016 11:45pm

In the last ten years alone things have come along so far with regards separate classes while relgion is bring taught etc. as said previously it's only a little awkward really around communion and confirmation. Are you in Dublin? If you are then it shouldn't really be much of a big deal, though if you're out in a rural area then I can see how it could be difficult.

28-01-2016 11:47pm

If that's how you feel go for it. Do you want people to tell you that you're wrong to feel a certain way so you can complain about people telling you "how to feel"?

Kiwi in IE · 28-01-2016 11:49pm

pH wrote: »

As an atheist who was never baptised and went through the Irish school system years ago in much more unenlightened times, I think maybe you're making a little too much out of this - sure around first communion etc there's a little awkwardness, but most of the nonsense just washes off - I was aware my parents didn't believe and I was being taught stuff which wasn't true, but I had to endure - made me the person I am today!

Secondary school is far too much about teenage angst/rebellion/young love and the leaving cert for any child between 12 and 17 to think about religion

Did your parents have religious family/extended family? If so do you know how it was for them? You had atheist parents, I am the atheist parent! Half a world away from my atheist parents, who if they were here, would at least provide balance to the extended family belief systems. Although I do appreciate what you are saying about how it was for you, if it's not going to be all that difficult for Little Kiwi, then maybe I just need to find it within myself to grin and bear it.

endacl · 28-01-2016 11:50pm

How will you handle things when everybody expects LK to think of nothing but the Mighty All Blacks? What happens if he turns out to be arugbyist? How do you and your OH feel about the All Blacks?

Pluses and minuses everywhere.

magicbastarder · 28-01-2016 11:51pm

ah sure the rate at which this country has changed over the last 25 years, it'll be mandatory abortion soon, and catholics will have to wear ash on their foreheads permanently as a way of identifying themselves.

gctest50 · 28-01-2016 11:53pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

.................. and catholics will have to wear ash on their foreheads permanently as a way of identifying themselves.

Outstanding idea - should give them a little bell too

Eugene Norman · 28-01-2016 11:59pm

I went to catholic school 18 years ago and religion was just an ethics class. More anti-American liberation theology than anything else. My dad was a communist, he generally liked those magazines when I brought them home ( they were accurate too).

And given that Ireland has produced a generation of voters who overwhelmingly voted for gay marriage the catholic ethos is hardly that strong.

Clearly though the op's fantasy about Catholic education and his largely superior views on the country he might be better off leaving.

Fleawuss · 29-01-2016 12:02am

The personal cost of our not outgrowing our childhood as a Republic. I'm truly saddened to see your pain at having to endure the death grip of Irish theocracy. Its a rep roof to all of us who have failed to replace the daft nonsense of religion in our schools and hospitals. And the sad truth is thee are many in this country who would still vote against any political party that took on religion. Maybe there are signs of change with that Gaelscoil that was on the news but until that is the situation in every school it's not good enough.

I'm sorry at your frustration and the upset to your family. All I can say over my years is that it is always those left outside who change things for the better and it ends up a better place for everyone. I still don't forgive you the Haka btw.

Fleawuss · 29-01-2016 12:02am

The personal cost of our not outgrowing our childhood as a Republic. I'm truly saddened to see your pain at having to endure the death grip of Irish theocracy. Its a reproof to all of us who have failed to replace the daft nonsense of religion in our schools and hospitals. And the sad truth is there are many in this country who would still vote against any political party that took on religion. Maybe there are signs of change with that Gaelscoil that was on the news but until that is the situation in every school it's not good enough.

I'm sorry at your frustration and the upset to your family. All I can say over my years is that it is always those left outside who change things for the better and it ends up a better place for everyone. I still don't forgive you the Haka btw.

Kiwi in IE · 29-01-2016 12:03am

The_Pretender wrote: »

In the last ten years alone things have come along so far with regards separate classes while relgion is bring taught etc. as said previously it's only a little awkward really around communion and confirmation. Are you in Dublin? If you are then it shouldn't really be much of a big deal, though if you're out in a rural area then I can see how it could be difficult.

No no no not Dublin! Small town Ireland at it's finest

And this is it! We have only lived here because this is where OH's family live, and if what I see/hear around here wasn't often reinforced by issues raised in the National news, I would absolutely have put it down to small town crazies. I know well enough that there are plenty of back arse of nowhere places in NZ that resemble something out of The Deliverence as well. I try not to judge the country on where I am living, and I do acknowledge completely that in Dublin the very vibe/atmosphere feels different. I would have been happier here if we had settled in Dublin, I have no doubt, but it's still an unknown so deciding to sell up and move there is risky, if we are going to do that we might as well just bite the bullet and go with the known quantity of back home.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-01-2016 12:06am

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I think many of them are unethical, wrong, discriminatory and prejudice, but nor do I want to have to constantly paint the Catholic Church in a bad light.

Speaking as an atheist brought up catholic - fire away, they deserve every bit of criticism they get and then some.
If the RCC hierarchy were directors of a company (rather than carrying out similar functions for a religious organisation) they'd mostly be in jail.
What they have done to the people of this country makes my blood boil when I think about it, yet even the likes of Tuam is a six-day wonder in the papers then forgotten about by the public and swept back under the carpet by the powers that be.
Unfortunately most politicians etc. are all part of the cult (or at least find it profitable to be seen as such).
What the catholic church has done, does now, and believes, is not normal and not just and should not be accepted or forgotten, and you'd be failing as a parent if you didn't ensure your children were aware of that, in the appropriate way and at the appropriate age. They need to know about this because it's part of our society still, whether your child(ren) can go to a non-RC school or not.

School principals are often depicted as very conservative as a group, some are, but just the other day it was reported that 85% want to have less class time spent on religion. Things are slowly changing, but as long as religion is a potential ground for sacking don't expect too many teachers or principals to be speaking out openly

As for grandparents or great-aunts etc well I wouldn't put much store in what they think, this is a very different country from the Ireland they grew up in and it's not ever going back.

Even if the only school options are RC, there is a marked difference in attitude and accommodations made for opting out of religion between different schools. Worth looking into assuming you have any sort of school choice at all.

Kiwi in IE · 29-01-2016 12:08am

endacl wrote: »

How will you handle things when everybody expects LK to think of nothing but the Mighty All Blacks? What happens if he turns out to be arugbyist? How do you and your OH feel about the All Blacks?

Pluses and minuses everywhere.

Ah we'll be fine. He's well indoctrinated with that

. Richie McCaw is his hero and he wants to be a professional rugby player. You've made me think of another positive of moving back now, he might actually develop the skills to fulfil his dreams back home because rugby practice won't be cancelled every week due to rain haha.

silverharp · 29-01-2016 12:14am

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

I don't want my child constantly surrounded by religion and religious views on everyday issues. There is just no option in education and the general attitude seems to be that non religious people should just shut up and get on with it. I realise that I may sound pathetic, but I feel completely marginalised, like I have no right to decide what is best for my child in what is a private, family matter to be decided by parents.

I don't want to be constantly monitoring what he is being told in school for the next 11 years, because I know that they will be telling him all sorts of things that are inappropriate. I don't want to be constantly deciding whether or not he will be included in classes, activities and events with his friends because many of them are unsuitable. I don't want him being set apart constantly from everyone else in his class and learning therefore that people should be segregated according to religion. I don't want him being taught that the Catholic Churches view on issues such as abortion and relationships are reasonable positions to hold, because I think many of them are unethical, wrong, discriminatory and prejudice, but nor do I want to have to constantly paint the Catholic Church in a bad light. My ideal for bringing up my children was that when these issues arose, I would encourage them to think them through from an ethical perspective and come up with their own conclusions, but here I'm having to make sure I get in first constantly before the school does.

I don't want him being taught about totally insane concepts like transubstantiation, saints with 'stigmatas', relics, moving statues, holy healing tourism hotspots etc. To me this stuff belongs back with age of 'witch' trials.

It is a bigger issue than just the school system, it probably seems a bit ridiculous to say that we are going home because of that, I'm not going to go too much into the more personal side of it, but as a small example of what I'm up against, a while ago I put up a post about secular parenting on Facebook and got a response from a great aunt of Little Kiwis 'I hope not Kiwi in IE, I was brought up with 'right thinking' and I hope you will do the same for Little Kiwi'. I'm not challenged or contradicted but I feel a general disapproval of the fact I'm not allowing Little Kiwi to be brought up Catholic. I know that many of you guys have probably also gone totally against your family's beliefs and norms and I don't want to minimise that in any way, but I think it's maybe easier to do when they are your family!

I wouldnt over think it. Kids will always take their parents view on any issue and based on what I see kids in primary schools these days are only getting a very watery version of catholicism. and with all the debunking american christian videos on the net, its right at the level of primary kids

so they can learn a bit of science and history along the way.

jigglypuffstuff · 29-01-2016 12:26am

Kiwi in IE

I do agree with you on several points, however Ireland is in the turn regarding religion, and I think as time passes the separation of church and state will continue. At some point I would hope that the school system and church will also be separated.

I was always of the belief that religion should be an option, but not the only option... I wouldnt use such language as insane concepts...this is truly what some people believe in..regardless of what others may think

In any event..perhaps you have your heart set on returning home..but might I suggest looking at the Educate together schools?? I think these might be more what you are seeking? Its what out lecturers believe is the future of Education here anyway

https://www.educatetogether.ie/about/what-is-educate-together

Best of luck if you decide to return home

jigglypuffstuff · 29-01-2016 12:26am

Kiwi in IE

I do agree with you on several points, however Ireland is in the turn regarding religion, and I think as time passes the separation of church and state will continue. At some point I would hope that the school system and church will also be separated.

I was always of the belief that religion should be an option, but not the only option... I wouldnt use such language as insane concepts...this is truly what some people believe in..regardless of what others may think

In any event..perhaps you have your heart set on returning home..but might I suggest looking at the Educate together schools?? I think these might be more what you are seeking? Its what out lecturers believe is the future of Education here anyway

https://www.educatetogether.ie/about/what-is-educate-together

Best of luck if you decide to return home

Bristolscale7 · 29-01-2016 12:34am

Moved here almost seven years ago. Partner is Irish. Had one condition: children had to accepted into an Educate Together or we stay put. Kids are in ET and are growing up with loads of cousins and relatives. Ireland certainly can be a much nicer place for a family than many parts of the u.s. Weather, well, it is grim.

The marriage vote was a huge deal. Keep that in mind. The priests' power is slowly being eroded.

Kiwi in IE · 29-01-2016 12:37am

pone2012 wrote: »

Kiwi in IE

I do agree with you on several points, however Ireland is in the turn regarding religion, and I think as time passes the separation of church and state will continue. At some point I would hope that the school system and church will also be separated.

I was always of the belief that religion should be an option, but not the only option... I wouldnt use such language as insane concepts...this is truly what some people believe in..regardless of what others may think

In any event..perhaps you have your heart set on returning home..but might I suggest looking at the Educate together schools?? I think these might be more what you are seeking? Its what out lecturers believe is the future of Education here anyway

https://www.educatetogether.ie/about/what-is-educate-together

Best of luck if you decide to return home

Closest ETs are about 30km away in either direction. I think my problem is that I can't stay living here (in small rural town) are obviously not as backward in urban areas. But I think if we are going to make a big move, I'd rather move to a known quantity at this stage.

I do acknowledge that things are changing and I have huge hopes for the generation who are now in their teens and early 20's. I truly believe they will be the generation that put religion in its rightful place (homes and churches). But I think that'll happen at some time between LK finishing with education and when OH and I reach retirement. The best we can hope for is a nursing home without a Catholic ethos, rather than a secular education for our kids.

inocybe · 29-01-2016 12:42am

I have a teenager, he went to a rural primary school and has religious grandparents. In primary it all went over his head, and we have so many funny memories - we used to laugh at the religion book and the silly stories, his head was full of transformers back then and Megatron was more real to him than Jesus. He didn't do confirmation, he did a project of his choice during that time - he chose 'mythical creatures' but it ended up with a presentation on the alien lizard men. His secondary is nominally catholic but they don't even have any religion classes. Don't worry too much about imagining conflicts, it's going to be a lot of fun too ðŸ˜‡

marienbad · 29-01-2016 12:43am

Are you being a bit too harsh on us maybe ? I grew up in the 50's and 60's and lost any belief in or respect for the Catholic Church by the time I was 13. The Ireland of today is just so different from then it may as well be on planet Zog.

And it is continuing to change at an astonishing rate , you are just witnessing the death throes of wounded animal , and like a wounded animal it lashes out at everyone and everything .

We just had the SSM referendum and already it is obvious the 8th Amendment is going to go in the next parliamentary cycle . Who would have believed that even 5 years ago.

As for my own kids ( and bearing in mind that my partner is catholic ) one is a cultural Catholic and three are profoundly atheist ( or is militant atheist the word the RCC commentariat seems to label them ?)

I never proselytised on behalf of my non- belief , but on the principle that atheism/agnosticism has its responsibilities also, I never denied it and when asked I gave and defended my opinion . The same is now happening with my grandkids and I can see the same outcome .

But I can understand if you don't want your kids in the frontline of these battles , I didn't have a choice growing up or when my kids were growing up so we had to fight the good fight .

On top of all that we would really miss your posts

Kiwi in IE · 29-01-2016 12:43am

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Moved here almost seven years ago. Partner is Irish. Had one condition: children had to accepted into an Educate Together or we stay put. Kids are in ET and are growing up with loads of cousins and relatives. Ireland certainly can be a much nicer place for a family than many parts of the u.s. Weather, well, it is grim.

The marriage vote was a huge deal. Keep that in mind. The priests' power is slowly being eroded.

I was not very clever and got caught up in the romanticism of moving to Europe and therefore failed to research properly prior to deciding. Assumed Ireland was Catholic in name only, something like how the UK is Anglican. Didn't find out that every school within a 30km radius was religious until I was looking for a school to enrol LK. I have learnt a lot from that lesson.

The marriage vote was definitely a huge deal and made me feel more hopeful and positive. I need something like that every 6 months

Kiwi in IE · 29-01-2016 12:54am

marienbad wrote: »

On top of all that we would really miss your posts

I'm talking about leaving Ireland, not Boards. I'll be here going 'Na Na Na Na Na' from NZ when during the lead up to repeal of 8th, Iona sue the state funded broadcaster and are given public funds because someone called them 'anti choice'.

And probably moaning about the things that drive me mad back home, like not being able to buy a decent house for under $600k while being paid the same amount of $ as we are currently in €.

marienbad · 29-01-2016 1:06am

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I'm talking about leaving Ireland, not Boards. I'll be here going 'Na Na Na Na Na' from NZ when during the lead up to repeal of 8th, Iona sue the state funded broadcaster and are given public funds because someone called them 'anti choice'.

And probably moaning about the things that drive me mad back home, like not being able to buy a decent house for under $600k while being paid the same amount of $ as we are currently in €.

You can keep an eye on us through your ''five eyes programme''

. which I must say when I found out about it ,it really raised the hackles on my neck - typical anglo saxon WASP empire bull**** was my immediate gut reaction . My point is we all have our secrets and foibles .

Ireland , even small town Ireland is not the Catholic Church

Kiwi in IE · 29-01-2016 1:16am

marienbad wrote: »

Ireland , even small town Ireland is not the Catholic Church

Very true, but they seem to have a lot of representatives and spokespeople in this area :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato · 29-01-2016 2:01am

pone2012 wrote: »

I wouldnt use such language as insane concepts...this is truly what some people believe in..regardless of what others may think

The fact that some people believe in them should not in any way be regarded as an endorsement of the sanity of the beliefs concerned.

smacl · 29-01-2016 9:53am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If the RCC hierarchy were directors of a company (rather than carrying out similar functions for a religious organisation) they'd mostly be in jail.

Unless of course that company was a big semi-state or even a bank. We seem to have a knack in Ireland for punishing the small crimes and the little man while turning the real crooks into untouchable celebrities. The same applies to the RCC...

smacl · 29-01-2016 10:09am

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

Very sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you. Out of interest, what's little Kiwi's take on the situation? My feeling is that small town rural Ireland remains far more entrenched in its Catholicism than the large urban areas and will probably remain so for another generation, though can vary hugely from one place to the next. We're lucky enough to have got our kids into an educate together school in Dublin, and given that they're both unchristened 3rd generation atheists, I doubt we would have survived a staunchly Catholic rural school either. Possibly would have given NZ a shot if placed in such a situation.

Shermanator · 29-01-2016 10:59am

I would have put religion way down the list of reasons not to live in Ireland.

Top of my list would be the weather - specifically the Rain.
Political corruption, poor judicial system, unfair taxes, Water charges, cronyism etc etc etc

However, I would have weighed all that against the positives such as the Irish people, pace of life, culture, general freedoms, non nanny state etc etc

Shermanator · 29-01-2016 11:00am

I would have put religion way down the list of reasons not to live in Ireland.

Top of my list would be the weather - specifically the Rain.
Political corruption, poor judicial system, unfair taxes, Water charges, cronyism etc etc etc

However, I would have weighed all that against the positives such as the Irish people, pace of life, culture, general freedoms, non nanny state etc etc

Gbear · 29-01-2016 5:08pm

I think the Irish seem a lot more catholic than they really are.

The brits scarcely even make the effort. The Irish are still in the phase of going through the motions.

Even 10 years ago when I was still in secondary school, almost nobody took religion seriously, even if they did actually more or less qualify as catholics.
Only a few really went for it, and people tended to see them as a bit weird.

I think you need to trust yourself and your kids to not get taken in by the waffle. It'll be like water off a duck's back in the end.
From a very early age I was fully aware what a load of bollocks religion was.
None of this wishy-washy "let kids grow up what they want to believe" sort of stuff from my dad.
If he wouldn't let me believe that gravity is powered by chocolate or that electricity is carried around by magic pixies, than ideas of equal or greater levels of wrongness, such as religious dogma weren't going to get any special treatment just because some fuzzy wuzzy kinds of people are too soft to really take a stance on their beliefs because they'll be called "intolerant" or whatever bollocks they parrot these days.

I don't think that's your biggest problem.
I for one can't imagine living in the state of permanent social and cultural isolation of the Irish countryside. I'd say if you sort that out (your OH's family can sod off :P) then you'll be much happier.

XR3i · 29-01-2016 5:10pm

follow your heart Kiwi

hmmm · 29-01-2016 5:13pm

Kids see through this stuff very early, there's a big difference between being "taught" and "learning". Most of the religion teachers really don't care, they are only doing it for a job. I'd prefer our kids not have to waste time sitting through these classes, but they'll be fine - and I remember it was always nice to get a break at school from the tough subjects.

It's unfortunately a typical Irish reaction to look for a quiet life when faced with rabid fundamentalists - it's why schools teach Irish and religion, and most people couldn't really care about either topic. But if it ever got to a stage where we thought kids were really being affected, there would be an outcry.

I'd actually be much more worried about kids if they grew up in a culture with an evangelical ethos - now that's properly dangerous. Talking about "trans-substantiation" is guaranteed to do more to turn kids off religion than anything else.

smacl · 29-01-2016 5:31pm

hmmm wrote: »

Kids see through this stuff very early, there's a big difference between being "taught" and "learning".

True, but would you want to send your children to a school where they taught their pupils that the world was flat and this fact was not open to debate? Having to tell your children that their teachers are spouting lies is not really what you want out of an education, particularly at primary level.

inocybe · 29-01-2016 8:04pm

smacl wrote: »

True, but would you want to send your children to a school where they taught their pupils that the world was flat and this fact was not open to debate? Having to tell your children that their teachers are spouting lies is not really what you want out of an education, particularly at primary level.

It's not what you want from education, but neither do you necessarily have to talk about lies. I always told my son that some people believe, some don't, and no-one can be sure. He was about 8 when he stopped believing in vampires, gods and the tooth fairy. Santa lasted the longest.

smacl · 30-01-2016 11:01am

inocybe wrote: »

It's not what you want from education, but neither do you necessarily have to talk about lies. I always told my son that some people believe, some don't, and no-one can be sure.

What you have there in essence is closer to the line taken by Educate Together, and a long way from the ethos of many if not most Catholic schools, where dogma is still the order of the day. This dogma in my opinion goes on to become the foundation for an insular and xenophobic mindset for many. I rather doubt that the OP would be decided on quitting the country if religion was all just a bit of a laugh that some here seem to suggest.

Civil Joe · 30-01-2016 11:06am

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

I don't want my child constantly surrounded by religion and religious views on everyday issues. There is just no option in education and the general attitude seems to be that non religious people should just shut up and get on with it. I realise that I may sound pathetic, but I feel completely marginalised, like I have no right to decide what is best for my child in what is a private, family matter to be decided by parents.

I don't want to be constantly monitoring what he is being told in school for the next 11 years, because I know that they will be telling him all sorts of things that are inappropriate. I don't want to be constantly deciding whether or not he will be included in classes, activities and events with his friends because many of them are unsuitable. I don't want him being set apart constantly from everyone else in his class and learning therefore that people should be segregated according to religion. I don't want him being taught that the Catholic Churches view on issues such as abortion and relationships are reasonable positions to hold, because I think many of them are unethical, wrong, discriminatory and prejudice, but nor do I want to have to constantly paint the Catholic Church in a bad light. My ideal for bringing up my children was that when these issues arose, I would encourage them to think them through from an ethical perspective and come up with their own conclusions, but here I'm having to make sure I get in first constantly before the school does.

I don't want him being taught about totally insane concepts like transubstantiation, saints with 'stigmatas', relics, moving statues, holy healing tourism hotspots etc. To me this stuff belongs back with age of 'witch' trials.

It is a bigger issue than just the school system, it probably seems a bit ridiculous to say that we are going home because of that, I'm not going to go too much into the more personal side of it, but as a small example of what I'm up against, a while ago I put up a post about secular parenting on Facebook and got a response from a great aunt of Little Kiwis 'I hope not Kiwi in IE, I was brought up with 'right thinking' and I hope you will do the same for Little Kiwi'. I'm not challenged or contradicted but I feel a general disapproval of the fact I'm not allowing Little Kiwi to be brought up Catholic. I know that many of you guys have probably also gone totally against your family's beliefs and norms and I don't want to minimise that in any way, but I think it's maybe easier to do when they are your family!

All other things weigh up pretty equal, the cost of living is worse back home but the weather is better. I don't dislike Ireland generally, just this side of it, but I know how different things would be if Little Kiwi were being brought up in New Zealand and all of this would be removed from our lives instantly if we moved back. Maybe I am just looking for an easy life when life isn't meant to be easy. Is it easier to stick when it's what you've grown up with do you think? It bothers me far more than OH, although he doesn't like the religious bollocks either. Any tips for coping long term before I throw in the towel?

I apologise if this sounds like it should be in the personal problem forum.

Stop being so precious. Failing that don't let the door hit your arse on the way out....

robindch · 30-01-2016 11:27am

Civil Joe wrote: »

Stop being so precious. Failing that don't let the door hit your arse on the way out....

Joe - your next post will need to live up to your login or a moderator's boot will be intersecting your own bum.

Shrap · 30-01-2016 11:30am

pH wrote: »

most of the nonsense just washes off - I was aware my parents didn't believe and I was being taught stuff which wasn't true, but I had to endure - made me the person I am today!

This. This was my experience also.......until I had kids of my own in a very rural area with only RCC schools within an hour (apart from the Steiner school). I think though that my growing up here as an atheist made it easier for me to see how little the religiosity rubs off.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

if it's not going to be all that difficult for Little Kiwi, then maybe I just need to find it within myself to grin and bear it.

You have hit the nail on the head here Kiwi. Sadly, it does come down to how much you as a parent are prepared to suck up. Little Kiwi will most likely grow up atheist, questioning and, if not inured, at least with enough anger at the enforced religiosity (among many other Irish shortcomings, such as cronyism) to last a lifetime. I could understand that you may not want this for your child. You can see over your years up here that it's a pretty marginalised position, but as someone else mentioned, it is also the front line of change in our country.

Recently, I have had reason to search around for a secondary education that may be better for my youngest than mainstream school. It has worked out that a taylored curriculum and a whole school approach to his learning/social issues will be preferable and the (nominally) Catholic school he's in is actually second to none in my area. RE is not on any sort of pedestal, the kids are allowed to dye their hair and wear piercings if they want to, and the communication standard from school staff is open and flexible.

I looked at the Steiner secondary school as an option though, and I can safely tell you that the bolloxology on their website was enough to form a large and lasting sinking feeling in my heart and stomach. I did not know whether I could cope with him being taught by a maths teacher who is into "sacred geometry". I did not think I could contain myself from throwing a huge wobbly if he was taught there were 12 senses instead of just the 5 that we can prove......even for my child, who struggles so much in mainstream school. Anti-vaxer parents and homeopathic nonsense are the order of the day in that place. So I think my feelings on exposing my kid to this philosophy are akin to your horror at exposing your's to the all pervasive Irish RCC education. I for one, could totally understand that "sucking it up" could prove too much for you

, but I would do it if it was the best option for my son. With huge difficulty.

iguana · 30-01-2016 11:36am

How does little Kiwi feel about school? Does he sit out of religion class now and if so is he the only child who does and how does he feel about it? When I was in primary in the 80s there were 3 children from Jehovah's Witness families who sat out of religious lessons and any other lesson that had religious themes, like a story in the English book about the crucifixion. In all honesty most of the class were fairly envious of them as they would go sit together and draw pictures or read their own books for pleasure while we had to do stupid classwork. They were clearly having a lot more fun than we were. I don't think it impacted on their ability to make friends with the rest of the class or their popularity, but they might tell you otherwise for all I know. It possibly helped that they were a trio, so weren't left out alone. If your son is the only one not taking the religious lessons it would be a lot harder.

Gbear · 30-01-2016 11:38am

There's a lot to be said for challenging your kids with access to bad information and allowing them to develop a healthy mistrust for authority and their peers.

You don't learn critical thinking by being surrounded with a bunch of people who are right and agree with you.

So long as you're there for them to fall back to they'll be ok.

iguana · 30-01-2016 11:44am

Shrap wrote: »

I did not think I could contain myself from throwing a huge wobbly if he was taught there were 12 senses instead of just the 5 that we can prove......even for my child, who struggles so much in mainstream school.

Off topic but I thought that the idea that we only have 5 senses is outdated and we're now believed to have 20-21. Things like a sense of balance, acceleration and temperature recognition are all considered senses, afaik. (At least that's what I saw on an episode of QI a few years back.:))

smacl · 30-01-2016 12:57pm

Gbear wrote: »

There's a lot to be said for challenging your kids with access to bad information and allowing them to develop a healthy mistrust for authority and their peers.

You don't learn critical thinking by being surrounded with a bunch of people who are right and agree with you.

So long as you're there for them to fall back to they'll be ok.

I take your point, but think it is flawed insofar that by extension, a staunchly Catholic education would lead to higher degrees of critical thinking than a more open multi-denominational education. I'd suggest the opposite is in fact true, and that critical thinking is nourished by exposure to a wide variety of belief systems, all of which are open to scrutiny.

Shrap · 30-01-2016 1:29pm

iguana wrote: »

Off topic but I thought that the idea that we only have 5 senses is outdated and we're now believed to have 20-21. Things like a sense of balance, acceleration and temperature recognition are all considered senses, afaik. (At least that's what I saw on an episode of QI a few years back.:))

Fair comment! My bias against woo-mongering may have resulted in throwing out baby with bath water, I fully admit that

Tell me how · 30-01-2016 1:37pm

Kiwi in IE wrote:

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

Kiwi in IE wrote:

I don't want my child constantly surrounded by religion and religious views on everyday issues. There is just no option in education and the general attitude seems to be that non religious people should just shut up and get on with it. I realise that I may sound pathetic, but I feel completely marginalised, like I have no right to decide what is best for my child in what is a private, family matter to be decided by parents.

Kiwi in IE wrote:

I don't want to be constantly monitoring what he is being told in school for the next 11 years, because I know that they will be telling him all sorts of things that are inappropriate. I don't want to be constantly deciding whether or not he will be included in classes, activities and events with his friends because many of them are unsuitable. I don't want him being set apart constantly from everyone else in his class and learning therefore that people should be segregated according to religion. I don't want him being taught that the Catholic Churches view on issues such as abortion and relationships are reasonable positions to hold, because I think many of them are unethical, wrong, discriminatory and prejudice, but nor do I want to have to constantly paint the Catholic Church in a bad light. My ideal for bringing up my children was that when these issues arose, I would encourage them to think them through from an ethical perspective and come up with their own conclusions, but here I'm having to make sure I get in first constantly before the school does.

Kiwi in IE wrote:

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

Kiwi in IE wrote:

I don't want my child constantly surrounded by religion and religious views on everyday issues. There is just no option in education and the general attitude seems to be that non religious people should just shut up and get on with it. I realise that I may sound pathetic, but I feel completely marginalised, like I have no right to decide what is best for my child in what is a private, family matter to be decided by parents.

Kiwi in IE wrote:

I don't want to be constantly monitoring what he is being told in school for the next 11 years, because I know that they will be telling him all sorts of things that are inappropriate. I don't want to be constantly deciding whether or not he will be included in classes, activities and events with his friends because many of them are unsuitable. I don't want him being set apart constantly from everyone else in his class and learning therefore that people should be segregated according to religion. I don't want him being taught that the Catholic Churches view on issues such as abortion and relationships are reasonable positions to hold, because I think many of them are unethical, wrong, discriminatory and prejudice, but nor do I want to have to constantly paint the Catholic Church in a bad light. My ideal for bringing up my children was that when these issues arose, I would encourage them to think them through from an ethical perspective and come up with their own conclusions, but here I'm having to make sure I get in first constantly before the school does.

Thanks for calling. Have a safe trip.

evolving_doors · 30-01-2016 1:41pm

Better have them see what religion is about now, than have them discover religion for themselves for the first time when they leave home.

PopePalpatine · 30-01-2016 1:53pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Thanks for calling. Have a safe trip.

Have you actually got something to contribute beyond passive-aggressive drive-by posts?

Tell me how · 30-01-2016 2:01pm

PopePalpatine wrote:

Have you actually got something to contribute beyond passive-aggressive drive-by posts?

I don't feel I was passive aggressive.

haveringchick · 30-01-2016 2:03pm

I don't know what you imagine is going on in the school Kiwi or what people have told you is going on but it's nothing like you describe
I think it's sad that you don't know the day to day details of your child's school life
Perhaps the Principal would allow you to participate in some way?
Do you volunteer for Sales of Work sports events and such like?
My daughter is doing the Leaving and apart from Communion and Confirmation (and as you know you don't have to participate ) there was very little about religion and absolutely none in Secondary
The amount of time your little one spends in school is minimal really and yet you imply that Catholicsm stalks the child in a threatening way at every opportunity ?
Do you have any examples of how your child is being bombarded as you describe by religion?

eviltwin · 30-01-2016 2:11pm

I think a lot depends on the parents Kiwi. I grew up in a religious home so what I learned in school was reinforced at home and society as a whole so I grew up with a lot of fear and guilt. My 18 yr old
went to a Catholic school but we regularly had conversations at home where we discussed various things she had heard and decided they were a load of rubbish. She's always been free to believe what she wants but she has no time for it.

I totally understand your feelings on it, you want the education system to reflect your parenting not clash with it, but you will be far more influential on him than the school will.

I don't want to stay

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