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3 best reasons for atheism?

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Comments

  • #102
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    looksee wrote: »
    Well there you are, you are entitled to believe anything you want, but just because you believe it does not make it true (does that ring any bells?). And it is certainly not true that because you think atheists 'have a belief that god does not exist' this is actually atheists' position.
    It's not just me ... Atheists themselves don't believe that God/gods exist.
    For example, Endacl doesn't believe in imposing his beliefs on others ... presumably, he is speaking about the specific beliefs he holds as an Atheist.

    looksee wrote: »
    Endacl made a slight error of phraseology which contradicted a previous statement, though the intention was clear.
    ... he did much more than that ... he 'let the cat out of the bag' ... and openly procaimed that, as an Atheist, he has beliefs ... that he will not impose on others.
    looksee wrote: »
    As you know perfectly well, atheists do not 'believe there is no god', they have no belief in any god, which is an entirely different thing and has been argued so many times that you cannot be unaware of it.
    Having no belief in any god ... presumes that gods exist ... but the person doesn't believe in any of them
    ... something like somebody having no belief in any politician.:)
    Having no belief in any god would be a belief of some kind of Theist ... possibly even an anti-theist!!!
    looksee wrote: »
    Further, and again this is a well rehearsed argument, while atheists would expect that everything can be explained by natural rather than supernatural causes, it doesn't mean that everything has been explained. There are things we admit we do not know, but we do not patch the gaps with supernatural sticky tape.
    It may be well rehearsed ... but the fundamental belief / position of an Atheist is that everything has a materialistic cause (known or unknown) ... otherwise they would be some kind of agnostic, at some level.


  • #103
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    eviltwin wrote: »
    1. I don't believe in any gods
    ... but God believes in you ... I guess His love for you is unrequited.
    eviltwin wrote: »
    2. I don't care about faith or the afterlife.
    ... not caring about faith or the afterlife doesn't make either invalid or non-existent.
    eviltwin wrote: »
    3. Religion is a force of oppression. I grew up in a religious home and since turning my back on it all the sense of freedom is fantastic.
    Me too!!!
    Like all Human social constructs, religion can be oppressive ... especially when not balanced by respect for alternative/dissenting beliefs.
    Oppression is not unique to religions ... secular atheism has also engaged in oppression as well ... Stalinst Russia and currently, North Korean Communism are good examples of non-religious oppression of dissent.


  • #104
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    J C wrote: »
    [...] secular atheism has also engaged in oppression as well ... Stalinst Russia and currently, North Korean Communism are good examples of non-religious oppression of dissent.
    Stalin's Russia and North Korea are excellent examples of totalitarian states - exactly the same kind of ideological purity, totalitarianism and simplistic hero-worship demanded by fundamentalist christianity, fundamentalist islam and the rest.

    "Secular" means "not involved with religion" so "secular atheism" is a contradiction in terms.

    I'm only pointing this out for the 9,000 time because we haven't see you around these parts for a while and some recent posters may be unfamiliar with your merry disregard for biological and historical facts as well as basic political and religious terminology :rolleyes:


  • #105
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    robindch wrote: »
    Stalin's Russia and North Korea are excellent examples of totalitarian states - exactly the same kind of ideological purity, totalitarianism and simplistic hero-worship demanded by fundamentalist christianity, fundamentalist islam and the rest.

    "Secular" means "not involved with religion" so "secular atheism" is a contradiction in terms.

    I'm only pointing this out for the 9,000 time because we haven't see you around these parts for a while and some recent posters may be unfamiliar with your merry disregard for biological and historical facts as well as basic political and religious terminology :rolleyes:
    My point is that all social constructs ... religious or secular or atheist can have both vices and virtues ... vices are not the monopoly of one and virtue the other.
    robindch wrote: »
    "Secular" means "not involved with religion" so "secular atheism" is a contradiction in terms.
    Yes, the benign form of Secularism is as you describe ... but one finds anti-religious sentiments, right up to active hostility and the suppression of religion in secularism's more extreme manifestations.
    Like I have said, it's Human Nature to view one's own beliefs to be correct and everybody else to be wrong ... otherwise, why would a person continue to hold their particular views.
    In some cases, this can lead to the vices of intolerance and hatred for those with whom people disagree.
    When you stand back and look at it, all that has happened in Ireland over the past 50 years is that one suite of (religious) 'politically correct' views have been replaced with another set of (secular) 'politically correct' views.
    The only difference is between how these politically correct views are enforced ... in the 1950's it was by social pressure from people and clergy ... and now, they are enforced by an activist media policy often to the point of propaganda ... backed up with the full force of law, in some cases.


  • #106
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    robindch wrote: »
    Stalin's Russia and North Korea are excellent examples of totalitarian states - exactly the same kind of ideological purity, totalitarianism and simplistic hero-worship demanded by fundamentalist christianity, fundamentalist islam and the rest.
    ... that's my point ... that neither Atheism nor Secularism nor Theism have monopolies on either vice or virtue.
    robindch wrote: »
    I'm only pointing this out for the 9,000 time because we haven't see you around these parts for a while and some recent posters may be unfamiliar with your merry disregard for biological and historical facts as well as basic political and religious terminology :rolleyes:
    We are debating the biological and historical facts elsewhere ... and I am questioning the basic political and religious assumptions used on this thread.


  • #107
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    J C wrote: »
    I
    For example, Endacl doesn't believe in imposing his beliefs on others ... presumably, he is speaking about the specific beliefs he holds as an Atheist.
    We all have beliefs. I might believe that x is the best football team, or y plays the best music. I don't try to impose my beliefs on others.


  • #108
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    recedite wrote: »
    We all have beliefs. I might believe that x is the best football team, or y plays the best music. I don't try to impose my beliefs on others.
    No disagreement with you on any of this.

    All socially calibrated people don't try to impose their beliefs on others ... and such attempts, by the socially inept, usually backfire anyway.

    However, I'll bet that you sometimes discuss who the best football team are or who you think plays the best music ... and why, with your friends in work or in the pub.

    During such discussions, I'm sure that you learn about the strengths and weaknesses of your beliefs ... and those of your friends ... with, hopefully, respect from all sides to all sides.


  • #109
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,782 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    J C wrote: »
    It's not just me ... Atheists themselves don't believe that God/gods exist.
    For example, Endacl doesn't believe in imposing his beliefs on others ... presumably, he is speaking about the specific beliefs he holds as an Atheist.


    ... he did much more than that ... he 'let the cat out of the bag' ... and openly procaimed that, as an Atheist, he has beliefs ... that he will not impose on others.

    Having no belief in any god ... presumes that gods exist ... but the person doesn't believe in any of them
    ... something like somebody having no belief in any politician.:)
    Having no belief in any god would be a belief of some kind of Theist ... possibly even an anti-theist!!!

    It may be well rehearsed ... but the fundamental belief / position of an Atheist is that everything has a materialistic cause (known or unknown) ... otherwise they would be some kind of agnostic, at some level.

    You are well aware of the arguments, and would make them yourself if the discussion were reversed. This kind of weasel wording and re-hashing of meanings (whether correct or incorrect) just adds a layer of pedantry and tedium to an otherwise reasonable discussion.


  • #110
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    looksee wrote: »
    You are well aware of the arguments, and would make them yourself if the discussion were reversed. This kind of weasel wording and re-hashing of meanings (whether correct or incorrect) just adds a layer of pedantry and tedium to an otherwise reasonable discussion.
    Where is the weasel wording in the obvious statement that by definition Atheists don't believe that God or gods exist ... the very word 'Atheist' is made up from the combination of 'A' and 'theist' i.e. the opposite of theist ... i.e. somebody who doesn't believe that God/gods exist ... i.e. the opposite of Theists, who believe that God/gods exist.

    If there is a level of pedantry, it is the argument from some Atheists that they do not 'believe there is no god', but rather, they have no belief in any god.


  • #111
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    J C wrote: »
    If there is a level of pedantry, it is the argument from some Atheists that they do not 'believe there is no god', but rather, they have no belief in any god.

    Wow, you really seem to struggle with what an atheist is,

    You just love trying to claim an atheist is like a person that follows a religion, its as silly as claiming that somebody that doesn't have an interest in any sport is actually a sports fan
    :rolleyes:


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  • #112
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    J C wrote: »
    If there is a level of pedantry, it is the argument from some Atheists that they do not 'believe there is no god', but rather, they have no belief in any god.
    On our side of the street, we believe that words can have meanings that we can agree on and ideas have contexts, meanings and implications that we can defend, reject or ignore and that each must be clear and consensual for the other to make sense. That's what we believe language is for.

    On the religious side, language is whatever people want it to mean and that's usually whatever best supports their preconceived notions, or supports what they think their preconceived notions are. Perhaps that's why you believe that the sight of people saying clearly what they mean is "pedantry" rather than what we might hope that it is - honesty and integrity.
    Lewis Carroll wrote:
    When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’ ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’


  • #113
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    J C wrote: »
    Having no belief in any god ... presumes that gods exist ... but the person doesn't believe in any of them
    ... something like somebody having no belief in any politician.:)
    Having no belief in any god would be a belief of some kind of Theist ... possibly even an anti-theist!!!

    Oh boy, you're back, and with the same scratch in the same record. Happy, happy, joy, joy.

    Basic definition of atheist: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

    What part of this presumes that gods exist? Answer: No part. None at all. Ever. Never presume anything. Wait for the evidence. Or just carry on in the knowledge that there isn't any evidence to date, and there is likely to be none forthcoming in the future.


  • #114
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    hi there

    im atheist and not afraid to say it.

    my problem is that people don't believe me or think im open to being lectured on their religion

    I try not to argue and try to calmly say these are my beliefs and I don't knock your beliefs

    they always end up looking for reasons why I believe what I believe or don't in this case

    im sick of it now.
    if you had to have 3 points only
    what clear points would you make

    You only have to ask "where is the evidence?"

    If the evidence is not convincing then you only need to say "I'm not convinced".

    My 3 points would be...

    There's no evidence.
    There's no proof.
    I'm not going to just believe something based on "faith".


  • #115
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,859 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Having no belief in any god ... presumes that gods exist ... but the person doesn't believe in any of them
    Having no belief in any Greek gods/unicorns/elves/pixies/Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles etc.... presumes that Greek gods/unicorns/elves/pixies/Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles etc. exist ... but the person doesn't believe in any of them

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #116
    Bristolscale7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    Reads like someone has read the wikipedia entry for the ontological argument.


  • #117
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »
    ^if you repeat that 3 times in front of a mirror does he disappear?

    Does who disappear? That guy who didn't exist already anyway?


  • #118
    Second Toughest in_the Freshers
    Site Banned Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Second Toughest in_the Freshers


    As I was going up the stair,
    I met a man who wasn't there.
    He wasn't there again today,
    I wish, I wish he'd go away...


  • #119
    Disgruntled Badger
    Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭Disgruntled Badger


    Did you ever stop to think that rather than atheists and people of faith, there are actually just people who try to impose their views on you...and people who don't. :-o


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