Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Sizzler · 29-03-2012 9:19am

My neighbour works in Fingal Co Co and says they are offering treble time and days in lieu for any staff who will work saturday!

Multuiply that by a factor of how many councils we have in the country and how much is that costing?

She also said the numbers "registering" is grossly exaggerated as they are seeing a *LOT* of registrations of people who are exempt!!!

Micky Dolenz · 29-03-2012 9:19am

black francis wrote: »

Come come Bill, no need to be so self depreciating.

We all heard you were great friends with CajunOnTour?

Mod.

Flaming stops here. If you have a problem with a post or poster report it.

Cantona's Collars · 29-03-2012 9:24am

Sizzler wrote: »

My neighbour works in Fingal Co Co and says they are offering treble time and days in lieu for any staff who will work saturday!

Multuiply that by a factor of how many councils we have in the country and how much is that costing?

She also said the numbers "registering" is grossly exaggerated as they are seeing a *LOT* of registrations of people who are exempt!!!

Sure won't the €100 charge cover the overtime bill.

Puts paid to the argument of Councils needing the money when they are able to piss it away paying unnecessary overtime,only in Ireland.

Sizzler · 29-03-2012 9:28am

zerks wrote: »

Sure won't the €100 charge cover the overtime bill.

Puts paid to the argument of Councils needing the money when they are able to piss it away paying unnecessary overtime,only in Ireland.

Oh and lets not forget the TWO Quangos that are being underwritten to "administer" the charge!

http://www.lgma.ie/

http://www.lgmsb.ie/

PMSL :rolleyes:

http://www.leovaradkar.ie/?cat=102

Ladjacket · 29-03-2012 9:37am

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-paid-gangster-50k-for-home-in-limerick-estate-3065024.html

Apologies if this is already been posted but the Dept of the Environment want us to pay a household charge when they spent the equivalent of 500 households on this?

Wouldn't you just love to be a fly on the wall in the Dail when they are discussing this stuff? I mean, who thought it would be a good idea to put 50k into the hands of these people?

Frank Black · 29-03-2012 9:44am

RTE reporting around 30% have paid by yesterday evening and still 3days to go!

It seems pragmatism had trumped attempts by the loony left to stir up anger and confusion.

DoesNotCompute · 29-03-2012 9:47am

Ladjacket wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-paid-gangster-50k-for-home-in-limerick-estate-3065024.html

Apologies if this is already been posted but the Dept of the Environment want us to pay a household charge when they spent the equivalent of 500 households on this?

Wouldn't you just love to be a fly on the wall in the Dail when they are discussing this stuff? I mean, who thought it would be a good idea to put 50k into the hands of these people?

The Council bought the house, probably wasn't discussed in the Dail, as it was a local govt decision.

psychward · 29-03-2012 9:49am

black francis wrote: »

RTE reporting around 30% have paid by yesterday evening and still 3days to go!

It seems pragmatism had trumped attempts by the loony left to stir up anger and confusion.

sure thats the same RTE which was reporting that our potato exports were booming and was going to make us all millionaires --- on the same day the IMF arrived, a fact which they completely and totally ignored

I think we need some real news from the BBC about this topic as I would never cite RTE as an independent impartial source for any Ireland related topic especially a topic close to government.

Ladjacket · 29-03-2012 9:50am

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

The Council bought the house, probably wasn't discussed in the Dail, as it was a local govt decision.

Still government money isn't it? The very councils that this household charge will be going to?

psychward · 29-03-2012 9:52am

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

The Council bought the house, probably wasn't discussed in the Dail, as it was a local govt decision.

Time to rush through legislation to confiscate that money and make violent scum pay back society for the cost of keeping them in prison etc and pay back their victims. Prison lodgings should be means tested in my view especially for repeat offenders.

Biggins · 29-03-2012 9:54am

Big AK1 wrote: »

...The world is watching Ireland, and between this household charge & and the upcoming referendum; we have a chance to show the world that the fightin' Irish are just that; we will not just lay down and accept that we as a nation are willing to pay off the gambling debts of the already uber-wealthy. We are ready to be grown up as a nation, and pay our way in the world, and work our way out of debt (our own, not corrupt bankers), getting rid of the Me Fein attitude of the past, and creating proper social changes, but done on our terms. And the only way the world will start to see this, is if we make a stand... and now is our time to do so!

AK

Great total post and cheers for signing up.
The Irish people generally over the last few years have been too complacent and have accepted too much, too easily.
Good to see more people, young and old taking more of a loud and visible stance!

Cantona's Collars · 29-03-2012 9:56am

black francis wrote: »

RTE reporting around 30% have paid by yesterday evening and still 3days to go!

It seems pragmatism had trumped attempts by the loony left to stir up anger and confusion.

RTE have a tendency to confuse Registered with Paid,wouldn't believe a word they say about the figures.

Bruthal · 29-03-2012 9:59am

dvpower wrote: »

The head of the LGMA this morning on Newstalk confirmed that people 'living over the shop' are liable for the charge.

What a surprise.

andrewdeerpark · 29-03-2012 9:59am

Is the whole protest against the household charge an attempt to give the government a black eye or does the “Looney left” have an issue with the principal of taxing property assets. If so then they need to revise their Karl Marx books fairly promptly.

Surely equitable taxation of property assets should be a pillar of left wing policies like in other countries? I just do not understand the left wing objection to the charge.

Where do they (Joe Higgins, Richard Boyd Barrett, Ming, Seamus Healy, Shinners) stand on the principal of taxing property on an equitable basis? Surely a property tax is better than more PAYE and also discourages asset hoarding that happened during the celtic tiger days

And yes I accept the 100euro is not equitable however we have been assured that it will be sorted by next year.

tin79 · 29-03-2012 10:02am

black francis wrote: »

RTE reporting around 30% have paid by yesterday evening and still 3days to go!

It seems pragmatism had trumped attempts by the loony left to stir up anger and confusion.

LOL, 95% of the time given to pay has passed and you are considering 30% total registration to be a success?

Great sucess that, Aim low must be your mantra. Personally i would consider that number fo be very low. You really are just starting to look like a troll now.

xflyer · 29-03-2012 10:10am

I've no interest in the loony left, Higgins and his cabal of Trotskyites can go to hell. I'm not paying because right now it's the best way of telling the government that I'm fed up with their handling of this situation. I also cannot stand the scaremongering tactics and straightforward lies they're telling to try and get people to register.

It's time these people realised who elected them and whose interests they should be taking care of and it's not the bankers or the German government, I'm talking about.

I suspect even the people who have registered and paid under duress will make sure these clowns pay for it in the next election. I suspect the Labour party will follow FF into history if they dont cop on soon!

Cantona's Collars · 29-03-2012 10:11am

tin79 wrote: »

LOL, 95% of the time given to pay has passed and you are considering 30% total registration to be a success?

Great sucess that, Aim low must be your mantra. Personally i would consider that number fo be very low. You really are just starting to look like a troll now.

I can't get the image of blackfrancis & dvpower high-fiving each other as the figures were being read out on RTE.

"30% YIPPEEE!! HIGH FIVE DUDE!!! This tax is a roaring success,break out the champers"

Biggins · 29-03-2012 10:11am

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

...however we have been assured that it will be sorted by next year.

Do you seriously believe most things our current lot has told you?

Good god - tell me your not that uninformed as to already how many things they have said they will do or even promised - and have done absolute nothing or even reversed!

Frank Black · 29-03-2012 10:14am

zerks wrote: »

I can't get the image of blackfrancis & dvpower high-fiving each other as the figures were being read out on RTE.

"30% YIPPEEE!! HIGH FIVE DUDE!!! This tax is a roaring success,break out the champers"

We eat a couple of babies first though.

psychward · 29-03-2012 10:18am

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Is the whole protest against the household charge an attempt to give the government a black eye or does the “Looney left” have an issue with the principal of taxing property assets. If so then they need to revise their Karl Marx books fairly promptly.

Surely equitable taxation of property assets should be a pillar of left wing policies like in other countries? I just do not understand the left wing objection to the charge.

Where do they (Joe Higgins, Richard Boyd Barrett, Ming, Seamus Healy, Shinners) stand on the principal of taxing property on an equitable basis? Surely a property tax is better than more PAYE and also discourages asset hoarding that happened during the celtic tiger days

And yes I accept the 100euro is not equitable however we have been assured that it will be sorted by next year.

As a non politicized citizen I don't give a fupp about ideologys left or right and
I resent the stirring up of hatred some people have for SF and childish namecalling such as ''loony left'' as an argument against the overwhelming number of people who have not paid who are the majority. People against this charge only need to have their opposition to the charge in common with one another. Apart from this opposition they can disagree about the color of the sky or time of day for all we care.

Then while bringing out your ''stick'' of namecalling you also try to bring out the carrot that this is about taxing ''wealth.'' How is taxing someones negative equity and millstone debts the same as taxing wealth ? (even ignoring the fact that they already paid big big taxes on this already).

andrewdeerpark · 29-03-2012 10:21am

All

I have no time for bankers either and you are right on the government in general. They have broken all their promises plus look today they quashed the planning probes: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ryan-accuses-arrogant-govt-over-planning-probes-545351.html

because their councillors would be implicated probably more than FF, as FG / Labour has a majority on most council’s in this period, however no one picks up on this event. They have sneaked this in under the household charge anger.

I think this 100euro household charge is a distraction that is wasting people’s anger in the wrong direction. Good tactics by a clever corrupt government though…..

andrewdeerpark · 29-03-2012 10:24am

psychward wrote: »

As a non politicized citizen I don't give a fupp about ideologys left or right and
I resent the stirring up of hatred some people have for SF and childish namecalling such as ''loony left'' as an argument against the overwhelming number of people who have not paid who are the majority. People against this charge only need to have their opposition to the charge in common with one another. Apart from this opposition they can disagree about the color of the sky or time of day for all we care.

Then while bringing out your ''stick'' of namecalling you also try to bring out the carrot that this is about taxing ''wealth.'' How is taxing someones negative equity and millstone debts the same as taxing wealth ? (even ignoring the fact that they already paid big big taxes on this already).

Do you agree or not with the PRINCIPLE of taxation on property assets?

Biggins · 29-03-2012 10:26am

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

...They have broken all their promises plus look today they quashed the planning probes: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ryan-accuses-arrogant-govt-over-planning-probes-545351.html because their councillors would be implicated probably more than FF, as FG / Labour has a majority on most council’s in this period, however no one picks up on this event. They have sneaked this in under the household charge anger.

I think this 100euro household charge is a distraction that is wasting people’s anger in the wrong direction. Good tactics by a clever corrupt government though…..

Picked up on it some time ago as did a few in the politics section I think.
The journal.ie also mentioned it a few times including this morning.

It does indeed seem FG and Labour by the quiet cancelling of further investigations, have their own crap to hide at local levels.
They don't wish to be exposed and/or further public anger at their activities at the moment or in the future!

phil1nj · 29-03-2012 10:28am

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Surely equitable taxation of property assets should be a pillar of left wing policies like in other countries? I just do not understand the left wing objection to the charge.

I think most people are mainly against the taxing of the family home (or primary residence). I still have yet to receive one decent explanation as to how a home can be defined as a taxable asset? It does not generate any income for the inhabitants and only becomes a taxable quantity when sold (CGT). To me, this is one of the main reasons why people are against this charge. People view it as paying the government for the privilige of living in their own homes.

An other poster made the point on this thread that they do not see why the family home should be exempt from a property tax. Fair enough but there are just as many valid arguments as to why it shouldn't be taxed either.

psychward · 29-03-2012 10:28am

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Do you agree or not with the PRINCIPLE of taxation on property assets?

I agree with a principled taxation system. And a principled government. We have neither and I don't think we ever had one.

andrewdeerpark · 29-03-2012 10:33am

As we all do.

Still not answering my question though?

Bruthal · 29-03-2012 10:34am

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

As we all do.

Still not answering my question though?

Not if its the family home.

joolsveer · 29-03-2012 10:35am

I received a Final Reminder for the Household Charge in the post this morning. I have a receipt in my email account showing I paid the charge on 9 January 2012. What should I do?

Micky Dolenz · 29-03-2012 10:37am

joolsveer wrote: »

I received a Final Reminder for the Household Charge in the post this morning. I have a receipt in my email account showing I paid the charge on 9 January 2012. What should I do?

Nothing. They probably have sent out those notices to everyone. they don't seem to be too organised.

Bruthal · 29-03-2012 10:37am

joolsveer wrote: »

I received a Final Reminder for the Household Charge in the post this morning. I have a receipt in my email account showing I paid the charge on 9 January 2012. What should I do?

Nothing, they dont know who they are sending them leaflets to. Everyone gets them regadless if exempt or paid or not paid.

Sizzler · 29-03-2012 10:38am

joolsveer wrote: »

I received a Final Reminder for the Household Charge in the post this morning. I have a receipt in my email account showing I paid the charge on 9 January 2012. What should I do?

PMSL!

The money you paid has gone towards a €250k random leaflet campaign to needlessly send "reminders" to everybody to bully you into paying.

Doesnt it give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside to know your money has been wasted

psychward · 29-03-2012 10:38am

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

As we all do.

Still not answering my question though?

Principle cannot exist alone outside of whats practical. Despots and ideologues made that mistake all throughout history. You have to take reality into account. You are asking me if I agree with the taxation of assets when the Household charge and most likely it's successors is a tax on liabilities as well as assets which also does not take ability to pay into account. If someone is worth more dead than alive how can one feel anything but shame at applying a tax on that person just to keep a roof over their head, punishing them for their years of hard work and thrift ?

Sizzler · 29-03-2012 10:41am

phil1nj wrote: »

I think most people are mainly against the taxing of the family home (or primary residence). I still have yet to receive one decent explanation as to how a home can be defined as a taxable asset? It does not generate any income for the inhabitants and only becomes a taxable quantity when sold (CGT). To me, this is one of the main reasons why people are against this charge. People view it as paying the government for the privilige of living in their own homes.

Add another point to that - Homeowners are being asked to fund publicly available services....are homeowners the ONLY people who use the local roads....parks...swimming pools ...libraries etc?

If they are then does that mean any tourist or someone renting is by default barred from using these services / amenities as they havent paid for them?

mickydoomsux · 29-03-2012 10:46am

joolsveer wrote: »

I received a Final Reminder for the Household Charge in the post this morning. I have a receipt in my email account showing I paid the charge on 9 January 2012. What should I do?

Just ignore it because you've already paid.

It's rather obvious that it's a scattergun leafleting what with it not having either your name or address on it :rolleyes:

phil1nj · 29-03-2012 11:05am

mickydoomsux wrote: »

It's rather obvious that it's a scattergun leafleting what with it not having either your name or address on it :rolleyes:

Big Phil is obviously a massive Red Dwarf fan (see video below between 1min 45s and 2min 30s):D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WgUktfdDy4

lugha · 29-03-2012 11:30am

phil1nj wrote: »

It does if it all comes out of the same pot ? Just like balancing a household budget you can either increase your income to fund your day-to-day bills (take in more taxes) or you can cut back on expenditure (junkets, expenses, iphones for LA workers etc). The household charge represents the first option but for some reason the expenditure part just doesn't seem to be under review.

The post I replied to advised people not to pay this charge “Unless you want the wastage to continue.......” The implication being that if we leave things as they are, the wastage won’t continue!!!!

The question of wastage is irrelevant to how the revenue is raised. Are you suggesting that you cannot ascertain what does or does not constitute wasteful spending or bad value for money, unless you know how the wasted money was raised?

Nonsense of course. You determine waste by looking at the destination of public monies, not the source. If there is an argument to reign in wasteful public spending then that argument is just as compelling even if we do not adopt the house hold charge. Red herring.

xflyer · 29-03-2012 11:31am

joolsveer wrote: »

I received a Final Reminder for the Household Charge in the post this morning. I have a receipt in my email account showing I paid the charge on 9 January 2012. What should I do?

The only people getting final reminders are those who registered. More fool you. They haven't a clue who owes what or where they live. That's why they want you to register.

Micky Dolenz · 29-03-2012 11:34am

Don't you know, we're talking about a revolution.

Grand day for it.

seamus · 29-03-2012 11:34am

xflyer wrote: »

The only people getting final reminders are those who registered.

Nonsense. More scaremongering.

Philm_12 · 29-03-2012 11:40am

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Do you agree or not with the PRINCIPLE of taxation on property assets?

Don't know about you but I am sick of hearing that we are one of the only EU states to have no property tax. I will consider that argument when our TOTAL tax burden (including indirect taxes) is quoted in comparison to other EU states.

Incidentally, we are probably the only EU state to utilise US road signs - not the EU "standard" road signs that one will encounter in every other member state to the best of my knowledge.
So if we can be different from the others on that major issue - why not be different on taxation?

lugha · 29-03-2012 11:44am

Philm_12 wrote: »

Don't know about you but I am sick of hearing that we are one of the only EU states to have no property tax. I will consider that argument when our TOTAL tax burden (including indirect taxes) is quoted in comparison to other EU states.

Because the argument being made by some of the "no" folk is that there is something fundamentally wrong with the notion of any tax on the home, not that our tax burden it too high.

mickydoomsux · 29-03-2012 11:45am

xflyer wrote: »

The only people getting final reminders are those who registered. More fool you. They haven't a clue who owes what or where they live. That's why they want you to register.

Wrong. More no-campaign misinformation.

Cantona's Collars · 29-03-2012 11:48am

xflyer wrote: »

The only people getting final reminders are those who registered. More fool you. They haven't a clue who owes what or where they live. That's why they want you to register.

I haven't or won't register but have gotten a flyer,they are being sent to everyone.Another grand waste of money.

Cantona's Collars · 29-03-2012 11:50am

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Wrong. More no-campaign misinformation.

No-just misinformation,put the tar & brush away now please.This whole tax debacle is riddled with misinformation,you can't blame folk for getting things wrong.

Frank Black · 29-03-2012 11:53am

Philm_12 wrote: »

So if we can be different from the others on that major issue - why not be different on taxation?

Because we don't have enough money to pay for our own stuff.

phil1nj · 29-03-2012 11:59am

lugha wrote: »

The post I replied to advised people not to pay this charge “Unless you want the wastage to continue.......” The implication being that if we leave things as they are, the wastage won’t continue!!!!.

Well if the local authorites are as broke as Phil Hogan claims, then it makes the justification of junkets and expenses all the more difficult and downright hypocritical as well. With no money coming to the LA then budgets/services have to be slashed. That means finding cuts somewhere (unpalatable but tehy are happening anyway). Giving them a lifeline (in the form of revenues from the household charge/property tax) does not promote this kind of action. That was my point.

lugha wrote: »

The question of wastage is irrelevant to how the revenue is raised. Are you suggesting that you cannot ascertain what does or does not constitute wasteful spending or bad value for money, unless you know how the wasted money was raised?

Well seeing as it's mainly taxpayers money we are talking about, I myself think it's very relevant. Why should a local authority or the government think it's ok to waste money purely because they can always come back for more when the well runs dry (justifiying spends on iphones because the money was there etc)? That kind of attitude was prevalent for far too long in this country, just look at the money that was wasted over the years by successive governments (e voting machines, the childrens hospital, the LUAS cost overurns etc). You think that kind of waste would have been tolerated in the private sector with investors looking on and demanding value for money?

lugha wrote: »

Nonsense of course. You determine waste by looking at the destination of public monies, not the source. If there is an argument to reign in wasteful public spending then that argument is just as compelling even if we do not adopt the house hold charge. Red herring.

Red herring? I don't think so, it's more of a chicken and egg situation (maybe). You seem to classify waste as being how money is spent, fair enough,but as a taxpayer I view waste as also encompassing the reckless collection of yet more taxes to keep a bloated system on the rails. Get the waste/duplication/inefficiencies under control THEN come back looking for more money if that isn't sufficient. It is wasteful to hit taxpayers for more money when that additional money will just be placed in to a huge black hole to keep the system running as it is. To use the bucket analogy that's been trotted out, fix the leaks first, then fill it. Just my opinion though.

dvpower · 29-03-2012 12:00pm

xflyer wrote: »

The only people getting final reminders are those who registered.

@xflyer - Why did you post this blatant untruth?

phil1nj · 29-03-2012 12:02pm

lugha wrote: »

Because the argument being made by some of the "no" folk is that there is something fundamentally wrong with the notion of any tax on the home, not that our tax burden it too high.

Just out of interest (and apologies if you've answered this already) but do you agree with a tax on the family home (not all property) but specifically the family home? If you do, can you tell us why?

xflyer · 29-03-2012 12:10pm

dvpower wrote: »

@xflyer - Why did you post this blatant untruth?

Why haven't I got one then? Are they sent to individuals or just the householder.

Seriously though you're not one to talk about posting blatant untruths! Every time one of the you're government lackeys open their mouth all that comes out is blatant lies.

dvpower · 29-03-2012 12:14pm

xflyer wrote: »

Why haven't I got one then? Are they sent to individuals or just the householder.

So you made an assumption based on little information and you posted it as fact.

xflyer wrote: »

Seriously though you're not one to talk about posting blatant untruths! Every time one of the your government lackeys open their mouth all that comes out is blatant lies.

Specifically what blatent lie are you accusing me of?

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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