M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

Brilliant, comparing a 60km road scheme to a couple of schools

All I can say is we will see!

sonnyblack wrote: »

It is the same story with any roads PPP. The detailed design has been well advanced by the preferred bidder's Design Team to enable an accurate bid price to be calculated. When financial close happens for the Gort Tuam project the construction will start the next day. Varadkar will be down rapidly for the sod turning and photo opportunity. The bidders design engineers will probably finalise some outstanding info for the structures like the rebar while the cuttings are being undertaken. It's the 'Just in Time' form of Design & Build Project Management. Don't try to say that the contract will be signed this year but that construction won't start until next year because you are only making a total fool of yourself.

Your half right, the Contractor (joint venture) would have appointed a Consultancy to prepare a preliminary design so as to cost the tender. Once the Contract is signed, they will plough on with the detailed design which will need to be submitted under a certification process requiring approval from the NRA's Representative before they can physically build anything.

They will start with the 'Site Clearance' package so as to fence off the lands made available for the construction, but the Contractor's designer could easily be working on the detailed design for up to 18 months into the Contract between preparing designs for fencing, environmental barriers, safety barriers, drainage, earthworks, pavement, public lighting, landscaping, traffic signs & road markings, overbridges, underbridges, river diversions, etc.

The key thing is that various design packages are approved in time to meet the Contractor's programme of works.

I think it would be much more sensible if they just built Gort to Galway phase & built a good bypass for Claregalway on Galway/Tuam road.

Why borrow more money to fund infrastructure that will not be/is not really economically beneficial in the longer term. More money for our kids to repay in the future...

Either way I hope they get on with it:eek::eek:. I'm sick of hearing that it is starting next week/next month/next year!!!!

Naux wrote: »

I think it would be much more sensible if they just built Gort to Galway phase & built a good bypass for Claregalway on Galway/Tuam road.

The current N17 isn't good enough to do this.

Naux wrote: »

Why borrow more money to fund infrastructure that will not be/is not really economically beneficial in the longer term. More money for our kids to repay in the future...

The Tuam-Claregalway section of the N17 is as busy (if not busier) than the M6 between Galway and Ballinasloe and the economic benefit is unquestionable.

Naux wrote: »

I think it would be much more sensible if they just built Gort to Galway phase & built a good bypass for Claregalway on Galway/Tuam road.

Why borrow more money to fund infrastructure that will not be/is not really economically beneficial in the longer term. More money for our kids to repay in the future...

I'm sorry; all I heard was "I use the Gort to Galway stretch so that's all that should be done".

The Galway to Tuam stretch is a poor road considering the volumes on it; of course it should be completed as planned.

Padkir wrote: »

I'm sorry; all I heard was "I use the Gort to Galway stretch so that's all that should be done".

The Galway to Tuam stretch is a poor road considering the volumes on it; of course it should be completed as planned.

Funnily enough I use the N17 and pass through Claregalway every day!!! I rarely use the Gort to Galway road.

I just think we should not be borrowing more money to pay for this. Just my opinion:D

antoobrien wrote: »

The current N17 isn't good enough to do this..

Fair enough,If you say so, I'm no expert.

antoobrien wrote: »

The Tuam-Claregalway section of the N17 is as busy (if not busier) than the M6 between Galway and Ballinasloe and the economic benefit is unquestionable.

The M6 leads to Dublin........................the economic heart of the whole country.

The M17 will lead to Tuam.................

I would certainly question the economic benefit versus the cost(include the cost of borrowing)of that.

antoobrien wrote: »

And yet is quieter than the (2 lane) road to Tuam, Sligo & Derry. Go figure.



Question all you want but if it wasn't already clear from living in Galway, it's very clear from the traffic numbers that Galway needs the M17 more than it needs either the M6 or M18.

Its hard to predict how many from Tuam (and further on) will use the M17-M6 as opposed to going through Claregalway onto the N6. Current traffic numbers cant show either way.

I mean if some know that Claregalway traffic will be lighter, wont they be inclined to try this route (at least sometimes) to expereiment as opposed to the longer route.

antoobrien wrote: »

And yet is quieter than the (2 lane) road to Tuam, Sligo & Derry. Go figure.



Question all you want but if it wasn't already clear from living in Galway, it's very clear from the traffic numbers that Galway needs the M17 more than it needs either the M6 or M18.

Quoting the M6 traffic numbers(where people can and do use other routes, old Dublin road etc) is not comparing like with like. We are all stuck unfortunately with the Claregalway bottleneck(and I know all the rat runs:D). I would also suggest that M17 would have high levels of Commuter traffic versus commercial traffic. M6 to Dublin would have the highest levels of economically important commercial traffic.

Galway needs the M17 more than the M6 .........You are having a laugh surely.

Don't get me wrong the M17/18 is one of those things that would be nice to have if the country could afford it. It certainly would make my life easier but as I said before I'd rather my kids would not have to pay 52% tax to fund the likes of this.

Naux wrote: »

Quoting the M6 traffic numbers(where people can and do use other routes, old Dublin road etc) is not comparing like with like. We are all stuck unfortunately with the Claregalway bottleneck(and I know all the rat runs:D). I would also suggest that M17 would have high levels of Commuter traffic versus commercial traffic. M6 to Dublin would have the highest levels of economically important commercial traffic.

Galway needs the M17 more than the M6 .........You are having a laugh surely.

Not in the slightest. Start going into the breakdowns of the data, you'd expect there to be significantly more commercial traffic on the M6 - there isn't.

The M6 might be the more important of the three routes from a national level, but but's not the most important to Galway or the west in general.

antoobrien wrote: »

Not in the slightest. Start going into the breakdowns of the data, you'd expect there to be significantly more commercial traffic on the M6 - there isn't.

The M6 might be the more important of the three routes from a national level, but but's not the most important to Galway or the west in general.

Are the traffic figures that you are using for the M6 road from the toll figures? I assume that a lot of the regular commercial traffic avoids the tolls on the M6 because of the cost?

As you say the M6 is the most important route from a national level. In my opinion all major infrastructure spend should all boil down to cost versus overall national economic benefit. We have had far too much of the "powerful local politician" method of selecting infrastructure projects. I know the powerful local politician is not applicable in the Galway context because we don 't have one/haven't had one :P Maybe that is why the project has been so badly delayed...............

Naux wrote: »

Are the traffic figures that you are using for the M6 road from the toll figures?

No the figures from the start of the motorway, which is not tolled.

Naux wrote: »

In my opinion all major infrastructure spend should all boil down to cost versus overall national economic benefit.

We have a major problem in this country with short sightedness and this attitude is the biggest contributor to it. This attitude would have prevented us from building a DC/motorway to Limerick - because the majority of sea and air traffic use the facilities Dublin - as was directly argued to me by several people while I worked in Dublin.

We have a major economic problem in that our national cost base is effectively Dublin's cost base. This needs paradigm needs to be broken (if not smashed). The only way to do that is to enable access to areas like the West & Southwest thereby providing companies with the opportunity to look outside the major areas. Access is one of the biggest problems facing the IDA in their efforts to attract companies into areas other than the cities. So the M17 & extensions to the N/M4 are vital to the further development of the west and Northwest.

For example, I'd argue that the M17/M18 is the single most important road project for the development of the western half of the country. Yes, I know it looks hyperbolic, but if you do more than glance at the project you'll start to see it.

Completion of the M17 to north of Tuam provides access to the motorway network from north Galway & south Mayo. That opens up Shannon & Foynes as major transport hubs. Further expansion of the N17 corridor north to Sligo gives Sligo an alternative to Dublin, but that's just a bonus.

The M17/M18 makes it more important that the M20 be built, opening up a corridor between the three major urban areas outside of Dublin. This gives access to Cork sea and airports - alternatives to Dublin for commercial traffic headed to/through France.

Throw in the N/M25 and we bring Rosslare & Waterford into the mix.

The moral of the story: this is not just about Galway.

antoobrien wrote: »

We have a major problem in this country with short sightedness and this attitude is the biggest contributor to it. This attitude would have prevented us from building a DC/motorway to Limerick - because the majority of sea and air traffic use the facilities Dublin - as was directly argued to me by several people while I worked in Dublin.

Why would "this attitude" have prevented us building a motorway between Galway and Limerick?? I think this attitude would have resulted in said road being built quicker!!

Short sightedness......build the road irrespective of whether we need it(not want it)and can pay for it or not. Hmmm.

antoobrien wrote: »

We have a major economic problem in that our national cost base is effectively Dublin's cost base. This needs paradigm needs to be broken (if not smashed). The only way to do that is to enable access to areas like the West & Southwest thereby providing companies with the opportunity to look outside the major areas. Access is one of the biggest problems facing the IDA in their efforts to attract companies into areas other than the cities. So the M17 & extensions to the N/M4 are vital to the further development of the west and Northwest.

I totally agree about the uneven development of the country and the need to smash it and like I said powerful politicians choosing projects etc etc etc have really exacerbated the problem. Problem is we now have (very) little money to play with.

antoobrien wrote: »

For example, I'd argue that the M17/M18 is the single most important road project for the development of the western half of the country. Yes, I know it looks hyperbolic, but if you do more than glance at the project you'll start to see it.

Completion of the M17 to north of Tuam provides access to the motorway network from north Galway & south Mayo. That opens up Shannon & Foynes as major transport hubs. Further expansion of the N17 corridor north to Sligo gives Sligo an alternative to Dublin, but that's just a bonus.

The M17/M18 makes it more important that the M20 be built, opening up a corridor between the three major urban areas outside of Dublin. This gives access to Cork sea and airports - alternatives to Dublin for commercial traffic headed to/through France.

Throw in the N/M25 and we bring Rosslare & Waterford into the mix.

Access to South Mayo is going to open up Shannon/Foynes as a major transport hub???? Can't see it. Monsignor Horan would be rolling in his grave!

M20 between Cork and Limerick is more important in my opinion than linking Tuam/South Mayo to Galway!

antoobrien wrote: »

The moral of the story: this is not just about Galway.

Exactly what I mean when I say we as a country should not borrow more to build all of this road if we could scale it back efficiently.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I can see what you're saying. In ways the M18 is more important than the M20. I could see Limerick - Galway being an alternative hub to Dublin and to Cork on its own. The M18 is more important than the M20 on the basis that it may no economically impact Cork as much as the lack of an M18 would for Galway - Limerick.

This country badly needs to get away from its Dublin centralism though. A potential motorway running from Cork to Sligo and maybe even reopening train services between Cork and Galway would be a massive help.

Definitely need to get away from Dublin centralisation.

The M18 and the M20 should be step 1 & 2 in the process of trying to rebalance the country a bit. Given the current economic squeeze I'd shelve the M17 until things improve.