Gardai carrying Guns

Tyron Jara · 08-07-2012 12:31am

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Best piece of equipment is a cool head and an ability to calm a situation, if you are constantly in battles then maybe you are part of the problem!!

Your 100% correct!! However some people do not listen to reason due to drugs or alcohol and theres even some who just dont care. Its hard to reason then but if you can it is by far the best thing to do.

sundy89 wrote: »

How often do reserves get called out and for how long. I know it may vary but could you give an estimate

Depends on the station your assigned too. Most reserves I know work the night shifts there units are on.

Harry Bosch. · 08-07-2012 12:35am

sundy89 wrote: »

Harry Bosch. wrote: »

I am also a Reserve Sunday. I don't mean that you are going to get beaten every time you work nor that its accepable, its the nature of the job. You are going to get bumped and bruised, slapped, spat at and that's the norm. You will be dealing with a wide range of situations and they do not always end peacefully, from a public order incident to restraining a violent prisioner you will end up wrestling some idiot on the ground. I think that Tasers should be introduced before firearms, but with the current management and the public perception of AGS this will take some time. I think the basics should be improved upon first, uniforms, kit and cars.

,

How often do reserves get called out and for how long. I know it may vary but could you give an estimate

You do not get called for regular duty, you'd inform your Sgt when your free to come in and then parade with your unit.Then there would be extra duties like Football, Rugby, concert and events all off which you'd be asked to work. Hours vary but most reserves complete there tour ( Ten hours ). I manage on average a shift a week. If you check out the Reserve forum there's more info there.

goldie fish · 08-07-2012 11:42am

Mike87 wrote: »

Jerry McCabe had a revolver and an uzi and he still managed to get himself killed- or did that just pass you by?

.

I find your language most insulting. Jerry(whom I knew as a colleague and friend) did not "get himself killed" !. He was murdered by PIRA cowards who rammed his car, which was guarding pensions being carried in a post office van, and then machine gunned him and his colleague, as they sat in their crippled patrol car, before either could react.

If you wish to debate the topic, perhaps you should show a small bit of respect for the Force itself, and the risks they face.

Mike87 · 08-07-2012 1:30pm

goldie fish wrote: »

I find your language most insulting. Jerry(whom I knew as a colleague and friend) did not "get himself killed" !. He was murdered by PIRA cowards who rammed his car, which was guarding pensions being carried in a post office van, and then machine gunned him and his colleague, as they sat in their crippled patrol car, before either could react.

If you wish to debate the topic, perhaps you should show a small bit of respect for the Force itself, and the risks they face.

I have the utmost respect for our AGS and support them any way I can. I dont know why you think I dont have any respect for them. I just dont see why we should spend 10million a year on arming every one of them when there is so many other, more urgently needed, uses for which we could spend that money. I dont hold this view from lack of respect.

And no offence to yourself, but Im not here to have a war over words on whether or not he was "killed" or "murdered by cowards". At the end of the day, he's dead unfortunately, no matter what way you look at it.

Eru · 08-07-2012 2:50pm

Mike87 wrote: »

he still managed to get himself killed

Wow, oh wow, what a shockingly insulting comment. I show more respect to the families of criminals that get killed by gardai.

Mike87 wrote: »

In this thread we are talking about arming *all* AGS with a single pistol. Thats every single AGS at an estimated cost of 10 million a year*. So thats 10 million a year, and you want to justify that bill by demonstrating how one single Garda (who was already armed anyway) was killed almost 20 years ago.

We have demonstrated far more Gardai than that have been shot dead. Add in wounded and it goes up but I guess we know the price you place on our lives now. How much is yours worth?

Actually don't answer because your first comment deserves nothing more than the ignore list

Hooch · 08-07-2012 3:02pm

Mike87 wrote: »

Jerry McCabe had a revolver and an uzi and he still managed to get himself killed- or did that just pass you by?

User infracted for this comment.

Seriously....."managed to get himself killed"!!!!! You come into an ES forum and spout that? Please think about who your audience is. Some of us knew him, (and Ben) worked with him and still help/know his family. Think it lucky you havint been banned.

Mike87 · 08-07-2012 3:37pm

Eru wrote: »

We have demonstrated far more Gardai than that have been shot dead. Add in wounded and it goes up but I guess we know the price you place on our lives now.

Well lets not forget that all those Gardai that you listed were killed about 30 years ago.

All Im asking (and nobody is answering me) is have any unarmed Gardai been killed on duty in say the last 10 years.

Another question I asked which also fell onto deaf ears was:

For any AGS reading this, what part of a Garda's weekly job does he feel incompetent/unsafe carrying out due to not having a firearm (and please dont tell us about how LE is run in other countries- we want to hear about Ireland).

As for me not having any respect for the Gardai. I have said multiple times on this thread that I have the utmost respect for AGS and the work they do- but apparantly most people here think that asking questions is a sign of disrespect.

Harry Bosch. · 08-07-2012 3:47pm

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Best piece of equipment is a cool head and an ability to calm a situation, if you are constantly in battles then maybe you are part of the problem!!

I agree with your post, but nowhere is it mentioned that people are constantly in battles nor being part of the problem whilst working, i was merely pointing out the worst case scenario and or the situation you can find yourself in, but you are very much correct. I mean no disrespect but sometimes i get more worried about how colleagues, both fulltime and reserves will react then about the actual incident itself. Deputy Patrick Nulty recently asked questions in the House of the Oirachtas about Pepperspray, its use, its cost and about the fact that prior to 2008 members of AGS could conduct there work without it. With fools like this equipment will be taken back rather than added.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/05/08/00010.asp

Eru · 08-07-2012 3:49pm

Mike87 wrote: »

All Im asking (and nobody is answering me) is have any unarmed Gardai been killed on duty in say the last 10 years.

Do you really not know the answer to that? Can you not do a google search before coming here and sprouting pure bull****?

Put the uniform on, do our jobs and then comment on the cost of arming compared to the cost of burying a human being otherwise **** off back to the hole you crawled out from.

(I know mods, I will get the coat but it was worth it)

Mike87 · 08-07-2012 3:53pm

Eru wrote: »

Wow, oh wow, what a shockingly insulting comment. I show more respect to the families of criminals that get killed by gardai.

Sorry to double post, but why do you & others keep insisting I have no respect for Jerry McCabe. I already said, he got killed and its unfortunate. Obviously Id prefer if he was still alive.

But the fact is, Im not AGS/legal etc.. Im the average layperson who often times uses words such murder/killed interchangably. Perhaps I shouldnt use them interchangably- but lets not jump the gun and assume I have no respect for him or other AGS over it.

Poccington · 08-07-2012 3:56pm

Mike87 wrote: »

As for me not having any respect for the Gardai. I have said multiple times on this thread that I have the utmost respect for AGS and the work they do- but apparantly most people here think that asking questions is a sign of disrespect.

Although not a member of AGS, I think the problem people have was more to do with your comment about Garda McCabe, or more specifically, the "Managed to get himself killed" part.

Anyway, as for arming AGS right across the board and associated costs etc. I think in terms of costs and training it's completely viable.

Realistically, they're not gonna go out and buy a pistol for every single member of AGS. You'll have stores in each station, with x amount of pistols and ammo which members would draw as each shift came on.
Ranges, AGS could build their own ones if the really wanted but there's no need. They could just use ranges owned by the Defence Forces, as already happens.
Training wise, it's simple enough. Firearms are some of the easiest and safest pieces of equipment to use as long as your instructed properly.
Plus, I really don't get the whole thing of people being worried about some members of AGS being given firearms. Seriously, between their time in Templemore, then their time spent in a station while still being under instruction, followed by being sent to a unit after training, any psychopath's are gonna struggle to slip through that many nets.

Personally, I think that the idea of having a force who's first responder to an armed situation or a member who could be caught up in an armed situation, in no position to end it or defend themselves, is gross neglect. Both from a protecting the public viewpoint and a self defence viewpoint. The recent incident of two members of AGS having to hide behind a car(Or was it a wall?) from an armed man, settled it for me. It's unacceptable.

Mike87 · 08-07-2012 4:01pm

Eru wrote: »

Do you really not know the answer to that? Can you not do a google search before coming here and sprouting pure bull****?

Put the uniform on, do our jobs and then comment on the cost of arming compared to the cost of burying a human being otherwise **** off back to the hole you crawled out from.

(I know mods, I will get the coat but it was worth it)

Ok... look heres the problem ERU. Im 100% open minded and willing to change my stance on arming all Gardai if someone answers my question.

what part of a Garda's weekly job does he feel incompetent/unsafe carrying out due to not having a firearm.

So far, instead of answering my question, Ive been told Im ignorant, told I wouldnt understand, you demonstrated all the Gardai who were killed 30 years ago and now when I ask again you tell me could I not google it, or put on the uniform.

Well could you not just work with me and help me understand it instead of just getting defensive and asking me what price do I put on a human life?

Mr Simpson · 08-07-2012 4:24pm

Are you only looking to hear about Gardai that have been killed? What about the numerous unarmed Gardai that have been shot and injured over the last few years. I've just listed four below, but there have been plenty of other incidents.

2012

2009

2007

2006

Pappa Charlie · 08-07-2012 4:34pm

Harry Bosch. wrote: »

I agree with your post, but nowhere is it mentioned that people are constantly in battles nor being part of the problem whilst working, i was merely pointing out the worst case scenario and or the situation you can find yourself in, but you are very much correct. I mean no disrespect but sometimes i get more worried about how colleagues, both fulltime and reserves will react then about the actual incident itself. Deputy Patrick Nulty recently asked questions in the House of the Oirachtas about Pepperspray, its use, its cost and about the fact that prior to 2008 members of AGS could conduct there work without it. With fools like this equipment will be taken back rather than added.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/05/08/00010.asp[/QUOTE]

I think some people presume that all Gardai would like to be armed, I have carried both the .38 and UZI in the past and its some responsibility to take on and I was never really at ease with it. I think that the current system of having RSU is excellent. What we need is more of these units. They are very well trained in what they do. The issue is that they may not always be available when needed especially for members in rural areas but its great progress thanks to the inspectorate Kathleen O Toole. I dont believe that every Garda wants to be armed or should be armed. Tazors maybe.

Mike87 · 08-07-2012 4:39pm

mmcn90 wrote: »

Are you only looking to hear about Gardai that have been killed? What about the numerous unarmed Gardai that have been shot and injured over the last few years. I've just listed four below, but there have been plenty of other incidents.

2012

2009

2007

2006

We've already discussed them. Though if your an actual Garda feel free to answer the question in my last post.

Pappa Charlie · 08-07-2012 4:43pm

Mike87 wrote: »

We've already discussed them. Though if your an actual Garda feel free to answer the question in my last post.

I think given your previous comment you dont deserve a reply!

Mr Simpson · 08-07-2012 4:44pm

Mike87 wrote: »

We've already discussed them. Though if your an actual Garda feel free to answer the question in my last post.

I'm not a Garda, nor did I ever claim to be. Any of the incidences I listed could very easily have ended in the death of the members involved, therefore I see them as no different to listing where Gardai have been killed and I don't understand why you do.

Harry Bosch. · 08-07-2012 4:47pm

I really have to wonder at peoples reaction to members of AGS being armed and if/how and why it effects them. What are their genuine reasons, have they a grudge, have they had negitive dealings with members and the organisation as a whole, what have they really to fear? I don't accept cost as an answer. The Stabvest, the ASP and Peppryspray courses where rolled out with very little problems and money was found! The ordinary law abiding member of the public does not know nor care what you have or have not got on your belt, He dials the station/ 999 and expects service, will he turn away uniformed ARMED guards? He wil not, he will want the situation dealth with the best it can and in a professional manner. Yes, some if not all Police uniforms can look intimidating and thats for a reason but its not the boy scouts. The ordinary Law abidiing citizen who has no day to day dealings with AGS, i personally think will not be put out, in fact i will say he/she will want the best kit for its fellow citizens, the ones who took an oath to uphold the law, constitution and to protect its citizens. Society and times are changing, whether we like it or not..

Pappa Charlie · 08-07-2012 4:54pm

Harry Bosch. wrote: »

I really have to wonder at peoples reaction to members of AGS being armed and if/how and why it effects them. What are their genuine reasons, have they a grudge, have they had negitive dealings with members and the organisation as a whole, what have they really to fear? I don't accept cost as an answer. The Stabvest, the ASP and Peppryspray courses where rolled out with very little problems and money was found! The ordinary law abiding member of the public does not know nor care what you have or have not got on your belt, He dials the station/ 999 and expects service, will he turn away uniformed ARMED guards? He wil not, he will want the situation dealth with the best it can and in a professional manner. Yes, some if not all Police uniforms can look intimidating and thats for a reason but its not the boy scouts. The ordinary Law abidiing citizen who has no day to day dealings with AGS, i personally think will not be put out, in fact i will say he/she will want the best kit for its fellow citizens, the ones who took an oath to uphold the law, constitution and to protect its citizens. Society and times are changing, whether we like it or not..

I disagree with you on that one, I have always found that when abroad in countries with armed police that they are less approchable to the public and have noted the lack of interaction with the public. An unarmed policeman or woman says alot about your country. While its not perfect I think we should hold onto it as long as we can.

Harry Bosch. · 08-07-2012 4:54pm

I really have to wonder at peoples reaction to members of AGS being armed and if/how and why it effects them. What are their genuine reasons, have they a grudge, have they had negitive dealings with members and the organisation as a whole, what have they really to fear? I don't accept cost as an answer. The Stabvest, the ASP and Peppryspray courses where rolled out with very little problems and money was found! The ordinary law abiding member of the public does not know nor care what you have or have not got on your belt, He dials the station/ 999 and expects service, will he turn away uniformed ARMED guards? He wil not, he will want the situation dealth with the best it can and in a professional manner. Yes, some if not all Police uniforms can look intimidating and thats for a reason but its not the boy scouts. The ordinary Law abidiing citizen who has no day to day dealings with AGS, i personally think will not be put out, in fact i will say he/she will want the best kit for its fellow citizens, the ones who took an oath to uphold the law, constitution and to protect its citizens. Society and times are changing, whether we like it or not..

Harry Bosch. · 08-07-2012 5:15pm

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I think some people presume that all Gardai would like to be armed, I have carried both the .38 and UZI in the past and its some responsibility to take on and I was never really at ease with it. I think that the current system of having RSU is excellent. What we need is more of these units. They are very well trained in what they do. The issue is that they may not always be available when needed especially for members in rural areas but its great progress thanks to the inspectorate Kathleen O Toole. I dont believe that every Garda wants to be armed or should be armed. Tazors maybe.

Excellent post Pappa Charlie. I think thats a question that people think they know the answer to, i think that should it go to a vote amongst members that it would be defeated. I like you agree with the RSU system, more units need to be introduced, then if a member wants the extra responsibility then the option of these units exists. Maybe if members in each district new these units were patroling and only minutes away they might not want to be armed themselves.

Markcheese · 08-07-2012 5:24pm

Just because a Garda is armed, it won't stop him/her being shot... Most of the time the Garda has no reason to think that the person they're stopping/checkpointing ect is armed ....and if the Garda is thinking that way their sanity won't last long.....

Mike87 · 08-07-2012 5:28pm

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I think given your previous comment you dont deserve a reply!

You know what. I give up. I really couldnt be bothered arguing about this anymore. Im leaving.

I came into this thread supporting 100% that we arm all AGS with pistols, but just not right now because there is more pressing issues such as cars/uniforms etc... I get the head ate of me over that idea.

I ask some simple questions about just how dangerous been a garda actually is. They get ignored. Then the two Garda that do finally answer me say "do a google search" and "you dont deserve a reply".

I used to support arming all AGS- but now I dont. Now Im going to go out of my way to protest it. Given their inabilitiy to answer some simple questions I now seriously doubt their competency in firearm handling.

Goodluck with your firearm acquirement goals in 2012....

Pappa Charlie · 08-07-2012 5:40pm

Mike87 wrote: »

You know what. I give up. I really couldnt be bothered arguing about this anymore. Im leaving.

I came into this thread supporting 100% that we arm all AGS with pistols, but just not right now because there is more pressing issues such as cars/uniforms etc... I get the head ate of me over that idea.

I ask some simple questions about just how dangerous been a garda actually is. They get ignored. Then the two Garda that do finally answer me say "do a google search" and "you dont deserve a reply".

I used to support arming all AGS- but now I dont. Given their inabilitiy to answer some simple questions I now seriously doubt their competency in firearm handling.

Goodluck with your firearm acquirement goals in 2012....

Hopefully we'll get some gun powder for those pistols!

Eru · 08-07-2012 6:01pm

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I disagree with you on that one, I have always found that when abroad in countries with armed police that they are less approchable to the public and have noted the lack of interaction with the public.

Too be fair we tend to look at the US, Mexico, Brazil, etc and other supposed violent places when we speak about armed police but we never consider the Australian police, Japanese or Italians for example.

Japan has one of the lowest gun crimes in the world and while the Japanes and Australian police are very approachable the Italian Carabinieri are well known and liked by both locals and tourists in Italy despite being well armed military police

Harry Bosch. wrote: »

i think that should it go to a vote amongst members that it would be defeated.

It was voted on via the GRA about 2 years ago and I think was passed by 60% in favour (of admittedly low responses so a pinch of salt)

Potential-Monke · 08-07-2012 6:24pm

Mike87 wrote: »

Another question I asked which also fell onto deaf ears was:

For any AGS reading this, what part of a Garda's weekly job does he feel incompetent/unsafe carrying out due to not having a firearm (and please dont tell us about how LE is run in other countries- we want to hear about Ireland).

One Garda cannot answer that question, it depends on the Garda and their previous experiences/interactions with different groups. Many will say going into a halting site where a domestic is taking place, others will say responding to a call where J. Bloggs is yet again coked off his head swinging a samurai sword/hatchet around an estate, or responding to a report of a shooting at a house where there is a drug war going on (very little of what happens in different situations is reported in the media, only serving members in the area are fully aware).

Then you have those members who work near the borders, where there is a high probability of people who genuinely hate you because of your job, being armed.

I'm not for every member being armed yet, but we certainly need an increase of RSU or ERU units, the facts at present would shock general Joe Public. I also believe that there should be at least 1 member in every car trained in and carrying a tazer. More effective and less lethal than the ASP and OC.

There are strict procedures and training in place for the current equipment (so much, that if taken wrongly could deter a new member from using them in the first place), this wouldn't change with the introduction of tazers, and reading the policies and procedures for the ERU on the use of tazers it is even stricter.

Chiparus · 08-07-2012 7:19pm

Most guards who are shot are hit by bullets from their own weapons.

deadwood · 08-07-2012 7:54pm

Chiparus wrote: »

Most guards who are shot are hit by bullets from their own weapons.

That's an intereting statistic. Have you any links to back this up?

Harry Bosch. · 08-07-2012 8:08pm

It was voted on via the GRA about 2 years ago and I think was passed by 60% in favour (of admittedly low responses so a pinch of salt)[/QUOTE]

I honestly thought that members would have voted no, very interesting, thanks.

charlemont · 08-07-2012 8:10pm

One big problem I can see from arming uniformed Gardaí would be this, Say for example a bloke robs a shop with a loaded handgun but he only wants the money has no particular plans to injure someone, Then he comes out running and sees a uniformed cop so if he knows all cops have guns, What's he going to do ? He will more than likely shoot to kill, Putting the cops life at risk.

Whereas currently he may just point the weapon in the hope the cop fears for his life and backs off.

The issues and punishments around crime need to be solved before all cops are armed, And it needs to be done soon, The country is gone crazy.

Harry Bosch. · 08-07-2012 8:55pm

charlemont wrote: »

One big problem I can see from arming uniformed Gardaí would be this, Say for example a bloke robs a shop with a loaded handgun but he only wants the money has no particular plans to injure someone, Then he comes out running and sees a uniformed cop so if he knows all cops have guns, What's he going to do ? He will more than likely shoot to kill, Putting the cops life at risk.

Whereas currently he may just point the weapon in the hope the cop fears for his life and backs off.

The issues and punishments around crime need to be solved before all cops are armed, And it needs to be done soon, The country is gone crazy.

He has a loaded handgun, he" only wants the money", "No particular plans to injure someone", points the handgun but may or maynot use it?? but the Cop has to back down!! Where is the deterant in your logic? You think an armed member confronting this poor pennyless thug and possibly shooting him is wrong?? Is this comedy night lads?

charlemont · 08-07-2012 9:07pm

Harry Bosch. wrote: »

He has a loaded handgun, he" only wants the money", "No particular plans to injure someone", points the handgun but may or maynot use it?? but the Cop has to back down!! Where is the deterant in your logic? You think an armed member confronting this poor pennyless thug and possibly shooting him is wrong?? Is this comedy night lads?

I could have came up with a heap of different scenarios but they will all boil down to the same thing, Having guns won't make you safer, It will just make you a target.

I see what you mean about a deterant, And no I never said it would be wrong to shoot the poor penniless thug..

troposphere · 08-07-2012 10:40pm

How does having a gun make you a target?

charlemont · 08-07-2012 10:57pm

troposphere wrote: »

How does having a gun make you a target?

If its a fight or flight situation and both parties have guns, Well its more likely to become a fight situation then.

I'v nothing against any well trained Guard having guns, But I would have a problem with some Keystone Cop wannabee having a gun on him/her and overreacting to a situation.

troposphere · 09-07-2012 4:22am

charlemont wrote: »

If its a fight or flight situation and both parties have guns, Well its more likely to become a fight situation then.

I'v nothing against any well trained Guard having guns, But I would have a problem with some Keystone Cop wannabee having a gun on him/her and overreacting to a situation.

Why should it not become a fight situation? Use a gun to commit a crime and you should be prepared to deal with the consequences. You seem to want to protect the perpetrator.

Zambia · 09-07-2012 5:39am

charlemont wrote: »

[
I'v nothing against any well trained Guard having guns, But I would have a problem with some Keystone Cop wannabee having a gun on him/her and overreacting to a situation.

so is that a vote for arming all members as all Garda are trained in the same place?

IRLConor · 09-07-2012 9:22am

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I have carried both the .38 and UZI in the past and its some responsibility to take on and I was never really at ease with it.

Out of curiosity, in your personal experience, would there have been anything which could have made you feel more at ease with carrying firearms on duty? More training (whether in accuracy/familiarisation or tactics or something else)? A better expectation of support from the organisation in the event you were involved in a shooting? A wider range of options, e.g. baton + spray + tazer + pistol?

For context, I shoot very regularly but I'm not a member of either the Gardai or the Defence Forces. Firearms are a part of my life, so I'm very much at ease with them though a large part of that is because I'll never have to point mine at anyone.

Eru · 09-07-2012 1:01pm

charlemont wrote: »

One big problem I can see from arming uniformed Gardaí would be this, Say for example a bloke robs a shop with a loaded handgun but he only wants the money has no particular plans to injure someone, Then he comes out running and sees a uniformed cop so if he knows all cops have guns, What's he going to do ? He will more than likely shoot to kill, Putting the cops life at risk.

Whereas currently he may just point the weapon in the hope the cop fears for his life and backs off.

The issues and punishments around crime need to be solved before all cops are armed, And it needs to be done soon, The country is gone crazy.

Thats all well and good if cops have options. People seem to put Gardai in the same position as a random person, we cannot simple decide to ignore a crime. hes committing an armed robbery, we act. Its that simple.

And the issue about arming Gardai = armed criminals. Surely then we should hand back our batons and spray and start carrying feathers and the criminals will stop carrying batons, guns, knives, stanly blades, broken bottles, knuckle dusters, swords and baseball bats????

perhaps if we stop carrying handcuffs criminals will stop struggling and resisting arrest?

And then maybe we can become the Republic of Utopia

Rawhead · 09-07-2012 1:18pm

Eru wrote: »

Thats all well and good if cops have options. People seem to put Gardai in the same position as a random person, we cannot simple decide to ignore a crime. hes committing an armed robbery, we act. Its that simple.

And the issue about arming Gardai = armed criminals. Surely then we should hand back our batons and spray and start carrying feathers and the criminals will stop carrying batons, guns, knives, stanly blades, broken bottles, knuckle dusters, swords and baseball bats????

perhaps if we stop carrying handcuffs criminals will stop struggling and resisting arrest?

And then maybe we can become the Republic of Utopia

If someone points a loaded sawn-off at a Garda he/she has the same options as everyone else i.e. do what the person holding the gun wants.
You can tackle him and maybe win the Scott medal or you can tackle him and win it posthumously, either way the scrote will do no more than 10 years and your kids grow up without a father/mother.
No one expects a unarmed Garda to tackle an armed robber.
Don't start the giving it the hero talk about having to dive on a gun just because of the job, because at the end of the day that's all it is, a job.

Eru · 09-07-2012 3:07pm

Rawhead wrote: »

If someone points a loaded sawn-off at a Garda he/she has the same options as everyone else i.e. do what the person holding the gun wants.
You can tackle him and maybe win the Scott medal or you can tackle him and win it posthumously, either way the scrote will do no more than 10 years and your kids grow up without a father/mother.
No one expects a unarmed Garda to tackle an armed robber.
Don't start the giving it the hero talk about having to dive on a gun just because of the job, because at the end of the day that's all it is, a job.

Unarmed members tackle armed criminals all the time, maybe you wouldn't but many would and have.

As for giving it the hero, its pretty simple you as a Gardai do whatever it is you can to tackle criminals. If they are armed you may well not jump on them but you follow / radio in / etc and thats more than Joe Soap does.

I dont know if your a member or not but if you are I hope your never dispatched to a violent call with me

charlemont · 09-07-2012 3:27pm

troposphere wrote: »

Why should it not become a fight situation? Use a gun to commit a crime and you should be prepared to deal with the consequences. You seem to want to protect the perpetrator.

Your wrong, I'v got respect for people who put themselves in harm's way, Cops Firemen, Paramedics etc so I'm not saying I want to protect the perpetrator.

I'm only trying to make a point that if some nut case with a gun knows that the cop running after him has a gun well then its more likely he will attempt to shoot the cop rather then try to flee.

Rawhead · 09-07-2012 7:12pm

Eru wrote: »

Unarmed members tackle armed criminals all the time, maybe you wouldn't but many would and have.

As for giving it the hero, its pretty simple you as a Gardai do whatever it is you can to tackle criminals. If they are armed you may well not jump on them but you follow / radio in / etc and thats more than Joe Soap does.

I dont know if your a member or not but if you are I hope your never dispatched to a violent call with me

I'd wager that most calls end up violent when you respond

charlemont · 09-07-2012 10:22pm

Zambia wrote: »

so is that a vote for arming all members as all Garda are trained in the same place?

Well yes I know ye are trained in the same place but I'd presume different ranking cops have done different training with guns. I just don't think the average uniformed guard walking the street needs to be armed but maybe allow them to be armed in the very rural areas where the nearest armed cop could be 30/40 or more Km's away.

peter65 · 09-07-2012 10:27pm

Look lads, I've had both the privilege and misfortune of having to use a firearm in my job. This idea of a cop drawing his gun and over reacting just doesn't happen. It's drilled into everyone that you draw a gun and can't justify you lose your job or go to jail. Look at all the shooting incidents involving gardai/police in the last 20 years and compare that to how many incidents involved over use of a baton or boot?

Pappa Charlie · 10-07-2012 12:21am

IRLConor wrote: »

Out of curiosity, in your personal experience, would there have been anything which could have made you feel more at ease with carrying firearms on duty? More training (whether in accuracy/familiarisation or tactics or something else)? A better expectation of support from the organisation in the event you were involved in a shooting? A wider range of options, e.g. baton + spray + tazer + pistol?

For context, I shoot very regularly but I'm not a member of either the Gardai or the Defence Forces. Firearms are a part of my life, so I'm very much at ease with them though a large part of that is because I'll never have to point mine at anyone.

to answer your question I dont think so, as another poster said you are well aware of the consequences of using it and I wouldnt have taken it on if I wasnt prepared to use it in the right circumstances and as per training. The novelty also wears off!

Manic Moran · 10-07-2012 7:25am

IRLConor wrote: »

For context, I shoot very regularly but I'm not a member of either the Gardai or the Defence Forces. Firearms are a part of my life, so I'm very much at ease with them though a large part of that is because I'll never have to point mine at anyone.

As someone who has pointed his firearm at people (And tried to shoot them... I missed) I haven't found it to be an issue. I am now at ease with firearms, and am confident that I know when not and when to use them. I wasn't always so at ease with them, though, it did take a bit of getting used to. However, after a year wearing a sidearm every day, I actually missed having it there when I finally took it off.

I think there are two requirements.
1) Be sufficiently trained that the firearm simply becomes another tool on the belt, which is used appropriately without having to think about it. If you have to either debate with yourself how to use the firearm, or even take the time to debate if you should use the firearm, you have been insufficiently trained.
2) Personal pet peeve:

It's drilled into everyone that you draw a gun and can't justify you lose your job or go to jail.

It's not quite what you said, but related: A 'fear of punishment' has led to casualties in the US military. Even in circumstances where, to the observer after the fact, it was pretty obvious that lethal force was appropriate, often times troops would be worried that some laywer reading the paperwork afterwords would come to their own conclusions about what they felt was reasonable, and they didn't want to go to jail. (There was little basis behind this belief, but the belief was there anyway).
If the Powers-that-are have done their job, they will have created a training program which meets requirement 1 above, and they are confident that the trainees are of such quality that they are now authorised to carry firearms. The corollary to that is that the Powers-that-are must make it clear to the personnel that the presumption of correctness then lies with those members of the force: That unless evidence is shown to the contrary of justification, their decision to use lethal force will be backed to the hilt by the Powers who conducted the training and certification to begin with. A life-or-death situation is not the moment for a member to be pondering the question of whether or not he can justify the action to others. All that matters is that he can justify it to himself so that he has the confidence to take the actions which can save his life or that of others: If he's been well trained, evidence to the contrary will not be forthcoming.

NTM

FGR · 10-07-2012 4:05pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Even in circumstances where, to the observer after the fact, it was pretty obvious that lethal force was appropriate, often times troops would be worried that some laywer reading the paperwork afterwords would come to their own conclusions about what they felt was reasonable, and they didn't want to go to jail. (There was little basis behind this belief, but the belief was there anyway). NTM

Sad thing is that there are many Gardaí who feel this way about the pepper spray and baton. Nevermind a firearm..

K.Flyer · 15-07-2012 2:55pm

In light of the recent spate of armed robberies over the last couple of weeks, I wonder have many peoples opinions changed regarding fighting fire with fire. One thing for sure, since the cutting of Garda numbers and their overtime is it going to be open season for armed robberies like we have just seen.

Markcheese · 17-07-2012 7:20am

I'd rather it be a choice thing ... Ie. The garda has chosen to do fire-arm training and the force has decided this guy is suitable to carry fire arms as part of the job .... Leaving most Gardai not to have to worry about guns for 99.9 % of the job....

On a slightly related topic... Is there a gost estate somewhere in the middle of no-where( near templemore ???) that could be bought for buttons and converted to an urban firearms training ground ... Would have to be cheaper than building one .

:•)

redsurfer · 17-07-2012 10:46am

If you call 999 and look for help because it is an armed incident, we will respond. But who do you want to arrive to help you?
A: Gardai that arrive who are armed and able to deal with it ?
or
B: Gardai who will be unarmed and unable to defend themselves or protect you ?

We will do our job but allow us to defend ourselves and the public.

Gardai carrying Guns

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