Bord Gais Heat - Overcharged?!

Cheers for the advice, I'll look into this. I've always said in all correspondence I'm happy to pay any bill based on actual reads.

The_Conductor wrote: »

You do owe them money- even if they have been singularly unsuccessful in enumerating what this is- don't forget that- but by bringing out a weapon, even a faulty weapon, that will cost them time and annoyance- someone might see sense and get shot of the case.

Excuse me, they failed to install the new meters with due diligence, they failed to keep the old and new meters up and running properly, they are invoicing amounts that are tenfold what they used to be because they have ignored the existing pipes layout in the apartments and he owns them money?!?

Based on what, invoices? Please allow me to invoice you for some random amount of money then!

Do you realize that a usage of 1500-2000kw/month x 12 months means that we would be living in a new ice age with outside temperatures around -25C?

Guys, the management company don't give a sh*t and so BGHeat and so the solicitor I tried to involve in the matter. It would be nice if we could meet and come up with a concerted approach to this matter (class action?) because after almost 3 f*cking years I am still seeing the arrears piling up.

And I am exactly in a situation where the balance reflects a reality where "it is always winter".

The_Conductor wrote: »

Note- this is for the owners/landlords to chase- not tenants.

This means that all the tenants are doomed: hot water is in their names, not their landlords'.

P.S. The bean counters woke up: I have just received the invoice covering the period from Nov13 to Jan14 and BG Heat are threatening disconnection.

I too received the bill today covering 13-Nov-13 to 14-Jan-14, with the threat of disconnection, fairly certain the direct debit went through in december.

Sent a mail to skeenan @ bordgais.ie which is OOO until 10/02/14.

as for the underlying problem, the reading never made sense and are always around 1000kwh may I be here or on a trip.

Hi,

I don't think anyone has resolved this? Perhaps we should meed up as a group and try and contact them as a group?

Serena doesnt work there, they are still using her contact but its a different woman now.. So half the remaining balance.. On what grounds do you have to pay that.. Can they prove that you used that electricity as I have never had the meter in my place read.. My last conversations an engineer was meant to come out to me and read it.. I have not followed up as I have asked for that and some other information(that twice she said was being sent) which never arrived, so my approach is to let them chase me when they are good and ready..

Rgds,

Hi,

yeah might work as a group.. Albeit having red this whole thread through in the past it seems to be ongoing for years.. Sure they only started sending legitimate invoices recently (they all had invalid vat numbers on them until I pointed it out to them) Yeah thats the same standing charge as me. I only cancelled about 6 months ago so only owe about 3 payments of it, but my overall bill is very hefty, over 2000 now, and no sense to that.

Although the approach was rubbished earlier in this thread I have found that involving local politicians has resulted in some success (all are aware of this issue and many have been on site to view this metering clusterf*ck first hand)

Now when I say success I mean at least being informed of what the hell is happening as opposed to being told by BG Heat that "they are investigating and can send a letter detailing this", 4 times now ive been told I'd recieve a letter that never came (funnily enough their huge bills are well able to reach my address).

Following on from correspondence with local politicians I was put in contact with one of the Custom House Square directors, turns out a detailed, fully-costed proposal was put forward by the management company to the members at an EGM that propsed that the management create a new utility company to take over the running and billing of the apartment complex heating system but only on the proviso that the current faulty system was corrected. BG Heat proposed that this new company also take over the existing customer debts but this was rejected by CHS management.

This looked like a good solution to myself and my landlord was advised of this EGM so he could vote (not sure if he did). At the EGM I believe this proposal was rejected, I wasnt there so cant comment (perhaps others on here were in attendance) so it looks like its back to the drawing board.

I wrote an email to the Independent asking if they are interested in covering the story.

I have used a catchy subject: "Bord Gais Heat overcharging 100+ households since 2011 (possible fraud case)", but so far not even an acknowledgement.

Maybe it could be beneficial if they receive other emails and phone calls from some of you as well.

Contact details are as follow:

"For the online newsroom, call 01 705 5801 or email contact (at) independent.ie "

In my opinion, public awareness and acknowledgement that there are 100+ houlseholds in the same situation would prevent these buffoons from:

a) Mass disconnecting everybody
b) Using a debt collection agency to forcefully get your money (plus interest and fines and who knows whatever else), waste more of your time and possibly screw your credit rating in the process

As of today nobody knows about this but the parties involved and in the end, we are 5 "idiots" trying to solve a situation that is unsolvable.

The regulator would probably propose you to pay 50% of the disputed charges you supposedly owe BG Heat, which is exactly what BG Heat is already willing to accept without flinching.

I believe putting some pressure on them in the end would be good thing.

just rang the building manager and they are in negotations with BG to take over the system. They are replacing all bypasses in the apartments, and if its succesful they will take over the system. A new energy provider will be contacted, we will be notified in due course. He stated that bills will be accurate and cheaper.

Doesn't help us with our current issues mind. We would have to take an actual case against BG together to do something there.

Hi Boozezela,

Thanks for the info?

What do you hope to gain by leaking to media etc? From my understanding of this situation, if the management company take the "system" over, its better for the owners/tenants, albeit the unit cost might go up(not ideal!!)

I had a chat with Serena of BGH the other day, as I stopped paying them last September.. I "owe" them over 2200. Some mix up with meters etc. I have a meter inside my house, am a bit diff to most apartments where I am positioned.. Anyway they have wiped off all my usage as they messed it up and as an apology for having this mess. So for me, I have never paid for any unit usage in over 2.5 yrs I will just pay them the rental I havent paid in last year(55*4 so far)..

So since BGH are selling this to CHSM, what is point of chasing them, but from reading the document, it was well known it seemed, and we were being shafted alright..

Happy to help, but as said, I have had my unit usage for last 2.5 yrs wiped off so don't think will get better.

J

That's a good point alright.. You have the info there to expose them, how you go about it is the thing.. If you can get in a national paper or get a public person to back it. Use social media but depends on how many people you know and if they care about reposting/tweeting etc..

They don't deserve to get any money from us, as you said they knew about this f*ck up for years..

I have a letter tonight (probably delivered Friday) dated 27th August informing me that BG Heat services are terminating at Custom House Square effective 26th September, that CHS management will be writing to us with the new details/arrangements, and that Frontline Energy will be the new provider.

Usual stuff about current account being terminated and final BG Heat bill to arrive at the end of September.

That is a hefty increase alright..

Look enough talking on this.. We need to meet up and discuss this. There is a pub next door(lagoona). we should pick a date and time.. As by sounds of it frontline are coming and we have nothing to do with it. The agm voted for it.. but surely there has to be some leeway on the amount they increase, as I doubt it would have been voted in if there was to be that amount of an increase?

J

Frontline's contract is a funny read:

- "Equipment" means the satellite district heating unit, ###excluding the heat meter###, installed in the Customer's apartment and connected to the District Heating System.

- "Heat charge" means the fee payable to frontline per kWh of heat used by the Customer.

- "Heat meter" means the meter installed in the Equipment, which records on a continuous basis...

So the meter is not the meter in the apartment except that it is.

And by the way these meters do not record, usage, they ESTIMATE it based on 3 variables:

Temperature of the water at thermal probe 1, temperature of the returning water at thermal probe 2, amount of water flowing, which is determined - if i recall correctly - using sonic waves.

Said that, if the meter is not properly setup and calibrated, it is not accurate.
In my case, a couple of years ago I have noticed that it took 1 minute to reach the "peak measurement" and 15-20 to go back to zero, even cutting off the water supply closing both valves on the flow and return pipes.

Also I do not see a section that lists their obligations and responsibilities, but being 1AM, I could just be tired...

I am available every evening from 6PM onward for a meeting. Lagoona is a nice place.

By the way, the increase is not just "a couple of cents, plus rounding", because going from 5.92c/kWh to 8c/kWh there is an increase of 35.1%, which means that what under BG Heat was a €100 bill, under Frontline will magically become a €135 bill.

Haven't received letter yet, was going to wait another day and contact them for it..

250 euro is pretty hefty alright. I assume we get that when we leave at some point? (only useful if you are a tenant)

Don't really see what option there is.. I was talking to the management company director(Adrian Carrie) yesterday.. He stated that in long run bills would be cheaper as it would be more efficient, but as always Ill wait and see..

In end of day what can we do.. There is no other company that can provide the service as the apartments there are not fitted for normal gas etc, so only this sh*t system can be used.. Now its been sold to Frontline, so no idea how good they are..

Did the letter say anything about when bill period starts from? Are they going to take an actual reading(as I am not letting them do an estimated one).

johnnymorgan wrote: »

250 euro is pretty hefty alright. I assume we get that when we leave at some point? (only useful if you are a tenant)

Assuming you don't owe them any money and there are no balance adjustments needed, they state you'll get your deposit back in 56 days.

By the way, I wouldn't hurry to sign that contract, as in the price section there are no figures.

IANAL, bu I wouldn't want to be in a situation where they can bill me whatever amount they want, change the price as they fit without informing me and the likes. Besides the you decide to terminate the agreement, they want a notice of THREE months, which would make the final accounting, when you move out, a nightmare.

I am not going to sign, a conversion to immersion heating and heat storage seems cheaper in the long run.

As per the price going down in the future, the argument does make any sense: if you circulate the same amount of water in the apartment, at the same temperature, you will be paying the same amount of money, regardless of the efficiency of the system.

As a single tenant there is nothing you can do, you are right. Now if a large fraction of the tenants refused to join, the heating company wouldn't be able to sustain the expenses, and rather than operating at a loss they would be forced to come to term with us. But there is little point in 3-4 people meeting in a pub to discuss this, we should go door to door and get people to adhere to this initiative. And I doubt any of us has the time and dedication to see this through... so we'll sign.

manuhalo wrote: »

As a single tenant there is nothing you can do, you are right. Now if a large fraction of the tenants refused to join, the heating company wouldn't be able to sustain the expenses, and rather than operating at a loss they would be forced to come to term with us. But there is little point in 3-4 people meeting in a pub to discuss this, we should go door to door and get people to adhere to this initiative. And I doubt any of us has the time and dedication to see this through... so we'll sign.

The point of meeting is to discuss how to leak the document to the media.

Unless you all are happy to pay the arrears in full when BG Heat will come knocking on the door or the bills are transferred for collection to an agency that will **** your credit rating as well in the process.

In any case, the water tank is also equipped with an "access port" that is used to fit an immersion heater should any of you would want to still have access to hot water.

Installation and electricity to run it are you, but it probably will be cheaper than paying the compulsory charge for the privilege of having an energy provider, plus usage.

Hi All,

Just saw this link. Re Frontline I won't sign the contract. My opinion is that I had a contract with BG (I was actually happy with them) and a third party cancelled this contract and forcing me to a new. All financial responsibility (the increase) should be with those who cancelled the contract. Is the meeting still on?

@Sened.

A third party did not cancel it.. BG were winding down the service.. So the management company took it over and needed a new supplier.. Frontline were chosen and it was all voted in back in May I think.. All owners apparently received the letter about it.. A lot of people are tenants in there so probably knew nothing about the meeting.

If you are an owner, you had the responsibility to vote, if you are tenant you are same as me..

The fact you are happy with BG, is a surprise But either way they were winding down the service so come end of this month they are gone.. So you can sign up with the new supplier, or alter the apartment and put in a new immersion yourself or have cold water for ever

J

does anyone know that who paid/will pay for the valve installation?

The commission said the same to me.. and the consumer agency were of no help either.. you are wasting your time..

I am not too worried about BGH as don't think they have much ground to stand on since they were aware of all these problems for a long time(the document proofs that)

The thing of signing up with frontline that annoyed me was having to give 3 months notice but have confirmed that with Denise in there
"Hi John

I understand your concerns here. The 3 months is a guideline really. Sometimes we receive notification the day before a move out and Frontline Energy are well equipped to deal with such cases. We urge the tenants to notify us when they know they are moving which is as you said in most cases is 1 months’ notice. The owner will notify us directly also. On the morning of your departure we will take a read and generate a bill which will be hand delivered to you by the building manager or you can receive this electronically.
When this bill is paid we will refund your deposit and close your account with Frontline Energy"

The price going up. Meh, nothing I can do about this.. It was voted in so we are stuck with it. As said in other posts, can put in immersion but if you are a tenant you don't have the option.

So for me I will sign up, but BGH wont get a cent from me.

Hi messy tessy,

can you post it to <SNIP>?

Guys. This is a total rip off. We should definitely do something about it and not just wait with our fingers crossed that we will pay less. This won't happen!!!
I just called Frontline and they confirmed that we will get charged 50 eur per month even if we don't use the heating at all which is more than we were paying when we were actually using the heating at the moment (our bill was 44 eur per month max; 88 for two months). The gas charges will then be put on top of that! I'm just wondering how much can we expect to be charged then. More than 100eur per month? Are we living in castle or a lousy apartment?
I would suggest we gather and call up the Custom House management. They were the ones who made that brilliant decision. I would like to hear what they have to say about this. Maybe they can tell us how much money they put into their pockets for liaising with Frontline.
Let me know if you are in.