Miss Universe has a little secret...

Gummy Panda · 10-04-2012 3:56pm

I don't see the big deal. These women would be fighting against the odds to win anyway.

Good luck to them

The King of Moo · 10-04-2012 3:57pm

davet82 wrote: »

Well take Michael Jackson, was he a white man trapped in a black mans body apparently, point is how do you know who is genuine and who is just crazy?

Does it matter?

It's their bodies; it's their choice.

amacachi · 10-04-2012 3:59pm

This is going to be like a more expensive version of an episode of Maury.

jaja321 · 10-04-2012 4:00pm

davet82 wrote: »

Well take Michael Jackson, was he a white man trapped in a black mans body apparently, point is how do you know who is genuine and who is just crazy?

Who cares? How does it affect you? If it's what someone wants then that's their choice. It's not for anyone else to decide.

Paulie Gualtieri · 10-04-2012 4:01pm

great bunch of lads , oh no wait....

davet82 · 10-04-2012 4:01pm

The King of Moo wrote: »

Does it matter?

It's their bodies; it's their choice.

yes it does because i fear the unknown and want to react violently to it

krudler · 10-04-2012 4:02pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Only in their heads.
Surgery and hormones completes the drag act costume.

you should probably read up on transgender and what it actually means, its not just guys or girls who change sex for the laugh, its basically a man or woman being born in the wrong body, and have to go through a lot to change that.

CreepingDeath · 10-04-2012 4:02pm

Einhard wrote: »

Thanks for conceding the point. Where else but in the head would one conceive of one's gender?

Perception and reality are different.

Michael Jackson thought he was white and disguised himself to match his warped self image... doesn't mean he was going to get accepted into the Klu Klux Klan.

Einhard wrote: »

Our minds are far more important that our physical forms in determining gender.

Says who?
Gender is based on the XX/XY chromosomes, and more simplistically whether they have male/female genitalia.

Stiffler2 · 10-04-2012 4:02pm

Seachmall wrote: »

I couldn't afford an operation so I just got fat.

Moobs are great, they give me something to do in the shower.

And a related joke,

How do you make 5lbs of fat sexy?
Put a nipple on it.

You keep telling yerself that ! :rolleyes:

krudler · 10-04-2012 4:04pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Says who?
Gender is based on the XX/XY chromosomes, and more simplistically whether they have male/female genitalia.

doctors who know more than you?

davet82 · 10-04-2012 4:06pm

krudler wrote: »

doctors who know more than you?

Thats not what Dr. Nick Riveria says :cool:

midlandsmissus · 10-04-2012 4:06pm

The King of Moo wrote: »

It won't really change things: it's all rigged anyway.

No-one from outside Earth has ever won it.

First thing I actually ever logged in to thank. Brilliant!

The King of Moo · 10-04-2012 4:07pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Perception and reality are different.

Michael Jackson thought he was white and disguised himself to match his wrapped self image... doesn't mean he was going to get accepted into the Klu Klux Klan.

Says who?
Gender is based on the XX/XY chromosomes, and more simplistically whether they have male/female genitalia.

It's generally based on that, but not defined by it. Your genitalia and your chromosomes determine your sex, but not your gender.
Sex is purely biological, but gender is a much more complex identity based on a combination of your psychological and physical characteristics, as well as social constructs about gender norms.
Most of us, if we were honest with ourselves, would admit to having gender identities which comprise characteristics traditionally considered both masculine and feminine.
It's like a spectrum.
It seems entirely plausible that though most people have a gender identity close to the end of the spectrum which would align with their biological identity, a minority of people would identify their mind as being at the opposite end of the spectrum to their body.

Seachmall · 10-04-2012 4:09pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Perception and reality are different.

But you're defining the reality of someone's gender to mean solely their physical self.

To decide their physical body is the most important, or only, factor is arbitrary.

I'm a man because I have a male reproductive system (and a fine one at that) but also because in my head I am a man. If I felt more like a woman it would be easier to change my physical appearance than to try to convince myself of something I probably can't be convinced of.

armitage_skanks · 10-04-2012 4:10pm

I don't have any ill will towards them but I don't consider a transvestite to be an actual women.

Stiffler2 · 10-04-2012 4:12pm

armitage_skanks wrote: »

I don't have any ill will towards them but I don't consider a transvestite to be an actual women.

Ahh Armittage Shanks.

1.2.3.4.5
1.2.3.4.5
spins around, counts toilet bowl letters A.R.M.I.T.T.A.G.E S.H.A.N.K.S

Armittage has anyone ever told you before it's Shanks and not Skanks, although duhh, you already knew that.

such is my obsession with toilet bowls. Read it many a time as I hugged the bowl for comfort

The King of Moo · 10-04-2012 4:12pm

armitage_skanks wrote: »

I don't have any ill will towards them but I don't consider a transvestite to be an actual women.

Even if it's a woman who dresses in men's clothes, like Marlene Dietrich?

Hamhide · 10-04-2012 4:13pm

I'm transgendered and full time felame.i think this is a great idea and its about time.for anyone who thinks its a little odd and trans girls arnt real women,i suggest you goggle image search ''Bailey Jay'' ^_^

The King of Moo · 10-04-2012 4:14pm

Hamhide wrote: »

I'm transgendered and full time felame.i think this is a great idea and its about time.for anyone who thinks its a little odd and trans girls arnt real women,i suggest you goggle image search ''Bailey Jay'' ^_^

If you're Bailey Jay, PM sent.

davet82 · 10-04-2012 4:15pm

armitage_skanks wrote: »

I don't have any ill will towards them but I don't consider a transvestite to be an actual women.

transvestites and transgenders are totally different conditions for want of a better word... i maybe mistaken though?

CreepingDeath · 10-04-2012 4:15pm

The King of Moo wrote: »

It's generally based on that, but not defined by it. Your genitalia and your chromosomes determine your sex, but not your gender.

Then such misalignments are psychological defects and I don't think it's right that the rest of society have to play along with the crazy peoples delusions.

Gummy Panda · 10-04-2012 4:15pm

Hamhide wrote: »

I'm transgendered and full time felame.i think this is a great idea and its about time.for anyone who thinks its a little odd and trans girls arnt real women,i suggest you goggle image search ''Bailey Jay'' ^_^

Remember to turn on safe search first :mad:

Capt'n Midnight · 10-04-2012 4:15pm

But the whole point of 'Miss' is that they are pure and chaste maidens.

or since it's AH are beauty contests still based on sleeping with judges ?

They all have lovely bottoms.

armitage_skanks · 10-04-2012 4:17pm

davet82 wrote: »

transvestites and transgenders are totally different conditions for want of a better word... i maybe mistaken though?

I never heard transgender until a few years ago. People used to always use transvestite for some who got a sex-change operation.

davet82 · 10-04-2012 4:18pm

Hamhide wrote: »

''Bailey Jay''

stop messing with my head

Hamhide · 10-04-2012 4:18pm

But the whole point of 'Miss' is that they are pure and chaste maidens.

or since it's AH are beauty contests still based on sleeping with judges ?

They all have lovely bottoms.[/QUOTE]

I doubt any of the Miss's are pure and chaste.its not compulsory to wear white at these things

krudler · 10-04-2012 4:18pm

armitage_skanks wrote: »

I don't have any ill will towards them but I don't consider a transvestite to be an actual women.

transvestites are cross dressers, transexuals are people who get a sex change, its a different thing

GLaDOS · 10-04-2012 4:19pm

armitage_skanks wrote: »

I don't have any ill will towards them but I don't consider a transvestite to be an actual women.

Being pedantic, but transvestism and transgender are completely different things.

The King of Moo · 10-04-2012 4:20pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Then such misalignments are psychological defects and I don't think it's right that the rest of society have to play along with the crazy peoples delusions.

Assuming they're psychological defects (which I don't agree with), what do you think should happen?

Should such people be forced to live in a body they feel no sense of identity with?
Even though our identity is a combination between our physical and mental selves, our bodies are hugely important to our sense of self. Imagine waking up and looking like a different person.

Why not let them have the operation if it gives them peace of mind and makes them feel at home in their bodies, and doesn't affect other people in any way?

I can understand why people don't consider transgendered people to be of the gender they identify with, but I don't understand why people get so worked up about it.
They're not harming anyone.

Paulie Gualtieri · 10-04-2012 4:21pm

I think this is polital correctness or liberal socialist bullsh1t gone mad,

theres a dog show in England called crufts as you may all know , and the aim of the competition is to give great examples of the breed of dog.

thats all these pagents really are , good looking WOMEN !, ...and the only difference is they talk about world peace, and god and bla bla bla.

no cats in crufts ! no men in Miss Universe!

davet82 · 10-04-2012 4:22pm

krudler wrote: »

transvestites are cross dressers, transexuals are people who get a sex change, its a different thing

thanks for clearing that up, i knew Oscar dela Hoya wasnt gonna chop his sausage off

Hamhide · 10-04-2012 4:23pm

oh you think Baily jay is a mindf*ck? what about ''sarina valentina'' try not to get bains on your keyboard when your head explodes..and dont forget safe search

armitage_skanks · 10-04-2012 4:26pm

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Being pedantic, but transvestism and transgender are completely different things.

Well they're not completely different, surely a transgender is just a transvestite who went all the way and got a sex-change op.

hondasam · 10-04-2012 4:26pm

Paulie Gualtieri wrote: »

.

no cats in crufts ! no men in Miss Universe!

They are not men now. it's a bit different.

CreepingDeath · 10-04-2012 4:27pm

The King of Moo wrote: »

Assuming they're psychological defects (which I don't agree with), what do you think should happen?

Electroshock treatment is really the most cost effective and humane treatment.

The King of Moo wrote: »

Why not let them have the operation if it gives them peace of mind and makes them feel at home in their bodies, and doesn't affect other people in any way?

It does if they expect the State to pay for the purely cosmetic and non health related operation.
If they pay for it themselves, fine, go knock yourself out.

But it doesn't end there.
They push to force the rest of society to accept them through legislation.
Why should we be forced to play along with someone else's delusion?

The King of Moo · 10-04-2012 4:29pm

armitage_skanks wrote: »

Well they're not completely different, surely a transgender is just a transvestite who went all the way and got a sex-change op.

Not necessarily. Some people like to crossdress for sexual kicks, some just like the clothes.

It doesn't necessarily mean they want to change gender.

I think Eddie Izzard, though he doesn't crossdress so much these days, is pretty comfortable being a straight man, and he's often spoken about being a mix of laddish and stereotypically feminine characteristics. Or a "male lesbian," as he's described himself in the past.

He'd make a crap woman anyway: too big.

Originally posted by CreepingDeath
Electroshock treatment is really the most cost effective and humane treatment.

Can you point me to some of the research on that?

Originally posted by CreepingDeath
It does if they expect the State to pay for the purely cosmetic and non health related operation.
If they pay for it themselves, fine, go knock yourself out.

But it doesn't end there.
They push to force the rest of society to accept them through legislation.
Why should we be forced to play along with someone else's delusion?

According to the latest figures I could find, the state paid for 14 gender-reassignment procedures between 2006 and 2011. Not a huge expense, is it, and if it provides major psychological help to people that's great.

Also, why shouldn't we accept transgender people?
What harm will accepting them do?
If a man who had a gender reassignment procedure gets to put her gender down as female on her passport, what's the big deal?
The world will keep on turning and your life won't change in the slightest.

GLaDOS · 10-04-2012 4:31pm

armitage_skanks wrote: »

Well they're not completely different, surely a transgender is just a transvestite who went all the way and got a sex-change op.

Transvestite is essentially a man who likes to dress as a woman, they still see themselves as a man.

Transgender is someone who was born a man but considers themselves a woman.

krudler · 10-04-2012 4:32pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Electroshock treatment is really the most cost effective and humane treatment.

It does if they expect the State to pay for the purely cosmetic and non health related operation.
If they pay for it themselves, fine, go knock yourself out.

But it doesn't end there.
They push to force the rest of society to accept them through legislation.
Why should we be forced to play along with someone else's delusion?

fcuking hell

davet82 · 10-04-2012 4:32pm

armitage_skanks wrote: »

Well they're not completely different, surely a transgender is just a transvestite who went all the way and got a sex-change op.

Tell that to Oscar de la Hoye

Its not about gay or being a woman as far as i can tell but feel free to correct me on this anyone

Hamhide · 10-04-2012 4:32pm

why is CreepingDeath allowed to be on this planet?.. sorry but the biggots belong somewhere else

hondasam · 10-04-2012 4:35pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Electroshock treatment is really the most cost effective and humane treatment.

Why are you so against them? how does it affect your life?

hooradiation · 10-04-2012 4:35pm

Paulie Gualtieri wrote: »

I think this is polital correctness or liberal socialist bullsh1t gone mad,

Of course you do, now shush the adults are talking.

Paulie Gualtieri · 10-04-2012 4:35pm

hondasam wrote: »

They are not men now. it's a bit different.

ok , would you date a transgender ? if yes thats just what your into and if not, then why ?

Morag · 10-04-2012 4:37pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Electroshock treatment is really the most cost effective and humane treatment.

It does if they expect the State to pay for the purely cosmetic and non health related operation.
If they pay for it themselves, fine, go knock yourself out.

But it doesn't end there.
They push to force the rest of society to accept them through legislation.
Why should we be forced to play along with someone else's delusion?

Congratulations

Your post above has just won the most insensitive, ignorant and bigoted post I've seen this year on AH.

Seriously educate yourself about the issues that Transgender people face and stop making such a show of yourself.

davet82 · 10-04-2012 4:37pm

hondasam wrote: »

Why are you so against them? how does it affect your life?

A trip to Thailand no doubt, damn them sneaky he-shes

seamus · 10-04-2012 4:41pm

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Why should we be forced to play along with someone else's delusion?

I think you'll find that in general you spend a lot of your time playing along with people's delusions, if that's what you want to call it. Some delusions are greater than others, but in the interest of having a civil and enjoyable society, we tend to humour other people so long as it doesn't affect us.

And it's the same here. I really fail to see what business it is of anyone's. If someone born a man believes they're a woman, let them at it. Why should you care? You're not being forced to do anything.

"Purely cosmetic" is exceptionally debateable. The suicide rate for people with gender identification issues is high. Way above another other group. Yes, this means that they require a certain amount of working through their issues, but at the same time there is still the issue that they basically hate their body. Dysmorphic issues? Perhaps.

The problem is that the area is still very new in terms of studies. Suicide rates for post-op transgender are also very high, but the operation does help in many cases. So while clearly many transgender have more going on than surgery alone can fix, it's fair to say that the surgery can form a major part of the process of becoming a normally happy person.

Dismissing it as "purely cosmetic" and "indulging delusion" is as backwards and prehistoric as telling someone with depression to "get over it, sure what have you to be depressed about". We don't have anything approaching a good set of facts about the disorder, so making any definitive statements about how to approach the problem, is itself a delusional position.

hondasam · 10-04-2012 4:43pm

Paulie Gualtieri wrote: »

ok , would you date a transgender ? if yes thats just what your into and if not, then why ?

I have to be honest and say no I would not. There would be lots of reasons.

Paulie Gualtieri · 10-04-2012 4:47pm

hooradiation wrote: »

Of course you do, now shush the adults are talking.

Im sorry if I hurt your feelings , your here! your q.... etc .
so please dont get you're frilly knickers in a bunch. x

davet82 · 10-04-2012 4:49pm

i think people can do what makes them happy once its not hurting anybody else, i just didnt think they qualify for miss universe is all (not that it bothered me a whole lot) but alot of the posts here today, well have educated me a bit so i'm abit more open minded about it and a little bit more careful about who i sleep with until i see their birth cert

thanks for the posts

CreepingDeath · 10-04-2012 4:51pm

The King of Moo wrote: »

Can you point me to some of the research on that?

Nope, I threw in a trolling remark, as I was being asked for a solution that doesn't exist, so I gave any old answer.
We're being asked to accept people with psychological defects and pretend they're normal.

Hamhide wrote: »

why is CreepingDeath allowed to be on this planet?.. sorry but the biggots belong somewhere else

Since you're in the dysfunctional minority, the logistics would suggest it's easier for you to move. Maybe Transylvania ?

Sharrow wrote: »

Seriously educate yourself about the issues that Transgender people face and stop making such a show of yourself.

I've heard it all before.
You can thank 1970's drag acts on TV and Brendan O'Carroll's "Mrs Brown" for making the condition associated with humour.

Miss Universe has a little secret...

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