Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Middle Man · 13-02-2017 2:58pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think you are missing what I am saying.

All infrastructure is put out to the private sector for planning and building. It used to be we had Dublin Corpo building houses and roads. CIE building and repairing trains. Now we have those bodies organising the private sector doing these and most other tasks. This inevitably cost substantially more, and allows much less control of projects.

Just look at the scandal that surrounded the West Link bridge - built for IR£10m and sold back to the state for €500 million, having provided a healthy profit and huge traffic jams in the mean time.

That is what privatisation is all about.

There's a very good argument for what you're saying. However, the private sector can have a role in infrastructure delivery, but it must be on public terms, not theirs as was the case with the West Link - competitive practices and tendering (design & build) is key.

Sam Russell · 13-02-2017 3:50pm

Middle Man wrote: »

There's a very good argument for what you're saying. However, the private sector can have a role in infrastructure delivery, but it must be on public terms, not theirs as was the case with the West Link - competitive practices and tendering (design & build) is key.

Well, the public service should have the ability to provide a lot of the services they routinely farm out to the private sector. Doing this farming out is lazy, expensive, and hard to control. For example, the OPW should have in-house skills to carry out archaeological surveys, environmental surveys, and a lot of architectural work. Local authorities should also have such expertise, if only to verify what they are being told, particularly wrt planning. How can a LA verify the costs and facts relating to work they are funding if they have no expertise?

MN shows this very clearly when a redesign is called for to cheapen the plan by shortening the platforms and missing vital stops to save a few bob when the design cost and inflation will eat up any savings, before the forced reinstatement of the original plan will cost so much more in the long term.

Such idiocy is quite obviously coming from lack of expertise.

ricimaki · 13-02-2017 9:40pm

According to this PDF, there could a future extension to link Metro North to Donabate. Its on page 243 (9th page in the PDF), in Objective MT14. The document also mentions DART Underground and Metro West.

Bray Head · 13-02-2017 11:46pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think you are missing what I am saying.

All infrastructure is put out to the private sector for planning and building. It used to be we had Dublin Corpo building houses and roads. CIE building and repairing trains. Now we have those bodies organising the private sector doing these and most other tasks. This inevitably cost substantially more, and allows much less control of projects.

Just look at the scandal that surrounded the West Link bridge - built for IR£10m and sold back to the state for €500 million, having provided a healthy profit and huge traffic jams in the mean time.

That is what privatisation is all about.

I understand how procurement works, both in public and private sector., thank you

My point (again) is that the sign-off for big transport infrastructure is done by ministers and government. By contrast, power infrastructure is done independently by bodies with their own funding stream and legal autonomy from ministers.

For your other point I am at a loss as to how you could think that CIE could build a train more cheaply than purchasing one, or that it could even build one at all. Same goes for local authorities employing staff directly to build houses.

chooochooo · 14-02-2017 12:33am

jd wrote: »

It would have to be the originall design as they don't have planning permission for "Optimised" (spit) Metro North

No. It's the all new cleaner than white New Metro North.

The route they have cooked up this time will not go under O'Connell Bridge but closer to Big Butt Bridge and your favorite station and mine.........tar-AH! Tarah Street.
Then it will go close-ish to Connolly Station before veering left towards Mater. Will come up at DCU and at surface through Ballier, under the Airport and the rest as in the original Metro North.

So Ross was correct. There is little scope for speeding up since ground testing has to be done all over again.
My guess it will be at least 3 global crashes and 2 Armageddons plus Roscommon winning the All Ireland Hurling final 3 years in a row before we even get to the NEW New Metro North.
By which time trains will be obsolete and finally the government can rid itself of these mad calls for gold plated infrastructure fantasies.

lateconnection · 14-02-2017 6:24pm

I'd say we will hear little about MN for the remainder of the year, until the Autumn when it will hopefully announced as being fast tracked in the budget.

No matter what Shane Ross says, at the end of the day a source close to Paschal says original MN is happening, and also it runs right through his constituency. It would be stupid for him not to build original MN.

If it is fast-tracked I predict that:

In 2018, they will hopefully sort out contracts and maybe start enabling works/utility diversions, with full construction starting in 2019.

'Optimised' MN will hopefully be dead next year. Original MN all the way.

MICKEYG · 14-02-2017 7:26pm

Deedsie wrote: »

I'm just worried that public consultation that Minister O'Donohue mentioned might delay it again.

Who is to say that minister will still be in power come,the autumn.
Then the whole circus starts again.

MJohnston · 14-02-2017 7:29pm

MICKEYG wrote: »

Who is to say that minister will still be in power come,the autumn.
Then the whole circus starts again.

Well, arguably, FF are more likely to accelerate Metro North.

Though of course that'll mean we'll have a FF government, so be careful what you wish for I suppose.

LeinsterDub · 14-02-2017 8:56pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Well, arguably, FF are more likely to accelerate Metro North.

Based on what?

MJohnston · 14-02-2017 9:10pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Based on what?

Their Dublin spokesperson has given statements that indicate that in the past:
https://www.fiannafail.ie/scaled-down-metro-north-plan-could-mean-losing-up-to-67-capacity-ff/
https://www.fiannafail.ie/government-must-provide-update-on-status-of-metro-north/

There's also the fact that they were the government that originally started planning for its construction, and that the Luas and DART were built under FF government.

Don't get me wrong, I really don't like FF and will be rather depressed to see them in govt, but at least the potential for MN to be accelerated may be a sort of silver lining to it.

LeinsterDub · 14-02-2017 9:39pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Their Dublin spokesperson has given statements that indicate that in the past:
https://www.fiannafail.ie/scaled-down-metro-north-plan-could-mean-losing-up-to-67-capacity-ff/
https://www.fiannafail.ie/government-must-provide-update-on-status-of-metro-north/

There's also the fact that they were the government that originally started planning for its construction, and that the Luas and DART were built under FF government.

Don't get me wrong, I really don't like FF and will be rather depressed to see them in govt, but at least the potential for MN to be accelerated may be a sort of silver lining to it.

I think you'll find it difficult to find a party who doesn't pay lip service to MN.

2 disconnected Luas lines and the eletricifican of an exciting rail line. Not much to write home about after being in power for the majority of the last 80 years

MJohnston · 14-02-2017 9:45pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I think you'll find it difficult to find a party who doesn't pay lip service to MN.

2 disconnected Luas lines and the eletricifican of an exciting rail line. Not much to write home about after being in power for the majority of the last 80 years

Ok, you think FF aren't interested in MN then?

LeinsterDub · 14-02-2017 9:56pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Ok, you think FF aren't interested in MN then?

Same level of interest as everyone else. We'll get around to it eventually but sure Donegal needs its Luas and Inis Mór needed an airport

MJohnston · 14-02-2017 10:06pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Same level of interest as everyone else. We'll get around to it eventually but sure Donegal needs its Luas and Inis Mór needed an airport

Well, I have to disagree. I think FF are more likely to spend on infrastructure than Fine Gael (I'm leaving out the other parties, because it's sadly realistic about who is likely to be in government).

LeinsterDub · 14-02-2017 10:08pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Well, I have to disagree. I think FF are more likely to spend on infrastructure than Fine Gael (I'm leaving out the other parties, because it's sadly realistic about who is likely to be in government).

The evidence doesn't bear that up. At least not when it comes to public transport infrastructure.

MJohnston · 14-02-2017 10:14pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The evidence doesn't bear that up. At least not when it comes to public transport infrastructure.

Sorry, but the evidence does. What PT infrastructure have FG spent on? And not stuff that was already in progress when they took power.

LeinsterDub · 14-02-2017 10:26pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Sorry, but the evidence does. What PT infrastructure have FG spent on? And not stuff that was already in progress when they took power.

In fairness to FG they are generally left cleaning up after FF and for the record I'm not a fan of either party

MJohnston · 14-02-2017 10:41pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In fairness to FG they are generally left cleaning up after FF and for the record I'm not a fan of either party

As I said, I dislike both parties, but objectively speaking I think we're simply more likely to see Metro North built earlier under FF than FG (I'll still be voting Social Democrats myself should we have an election this year).

Grandeeod · 14-02-2017 11:05pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In fairness to FG they are generally left cleaning up after FF and for the record I'm not a fan of either party

A key point and I'm not a fan of either.

Bray Head · 15-02-2017 11:28am

The political persuasion of the incumbent Minister for Transport, or even the complexion of the government does not matter much.

murphaph · 15-02-2017 1:06pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I think you'll find it difficult to find a party who doesn't pay lip service to MN.

2 disconnected Luas lines and the eletricifican of an exciting rail line. Not much to write home about after being in power for the majority of the last 80 years

...and FF were in power when the Harcourt line was closed in the first place, so they get no points for the Green Line

expectationlost · 15-02-2017 11:21pm

Alan Farrell in the media suggesting Metro North could be fast tracked, with the help of potential capital review money, could it? http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/time-for-ross-to-get-on-board-and-deliver-on-metro-35428071.html listened to his interview on Near FM http://nearfm.ie/podcast/?p=20896 dont think Alan Farrell explains how.

marno21 · 16-02-2017 12:26am

expectationlost wrote: »

Alan Farrell in the media suggesting Metro North could be fast tracked, with the help of potential capital review money, could it? http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/time-for-ross-to-get-on-board-and-deliver-on-metro-35428071.html listened to his interview on Near FM http://nearfm.ie/podcast/?p=20896 dont think Alan Farrell explains how.

It doesn't need any fast tracking. All they need to do is stop pumping money into the new rubbish Metro and just proceed with the old one. The amount of money being wasted on "new Metro North" is obscene. Gold plated my ****

ringostare · 16-02-2017 7:55am

expectationlost wrote: »

Alan Farrell in the media suggesting Metro North could be fast tracked, with the help of potential capital review money, could it? http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/time-for-ross-to-get-on-board-and-deliver-on-metro-35428071.html listened to his interview on Near FM http://nearfm.ie/podcast/?p=20896 dont think Alan Farrell explains how.

Clueless waffle. Farrell is referring to 'optimized' metro north. He wants that fast tracked. But as it's following a new underground route such 'fast tracking' is not really possible, given all the new consultations, ground investigations.

loyatemu · 16-02-2017 10:34am

one way or another we're getting a new Taoiseach shortly, so I doubt any major decisions are imminent.

jd · 16-02-2017 11:58am

ringostare wrote: »

Clueless waffle. Farrell is referring to 'optimized' metro north. He wants that fast tracked. But as it's following a new underground route such 'fast tracking' is not really possible, given all the new consultations, ground investigations.

He also thinks planning permission expired on the original Metro Moth route

https://twitter.com/highnellybike/status/832003188014342144

https://twitter.com/highnellybike/status/832006241673166850

https://twitter.com/highnellybike/status/832007488824295424

ringostare · 16-02-2017 12:50pm

I see Paddy Power has the bould Farrell at 100 to 1 on for the gold medal at the Eejit Olympics.

murphaph · 16-02-2017 12:52pm

Jaysus, so ignorant of facts he should be in possession of.

jd · 16-02-2017 1:13pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Next Minister for Transport anyone?

I think the current Minister mixes up the NTA and the NTMA!

https://twitter.com/highnellybike/status/830028705451933696

KCAccidental · 17-02-2017 12:23am

idiocy in writing for all to see!

Idbatterim · 17-02-2017 4:39pm

I read an article in the Irish times yesterday, about the cost increase for the new childrens hospital. They said construction inflation is 9%. I normally vote FG, I am happy to not vote for them or anyone, purely on the incompetence of this sham (MN and DU)

idiocy in writing for all to see!

I just saw your post now, thats enough for me! thanks for putting it up!

several hundred million for farcial BRT routes that are proceeding and DU and MN, have been axed for joke comparisons to "save" peanuts for inferior schemes, not too mention the 5 year delay? Allegedly this is the same party who are attempting to solve the housing crisis, north county dublin, huge swathes are undeveloped and will be served by metro north. The construction will be worths tens of billions likely and there is a proposal to cut platfroms lenth to save 80,000,000?!

They arent even worth communicating with anymore, the politicans I mean, morons isnt even the word! This is the calibre of people that are being elected to run our country, is it a LOL or cry in the corner moment?

In relation to the CIE basked case, which couldnt even afford to buy a site to protect DU, that is now at the centre of controversy. I read this yesterday!!! They wish to go ahead with some joke of a development on serious prime land, take a read about the "scale" or lack of it! Im going to look into it, in more details now. They should go with a new planning application for something far more substantial IMO...

http://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/cie-to-press-ahead-with-major-ifsc-development-35454155.html

LeinsterDub · 17-02-2017 6:41pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

idiocy in writing for all to see!

Jasus he was so embarrassed by his comment he's has to resort to calling for Enda's head to distract from the top whole debacle

Grandeeod · 17-02-2017 11:53pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I read an article in the Irish times yesterday, about the cost increase for the new childrens hospital. They said construction inflation is 9%. I normally vote FG, I am happy to not vote for them or anyone, purely on the incompetence of this sham (MN and DU)

I just saw your post now, thats enough for me! thanks for putting it up!

several hundred million for farcial BRT routes that are proceeding and DU and MN, have been axed for joke comparisons to "save" peanuts for inferior schemes, not too mention the 5 year delay? Allegedly this is the same party who are attempting to solve the housing crisis, north county dublin, huge swathes are undeveloped and will be served by metro north. The construction will be worths tens of billions likely and there is a proposal to cut platfroms lenth to save 80,000,000?!

They arent even worth communicating with anymore, the politicans I mean, morons isnt even the word! This is the calibre of people that are being elected to run our country, is it a LOL or cry in the corner moment?

In relation to the CIE basked case, which couldnt even afford to buy a site to protect DU, that is now at the centre of controversy. I read this yesterday!!! They wish to go ahead with some joke of a development on serious prime land, take a read about the "scale" or lack of it! Im going to look into it, in more details now. They should go with a new planning application for something far more substantial IMO...

http://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/cie-to-press-ahead-with-major-ifsc-development-35454155.html

Johnny Ronan in the mix. Nothing changes and nothing will, unless seriously challenged.

Peregrine · 17-02-2017 11:59pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Johnny Ronan in the mix. Nothing changes and nothing will, unless seriously challenged.

I don't think Ronan is involved in the Connolly one. He's involved in the Tara Street proposal (which is the sort of size CIE should be aiming for beside Connolly).

Having said that, we've yet to see Ronan's plans for Tara Street and it's been a long while.

Grandeeod · 18-02-2017 12:12am

Peregrine wrote: »

I don't think Ronan is involved in the Connolly one. He's involved in the Tara Street proposal (which is the sort of size CIE should be aiming for beside Connolly).

Having said that, we've yet to see Ronan's plans for Tara Street and it's been a long while.

He's in the mix and back in Spencer Dock for sure. Never underestimate his kind in the destruction of rail infrastructure in association with CIE. What amazes me is, not so long ago we had a book called "Chaos at the crossroads" by Frank McDonald and a certain person called James Nix. Both these dudes can be linked to Treasury Holdings, a Ronan lead company that assisted CIE in destroying railway infrastructure in the interest of property speculation.

strassenwo!f · 18-02-2017 10:34am

Who produced that picture of the DART at an underground Heuston station in the post by jd above?

Are they planning to change the DART to a third rail system?

Sam Russell · 18-02-2017 11:45am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Who produced that picture of the DART at an underground Heuston station in the post by jd above?

Are they planning to change the DART to a third rail system?

No, I believe the Dart Underground will be run totally on hot air.

strassenwo!f · 19-02-2017 1:16am

Yes, very witty, Sam, I'm sure.

That picture of the DART train serving an underground station showed a train with no pantograph, and no overhead wires serving it with electricity. I'm just curious where such a picture might have emerged from.

Sam Russell · 19-02-2017 12:06pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, very witty, Sam, I'm sure.

That picture of the DART train serving an underground station showed a train with no pantograph, and no overhead wires serving it with electricity. I'm just curious where such a picture might have emerged from.

Like much to do with DU and MN, it was made up.

murphaph · 20-02-2017 11:54am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, very witty, Sam, I'm sure.

That picture of the DART train serving an underground station showed a train with no pantograph, and no overhead wires serving it with electricity. I'm just curious where such a picture might have emerged from.

Picture the scene. You're a graphic designer, tasked with rehashing the DRRTS, Interconnector, Dart Underground or whatever it's called in the latest press release. You get bored photoshopping the same old overhead catenary in, day in day out (year on year out more like) so you decide to "mix it up a little" with a fetching third rail. You are told by the engineer in charge of pdfs that you can't use third rail due to safety regulations in force nowadays but then the whole team has a good chuckle when the engineer in charge of new slogans reminds everyone that none of it will ever be built anyway and that everyone should get back to work as there's a deadline for the new brochure coming up (general election on the horizon).

Consonata · 22-02-2017 2:36pm

Would it be too hopeful to expect Metro North be done by 2026?

Idbatterim · 22-02-2017 2:37pm

Surely around the airport etc, tunnelling would be 24/7?

jamo2oo9 · 22-02-2017 4:03pm

Consonata wrote: »

Would it be too hopeful to expect Metro North be done by 2026?

I would highly doubt it if they even managed to get it going that early. If the ground was broken right now, having it open by 2027 would be rather hopeful. We aren't exactly known for efficiency to anything really.

marno21 · 22-02-2017 4:07pm

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

I would highly doubt it if they even managed to get it going that early. If the ground was broken right now, having it open by 2027 would be rather hopeful. We aren't exactly known for efficiency to anything really.

Here New Metro North is scheduled to begin in 2021 and finish in 2026/7. If proper Metro North started in 2018 it would comfortably be open for 2024/5 let alone 2026.

wakka12 · 22-02-2017 4:11pm

Adding a few luas stops to an existing line took four years to do. I highly doubt a massive tunnelling project beneath the entire city would be possible in 6 then

Consonata · 22-02-2017 5:03pm

marno21 wrote: »

Here New Metro North is scheduled to begin in 2021 and finish in 2026/7. If proper Metro North started in 2018 it would comfortably be open for 2024/5 let alone 2026.

I would love that to be the case, but given the political instability and strikes, I doubt we seen ground broken in 2018.

Peregrine · 22-02-2017 5:23pm

wakka12 wrote: »

Adding a few luas stops to an existing line took four years to do. I highly doubt a massive tunnelling project beneath the entire city would be possible in 6 then

Building a tram line right through the middle of a city is an extremely disruptive and time-consuming project. Calling it "adding a few stops" is ridiculous.

Cross City and MN are two completely different projects using completely different methods. There's very little to be learned from comparing the two.

If a government gives the go ahead and the money is there, it can be done within the schedule proposed.

Consonata · 22-02-2017 5:42pm

Peregrine wrote: »

Building a tram line right through the middle of a city is an extremely disruptive and time-consuming project. Calling it "adding a few stops" is ridiculous.

Cross City and MN are two completely different projects using completely different methods. There's very little to be learned from comparing the two.

If a government gives the go ahead and the money is there, it can be done within the schedule proposed.

Agreed, the Port Tunnel would be a more apt comparison than the BXD line, and even then there are some key differences.

MJohnston · 22-02-2017 7:29pm

wakka12 wrote: »

Adding a few luas stops to an existing line took four years to do. I highly doubt a massive tunnelling project beneath the entire city would be possible in 6 then

Luas Cross City, barring any very last minute delays at this point, is almost exactly on original schedule, maybe even a little bit ahead. Metro North would probably be an easier process, to be honest, although a good big larger in scope.

Consonata · 22-02-2017 8:00pm

If I thought Ross had a spine, I would've said we could see work begin on MN in 2018, but I'd imagine there will be a cabinet reshuffle before then.

Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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