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Where'd all the old trains go?

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  • 14-08-2012 1:45pm
    #1
    gawker
    Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭


    Excuse my ignorance, but when did all the older (orange!) trains go? I’ve been living abroad for a few years and am commuting by rail now I’m home. Every train bar the Cork service now seems to have the same rolling stock. Were the trains that would have been in use in 2008/2009 really all that old that they had to be retired?

    The new trains are fine and Wifi is a great addition, but I miss the cosiness of some of the older trains. Also, the new trains have less space for standing so on commuter routes it's a right pain if you don't get a seat. DMUs are just not as exciting, but I guess save a lot of money?

    A little crash course on what happened would be much appreciated. :)


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    #2
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    The MkIIIs were prematurely retired and are now to be found dumped stored at Waterford http://www.flickr.com/photos/rowan826/3514380549/in/set-72157617587113080, Dundalk and the North Wall.


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    #3
    gawker
    Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭gawker


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    The MkIIIs were prematurely retired and are now to be found dumped stored at Waterford http://www.flickr.com/photos/rowan826/3514380549/in/set-72157617587113080, Dundalk and the North Wall.

    That's a pity. Why the premature retirement? It's not like Irish Rail / CIE ever had lots of money to throw around :confused:

    I spent time living in Germany recently and they seemed happy enough with older trains being renovated and kept in service.


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    #4
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    gawker wrote: »
    That's a pity. Why the premature retirement? It's not like Irish Rail / CIE ever had lots of money to throw around :confused:

    I spent time living in Germany recently and they seemed happy enough with older trains being renovated and kept in service.

    Maintainance and periodic refurbs were never Irish Rail's strong point. The mkIII's are too far gone now to do anything with them.


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    #5
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    gawker wrote: »
    That's a pity. Why the premature retirement? It's not like Irish Rail / CIE ever had lots of money to throw around :confused:

    I spent time living in Germany recently and they seemed happy enough with older trains being renovated and kept in service.
    gawker

    the 3s needed some work to meet modern requirements, starting with retention tanks for the toilets. It's all been discussed in other threads. If the tiger was still roaring there might have been scope to do it but the recession has yanked the rug out from under passenger demand, and unlike Germany/UK there is no facility in Ireland to do the works so it can't even be done as a stimulus project. Accordingly, the 3s will be scrapped - a tender has been published to have it done.


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    #6
    Julius Seizure
    Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭Julius Seizure


    Speaking of the toilets is it true it was just dumped? I remember my Mum never letting me go to the toilet in a station but I thought it was a myth...


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    #7
    gawker
    Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭gawker


    Dubhaltach wrote: »
    Speaking of the toilets is it true it was just dumped? I remember my Mum never letting me go to the toilet in a station but I thought it was a myth...

    I was just wondering the same thing. The flushing noise used to kinda scare me!


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    #8
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    A lot of older continental trains have a hole in the bottom of the toilet and when you flush you can see the tracks whizzing past!

    I suspect the main reason for the early retirement of the MK3 fleet was that they were very difficult to adapt to make them disability-access compatible.
    That and they wanted to move away from locomotive haulage on most lines due to passenger loads being very variable.


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    #9
    Julius Seizure
    Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭Julius Seizure


    gawker wrote: »
    I was just wondering the same thing. The flushing noise used to kinda scare me!

    It's not nearly as bad as ne ones on the 22's, thye're like ferry and plane ones... I think I saw someone here say they almost lost a shoe once ;)


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    #10
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    The new Cork Dublin fleet's toilets also do a lot of talking!

    You get a verbal warning to ensure you lock the door :D

    Otherwise, you risk having the entire wall of the toilet slide away while you're sitting on the loo.


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    #11
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    Solair wrote: »
    The new Cork Dublin fleet's toilets also do a lot of talking!

    You get a verbal warning to ensure you lock the door :D

    Otherwise, you risk having the entire wall of the toilet slide away while you're sitting on the loo.

    In spite of the chatting, folks STILL won't take heed and lock the door, caught a few ppl with their *ahem* pants down.


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    #12
    Julius Seizure
    Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭Julius Seizure


    Solair wrote: »
    The new Cork Dublin fleet's toilets also do a lot of talking!

    You get a verbal warning to ensure you lock the door :D

    Otherwise, you risk having the entire wall of the toilet slide away while you're sitting on the loo.

    It's like that on the 22's aswell :D They don't give you a lot of time. Much preferred the prompts on the deDietreich's. Ditto for the Smoking Alarm bug :mad:


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    #13
    CaptainSkidmark
    Registered Users Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭CaptainSkidmark


    Solair wrote: »
    A lot of older continental trains have a hole in the bottom of the toilet and when you flush you can see the tracks whizzing past!

    I suspect the main reason for the early retirement of the MK3 fleet was that they were very difficult to adapt to make them disability-access compatible.
    That and they wanted to move away from locomotive haulage on most lines due to passenger loads being very variable.

    LOL

    I see that in holland on the double deckers:D


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    #14
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    gawker wrote: »
    Why the premature retirement?
    because IE think rolling stock are toys that they can throw away when their board of them or when things get a little difficult.
    gawker wrote: »
    It's not like Irish Rail / CIE ever had lots of money to throw around
    no but what they were given they wasted to an extent.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #15
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Solair wrote: »
    I suspect the main reason for the early retirement of the MK3 fleet was that they were very difficult to adapt to make them disability-access compatible.
    ah begarra begosh how did they manage? surely disabled people were able to use the trains using the mark 3 carriges? wouldn't say it was anything to do with disabled access.
    Solair wrote: »
    they wanted to move away from locomotive haulage on most lines due to passenger loads being very variable.
    and now we have 3 car sets on some routes where they can't cope with the demand,
    and some routes where on certain services a 6 car may be required but it can't operate due to platform lengths.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #16
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    In spite of the chatting, folks STILL won't take heed and lock the door, caught a few ppl with their *ahem* pants down.
    I don't know why you should have to lock the door after you close it. Who, aside maybe from George Michael, would want to be in an unlocked toilet on a train?


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    #17
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    dowlingm wrote: »
    unlike Germany/UK there is no facility in Ireland to do the works
    Ironic considering about 80 or so of the Mark 3's were actually built in Inchicore.


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    #18
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Ironic considering about 80 or so of the Mark 3's were actually built in Inchicore.
    yeah, isn't it just. such facilities were broke up/demolished for whatever reason. ideally the trains we buy would be built and refurbished in this country but i suppose the fact they aren't is (progress)

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Ironic considering about 80 or so of the Mark 3's were actually built in Inchicore.

    The jigs used to build the Mark 3s were buried in Inchicore and covered in concrete. Nobody seems to know why, but I'd suspect that it was because BREL only licensed CIÉ to build a certain number of coaches.


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    #20
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Karsini wrote: »
    The jigs used to build the Mark 3s were buried in Inchicore and covered in concrete. Nobody seems to know why, but I'd suspect that it was because BREL only licensed CIÉ to build a certain number of coaches.

    only in ireland would such a thing happen. BRL no longer exists so time to exume them. their should be a museeme dedicated to inchicore works and its history, ireland has such a fascinating transport history which people should be able to see however unless your in the know as to where various exibits and working examples are its not realy accessible.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #21
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    end of the road wrote: »
    only in ireland would such a thing happen. BRL no longer exists so time to exume them. their should be a museeme dedicated to inchicore works and its history, ireland has such a fascinating transport history which people should be able to see however unless your in the know as to where various exibits and working examples are its not realy accessible.

    Part, at least, of Inchicore Works should be turned into a National Railway Museum but this is Ireland so it won't happen. There have been plenty of other threads on this already and it's pointless discussing it further...but at least CIE/IE have a Railway Heritage Priest Officer. :rolleyes:

    http://www.cie.ie/our_services/heritage.asp#collectors


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    #22
    CaptainFreedom
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭CaptainFreedom


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Part, at least, of Inchicore Works should be turned into a National Railway Museum but this is Ireland so it won't happen. There have been plenty of other threads on this already and it's pointless discussing it further...but at least CIE/IE have a Railway Heritage Priest Officer. :rolleyes:

    http://www.cie.ie/our_services/heritage.asp#collectors

    Another one of your friends then?


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    #23
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    end of the road wrote: »
    Karsini wrote: »
    The jigs used to build the Mark 3s were buried in Inchicore and covered in concrete. Nobody seems to know why, but I'd suspect that it was because BREL only licensed CIÉ to build a certain number of coaches.

    only in ireland would such a thing happen. BRL no longer exists so time to exume them. their should be a museeme dedicated to inchicore works and its history, ireland has such a fascinating transport history which people should be able to see however unless your in the know as to where various exibits and working examples are its not realy accessible.

    BREL's technology patents do exist, albeit as part of a different company. It was bought Adtranz and merged into Bombardier.

    You have to remember that in the days when CIE built MK3 coaches international trade and state contracts were very different.
    Governments would demand that subsidiaries were setup and goods manufactured locally by the foreign suppliers.

    The same thing happened in areas like telecoms where Alcatel actually made Telecom Éireann exchanges in Bandon and Ericsson made them in Athlone.

    Joint-venture operations with state bodies in foreign markets were the done thing in those days if you wanted to get your product in. Infrastructure suppliers also relied on state export guarantees, and governments would actively lobby other governments to get their 'national champion' company in on state-run contracts.

    All that stuff is TOTALLY gone nowadays.

    There was no European single market (or, rather it was highly limited in the early 80s) and no globalisation to the extent we have it now.

    These days all of that kind of work is consolidated into large companies. All of the smaller outfits including BREL and the crowd that built the DART are gone. De Deitrich no longer has a transit division either.

    Europe pretty much has a handful of major transit equipment makers these days.

    There's really no way CIE could have realistically retained manufacturing facilities. They'd no technology to export, no design teams or serious R&D etc. The MK3 operation was just an licensed assembly operation on behalf of BREL.

    Their own local internal market is also tiny.

    If Inchicore Works had developed some interesting technology and products in its own right in the 50s, 60s and 70s then it could have been a European player.

    However, it wasn't easy for a small player to break-in to a market that until very recently was run by state-owned monopolies who only purchased from their 'national champion' manufactures. That coupled with the lack of any history of serious mechanical engineering and heavy machinery manufacturing in the Republic of Ireland would have made it a very unlikely prospect.

    (I know, before anyone says it, there was some in Cork in terms of ship-building, but nothing of any huge scale other than Ford, but again that had no R&D)


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    #24
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    SNCF/France still wants to behave as if there were no single market, given the messing about Eurotunnel being able to buy from Siemens which they finally had to give up on.

    end of the road - while the less abled might have been able to "manage" before often that took the form of putting people on the guards van.

    http://www.flac.ie/download/pdf/210509_hennessey_v_network_cateringiarnrod_eireann.pdf

    That won't do any more, thus Chiltern spending a wodge of cash adjusting Mark 3 ends to make entrances and toilets adhere to the relevant standard (Persons with Reduced Mobility TSI). Generally speaking you wouldn't have to adjust all of the entrances and toilets but enough that you could reasonably accommodate all of the passengers who could be shown to travel on a given day. In Chiltern's case that appears to be two out of four standard class Mark 3s per rake.


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    #25
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    That case certainly doesn't make for pleasant reading!

    The MK3s were an early 1970s design, even if the Irish Rail fleet was built later. Their facilities on-board were pretty basic in terms of accessibility.

    Even getting a buggy on board wasn't easy.

    Incidentally, Translink also got rid of their Class 450 trains which are also basically Mark 3 coaches in a DMU configuration. They'd similar accessibility issues on-board.

    They date from the mid to late 80s and are deemed to be life-expired.


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    #26
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    accessibility - the ultimate excuse to bin any old stock or building someone doesn't want. Never mind that 99% of people can access it just fine, we'll always aim to cater for that 1% at massively inflated cost to everyone else :rolleyes:


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    #27
    kc56
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭kc56


    In the UK once the IEP (Intercity Express Programme) starts delivering new trains, it is planned to withdraw the HSTs and MK3s.

    If the MkIII as so desirable and trains are in short supply in the UK, how is it that no UK operator expressed sufficient interest in IE's sets?


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    #28
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    kc56 wrote: »
    In the UK once the IEP (Intercity Express Programme) starts delivering new trains, it is planned to withdraw the HSTs and MK3s.

    If the MkIII as so desirable and trains are in short supply in the UK, how is it that no UK operator expressed sufficient interest in IE's sets?

    because they're in shite order and need lots of work, not to mention re-gauging


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    #29
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    because they're in shite order and need lots of work, not to mention re-gauging

    Coz they're waiting for this magic HST2 ... which will come along sometime before the StarTrek transporter becomes the norm for public transport!

    but, also because they're the wrong gauge, have the wrong electrics on board, have no power cars and are restricted to less than 125mph and are setup for locomotive hauling.


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    #30
    Captain Chaos
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    Solair wrote: »
    That case certainly doesn't make for pleasant reading!

    The MK3s were an early 1970s design, even if the Irish Rail fleet was built later. Their facilities on-board were pretty basic in terms of accessibility.

    Even getting a buggy on board wasn't easy.

    Incidentally, Translink also got rid of their Class 450 trains which are also basically Mark 3 coaches in a DMU configuration. They'd similar accessibility issues on-board.

    They date from the mid to late 80s and are deemed to be life-expired.

    The 450s are just Mk3 shells on Mk1 underframes with outdated power from retired 70 class DMUs.

    The Mk3s in the UK have had great refurb mods based on the BREL Mk4s.

    The Mk3s now running in the UK are better than our CAF Mk4s. They have automatic plug doors that are wider for wheelchairs and the corridors have been widened too. All the latest mod cons fitted and run every day at 125mph. The Mk3s are good till 2020-25.

    IE ran to CAF to get push pull Mk4s for 125mph running when our existing Mk3s could do it if we had any decent motive power on hand and with better ride quality.

    We have LHB DARTs built around the same time as our Mk3s and they will still be going to 2020 after the refurb they went through. They are based on a 1970s design like the Mk3s.

    What IE didn't want to do anymore was to have locos needing shunt releases and run arounds. Yes they had the 5 Mk3 DVTs but they had limitations with their small under floor gennys limiting train lengths. If IE would have top and tailed the Mk3s like what is done in the UK with the extra 201s they could have solved that. Or the top and tail power car option they are looking into to get the Mk4 sets to 125mph after the track upgrades.

    It's all water under the bridge at this stage but the point is the Mk3s that have been rotting away for the past 2-3 years now have only worked half their useful life. IE let them go to crap in the end like they do all their stock that is to be replaced so no one else can use it.


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    #31
    Captain Chaos
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    i not to mention
    re-gauging

    All they have to do is swap out the bogies on them. I'm sure there are a load of surplus Mk3 bogies in the UK. It's not like they are a custom build jobbie. Sure NIR sold some of their old Mk2Bs back to the UK where they were working charter trains for a few years.

    IE bought a set of air braked Mk2s in the late '90s when they were stuck for rolling stock. They didn't last very long because of the heavy use they had in the UK and had alot of corrosion on the body work.

    If off the shelf stock can be bought and sold like that then re gauging is not an issue at all.


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