Is Irish a dead language?

didn't get a chance to read the thing, but we were talking about this only today, apart from the fact that it should be known (although the teaching is crap, i studied irish since i was five, took up german five months before the leaving and got two grades higher in german), the lack of a strong knowledge of the fundamentals of irish really inhibits us learning other languages, if you can't even speak your own language your going to find it harder to succesfully take up a different language. also, so many irish people are like it's impractical to learn more languages, it's such a cop out, i'm visiting my brother in an interenational college, and the average number of languages spoken FLUENTLY in three, and in the last day, i've met two people two spoke 7 languages fluently. and i can hardly speak bloody english. we need to reevaluate all this, begining with reevaluating how important irish is to our culture, heritage, and ability to progress, and that is paramount.

/rant

The Irish language isn't dead. It's just not as prevelvant in society as it should be, which is largely attributed to the poor curriculum in school. Lack of fluent speakers will obviously impact it's visibility in society.

I think they need to ditch the written aspects of it and focus on teaching people to speak it. Primary school is the first and biggest in a serious of **** ups in how it's taught. Children should leave primary school fluent. So much time is spent on the language in both primary and secondary and as a nation we've feck all to show for the investment.

People need to lose the patriotic hard on they get when it comes to Irish and treat it as you would German or Spanish. That sense of misguided patriotism is an obstacle to reforming the language.

I don't think every primary school should be teaching in Irish. I think there should be more Irish spoken on a day to day basis but I don't think it should be to the exclusion of English which is our primary language.

It's not just up to schools. Parents need to encourage the speaking of Irish in the homes too.

MysticalRain wrote: »

The funny little irony here is that those who love the language the most have done more to destroy the language than anybody else with their misguided attempts to shove the language down people's throats.

And they are very militant, blacking out road signs, arbitrarily changing names, giving children in Gael Scoilanna Irish names, and not allowing them to use the names their parents gave them and their LEGAL names as on their birth certs.

gbee wrote: »

And they are very militant, blacking out road signs, arbitrarily changing names, giving children in Gael Scoilanna Irish names, and not allowing them to use the names their parents gave them and their LEGAL names as on their birth certs.

Jesus christ. :rolleyes:

Irish language enthusiasts by large, are not militant. What names exactly are they arbitrarily changing?

I think you'll find that children are giving Irish names in not only Gaelscoileanna. I attended a national school, and our register was called in Irish. Moreover, no teacher is stopping anyone from using their English name. The custom of using Irish names is purely symbolic, and not the fascist as you would have us believe.

What a load of utter nonsense.

paky wrote: »

the irish language is as dead as it will ever be. just because people speak it in school doesnt mean its alive. its like having a dead person on a life support machine :pac:

• It is not dead.
• No matter how many times you say that it's dead, it will not make it anymore true.
• it is spoken outside of school. I myself speak Irish daily.

Do you actually know what language death is?

It isn't dead. Any let's stop this bollocks about Irish language zealots and their confederates in the public sector and government calling the shots as far as language sustainability is concerned - they're not, so let's not give them the impression they are.

In fact there is no such thing as a single Irish language anyway, and we're seeing the emergences of a real Pidgin amongst urban speakers - they are the ones driving the language forward - not the Eamon O'Cuiv's of the world. Forget about the Gaelteacht (total pop 90K) as a viable source for a living language:

"The number of Irish speakers in Ireland is increasing, according to all census and survey data, and yet the number of Gaeltacht speakers is falling."


You can read more here: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0116/1224262447899.html

"Urban Irish doesn’t seem to be actually Anglicising, but it is different, particularly in the area of grammar. Some experts might be tempted to call this new entity a Pidgin. Although the term has negative connotations, there is some justification for it. A Pidgin is a relatively unstable language with simplified pronunciation and grammar, created on the fly for purposes of practical communication. By definition, it has no native speakers. Should the Pidgin persist into another generation and further, it gains native speakers, becomes known as a Creole, and develops the hallmarks of an independent language, including a stable grammar."

Hardly dead. More like still evolving. So....

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

As someone who has recently finished school I can attest to this. These days Irish in secondary schools literally consists of being handed reams of notes on ridiculous poems and literally learning off answers. Ditto with topics for essays. I was hopeless with Irish for years and for my JC I wrote pages of answers that I learnt off by heart without understanding them. I got a B.

I largely agree with your point about the way Irish is taught, however I think the problem is with the way every subject is taught. It's been a while since my leaving but I can remember just learning off reams of info for every subject rather than actually studying a subject in the traditional sense.

I don't think that Irish is a dead language yet but I disagree completely with the way it is taught in schools, particularly at primary level. First, you only need to have a C3 in honours Irish in the leaving cert to become a primary school teacher. No offence, but that is a very low quality knowledge of the language, given the amount of time dedicated to teaching irish in primary schools, and that it is a language you have spent 14 years learning.

Secondly, when you do a B.Ed you have no obligation to take Irish as a degree subject. If the department of education want the language to survive in schools, then all teachers simply need to have better than a C3 in their leaving cert and perhaps make it compulsory to study Irish as a subject, at least for the first year of the course. Before I am attacked for insulting primary school teachers and their level of Irish, I'm speaking from my own experience in school with year after year of mediocre Irish teaching, and from my own friends who are currently studying to be primary teachers; most of their Irish is either basic, or that disgusting new "i spent five summers in the gaeltacht therefore I am fluent" brand of pidgin Irish. You know the "tá mé like CHOMH tuirseach..o mo dhia" or awful direct translation with no knowledge of grammar! I never went to the gaeltacht and I got an A1 in honours Irish for my LC so I think we need to stop sending droves of young people there every summer if thats the kind of way they are learning to speak..! :rolleyes:

I think the best solution for teaching Irish in primary schools is to have teachers in every primary school who teach irish only, like the way French or Spanish etc is taught in secondary school. That way, they can take every class in the school for a certain amount of time each day and teach them at a level appropriate to their age, in the correct manner a language should be taught; i.e by concentrating solely on the oral language with the lower school, and only begin the written language when the students have adequete command of the spoken language. It always astounds me when children have to write sentences or something in Irish, or do weird workbooks when they cant actually speak the language properly. You wouldn't expect a toddler learning English to be able to write, so I don't see why a primary school child learning irish should have to do written work in the language either. It makes no sense to me that the mark for the oral in the LC is going up to 40%, when theres no corresponding change at primary level to improve students oral Irish.

At secondary level, the problems of not spending enough time mastering the spoken language manifest because the course becomes literature heavy, which means that students have to spend massive amounts of time learning, while also trying to get their spoken irish up to scratch. In my opinion, the junior cert should have an oral exam, its madness that you learn the language for 14 years and the first time you are examined on the actual spoken language is the final year of study. If students can take an oral exam after 5 or 6 years of French then I don't see why we need to wait so long about Irish, being our native language and all...!

apologies about the length of this but I think before we declare Irish dead or worse, naively believe that it is in good health ("sure its being taught in the schools") we need to look more carefully at the way children are actually learning the language, and if they are learning in the best possible way.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Is that because you don't have an answer?

The answer was in the statement. It is symbolic. A gesture. Nothing more. And certainly not a fascist movement to rid someone of their English name.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That figure seems very large. Do you have a source for it?

How exactly is 100,000 large when the gaeltacht population alone is over 91,000. 100,000 weekly speakers of Irish was very conservative. I would estimate it to be 150,000. But 100,000 is a nice conservative value - that not even you can dispute (although, I'm sure you'll try).

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Regardless even if it is correct it doesn't change the fact it is a brain dead language. No dead but being kept alive by various state backed agencies such as Foinse na gaeilge.

How can a language be brain-dead? It is not a living entity. It is a medium for communication. Of course it has state support. All languages around the world have state support. What is your point?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Most governments don't have to openly support their language however. The national languages of Britain, France and Germany are all self-supported and don't require the same amount of tax-payers money that Irish does. They also don't require forced education.

You've never heard of the Welsh language then, I assume?

MysticalRain wrote: »

I'm just taking your own words here, but if less than 0.03% of the population actually speak the language on a regular basis, it most certainly is on life support. Thats the objective reality here.

Math isn't your strong point, is it?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't want to see it die out. I said I wouldn't have a problem with it dying out. However I don't agree with the huge amount of tax-payers money being spent on the language and I believe this should be drastically reduced.

I don't. So what?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

My point being most languages don't need state support to keep the alive. Irish does.

So, English isn't supported as a mandatory subject in school? All languages which are taught in state-schools, are supported by the state. Many minority languages around the world are supported by their respective states. This isn't unique to Ireland.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, I've heard of the Welsh language.

Then perhaps you can explain this statement.

The national languages of Britain, France and Germany are all self-supported and don't require the same amount of tax-payers money that Irish does. They also don't require forced education.

Welsh is a mandatory subject up until the age of 15. It receives a similar level of support from the state, that Irish receives. So, you're talking shíte to be honest.