If the UK asked Ireland to rejoin the Union, how would you vote?

AnLonDubh · 30-09-2014 11:54am

Jawgap wrote: »

I'm not talking about having a fluid conversation or a technical discussion, but at a low level (around Fort William, Oban, Tobermory and Bowmore) it was possible to exchange pleasantries and engage in preliminary small talk using Irish and Scots Gaelic.

The only other place I tried it was around Inverness and it's like a different language there. Beyond pleasantries and greetings it wasn't possible.

I'm not talking about having a fluid conversation or a technical discussion either, even low-level talk is different enough to be incomprehensible.
Even "I am pleased to meet you" is very different, both the words used and especially the pronunciation.

marienbad · 30-09-2014 12:04pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Well, I haven't said what my quals are and I didn't wear them 'on my sleeve' I hinted at them in response to the following

.......from someone who has yet to post a single source.

I accept there both was and is a Gaelic Ireland and that Brehon Law was 'supplanted' (not surpassed) by the Common Law. Also that Gaelic Ireland never went away (as evidenced by the serious of revivals mentioned in the book you described as irrelevant) - it did what all cultures did evolved and changed under a range of influences.

Even Brehon Law changed when, for example, St Patrick had ecclesiastical law incorporated into it and the Cambro-Normans assimilated and some of their customs and practices were adopted into it.

Now, if you want to discuss we can discuss, but for the second time - can you read what's written, not what you wish was written.

It is somewhat irrelevant to the issues under discussion as to the changes effected in Brehon Law and Irish Culture in general by St Patrick etc. These were the natural collisions between cultures and could have been rejected if the populace so wished . And the end result might even have been the same in time as we see today with the Americanisation of societies.

But something more that that happened , as Mountjoy himself said

'We do now continually hunt all their woods, spoil the corn, burn their houses, and kill so many churls as it grieveth me to think it is necessary to do it’

It was no longer assimilation or subsumption but simply conquest

Jawgap · 30-09-2014 12:13pm

AnLonDubh wrote: »

It wasn't borrowed from the Annals. It was the old Irish word for Irish "Goídhelic" and hence is the root word for the language's name in Scots, Irish and Manx Gaelic.

Really, well you need to take that point up with Professor MacGiolla Chriost - his book "Irish Language in Ireland: From Goidel to Globalisation" suggests otherwise.

I would have thought his writings (especially "Jailteacht") would be familiar to some of the people rattling about on this thread

AnLonDubh wrote: »

I would say Old Irish has a strong resemblance to Modern Irish. It's clear they are the same language.
English went through a rapid (and possibly artificial, since Old English was probably not contemporary to its time, but purposefully archaic) evolution, but Middle English is obviously English.

Again really? Old / Primitive Irish was only codified and written down when Latin arrived and had the structures and grammars of that language applied to it - so having gone through that filter you reckon what went in (the pre-Latin language) would still be comprehensible to us? I reckon it would be about as comprehensible as Ogam writing which itself was replaced by Latin text allowing some of the great works of Irish history (including the various Annals etc) to be produced. An example of how our culture was enhanced by coming into contact with others.

By the way many of the words we now use in Irish went from Latin to Welsh to Irish (according to the good professor) - and words went from Irish into Welsh.

Indeed he says "the fuller literary expression of Irish only became possible through the the greater impact again of Latin and its written culture upon society in Ireland."

But let me guess, he's wrong?

Jawgap · 30-09-2014 12:16pm

marienbad wrote: »

It is somewhat irrelevant to the issues under discussion as to the changes effected in Brehon Law and Irish Culture in general by St Patrick etc. These were the natural collisions between cultures and could have been rejected if the populace so wished . And the end result might even have been the same in time as we see today with the Americanisation of societies.

But something more that that happened , as Mountjoy himself said

'We do now continually hunt all their woods, spoil the corn, burn their houses, and kill so many churls as it grieveth me to think it is necessary to do it’

It was no longer assimilation or subsumption but simply conquest

Yes, I get it - everything that doesn't suit is irrelevant.......:rolleyes:

on the river · 30-09-2014 12:29pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, I get it - everything that doesn't suit is irrelevant.......:rolleyes:

No you don't. You can't just have a selective memory. You must provide a broader history to understand and evaluate the past.

marienbad · 30-09-2014 12:31pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, I get it - everything that doesn't suit is irrelevant.......:rolleyes:

We are at complete cross purposes here , For a guy that supposedly studied history you seem to reduce everything to a binary choice or a one moment in time option .

The interaction between the two cultures was both benign and maglignant , indeed sometimes at the same time and all transpiring over a long period of time . At some point though it changed to a process of conquest .

This is simply history 101 .

Jawgap · 30-09-2014 12:32pm

on the river wrote: »

No you don't. You can't just have a selective memory. You must provide a broader history to understand and evaluate the past.

I agree - hence why I cited two broad based works - one that looked at the rise of Irish cultural nationalism and the other that traced the development of the language.

They provide context on their discussion of the topics they address.

irishfeen · 30-09-2014 12:33pm

Ireland rejoining the UK is absolutely a ridiculous suggestion, if a UI was ever to come about I would support Ireland joining the British commonwealth as a republic though.

on the river · 30-09-2014 12:40pm

irishfeen wrote: »

Ireland rejoining the UK is absolutely a ridiculous suggestion, if a UI was ever to come about I would support Ireland joining the British commonwealth as a republic though.

Outrageous. The commonwealth is just a colonial club for talking nonsense.
The empire is long gone. Europe or Separation is the two choices presently

30-09-2014 12:44pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

smurgen wrote: »

So what? Just because we've something in common with them doesn't mean they've our best interests at heart. What would we benefit from in joining the UK that we wouldn't have in the EU as we are now? Unless you can tell me exactly I suspect you're just on some kind of wind up

Who is they?

If we rejoined the UK the union would represent us as much as the English,
Welsh or Scots.

In fact after the Scottish referendum it's quite clear that in future the control of Westminster over areas such as Scotland will be very much different.

We would gain a lot from the UK, certainly far more direct investment, certainly financial Union with our biggest trading partners and a say in setting our own interest rates.

A lot of the other stuff we never let go, we still speak the language, support their soccer teams and shop in Uk stores.

AnLonDubh · 30-09-2014 12:47pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Really, well you need to take that point up with Professor MacGiolla Chriost - his book "Irish Language in Ireland: From Goidel to Globalisation" suggests otherwise.

I have the book here, what page does he say this.

I mean what I'm saying isn't some wild claim, Goídhelc was the original word for the language in Old Irish. I don't see how it would have been taken from an Annal specifically, since it was in all Old Irish writings.

Again really? Old / Primitive Irish was only codified and written down when Latin arrived and had the structures and grammars of that language applied to it - so having gone through that filter you reckon what went in (the pre-Latin language) would still be comprehensible to us?

Old Irish is very different to Primitive Irish. Primitive Irish does not look like Modern Irish, but Old Irish does. Old Irish does not refer to the language prior to Christianisation, it is the language from the late 6th century onward and yes it does look like modern Irish.
Old Irish didn't have Latin grammar applied to it, its grammar evolved from Primitive Irish grammar, in fact Primitive Irish looks far more like Latin, even though it existed prior to the coming of Latin learning.

irishfeen · 30-09-2014 12:50pm

on the river wrote: »

Outrageous. The commonwealth is just a colonial club for talking nonsense.
The empire is long gone. Europe or Separation is the two choices presently

It would put us at the table with some very big countries who we could well do fine in increasing exports and trade. I did say in the case of a UI because of that did happen you would have 600,000+ unionists incorporated into the new state ... I would have absolutely no problem in keeping a small link to Britain as a way to show them they are very welcome and at home in a UI.

I would also make the 12th of July a national holiday in Ireland today, not to celebrate it like Patrick's day but to respect our history - there is a reason our flag has three equal colours after all.

Rightwing · 30-09-2014 12:50pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

I would imagine Zimbabwe would vote Yes, hopefully we won't get to the stage where the majority would do so here too.

wendell borton · 30-09-2014 12:52pm

Do we get free H2O, if so yes.

irishfeen · 30-09-2014 12:59pm

wendell borton wrote: »

Do we get free H2O, if so yes.

I think they pay very high rates over there, more then we will be paying anyway and their council tax is very high too (couple of thousand I think) .. The grass is very rarely greener on the other side.

30-09-2014 1:13pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

irishfeen wrote: »

I think they pay very high rates over there, more then we will be paying anyway and their council tax is very high too (couple of thousand I think) .. The grass is very rarely greener on the other side.

In fact their water charges per unit will be lower than ours

Council tax pays for many things including refuse collection and far better local authority services.

Exemption and discount on council tax is also provided to low income families.

Other utilities such as electricity and home heating oil is far cheaper.

Overall the cost of living in the UK is far cheaper.

irishfeen · 30-09-2014 1:20pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In fact their water charges per unit will be lower than ours

Council tax pays for many things including refuse collection and far better local authority services.

Exemption and discount on council tax is also provided to low income families.

Other utilities such as electricity and home heating oil is far cheaper.

Overall the cost of living in the UK is far cheaper.

Ya but Irish wages are higher and in fact don't we have a higher standard of living per capita then the UK... I would certainly prefer to stay the way we are anyway - monetary values would never come into play in such a political issue.

30-09-2014 1:26pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

irishfeen wrote: »

Ya but Irish wages are higher and in fact don't we have a higher standard of living per capita then the UK... I would certainly prefer to stay the way we are anyway - monetary values would never come into play in such a political issue.

The UK has lower Vat, no pension levy tax and the tax system is fairer for those earning more.

The only reason Irish wages are higher is because our cost of living is high, and if you consider those at the bottom are actually seeing reductions in living standards and incomes then it's fair to say that we aren't better off than the UK.

irishfeen · 30-09-2014 1:31pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The UK has lower Vat, no pension levy tax and the tax system is fairer for those earning more.

The only reason Irish wages are higher is because our cost of living is high, and if you consider those at the bottom are actually seeing reductions in living standards and incomes then it's fair to say that we aren't better off than the UK.

But then write off the 25-30k cost of sending your young fella to college - you see it's all relative and once the Irish economy picks up again then reductions in tax and other stuff will come ... For a country in such a state only a few years ago we doing fairly well.

30-09-2014 1:42pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

irishfeen wrote: »

But then write off the 25-30k cost of sending your young fella to college - you see it's all relative and once the Irish economy picks up again then reductions in tax and other stuff will come ... For a country in such a state only a few years ago we doing fairly well.

When the country picks up again? Don't make me laugh!

Current debt is fast approaching 200 billion, I doubt we will see any real recovery for another decade at the very least.

Scotland who are members of the UK provide free third level education, they can do this because the subsidies they receive are far greater than Scotland's GDP.

irishfeen · 30-09-2014 1:46pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

When the country picks up again? Don't make me laugh!

Current debt is fast approaching 200 billion, I doubt we will see any real recovery for another decade at the very least.

But the debt doesn't get paid in one go... What happens in every state is money is borrowed to pay back debt - we will be borrowing at lower interest rates because the economy is rebounding sustainably so it will be a cycle ... Do you realise the UKs debt to GDP ratio is 90%?? Not much better then ours..

Shenshen · 30-09-2014 1:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Who is they?

If we rejoined the UK the union would represent us as much as the English,
Welsh or Scots.

In fact after the Scottish referendum it's quite clear that in future the control of Westminster over areas such as Scotland will be very much different.

We would gain a lot from the UK, certainly far more direct investment, certainly financial Union with our biggest trading partners and a say in setting our own interest rates.

A lot of the other stuff we never let go, we still speak the language, support their soccer teams and shop in Uk stores.

And if the UK decides in 2016 to leave the EU, we would lose our easy and direct access to the common market, our influence on the way Europe is developing, our subsidies from Brussels.
Not a good trade-off, in my eyes.

con___manx1 · 30-09-2014 1:59pm

I cant understand how anyone one would vote yes. thoses 330 people obviously have no patriotism or have no clew of irish history.

Deedsie · 30-09-2014 2:14pm

con___manx1 wrote: »

I cant understand how anyone one would vote yes. thoses 330 people obviously have no patriotism or have no clew of irish history.

Sure you will always have that in Ireland, there are people who will always think we were stupid for going independent. "Hand back the keys and say sorry"

They are not going to change their opinions and their ancestors opinions. I wouldn't worry too much, luckily they are a minority. Boards.ie 19% certainly wouldn't be reflective of the RoI population. Maybe Ireland as a whole 19% is a fair reflection of pro UK inclusion for Ireland.

I'd rather be a pauper and have a tricolour fly over Leinster house than be rich under the rule of another country.

Ireland is a relatively young country, it took us a long time to step out from the shadow of foreign administration.

30-09-2014 2:19pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

irishfeen wrote: »

But the debt doesn't get paid in one go... What happens in every state is money is borrowed to pay back debt - we will be borrowing at lower interest rates because the economy is rebounding sustainably so it will be a cycle ... Do you realise the UKs debt to GDP ratio is 90%?? Not much better then ours..

Your absolutely right,

However Ireland isn't even anywhere close to that scenario yet.

At the present time our deficit continues to grow, not shrink. We are still spending more than we bring in.

At the current rates we are paying 8 billion a year in interest alone, nobody can even imagine paying debt pack yet!

30-09-2014 2:23pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

Shenshen wrote: »

And if the UK decides in 2016 to leave the EU, we would lose our easy and direct access to the common market, our influence on the way Europe is developing, our subsidies from Brussels.
Not a good trade-off, in my eyes.

Thats a big if.

We have seen with Scotland that despite current opinion having different views from that of the government the people can easily be persuaded.

If the UK did leave that would mean Ireland`s 2 biggest trading partners would be outside the EU. it could even harm us as big business may favour moving to the UK, we could even see a land border be put in place in the north.

As for our influence on the way Europe is developing? sure, they really listen to us.

30-09-2014 2:25pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

con___manx1 wrote: »

I cant understand how anyone one would vote yes. thoses 330 people obviously have no patriotism or have no clew of irish history.

Irish patriotism or history?

What exactly is that?

A independence war that the majority didn't want.

A civil war that nobody wanted.

A country run today by pure idiots buffoons and con men.

Shenshen · 30-09-2014 2:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats a big if.

We have seen with Scotland that despite current opinion having different views from that of the government the people can easily be persuaded.

If the UK did leave that would mean Ireland`s 2 biggest trading partners would be outside the EU. it could even harm us as big business may favour moving to the UK, we could even see a land border be put in place in the north.

As for our influence on the way Europe is developing? sure, they really listen to us.

The way I see it, it would leave Ireland as the only English-speaking country within the EU, not just within the common currency.
Even more attractive to multi-nationals than it already is at the moment.

The EU (excluding the UK) IS Ireland's biggest trading partner. We do 16.5% of our trade with the UK, and 42.5% with the rest of the EU.
I'd rather have a voice within the EU than having organise 42% of our trade according to EU rules and regulations without any say at all in what those regulations will be.

30-09-2014 2:41pm

No to reject rejoining the Union

Shenshen wrote: »

The way I see it, it would leave Ireland as the only English-speaking country within the EU, not just within the common currency.
Even more attractive to multi-nationals than it already is at the moment.

The EU (excluding the UK) IS Ireland's biggest trading partner. We do 16.5% of our trade with the UK, and 42.5% with the rest of the EU.
I'd rather have a voice within the EU than having organise 42% of our trade according to EU rules and regulations without any say at all in what those regulations will be.

Look at it this way,

Germany exports far more to the UK than the UK imports from Germany. In fact I believe the UK is the highest importer of German cars in the EU.

Do you really think that a country like Germany is going to stop something like the EU getting in the way of their exports to the UK regardless of them being in or out?

As for attraction, many large banks have already stated they could move to the UK to avoid EU legislation which in itself would attract plenty of business to the UK.

marienbad · 30-09-2014 2:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Look at it this way,

Germany exports far more to the UK than the UK imports from Germany. In fact I believe the UK is the highest importer of German cars in the EU.

Do you really think that a country like Germany is going to stop something like the EU getting in the way of their exports to the UK regardless of them being in or out?

As for attraction, many large banks have already stated they could move to the UK to avoid EU legislation which in itself would attract plenty of business to the UK.

That may not be a realistic option for those banks , if they wish to do business with the EU they will have to follow EU rules .

If the UK asked Ireland to rejoin the Union, how would you vote?

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