Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

If the UK asked Ireland to rejoin the Union, how would you vote?

Options
1…2526283031

Comments

  • Options
    #812
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'd say you could be a few hundred days into it and still have learnt SFA at the rate you're going.

    Well, it's a very long time since I had to read that book and I'm more than a few hundred days into studying history - fewer days spent studying Irish history though.
    Nodin wrote: »
    You seem in a hurry to try and provoke people. Tell me, what about that statement made you think that I didn't know where the quote came from?

    Ah look, if I wanted to provoke you I'd have picked up on the "Taleban-esque organisation" and equated you to a "Ten Dollar Taliban" but I didn't.

    .......and if you are, as a student of Pope and the 'heroic couplet,' saying you knew where the quote came from, then I'll accept your word.


  • Options
    #813
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Well if you want to dismiss a book that inquires into the origins of Irish cultural nationalism - go ahead.

    Second, if you are going to persist - as other do in this thread - in not reading what I post then there's not much point in proceeding with the discussion.

    What I said was that each subsumed elements from the other......not that one subsumed the other.....


    and that the nature of the exchange was not indicated as involuntary by the research (which you dismiss as irrelevant)....

    I am not dismissing anything , but you concentrating on issues after the event. You do agree that there was a Gaelic Ireland separate and distinct from our neighbour - yes ? And after a period of interaction with that neighbour that Gaelic Ireland is no more - can we agree on that ?


  • Options
    #814
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    marienbad wrote: »
    I am not dismissing anything , but you concentrating on issues after the event. You do agree that there was a Gaelic Ireland separate and distinct from our neighbour - yes ? And after a period of interaction with that neighbour that Gaelic Ireland is no more - can we agree on that ?

    When did this Gaelic Ireland exist? define it.

    Are we talking the period pre-Norman times, pre-Viking?

    Does Gaelic Ireland include the Hiberno-Normans? The Desmonds and Geraldines?

    Pre-Christian?

    Is the wrtiting of Gaelic Ireland only to be found in ogham? What about Latin and Medieval French, as well as Primitive Irish?


  • Options
    #815
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Jawgap wrote: »
    When did this Gaelic Ireland exist? define it.

    Are we talking the period pre-Norman times, pre-Viking?

    Does Gaelic Ireland include the Hiberno-Normans? The Desmonds and Geraldines?

    Pre-Christian?

    Is the wrtiting of Gaelic Ireland only to be found in ogham? What about Latin and Medieval French, as well as Primitive Irish?

    Does it matter ? This is just smoke and mirrors at this stage , lets just say by the time of the Flight of the Earls a process spanning centuries was effectively done and dusted .

    Why we are even debating this is ridiculous , it is obvious at this stage you have no interest in discussion .


  • Options
    #816
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Jawgap wrote: »
    When did this Gaelic Ireland exist? define it.

    Are we talking the period pre-Norman times, pre-Viking?

    Does Gaelic Ireland include the Hiberno-Normans? The Desmonds and Geraldines?

    Pre-Christian?

    Is the wrtiting of Gaelic Ireland only to be found in ogham? What about Latin and Medieval French, as well as Primitive Irish?


    the Irish language is distinctive to Ireland and the teaching of it was banned by the English at one stage in our own country. we will never be part of the british empire again and we will be all the better for it.anyone who wants to go live in this fantastic empire is free to do so,im sure ryanair will get ye there cheap.we're doing just fine here on our own.the already high standard of living in ireland is on the rise yet again.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #817
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    marienbad wrote: »
    Does it matter ? This is just smoke and mirrors at this stage , lets just say by the time of the Flight of the Earls a process spanning centuries was effectively done and dusted .

    Why we are even debating this is ridiculous , it is obvious at this stage you have no interest in discussion .

    I'm happy to debate, but if you introduce something you can't define then it's hardly my problem.

    And to be honest I would have gone with Brehon Law in defining Gaelic Ireland - but only because I did my thesis on it.

    Wherever the King's writ did not apply would have been Gaelic Ireland or where land passed through tanistry.

    In fact I'm surprised that none of the learned individuals talking how perfidious Albion did for us have thus far mentioned the supplanting of Brehon Law by the Common Law.

    Glad to see they're up to speed on such a distinctive part of our heritage.


  • Options
    #818
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    smurgen wrote: »
    the Irish language is distinctive to Ireland and the teaching of it was banned by the English at one stage in our own country. we will never be part of the british empire again and we will be all the better for it.anyone who wants to go live in this fantastic empire is free to do so,im sure ryanair will get ye there cheap.we're doing just fine here on our own.the already high standard of living in ireland is on the rise yet again.

    That so? Home come I can go to Scotland and speak Irish to Scots Gaelic speakers and be understood?

    Irish also has some commonality with Manx......

    .......but I suppose distinctive is one way to describe it.


  • Options
    #819
    on the river
    Registered Users Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭on the river


    Jawgap wrote: »
    That so? Home come I can go to Scotland and speak Irish to Scots Gaelic speakers and be understood?

    Irish also has some commonality with Manx......

    .......but I suppose distinctive is one way to describe it.

    True. However distinction is key for any country to assert it's right for nationalism and independence.
    Something the irish nationalists were keen to introduce in the early 1900s.
    Without culture a nation and their people's have no soul


  • Options
    #820
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I'm happy to debate, but if you introduce something you can't define then it's hardly my problem.

    And to be honest I would have gone with Brehon Law in defining Gaelic Ireland - but only because I did my thesis on it.

    Wherever the King's writ did not apply would have been Gaelic Ireland or where land passed through tanistry.

    In fact I'm surprised that none of the learned individuals talking how perfidious Albion did for us have thus far mentioned the supplanting of Brehon Law by the Common Law.

    Glad to see they're up to speed on such a distinctive part of our heritage.

    Well most posters don't find it necessary to wear their qualifications on their sleeve as a constant reminder to others of how learned they are .

    But it is nice to see that at last you except that there was a Gaelic Ireland and that it was surpassed by the king's writ .

    Now we can get on to discussing if it was a good thing or a bad thing or just an inevitability .


  • Options
    #821
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, your right, nothing bad has ever ever happened here. We only communicated in grunts and traded horse ****e before the Brits civilised us, mere ape creatures that we were.

    I never said any of the above, and tbh your continuous refusal to engage shows you up.

    Answer the question please, 4th time of asking....
    a) Define Gaelic/Irish Culture
    b) Did the destruction of this culture begin with the Normans?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #822
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    I never said any of the above, and tbh your continuous refusal to engage shows you up.

    Answer the question please, 4th time of asking....
    a) Define Gaelic/Irish Culture
    b) Did the destruction of this culture begin with the Normans?


    We had no culture. We had no clothes. We still had tails. But then we were invaded, and had daycency bate into is, thank the jaysus......


  • Options
    #823
    Vandango
    Closed Accounts Posts: 604 ✭✭✭Vandango


    marienbad wrote: »
    Well most posters don't find it necessary to wear their qualifications on their sleeve as a constant reminder to others of how learned they are.

    Hey you're online and for all you know, you could be addressing a failed circus clown.


  • Options
    #824
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    marienbad wrote: »
    Well most posters don't find it necessary to wear their qualifications on their sleeve as a constant reminder to others of how learned they are .

    But it is nice to see that at last you except that there was a Gaelic Ireland and that it was surpassed by the king's writ .

    Now we can get on to discussing if it was a good thing or a bad thing or just an inevitability .

    Well, I haven't said what my quals are and I didn't wear them 'on my sleeve' I hinted at them in response to the following
    Nodin wrote: »
    A little learning is a terrible thing.
    Nodin wrote: »
    I'd say you could be a few hundred days into it and still have learnt SFA at the rate you're going.

    .......from someone who has yet to post a single source.

    I accept there both was and is a Gaelic Ireland and that Brehon Law was 'supplanted' (not surpassed) by the Common Law. Also that Gaelic Ireland never went away (as evidenced by the serious of revivals mentioned in the book you described as irrelevant) - it did what all cultures did evolved and changed under a range of influences.

    Even Brehon Law changed when, for example, St Patrick had ecclesiastical law incorporated into it and the Cambro-Normans assimilated and some of their customs and practices were adopted into it.

    Now, if you want to discuss we can discuss, but for the second time - can you read what's written, not what you wish was written.


  • Options
    #825
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Vandango wrote: »
    Hey you're online and for all you know, you could be addressing a failed circus clown.

    Quite true - I could be a failed circus clown - and I wouldn't be the first person to fail in one area and succeed wildly in another.


  • Options
    #826
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Nodin wrote: »
    We had no culture. We had no clothes. We still had tails. But then we were invaded, and had daycency bate into is, thank the jaysus......

    Not at all - I'm sure you're aware of the ways the Brehon Law was superior to what replaced it. Indeed it was positively progressive in some key areas even compared to what we have now.

    Pity it lacked that one key ingredient to would have allowed it to survive.


  • Options
    #827
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Jawgap wrote: »
    That so? Home come I can go to Scotland and speak Irish to Scots Gaelic speakers and be understood?

    Irish also has some commonality with Manx......

    .......but I suppose distinctive is one way to describe it.

    Irish isn't the same as those other two Gaelic languages. I'm fluent in Irish and as part of the leaving cert we'd to study these differences.some words might sounds familiar but then so would Irish words and just about any other language in the region.


  • Options
    #828
    MRnotlob606
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    I value our Independence.


  • Options
    #829
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    We had no culture. We had no clothes. We still had tails. But then we were invaded, and had daycency bate into is, thank the jaysus......

    So, your just trolling at this stage.. how nice.
    I can take your blanket refusal to answer two simple questions as a means that you have no answer to my question, therefore you retract your initial statement by default.


  • Options
    #830
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    No to reject rejoining the Union
    The very idea that Ireland should rejoin the union!

    We have nothing in common with the country next door.

    We have our own language that the country speaks,
    We enjoy our own home grown TV channels and programmes
    We enjoy our own sport
    We enjoy shopping in our own shops
    We drive on our own side of the road
    We enjoy fantastic passport controls between our neigbours

    No sir, we have nothing in common with our closest neighbours, im happy to be part of the European Empire where we have everything in common.


  • Options
    #831
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The very idea that Ireland should rejoin the union!

    We have nothing in common with the country next door.

    We have our own language,
    We enjoy our own home grown TV channels and programmes
    We enjoy our own sport
    We enjoy shopping in our own shops
    We drive on our own side of the road
    We enjoy fantastic passport controls between our neigbours

    No sir, we have nothing in common with our closest neighbours, im happy to be part of the European Empire where we have everything in common.

    We speak the same language is the crux of your reasoning?weak


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #832
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    No to reject rejoining the Union
    smurgen wrote: »
    We speak the same language is the crux of your reasoning?weak

    It shows we have a lot in common with the UK.

    In fact we were members of the UK, the fact that we chose to leave cant change the fact that we will continue to be similar to the UK.


  • Options
    #833
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    No to reject rejoining the Union
    MRnotlob606 wrote: »
    I value our Independence.

    Shame we don't have any.

    EU.


  • Options
    #834
    truedoom
    Registered Users Posts: 400 ✭✭truedoom


    The only positive thing I could get from ireland joining the UK is free delivery from any UK shop, and next day and all that jazz.

    Would be nice to order on amazon without having to rely on parcel motel :P


  • Options
    #835
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    smurgen wrote: »
    Irish isn't the same as those other two Gaelic languages. I'm fluent in Irish and as part of the leaving cert we'd to study these differences.some words might sounds familiar but then so would Irish words and just about any other language in the region.

    I didn't say they were the same - I disputed that Irish was distinctive to the degree suggested.

    It is not distinct in the way Basque, for example, is distinct - Irish is part of a family of languages and within that family (Insular Celtic Languages) it's part of the Goidelic branch - along with Scottish Gaelic and Manx - the three trace their origins back to Primitive Irish.

    Beyond that there's shared heritage with Welsh, Breton, Cornish and the Continental Celtic languages.


  • Options
    #836
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    It shows we have a lot in common with the UK.

    In fact we were members of the UK, the fact that we chose to leave cant change the fact that we will continue to be similar to the UK.

    So what? Just because we've something in common with them doesn't mean they've our best interests at heart. What would we benefit from in joining the UK that we wouldn't have in the EU as we are now? Unless you can tell me exactly I suspect you're just on some kind of wind up


  • Options
    #837
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I didn't say they were the same - I disputed that Irish was distinctive to the degree suggested.

    It is not distinct in the way Basque, for example, is distinct - Irish is part of a family of languages and within that family (Insular Celtic Languages) it's part of the Goidelic branch - along with Scottish Gaelic and Manx - the three trace their origins back to Primitive Irish.

    Beyond that there's shared heritage with Welsh, Breton, Cornish and the Continental Celtic languages.

    You're trying to make out there's nothing unique about us so we might as well join a ridiculous union. There are part of the Irish language that are unique to this country alone that we do not share with any other Gaelic language.

    The whole premise of a kingdom in this day and age is ridiculous and imo at ends with the idea of democracy. When the English sort all that out maybe then they can join us in some union.


  • Options
    #838
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    smurgen wrote: »
    You're trying to make out there's nothing unique about us so we might as well join a ridiculous union. There are part of the Irish language that are unique to this country alone that we do not share with any other Gaelic language.

    The whole premise of a kingdom in this day and age is ridiculous and imo at ends with the idea of democracy. When the English sort all that out maybe then they can join us in some union.

    Actually I'm not - I'm just pointing out that Irish culture has, and will continue, to evolve -drawing influences in from a lot of sources and serving in it's own right to influence others.

    The language did not spontaneously arise here as it is not regarded as a 'linguistic isolate' - in fact "Goidelic" means pirate or raider, and was borrowed from one of the Annals to describe the family of languages.

    Irish only arrived here between 500 BCE and 100 BCE, and even you discount the historical evidence and decide to go with the pseudo-historical narrative, the suggested origin of the language then that fairy tale tells the story of how the language was given to us by 'Gaedhael Glas" - grandson of Noah - who fashioned it from the best elements of the 72 languages that were spoken at the Tower of Babel.

    It borrowed from Latin which arrived a few hundred years later and Norse which arrived another couple of hundred years after that.

    Do people seriously think that the Irish speak today bears any resemblance to what the locals were speaking 1,500 years ago before the arrival of Latin, Norse, French and English? Anymore than the English we speak now bears a resemblance to Old English?

    Yes, there are parts of the language that are unique in the same way there are parts of the dialects spoke in Donegal, Kerry etc that are unique to those regions - that's the same in any language.

    Btw- if you took the time to read what I've written (rather than crudely assuming) you'd see that I said a monarchy would be an undoubted redline issue and that only a federal republic with a strong upper house providing equal representation to each country would be acceptable (to me anyway).


  • Options
    #839
    AnLonDubh
    Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭AnLonDubh


    Jawgap wrote: »
    That so? Home come I can go to Scotland and speak Irish to Scots Gaelic speakers and be understood?
    That would surprise me, even for simple sentences. I have met and spoken with a Scots Gaelic speaker from the North Uist who came to Ireland to learn Irish, specifically because she could not understand it and wanted to. I have also been told directly by native speakers of both languages that they can not understand the other language when they hear it. There is ease of comprehension for the written languages, but not the spoken languages.


  • Options
    #840
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    AnLonDubh wrote: »
    That would surprise me, even for simple sentences. I have met and spoken with a Scots Gaelic speaker from the North Uist who came to Ireland to learn Irish, specifically because she could not understand it and wanted to. I have also been told directly by native speakers of both languages that they can not understand the other language when they hear it. There is ease of comprehension for the written languages, but not the spoken languages.

    I'm not talking about having a fluid conversation or a technical discussion, but at a low level (around Fort William, Oban, Tobermory and Bowmore) it was possible to exchange pleasantries and engage in preliminary small talk using Irish and Scots Gaelic.

    The only other place I tried it was around Inverness and it's like a different language there. Beyond pleasantries and greetings it wasn't possible.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #841
    AnLonDubh
    Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭AnLonDubh


    Jawgap wrote: »
    The language did not spontaneously arise here as it is not regarded as a 'linguistic isolate' - in fact "Goidelic" means pirate or raider, and was borrowed from one of the Annals to describe the family of languages.
    It wasn't borrowed from the Annals. It was the old Irish word for Irish "Goídhelic" and hence is the root word for the language's name in Scots, Irish and Manx Gaelic.
    Do people seriously think that the Irish speak today bears any resemblance to what the locals were speaking 1,500 years ago before the arrival of Latin, Norse, French and English? Anymore than the English we speak now bears a resemblance to Old English?
    I would say Old Irish has a strong resemblance to Modern Irish. It's clear they are the same language.
    English went through a rapid (and possibly artificial, since Old English was probably not contemporary to its time, but purposefully archaic) evolution, but Middle English is obviously English.


Advertisement