Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

.ak · 13-11-2011 9:38pm

Whilst I know Donnacha Ryan is 27, I was still impressed enough with him at lock to see him play there rather than the backrow for Ireland. Could be a good 'transitional' player while newer players are blooded.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 13-11-2011 9:49pm

.ak wrote: »

Whilst I know Donnacha Ryan is 27, I was still impressed enough with him at lock to see him play there rather than the backrow for Ireland. Could be a good 'transitional' player while newer players are blooded.

He'd have 2/3 as many Irish caps if had moved to Leinster a few years ago. His career stalled terribly at Munster but, hopefully he gets a lengthy run for Munster and cements his place. Tuohy will have a very hard time earning a spot in the Irish team if Ryan develops a good partnership with POC.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 13-11-2011 10:11pm

Is McCarthy the lineout caller in Connacht.

For a long time Cullen was the bench lock on the basis that he is a good jumper in the lineout and that he called the lineouts at Leinster. If POC isn't available at Munster MOD gets the job and D Ryan and DOC aren't played there together for fear of malfunction in the lineout.

I know there seems to be something of a chronic fear of leaving Dan Tuohy to call lineouts in Ulster.

If McCarthy does that job in Connacht it might help him get up the pecking order internationally at least for a bench place in case .

Personally would like to see POC and Ryan/Tuohy starting with DOC on the bench in the senior squad and Toner and whichever of Ryan/Tuohy aren't starting playing in the wolfhounds games around the 6 nations. I think there are two scheduled this year.

Podge_irl · 13-11-2011 10:20pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I know there seems to be something of a chronic fear of leaving Dan Tuohy to call lineouts in Ulster.

Does Touhy not run the Ulster line out?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 13-11-2011 10:38pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Does Touhy not run the Ulster line out?

Muller usually does it, when he wasn't available during the RWC I think whichever of Stevenson or Barker was playing did it.

Before Muller arrived EOD did it.

ambid · 13-11-2011 10:49pm

danthefan wrote: »

Imo Toner won't cut it as an international. Don't think he's physical enough really. Would love to be proven wrong.

That was the case last year, but he's changed this year. Whenever I've seen him play he has been extremely physical.

irishbucsfan · 13-11-2011 10:53pm

ambid wrote: »

That was the case last year, but he's changed this year. Whenever I've seen him play he has been extremely physical.

Agreed. He was far more physical than Cullen yesterday, for example.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 13-11-2011 11:07pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Agreed. He was far more physical than Cullen yesterday, for example.

Is that a positive for Toner or a negative for Cullen though? I thought Cullen was poor yesterday and he presented himself to carry way too much but, he did have one nice little pop pass to Heaslip (I think). He makes DOC look like SOB when it comes to carrying.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 13-11-2011 11:16pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Is that a positive for Toner or a negative for Cullen though? I thought Cullen was poor yesterday and he presented himself to carry way too much but, he did have one nice little pop pass to Heaslip (I think). He makes DOC look like SOB when it comes to carrying.

Its a bit of both actually. Toner did well physically all season and did well when he came on yesterday. Have to wonder if he just looked physical yesterday because he was fresh but I think he deserves starts at HEC level. According to ESPNscrum Cullen carried 7 times yesterday for a total return of 7 meters. Ross carried 8 times for a return of 3 meters. While its good that they offer themselves and aren't scared to carry (as Ross seemed when he arrived at Leinster) they should leave the carrying to the people who are good at it unless needed for some reason. Or unless there is a gap in front of them.

shuffol · 13-11-2011 11:29pm

Whilst Cullen cant carry his link play in the loose is excellent and is key to Leinsters style, POC frustrated the heck out of me yesterday by continually popping up in midfield and carrying into contact when the better option was to keep the ball alive. He's a very courageous player but is prone to killing his sides momentum.

As for Toner, not his biggest fan and don think he'll ever cut it at test level but his pop pass to SOB in the build up to Cronins try was top class, perhaps as he improves physically and becomes more comfortable in contact he could become a Hines like link player as good hands and vision is something he obviously has in his armoury.

13-11-2011 11:30pm

shuffol wrote: »

Whilst Cullen cant carry his link play in the loose is excellent and is key to Leinsters style, POC frustrated the heck out of me yesterday by continually popping up in midfield and carrying into contact when the better option was to keep the ball alive. He's a very courageous player but is prone to killing his sides momentum.

usually, but not yesterday. He wasn't near his best. A lot of that due to the fact that he's had next to no rugby in the past 3/4 months, but still, he wouldn't be happy using that as an excuse himself.

porterbelly · 13-11-2011 11:49pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Is McCarthy the lineout caller in Connacht.

For a long time Cullen was the bench lock on the basis that he is a good jumper in the lineout and that he called the lineouts at Leinster. If POC isn't available at Munster MOD gets the job and D Ryan and DOC aren't played there together for fear of malfunction in the lineout.

I know there seems to be something of a chronic fear of leaving Dan Tuohy to call lineouts in Ulster.

If McCarthy does that job in Connacht it might help him get up the pecking order internationally at least for a bench place in case .

Personally would like to see POC and Ryan/Tuohy starting with DOC on the bench in the senior squad and Toner and whichever of Ryan/Tuohy aren't starting playing in the wolfhounds games around the 6 nations. I think there are two scheduled this year.

McCarthy runs the Connacht lineout and runs a pretty tight ship. Our lineout is very strong these days.

He's a class player and he should be in the 6 nations squad. O Connell, McCarthy and Tuohy are the top 3 locks we have at the moment.

Ryan needs regular gametime at lock and to assume more responsibility. Toner is too light. Cullen is suited to the 80s or 90s, he had Hines for the last couple of years to the donkey work so he could focus on the lineout, without him Leinster's engine room is very average. Toner isn't up to it. O'Callaghan's form in the last couple of years for the best part has been muck.

We need to freshen things up and go with the form players. Tuohy and McCarthy have to get a chance

CatFromHue · 14-11-2011 12:07am

Can a hooker call a lineout? All the names mentioned are second rows.

porterbelly · 14-11-2011 12:09am

CatFromHue wrote: »

Can a hooker call a lineout? All the names mentioned are second rows.

No

CatFromHue · 14-11-2011 12:10am

Why not?

porterbelly · 14-11-2011 12:16am

CatFromHue wrote: »

Why not?

Well the lineout leader calls the shots, the hooker does what he's told, that's the way it goes down

irishbucsfan · 14-11-2011 12:17am

CatFromHue wrote: »

Why not?

Because the hooker is the one forward that definitely won't be in the line!

The person who calls the lineout will invariably be a jumper, located within four players from the front of the lineout.

I understand what you're thinking, that a hooker should know about it and all that, but if you are involved in a lineout you'll realise that the jumpers are the ones who are best able to focus on the opposition and make a call regarding where best to place the throw. Also, calling a lineout is important on both offense and defense, and a hooker is rarely involved at all on defense, and if he is, he is lifiting.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 14-11-2011 12:28am

Shane Byrne apparently called lineouts

http://www.ruckingball.com/2011/04/the-hooker-and-the-line-out/

The only hooker I know to do it.

Personally I don't agree with a hooker doing it. If the hooker does it then who calls the lineout in defense. Two callers? Probably not a good idea imo.

Also the hooker probably mightn't be heard by whoever is at the back of the lineout. There is a risk of confusion.

ormond lad · 14-11-2011 1:40am

porterbelly wrote: »

McCarthy runs the Connacht lineout and runs a pretty tight ship. Our lineout is very strong these days.

He's a class player and he should be in the 6 nations squad. O Connell, McCarthy and Tuohy are the top 3 locks we have at the moment. Biased as i am, id have ryan as number 4

Ryan needs regular gametime at lock and to assume more responsibility.
You can clearly see in munster games expecially when he has came on as a sub that he raises the tempo, gets his teammates motoring again Toner is too light. Hes already nearly 19stone and the heaviest 2nd row in Ireland, he doesnt need to be much heavier than that or he'll be ineffective in lineouts dispite the advantages of being 6ft 10.
Cullen is suited to the 80s or 90s, he had Hines for the last couple of years to the donkey work so he could focus on the lineout, without him Leinster's engine room is very average. i agree on cullen, isnt great at all round the field and needs someone with an unbelievable workrate beside him in 2nd row Toner isn't up to it. O'Callaghan's form in the last couple of years for the best part has been muck.

We need to freshen things up and go with the form players. Tuohy and McCarthy have to get a chance

In my opinion if picking 4 2nd rows for ireland you would pick POC, D Ryan, Tuohy and prob McCarthy
DOC needs a kick up the a***

porterbelly · 14-11-2011 1:48am

ormond lad wrote: »

In my opinion if picking 4 2nd rows for ireland you would pick POC, D Ryan, Tuohy and prob McCarthy
DOC needs a kick up the a***

I shouldn't say Toner is too light, his physique just isn't cut our for international rugby. He's heavy but he can't seem to use it

irishbucsfan · 14-11-2011 1:53am

porterbelly wrote: »

I shouldn't say Toner is too light, his physique just isn't cut our for international rugby. He's heavy but he can't seem to use it

Have you seen him play this season?

porterbelly · 14-11-2011 1:57am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Have you seen him play this season?

Pro 12 games. When the big physical test was on the horizon he got dropped

irishbucsfan · 14-11-2011 2:05am

porterbelly wrote: »

Pro 12 games. When the big physical test was on the horizon he got dropped

:rolleyes:

Clearly you feel you have to devalue Toner's excellent form this season.

He was "dropped" for a fluent French speaker who played in the league. And then came on and was arguably the most physical 2nd row on the pitch.

Whoever that Connacht winger was that he steamrolled a few weeks ago certainly wouldn't say he's too light!

He has an extremely high ceiling, he's in good form and he's still young. He could easilly become an international based on the way he's playing this season. I'd have him as one of the top 5, not sure if I'd select him for the squad though.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 14-11-2011 2:10am

Toner still has a lot to learn. He has improved big time but there is a lot still to do. If his good substitute appearance this weekend earns him promotion to the the starting team next week and he keeps that starting position anything could happen come the 6Ns.

He has to maintain his good form and step up a level. Big ask.

totallegend · 14-11-2011 11:14am

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Toner still has a lot to learn. He has improved big time but there is a lot still to do. If his good substitute appearance this weekend earns him promotion to the the starting team next week and he keeps that starting position anything could happen come the 6Ns.

He has to maintain his good form and step up a level. Big ask.

When the Leinster team is announced on Friday, I 100% expect Toner to be named in the starting side. Schmidt likes this tactic of varying the lineup depending on the opposition and the inclusion of Browne against Montpellier was very much a horses for courses selection. Toner could well develop into an international class second row if he gets a run of games; all through his Leinster career, he has been behind the likes of Mal O'Kelly, Leo Cullen and Nathan Hines and that was always going to be a tough ask but this season he has the chance to step up and claim the jersey. He has the physical attributes but also lovely handling skills, so if he can start putting himself about a bit, he'll do the job.

All that said, if there was an Ireland match tomorrow, I'd pick POC and Tuohy in the second row.

porterbelly · 14-11-2011 11:18am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Clearly you feel you have to devalue Toner's excellent form this season.

He was "dropped" for a fluent French speaker who played in the league. And then came on and was arguably the most physical 2nd row on the pitch.

Whoever that Connacht winger was that he steamrolled a few weeks ago certainly wouldn't say he's too light!

He has an extremely high ceiling, he's in good form and he's still young. He could easilly become an international based on the way he's playing this season. I'd have him as one of the top 5, not sure if I'd select him for the squad though.

Jarvis, the outhalf come full back. 2nd row forward at full pace 5 metres out against a skinny fly half. One winner there.

He'd be in the top 5 really by default because it's an area where we're short of numbers. Obviously he has improved this year and showed some good form but he needs to do it consistently and in the big games if he's to be worth consideration

pajunior · 14-11-2011 11:37am

porterbelly wrote: »

Jarvis, the outhalf come full back. 2nd row forward at full pace 5 metres out against a skinny fly half. One winner there.

He'd be in the top 5 really by default because it's an area where we're short of numbers. Obviously he has improved this year and showed some good form but he needs to do it consistently and in the big games if he's to be worth consideration

I don't know the exact stats but I would assume that Toner has a huge amount more HEC starts/sub appearances then D Ryan or obviously McCarthy.

I've never seen Toner let Leinster down in a HEC match, he always got dropped because simply put Hines was a much better player and obviously would have walked into the Irish team.

GerM · 14-11-2011 11:41am

pajunior wrote: »

I've never seen Toner let Leinster down in a HEC match, he always got dropped because simply put Hines was a much better player and obviously would have walked into the Irish team.

Far from it. He seems to raise his game for the HEC matches and was superb in the 4 or 5 matches he started when we won the tournament in 2009. He was MOTM against Castres and immense at home to Wasps also when he came on early for Cullen. Similarly, he was excellent at home last year to Racing. His hit on Chabal when he stopped him dead and marched him back was one of the moments of the game.

GerM · 15-11-2011 1:10pm

Interesting comment by Tony Ward today. I find him very dull normally but he came out with one that could spark some debate when he said in relation to Ian Humphreys:

He's by some way our third best out-half, and the gap between him and the main two is nowhere near as wide as some would have you believe.

Naturally gifted? Definitely. But I'm not sure he has the consistency or character to be considered way out ahead of Keatley or not far behind ROG and Sexton. Fantastic player to watch but you always worry he'll do something awful when on the field.

wixfjord · 15-11-2011 1:23pm

porterbelly wrote: »

Pro 12 games. When the big physical test was on the horizon he got dropped

You seem to have the inside line on Leinster's selection policies porterbelly, judging by your thoughts on Hagan and Carr too.

Toner has been brilliant so far this year, and was great when he came on on Sat too.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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