Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

chinguetti · 06-09-2011 11:15pm

So whose on the sub committee to pick a manager?

And will the people involved do a proper job in looking for someone instead of selecting the first name that comes into their heads and going with them?

fricatus · 06-09-2011 11:19pm

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

fitz gone yahoo

Ah come on, I know loads of us wanted him to go, me included, but I'm not jumping up and down in celebration. He brought us a Munster championship, an appearance in at least a semi-final each year of his reign, our first final appearance since 1963, and don't forget that since he came on board, we've only ever gone out to the eventual champions.

I agree we need someone else next year, but it's going to be a tough one to find someone who can bring us forward and not just sideways.

It's a little bit like voting out an unpopular government - OK, great, they're gone, but will the new crowd do any better?

I'm grateful to him for his four years, and hopeful we can now move things on. Good luck Davy and thanks!

Cake Man · 06-09-2011 11:23pm

I'm surprised but not surprised if you know what I mean! Had a feeling all along that he'd be kept on for another year, especially with Cunningham pushing for it.

Is it just coincidence that O'Grady is gone from Limerick?? I'd love if he got it but I just don't think the money is there and also whether he'd even take it.

Thanks for the good days though Davy, I know plenty of people weren't a fan of him or his style (myself included) but we did have some good days under him and it wasn't all bad. The younger lads he brought through can only do us good for the future so I'll gladly thank him for his efforts in that regard.

A new chapter to hopefully unfold for Deise hurling....

deisebhoy17 · 06-09-2011 11:23pm

Lads we have to go for O'Grady no question hes the man we need. Forget Michael Ryan or anyone else within the county its obvious there is no outstanding candidate up to the job. this is too good an opportunity to miss. Whether O'Grady would take it or not the least we can do is approach him

PTH2009 · 06-09-2011 11:55pm

Jim Greene might get the job.

That will bring us back to the dark days

Professey Chin · 07-09-2011 12:04am

PTH2009 wrote: »

Jim Greene might get the job.

That will bring us back to the dark days

Jesus dont be sayin stuff like that

hurler on de ditch · 07-09-2011 8:32pm

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Lads we have to go for O'Grady no question hes the man we need. Forget Michael Ryan or anyone else within the county its obvious there is no outstanding candidate up to the job. this is too good an opportunity to miss. Whether O'Grady would take it or not the least we can do is approach him

yep

The blue blaa · 07-09-2011 9:33pm

I'm happy davy is gone, i think he should have gone last year, his tactics were never right,always negative in attack and for a former all star goalie he never organised our defence properly, constantly changing it around, and then bringing a boxer from dublin into a waterford dressing room for motivation i'l never make head, arse nor tail of that one... But we all know most goalies are mad anyway... With our county board i wouldnt be surprised to see Marty Morrissey get the job.. Ideally we'd all to see love Donal O'Grady but we dont have the funds for him.. A man i'd be more than happy to see involved would be Martin Fogarty who's been wit brian Cody last few years think he's a Tallow man originally but he's tons of experience..

Deise 2012 · 08-09-2011 3:54pm

chinguetti wrote: »

So whose on the sub committee to pick a manager?

According to Tom Cunningham yesterday on WLR it is Himself as Chairman, John O'Leary as Vice Chairman, Timmy O'Keeffe as Secretary. Joe Cleary as Treasurer and two club delegates.

Professey Chin · 08-09-2011 3:58pm

Deise 2012 wrote: »

According to Tom Cunningham yesterday on WLR it is Himself as Chairman, John O'Leary as Vice Chairman, Timmy O'Keeffe as Secretary. Joe Cleary as Treasurer and two club delegates.

This wont end well I fear

Deise 2012 · 08-09-2011 3:59pm

Cake Man wrote: »

I'm surprised but not surprised if you know what I mean! Had a feeling all along that he'd be kept on for another year, especially with Cunningham pushing for it.

Depends on who you listen to Davy was looking for two years more but Tom was only willing to give him one. I read in the examiner before the Galway game that a contract had been offered to Davy. I think it was John Fogarty that penned the piece. How true this was is not known. I'm sure it was a verbal offer from Tom.

mccarthy37 · 09-09-2011 1:53pm

Rumour doing the rounds is that Fergal Hartley will be offered the Waterford job. Its about time somebody from within the county took charge.

PTH2009 · 09-09-2011 2:25pm

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Rumour doing the rounds is that Fergal Hartley will be offered the Waterford job. Its about time somebody from within the county took charge.

so what real experience does he have.???. He only management the under 21s for a year and they were beaten by a bad tipp side.

One thing i hope the new manager does is give captancy for 2012 to another player. I think Stephen Molumphy needs a season without pressure of captancy.

John Mullane 2012 Waterford Captain ??

lovelypoint · 09-09-2011 6:18pm

PTH2009 wrote: »

so what real experience does he have.???. He only management the under 21s for a year and they were beaten by a bad tipp side

In fairness, what experience did many of the senior managers given the job for the first time by a myriad of counties have before they were given the reins? I would like to see Fergal get a crack at the job, if he wants it, although as noted with his inexperience, I would like to see a strong management team in place with him.

I hope we also see the minor and U-21 managers get some exposure to the senior set-up as well, and perhaps even Paul Flynn might get a crack at the U-21's (or minors if Chuck decides not to continue) also.

The time is ripe to marshall some of the talent within the county, and hope it starts here.

Mountainlad · 09-09-2011 7:21pm

lovelypoint wrote: »

In fairness, what experience did many of the senior managers given the job for the first time by a myriad of counties have before they were given the reins? I would like to see Fergal get a crack at the job, if he wants it, although as noted with his inexperience, I would like to see a strong management team in place with him.

I hope we also see the minor and U-21 managers get some exposure to the senior set-up as well, and perhaps even Paul Flynn might get a crack at the U-21's (or minors if Chuck decides not to continue) also.

The time is ripe to marshall some of the talent within the county, and hope it starts here.

True to a point but I'd like if Fergal had at least some club experience as well. Like I don't think he did badly with the 21s at all, they had such a young team, and hence I'd like to see him retain that and let that be the test of his managerial ability.

And in response to the negativity about Davy bringing in Bernard Dunne, I think that was a good move. I remember Eoin Kelly last year speaking of how Paul O'Connell had a lasting impact when he spoke to the Tipp team once, so getting a high profiled sportsman who has tasted success to give words of advice to the team is in my view a neccessity. Training methods involving sparring, now that is something I'd maybe be a bit more critical of.

hurler on de ditch · 10-09-2011 9:54pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

True to a point but I'd like if Fergal had at least some club experience as well. Like I don't think he did badly with the 21s at all, they had such a young team, and hence I'd like to see him retain that and let that be the test of his managerial ability.

And in response to the negativity about Davy bringing in Bernard Dunne, I think that was a good move. I remember Eoin Kelly last year speaking of how Paul O'Connell had a lasting impact when he spoke to the Tipp team once, so getting a high profiled sportsman who has tasted success to give words of advice to the team is in my view a neccessity. Training methods involving sparring, now that is something I'd maybe be a bit more critical of.

ah jesus paul o connell and bernard dunne dose not cut it, if anyone 2 come in and have a chat with lads it should be a hurler, someone players would actually have time and RESPECT FOR NOT 1 OF DAVYS SQUEAKY LITTLE FRIENDS ,OR LADY sprinters and i have great time for kelly proper, these people just dont cut it , i think someone like pat mc grath ,john galvin,bugs byrne,sean cullinane to name but a few,or just a manager with a brain

lovelypoint · 10-09-2011 11:49pm

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

ah jesus paul o connell and bernard dunne dose not cut it, if anyone 2 come in and have a chat with lads it should be a hurler, someone players would actually have time and RESPECT FOR NOT 1 OF DAVYS SQUEAKY LITTLE FRIENDS ,OR LADY sprinters and i have great time for kelly proper, these people just dont cut it , i think someone like pat mc grath ,john galvin,bugs byrne,sean cullinane to name but a few,or just a manager with a brain

Not sure I agree, inspiration like ideas are tricky to trace back to the source, and for some I imagine it is very inspiring to get to meet with winners in other sports. It's always very hard to tell what works, as I remember several AI winners from Waterford visiting the squad before big games in the last decade, and do not believe it was the difference. Still though, any avenue that brings on even one player has to be considered worthwhile, and as Brian Corcoran said in his much maligned book, you don't have complete control over many things in the game, but one thing you do over, is your attitude. Visits by winners and champions, especially resilient ones, can be very beneficial to the non-physical side of some players game, I imagine.

lovelypoint · 10-09-2011 11:51pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

True to a point but I'd like if Fergal had at least some club experience as well. Like I don't think he did badly with the 21s at all, they had such a young team, and hence I'd like to see him retain that and let that be the test of his managerial ability.

And in response to the negativity about Davy bringing in Bernard Dunne, I think that was a good move. I remember Eoin Kelly last year speaking of how Paul O'Connell had a lasting impact when he spoke to the Tipp team once, so getting a high profiled sportsman who has tasted success to give words of advice to the team is in my view a neccessity. Training methods involving sparring, now that is something I'd maybe be a bit more critical of.

True enough. The head would say it is too soon for senior job for Hartley, but if the elements and the proper supporting team is there, you never know..

Mountainlad · 11-09-2011 12:01am

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

ah jesus paul o connell and bernard dunne dose not cut it, if anyone 2 come in and have a chat with lads it should be a hurler, someone players would actually have time and RESPECT FOR NOT 1 OF DAVYS SQUEAKY LITTLE FRIENDS ,OR LADY sprinters and i have great time for kelly proper, these people just dont cut it , i think someone like pat mc grath ,john galvin,bugs byrne,sean cullinane to name but a few,or just a manager with a brain

The quote Kelly used was "Hard work beats talent, if talent doesn't work hard". Now that to me is a fairly basic concept. Of course, Kelly obviously bought into it, and why not, Paul O'Connell should be an inspiration to anybody performing in any sporting field and what he said is accurate. You can see that work is an ethos in Munster rugby, and you could also see the central role it played in Tipp hurling last year when they beat Kilkenny, as from the forwards to the backs everyone of them was hooking, blocking tackling and working to the last. So it probably rung through on some level.

So I don't believe Davy was wrong to bring in a motivational speaker. Some may argue the merits of Bernard Dunne, I can't say as I've never heard him make a motivational speech, but in fairness he was a good boxer, and very committed, so i wouldn't condemn the decision to make that sort of attempt to get into the heads of players. I would in fact be disappointed if a manager disregarded the importance of motivational speakers, as the psychological aspect of things is easily as important as anything else.

mccarthy37 · 11-09-2011 2:09pm

Well done to the junior camogie team on wining their first all ireland title .Never has third time lucky has more appropriate when you look at the great come back that Down made in the second half, with 15 minutes to go with an a 11 point lead and to win in the end by 1 point tell's its own story. Well done girl's.

Deise 2012 · 11-09-2011 4:20pm

Congratulations to the Ladies on a super win today. What a pity that the game was not shown on TV and that there was games on in the county today. Had there been no name, a few more bodies might have made it to Dublin for the game.

Deise West · 12-09-2011 10:52pm

lovelypoint wrote: »

True enough. The head would say it is too soon for senior job for Hartley, but if the elements and the proper supporting team is there, you never know..

Young managers with proper supporting team's rarely, if ever, deliver success on the big stage. Only 5 or 6 different managers have won All Ireland Hurling Championships in the last 15 or so years, all over 50 years old!
No matter how its dressed up the young boss is still the boss, no matter what support is there.

It would be good if Hartley could gain experience in managing senior players even at club level, to compliment his U21 experience, before taking the next step at county grade.

Professey Chin · 12-09-2011 11:08pm

Deise West wrote: »

Young managers with proper supporting team's rarely, if ever, deliver success on the big stage. Only 5 or 6 different managers have won All Ireland Hurling Championships in the last 15 or so years, all over 50 years old!
No matter how its dressed up the young boss is still the boss, no matter what support is there.

It would be good if Hartley could gain experience in managing senior players even at club level, to compliment his U21 experience, before taking the next step at county grade.

Sheedys 41

Deise West · 12-09-2011 11:36pm

Mega Chin wrote: »

Sheedys 41

Fair point,I stand corrected! I thought he was older. I see he was manager at intermediate in 2000, 8 years before he took on the senior role, and also as minor manager in 2005/2006. Good apprenticeship!

Speak Now · 12-09-2011 11:39pm

Mega Chin wrote: »

Sheedys 41

And Cody is 57 which means he won a few of the 8 before he turned 50

PTH2009 · 12-09-2011 11:50pm

Wonder would we go with a joint manageral set up. ??

Fergal Hartley/Michael Ryan Joint Managers

Dave Benett (Coach)

Just hope Jim Greene or Babs Keating dont get it.

Not a hope in hell of Liam Sheedy, Nicky English, Donal O Grady wanting the job

Mountainlad · 13-09-2011 12:19pm

I don't think Michael Bond was over 50 either. I don't agree, if you're good enough you're old enough, but I'd prefer someone with experience.

PTH2009 wrote: »

Wonder would we go with a joint manageral set up. ??

Fergal Hartley/Michael Ryan Joint Managers

Dave Benett (Coach)

Just hope Jim Greene or Babs Keating dont get it.

Not a hope in hell of Liam Sheedy, Nicky English, Donal O Grady wanting the job

Babs Keating is an irrational concern, he would never get it nor will he be interested. I don't think anyone wants Jim Greene.

Speak Now · 13-09-2011 12:46pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

I don't think Michael Bond was over 50 either. I don't agree, if you're good enough you're old enough, but I'd prefer someone with experience.

Neither were the Ger Loughnane,Nicky English or Jimmy Barry Murphy.
I suppose apart from Nicky they're all over 50 now

Jeddah · 13-09-2011 3:57pm

Looking at the make up of the committee tasked with coming up with the recommedendation for the next manager , i wouldnt be too confident in all the people appointed. There should have been people with better hurling pedigree than the Chairman , Secretary & Treasurer. Would have liked to have seen some respected former players involved in process.

lovelypoint · 13-09-2011 4:23pm

Jeddah wrote: »

Looking at the make up of the committee tasked with coming up with the recommedendation for the next manager , i wouldnt be too confident in all the people appointed. There should have been people with better hurling pedigree than the Chairman , Secretary & Treasurer. Would have liked to have seen some respected former players involved in process.

A ridiculous, farcical setup once again, and just about as impartial as last year. A 3/ 4 man committee (with no county board influence), reporting to the county board is what is really required, not this thinly veiled attempt at an impartial selection process.

hurler on de ditch · 13-09-2011 8:23pm

Jeddah wrote: »

Looking at the make up of the committee tasked with coming up with the recommedendation for the next manager , i wouldnt be too confident in all the people appointed. There should have been people with better hurling pedigree than the Chairman , Secretary & Treasurer. Would have liked to have seen some respected former players involved in process.

i totally agree last year was a farce,disgraceful decision making and then treating de rest of the people like morons , coming out de way he[tom cunningham] did in favour of davy fitz and then the shambolic and total waste of time interviewing other candidates before recommending davy to himself [bertie ahearne has.nt a patch on him]also county board no balls they would have been happy 2 keep davy and then probably let de players try and get rid of him further down the line ,and why cant they come out and say who de yes men [club delicates]who will make up the sub committee,,,,,,,anyone know who mystery men or women are,its so draconian its no wonder we only have 2 all irelands in 130 years

Jeddah · 14-09-2011 10:43am

A special sub-committee comprising the four senior board officers — Tom Cunningham, vice-chairman John O’Leary, county secretary Timmy O’Keeffe and treasurer Joe Cleary — together with De La Salle’s Seamus Quirke and John McDonnell of Tallow as representatives of the clubs — are mandated to begin the hunt for Fitzgerald’s successor.

There was a proposal put forward to have the committe made up of 3 from the CB and 3 from the Clubs but it got no seconder.

Its fairly clear from above that the CB will get their preferred man for the job and the club committe members will only be bystanders!

Daysha · 14-09-2011 1:57pm

According to John A Murphy the sub-committee had their first meeting last night and there's already been a bit of movement. Fergal Hartley has ruled himself out and John Allen's name is now doing the rounds a lot more than it had been.

PTH2009 · 14-09-2011 4:19pm

Daysha wrote: »

According to John A Murphy the sub-committee had their first meeting last night and there's already been a bit of movement. Fergal Hartley has ruled himself out and John Allen's name is now doing the rounds a lot more than it had been.

would love john allen getting the job would really give Waterford Hurling a boost but with Hartley out of the race who is there really, Michael Ryan, Jim Greene, Kevin Ryan, Colm Bonnor etc

premierstone · 14-09-2011 4:26pm

Dont think Colm Bonner would be a good choice at all, he didnt exactly cover himself in glory with Wexford and from my understanding there was quite a bit of unrest and apathy in Wexford, yes he was successfull with WIT in fitzgibbon, but look what happened the last time that was used as a good baromoter!

mccarthy37 · 14-09-2011 5:15pm

Look at how successful Anthony Daly has been with Dublin and he didn't cover himself in glory with his native county first time round. If Davy does get the Clare job you never know he might achieve great success with them and now the big question for us is who will be our next manager, with all this talk about money being tight our options are limited. Lets hope its a good choice.

Mountainlad · 14-09-2011 6:11pm

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Look at how successful Anthony Daly has been with Dublin and he didn't cover himself in glory with his native county first time round. If Davy does get the Clare job you never know he might achieve great success with them and now the big question for us is who will be our next manager, with all this talk about money being tight our options are limited. Lets hope its a good choice.

Don't agree. Poor enough Clare side, he got them within touching distance of an all-ireland final in 2005, besat game Cork got all year. Both 2005, and 2006 they beat Wexford comfortably. In 2007 (under Considine), they lost to Limerick with a pretty poor performance. Showed how good a job Daly was doing.

As for John Allen, I heard him on newstalk, someone asked would he take the Waterford job and he said 'Theres been no offers made to me, so as far as I know theres no interest in me'. That was Sunday night, (actually it wa on Rte take your point). The important thing was he did not by any means say no.

premierstone · 14-09-2011 6:19pm

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Look at how successful Anthony Daly has been with Dublin and he didn't cover himself in glory with his native county first time round. If Davy does get the Clare job you never know he might achieve great success with them and now the big question for us is who will be our next manager, with all this talk about money being tight our options are limited. Lets hope its a good choice.

He did a fine job with Clare and was unfairly compared to the 95 and 97 teams which were in fairness a once in a generation team for Clare, the Dublin county board would have had their choice of a huge number of big names and they choose Daly, rightly, so they obviously recognised what a fine job he had done with a fairly limited Clare team.

Cake Man · 14-09-2011 6:33pm

Would love to get John Allen, have been saying it for a while. I'd respect his opinion as he has a sound knowledge of the game. Again though, that may bring financial implications into play.

That's very encouraging to hear he hasn't actually come out and said he wasn't interested or ruled himself out so fingers crossed. Fergal opting out is a surprise. I wonder would he be interested in a selector role if offered.

Professey Chin · 14-09-2011 6:36pm

Allen never actually even occoured to me

Cant say id be unhappy if we got him though

hurler on de ditch · 14-09-2011 9:27pm

Jeddah wrote: »

Looking at the make up of the committee tasked with coming up with the recommedendation for the next manager , i wouldnt be too confident in all the people appointed. There should have been people with better hurling pedigree than the Chairman , Secretary & Treasurer. Would have liked to have seen some respected former players involved in process.

absolutely but no way CRONISM IS BEST LEFT 2 CRONIES

The blue blaa · 14-09-2011 9:59pm

John Allen would be a great man to get in, we'd have a someone that actually won an all-ireland as a manager and understands how tactics are to be used

Jeddah · 15-09-2011 9:59am

The blue blaa wrote: »

John Allen would be a great man to get in, we'd have a someone that actually won an all-ireland as a manager and understands how tactics are to be used

Lads my recollection of John Allens management with Cork was that he took over after being a selector under Donal O Grady and basically kept things ticking over as they had been. In fact alot of people say that at that time it was the Cork Senior players that were running the team and the reason the players liked him so much was that because he let them.

Wouldnt be entirely impressed if he was appointed , there are better options within the county , eventhough they might not be the marquee names we are hearing.

Deise 2012 · 15-09-2011 11:48am

Eoin Murphy has refused to close the door on his Waterford career. The 2006 All-Star suffered a fractured skull playing for his club in April. The injury meant he missed out playing with Waterford's {HURLERS} this year but he has made a return to club action. The Shamrocks are out of this years championship so but he has said that he will keep in good shape over the winter & decide early in the new year whether he still have the appetite to go on playing inter-county hurling.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100002598527220

Could be some good news for who ever takes over from Davy.

Mountainlad · 15-09-2011 11:52am

Good to hear that about Murph.

Here are the weekends quarter-final fixtures, Date and venue (no times)

Saturday 17/09/2011

Mount Sion V Ballyduff Upper
Lismore V Tallow

@ Fraher Field

De La Salle v Passage

@ Walsh Park

Sunday 18/09/2011

Ballygunner v Fourmilewater

@ Fraher Field

I believe the game on Sunday is at 6.30

http://www.sportsmanager.ie/cake/gaa2/waterford/competitionFixturesResults/19659/s_h_c_finals

ArtVandelay76 · 15-09-2011 2:54pm

Jeddah wrote: »

Lads my recollection of John Allens management with Cork was that he took over after being a selector under Donal O Grady and basically kept things ticking over as they had been. In fact alot of people say that at that time it was the Cork Senior players that were running the team and the reason the players liked him so much was that because he let them.

Wouldnt be entirely impressed if he was appointed , there are better options within the county , eventhough they might not be the marquee names we are hearing.

I'd have the same reservations myself about him, he took over a team on top of their game and just kept them doing what they had been doing the previous couple of years, but then again who knows he could be the right man for the job.
Sounds like Michael Ryan will go for the job again.
Waterford job for Ryan?

MICHAEL RYAN has admitted that he’s considering letting his name go forward for the Waterford hurling manager’s post.

Ryan, who guided De La Salle to county and Munster club glory in 2010, has been nominated for the position by his club Fourmilewater. “I’m seriously considering it to be honest,” said Ryan. “Supporters are always asking me and I’m a Waterford man at the end of the day.”
Ryan boasts an impressive CV and served as selector alongside Justin McCarthy when Waterford won the league and Munster championship in 2007.
In 2000, he was selector/coach with the Waterford Under-21 football team that scored a shock replay victory over Kerry in Killarney. And, as manager of the Waterford women’s football team, he masterminded five All-Ireland successes and was also involved with the victorious Laois (2001) and Dublin (2010) teams.
Ryan also took charge of the successful Munster interprovincial hurling team in 2007 and masterminded 10 All-Ireland women’s club titles for his native Ballymacarbry between 1987 and 1998.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0915/1224304141776.html

Mountainlad · 15-09-2011 3:14pm

You can be sure Michael Ryan will go forward again. What's changed since last year, other than he doesn't have club commitments tieing him down.

Suprised Hartley isn't going for it. The only contenders now are Michael Ryan and John Allen in my view. Both have impressive credentials, and both have some sceptism surrounding past achievements to (were both Cork and De La Salle that good that anyone could have managed them?). It's intriguing, couldn't tell ya to be honest who I'd prefer, but I would say that I've had either of them ahead of Fitzgerald so I'll probably be happy enough one way or another!

PTH2009 · 15-09-2011 5:31pm

John Allen has the job if he wants it imo but have a feeling hes going to come out and rule himself out of the race.

lovelypoint · 15-09-2011 6:19pm

Interesting time, what with the myriad of canditates being ruled in and out. Sorry to see Fergal rule himself out so early, but suppose it is for the best, although I do hope both himself and Flynn, are involved in some capacity this year with Waterford.

Not surprised to see John Allen being linked with the job, and could see him being the next senior manager easily, both from his point of view and also the county boards (money excepted).

One things for sure, we need a good man over the next few years both willing and able to put into place the needed structures for future success. Think a lot of this will come down to the hunger and drive of the canditates selected, and hard to know who is the man for the job without hearing them have their say. I think this is something people easily forget, in an eagerness to scrutinise managerial cv's, but past achievements are only so much of an indicator of future success.

comeraghs · 15-09-2011 7:49pm

Has Donal O'Grady come out & said he isn't interested! He'd be a great manager .... far better than John Allen if we go for an outsider.

What about Kevin Ryan? has he said yes or no?

Ml Ryan wasn't all that popular with the DLS players & I don't think he has what it takes to take us onto the next level ... ie challenging Tipp & KK

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

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