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"IF" a United Ireland did happen...(Mod warning in OP, stay on topic!))

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  • 14-08-2014 1:25pm
    #1
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭


    Does Republican Sinn Fiens strategy of a federal Ireland with four different parliaments not seem more fair to Unionist instead of being out breathed by Catholics (assuming for arguments sake Catholics want a UI) and being shoved into one & being ruled from Dublin?

    Mod warning:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93924363&postcount=464

    How this thread has ended up as another "who started it" one, I don't know, but that isn't the subject matter. The subject is the future and the possibility of a United Ireland, not repeating the same arguments about who started the Troubles.


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    #2
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    DarkyHughes wrote: »
    Does Republican Sinn Fiens strategy of a federal Ireland with four different parliaments not seem more fair to Unionist instead of being out breathed by Catholics (assuming for arguments sake Catholics want a UI) and being shoved into one & being ruled from Dublin?
    It seems protestants are being out bred by catholics any way.

    Don't make the mistake of protestant = unionist, catholic = nationalist though, that isn't as largely true as it once was. Many catholics seem to be turing their back on the idea of a UI, moreso than protestants turning their back on unionism.


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    #3
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    It seems protestants are being out bred by catholics any way.

    Don't make the mistake of protestant = unionist, catholic = nationalist though, that isn't as largely true as it once was. Many catholics seem to be turing their back on the idea of a UI, moreso than protestants turning their back on unionism.

    i kniw that but just for arguments sake say Catholic did = nationalist or even if the UK just decided to piss off out of the place again for arguments sake.. Which deal do you think unionist would prefer RSF federal idea or the Provos being ruled from Dublin idea.

    I remember Ruari O'braidgh was having secret discussions with UVF & UDA leaders during the 75 ceasefire when the federal Ireland idea was Provo policy in the mid 70's & they said they'd rather take that deal than the Dublin government one, these discussions were going well until that excuse for a human being Conor C O'Brien blew the whistle on the discussion & we had 20 more years of bloodshed


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    #4
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    DarkyHughes wrote: »
    i kniw that but just for arguments sake say Catholic did = nationalist or even if the UK just decided to piss off out of the place again for arguments sake.. Which deal do you think unionist would prefer RSF federal idea or the Provos being ruled from Dublin idea.

    I remember Ruari O'braidgh was having secret discussions with UVF & UDA leaders during the 75 ceasefire when the federal Ireland idea was Provo policy in the mid 70's & they said they'd rather take that deal than the Dublin government one, these discussions were going well until that excuse for a human being Conor C O'Brien blew the whistle on the discussion & we had 20 more years of bloodshed
    For arguments sake, I don't speak for unionists but I would imagine they would prefer NI to be an autonomous region with it's current borders within a united Ireland. Similar to Scotland in the UK or Quebec in Canada.


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    #5
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    For arguments sake, I don't speak for unionists but I would imagine they would prefer NI to be an autonomous region with it's current borders within a united Ireland. Similar to Scotland in the UK or Quebec in Canada.

    Glad you agree.. I think unionists would prefer that as well.


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    #6
    valor rorghulis
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭valor rorghulis


    DarkyHughes wrote: »
    Does Republican Sinn Fiens strategy of a federal Ireland with four different parliaments not seem more fair to Unionist instead of being out breathed by Catholics (assuming for arguments sake Catholics want a UI) and being shoved into one & being ruled from Dublin?

    No, if there was a united Ireland Northern Ireland, Stormont & power sharing would remain, it would just fall under Irish instead of UK jurisdiction

    There's no logic to eire nua whatsoever. It was just disingenuously put forward as an idea to look like an effort was being made to accommodate unionists without appearing to adhere to British influence

    Which is actually quite ironic considering the formalisation of the four provinces as we know them was a British thing..


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    #7
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    DarkyHughes wrote: »
    Does Republican Sinn Fiens strategy of a federal Ireland with four different parliaments not seem more fair to Unionist instead of being out breathed by Catholics (assuming for arguments sake Catholics want a UI) and being shoved into one & being ruled from Dublin?

    The capital of Ulster was to be Dungannon or something, hardly a realistic strategy.


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    #8
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    valor rorghulis wrote: »
    No, if there was a united Ireland Northern Ireland, Stormont & power sharing would remain, it would just fall under Irish instead of UK jurisdiction

    There's no logic to eire nua whatsoever. It was just disingenuously put forward as an idea to look like an effort was being made to accommodate unionists without appearing to adhere to British influence

    Which is actually quite ironic considering the formalisation of the four provinces as we know them was a British thing..

    It says that in the GFA?

    So basically yes, they would rather the RSF idea just needs to be tweaked in a few places to satisfy everyone.


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    #9
    getzls
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 806 ✭✭✭getzls


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »

    Don't make the mistake of protestant = unionist, catholic = nationalist though, that isn't as largely true as it once was. Many catholics seem to be turing their back on the idea of a UI, moreso than protestants turning their back on unionism.

    Good post.
    What Republicans used to post, 50% plus one was always utter bollocks.

    Say if the population was 50-50 on a religious breakdown, lets estimate the way they would vote.

    96% of Protestants would vote to stay in the U.K. so that makes 48% for the U.K.

    50% of Catholics vote to remain part of the U.K. then that's 25% of the vote.

    Add them to-gether and that makes 73% for the U.K.

    I can never see a U.I.,and most certainly not in my lifetime.


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    #10
    daviecronin
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭daviecronin


    getzls wrote: »
    Good post.
    What Republicans used to post, 50% plus one was always utter bollocks.

    Say if the population was 50-50 on a religious breakdown, lets estimate the way they would vote.

    96% of Protestants would vote to stay in the U.K. so that makes 48% for the U.K.

    50% of Catholics vote to remain part of the U.K. then that's 25% of the vote.

    Add them to-gether and that makes 73% for the U.K.

    I can never see a U.I.,and most certainly not in my lifetime.

    You're agreement makes no sense. As you should know its not just Northern Ireland who vote on and UI but all of Ireland. I personally feel a UI Ireland is coming and soon


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    #11
    daviecronin
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭daviecronin


    argument **


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    #12
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    daviecronin wrote: »
    You're agreement makes no sense. As you should know its not just Northern Ireland who vote on and UI but all of Ireland. I personally feel a UI Ireland is coming and soon

    The vote in the Republic is only relevant if northern Ireland votes yes to a united Ireland


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    #13
    daviecronin
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭daviecronin


    junder wrote: »
    The vote in the Republic is only relevant if northern Ireland votes yes to a united Ireland

    It's the whole of Ireland that votes on it regardless


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    #14
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    daviecronin wrote: »
    It's the whole of Ireland that votes on it regardless

    No, it's the decision of the people of N.I., first and foremost. If they decided to go for a UI then we would have to decide on whether we, the RoI, wanted it. Otherwise, you could have the absurd idea of a UI being forced on the people of N.I. against he wishes of the majority, across all communities.


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    #15
    icecold1066
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 38 ✭icecold1066


    Everyone with a brain accepts the principle of democratic consent.
    NI will only be part of an UI with the consent of the majority of the population of NI.
    Then of course the people of the Republic of Ireland would have to have their say if they want NI to be part of an UI.


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    #16
    getzls
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 806 ✭✭✭getzls


    daviecronin wrote: »
    You're agreement makes no sense. As you should know its not just Northern Ireland who vote on and UI but all of Ireland. I personally feel a UI Ireland is coming and soon

    I do know this. ;)

    Both Northern Ireland and the Republic have to agree. The Republic gets a vote also, if necessary.

    Which of course will likely never happen.:)


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    #17
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    Okay say if the Scottish vote goes 51 - 49% in favor of independence the whole of Scotland gets independence or do places with large Unionist majorities remain in the UK like here in 1921?


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    #18
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    DarkyHughes wrote: »
    Okay say if the Scottish vote goes 51 - 49% in favor of independence the whole of Scotland gets independence or do places with large Unionist majorities remain in the UK like here in 1921?

    Comparing the campaign for independence in Scotland, to what went on in Ireland almost 100 years ago, makes absolutely no sense. The 'No' side is comfortably ahead anyway, by as much as 10% according to some polls, so it'll be a clear win for the 'No' side.


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    #19
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    Berserker wrote: »
    Comparing the campaign for independence in Scotland, to what went on in Ireland almost 100 years ago, makes absolutely no sense. The 'No' side is comfortably ahead anyway, by as much as 10% according to some polls, so it'll be a clear win for the 'No' side.

    I'm not comparing it to what went on 100 years ago here, I don't need to go back 100 years we still have the same situation here today.

    Still doesn't answer my question tho. Will Scotland be partitioned if it goes yes by a slight majority?


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    #20
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    icecold1066 wrote: »
    Everyone with a brain accepts the principle of democratic consent.
    NI will only be part of an UI with the consent of the majority of the population of NI.
    Then of course the people of the Republic of Ireland would have to have their say if they want NI to be part of an UI.

    I don't accept its as a principle no more than I would accept the principle of democratic consent for Eastern Ukraine, or for a partioned Scotland. Anyone with a brain accepts the idea of partitioning Ireland on sectarian grounds was utterly wrong. It has to be accepted rather as a political reality.


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    #21
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    T runner wrote: »
    I don't accept its as a principle no more than I would accept the principle of democratic consent for Eastern Ukraine, or for a partioned Scotland. Anyone with a brain accepts the idea of partitioning Ireland on sectarian grounds was utterly wrong. It has to be accepted rather as a political reality.

    So if you dont accept the principal of democratic consent as laid out in the gfa, what is your ( realistic) alternative


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    #22
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    Berserker wrote: »
    No, it's the decision of the people of N.I., first and foremost. If they decided to go for a UI then we would have to decide on whether we, the RoI, wanted it. Otherwise, you could have the absurd idea of a UI being forced on the people of N.I. against he wishes of the majority, across all communities.



    Kind of how partion was forced onto the people of Ireland after the 1918 general election in Ireland by the British despite the vast majority of the country voting for independance.


    Or why were Fermanagh and Tyrone ever forced under Stormont rule when a majority of both counties were also in favour of being with Ireland?


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    #23
    Bob Z
    Registered Users Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭Bob Z


    valor rorghulis wrote: »

    Which is actually quite ironic considering the formalisation of the four provinces as we know them was a British thing..

    Really?


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    #24
    Chrissybhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Chrissybhoy


    The 32 County's should have a say in any referendum for a 32 Republic ultimately it's there land governed by the British.


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    #25
    getzls
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 806 ✭✭✭getzls


    Chrissybhoy wrote: »
    The 32 County's should have a say in any referendum for a 32 Republic ultimately it's there land governed by the British.
    No it's not.:cool:


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    #26
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Chrissybhoy wrote: »
    The 32 County's should have a say in any referendum for a 32 Republic ultimately it's there land governed by the British.
    Daft. I suppose that England should also be voting on Scottish independence this week, with a majority deciding, then?

    Were there to be a referendum on a UI it would almost certainly be akin to the vote over Cyprian reunification - both sides having separate referendum and if both passed, then so would the initiative. And as it turned out one didn't.

    Thing is too, that I would not be so certain that it would pass in the South either. The economic costs involved would likely cause many a southern armchair nationalist reconsider the issue, when it finally came to the moment of truth. It's easy to support unification and be a 'patriot' when it's the long finger.


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    #27
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,594 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    getzls wrote: »
    No it's not.:cool:

    It is their land. It's Irish land that is occupied/governed by a foreign country/kingdom. Nothing will change that fact.


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    #28
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    walshb wrote: »
    It is their land. It's Irish land that is occupied/governed by a foreign country/kingdom. Nothing will change that fact.
    Tell you what, let's all go up to Tara and take turns stepping on Lia Fáil. If the stone shouts out someones name when they do, then we will have someone with a legitimate claim to calling it their land.


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    #29
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,594 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Tell you what, let's all go up to Tara and take turns stepping on Lia Fáil. If the stone shouts out someones name when they do, then we will have someone with a legitimate claim to calling it their land.

    Wha?


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    #30
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    walshb wrote: »
    Wha?
    Surely an expert like you on Ireland would know what I meant.


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    #31
    Chrissybhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Chrissybhoy


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Daft. I suppose that England should also be voting on Scottish independence this week, with a majority deciding, then?

    Were there to be a referendum on a UI it would almost certainly be akin to the vote over Cyprian reunification - both sides having separate referendum and if both passed, then so would the initiative. And as it turned out one didn't.

    Thing is too, that I would not be so certain that it would pass in the South either. The economic costs involved would likely cause many a southern armchair nationalist reconsider the issue, when it finally came to the moment of truth. It's easy to support unification and be a 'patriot' when it's the long finger.

    Scotland entered into a personal and political union with England. Don't think Ireland did this. As long as There is British occupation in the north it will breath resistance. It's unfair to say the 32 county's shouldn't have a say when
    The only reason unionists are in the north is because of English and Scottish Protestants through plantation. Open to correction


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