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A random waffle thread

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,979 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Anyone here involved in supplying PCs for charitable purposes? .....

    I reckon there must be quite a number of people who could do with a simple PC for light personal use but cannot afford one ....

    .... just wondering .....

    Do the likes of St V de P supply such items?


  • Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭Kilnababe


    Need 1 for a special needs child. Any offers greatly appreciated.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,885 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Anyone here involved in supplying PCs for charitable purposes? .....

    I reckon there must be quite a number of people who could do with a simple PC for light personal use but cannot afford one ....

    .... just wondering .....

    Do the likes of St V de P supply such items?

    I managed the upgrade of over 5000 PCs around Europe before and had tried to donate them to charity rather than having to pay to get them destroyed, it was an absolute nightmare, the amount of paperwork involved in getting Data Protection and Personal Injury (in case it blew up) meant it wasn't possible, in fact I couldn't even manage to get the paper work sorted to allow employees take the old kit, it was criminal to see it all go off to be shredded, although if ever want to see something cool watch a PC be shredded :)

    You could try your local recycling centre, you might be able to get something there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 47 John from ennis


    Kilnababe wrote: »
    Need 1 for a special needs child. Any offers greatly appreciated.
    there are a lot of people collecting these for charitable purposes,mainly there own,similar to mobile phones where if you collect 180 old phones give them to x you can get an ipad.

    its the circuit boards people are after,big business these days.

    i got this info from a shop owner in ennis last week,who has stopped giving broken mobile phones out to people collecting them,as he said,charity begins at home :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,585 ✭✭✭✭Lady Chatterton


    Clareman wrote: »
    You could try your local recycling centre, you might be able to get something there.
    As far as I know, Recycling Centres don't allow people to take away PCs anymore because of issues with Data Protection.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,979 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Clareman wrote: »
    I managed the upgrade of over 5000 PCs around Europe before and had tried to donate them to charity rather than having to pay to get them destroyed, it was an absolute nightmare, the amount of paperwork involved in getting Data Protection and Personal Injury (in case it blew up) meant it wasn't possible, in fact I couldn't even manage to get the paper work sorted to allow employees take the old kit, it was criminal to see it all go off to be shredded, although if ever want to see something cool watch a PC be shredded :)

    You could try your local recycling centre, you might be able to get something there.

    Yes, that too is my 'take' on the present situation.

    Data protection concerns are easily handled ..... remove storage media for separate certified 'cleaning' if the original owners have not already removed the media.

    I have seen - being 'dumped' in the recycle centre - PCs that are much better spec than what I often use and knowing these will be destroyed, angers me.

    I asked the question because I thought there might be some local/Clare group, who take such PCs before they are dumped, and recycle them for reuse by those who cannot afford new PCs.

    I haven't bought a new PC for myself in the last 10 years .... mostly use discarded (allegedly broken) kit from others, with the exception of a cheap laptop I bought a few years ago.
    For instance I am typing this on a four-core ex-gaming machine which the owner was dumping because he was told the motherboard was faulty.
    It wasn't!
    It has been working an average of 18 hours per day for the last two years for me without a hitch!

    There are also a large number of well-specified machines being 'recycled' by companies, which would work well for years to come, if put into reuse.

    IMO, it is a disgrace that such machines are being broken down and not reused.

    I would dearly love to see a charitable group set up (if it does not exist) to refurbish/recondition these perfectly good PCs for reuse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,585 ✭✭✭✭Lady Chatterton


    I would dearly love to see a charitable group set up (if it does not exist) to refurbish/recondition these perfectly good PCs for reuse.

    John, The Jack and Jill Children's foundation in Kildare is a charity that accept donations of mobile phones, digital cameras, computers Pentium 4 or later, laptops Pentium 4 or later, flat screen monitors and laser / inkjet printer cartridges.

    They refurbish items where possible and they ship them to developing countries, any monies they receive are then ploughed back into services to sick/disabled children in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,979 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    MrsD007 wrote: »
    John, The Jack and Jill Children's foundation in Kildare is a charity that accept donations of mobile phones, digital cameras, computers Pentium 4 or later, laptops Pentium 4 or later, flat screen monitors and laser / inkjet printer cartridges.

    They refurbish items were possible and they ship them to developing countries, any monies they receive are then ploughed back into services to sick/disabled children in Ireland.

    Thanks, MrsD ...... I had in mind something more local ..... by and for people in Clare.

    Why ship PCs off to foreign parts when there are people on our doorstep who could benefit from them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,585 ✭✭✭✭Lady Chatterton


    Thanks, MrsD ...... I had in mind something more local ..... by and for people in Clare.

    Why ship PCs off to foreign parts when there are people on our doorstep who could benefit from them?
    As far as I know, Jack and Jill started their recycling initiative during the Celtic Tiger years when lots of people were upgrading laptops and mobiles on a regular basis, there probably wasn't a market for second hand products in Ireland so they exported to the developing countries but I definitely think there could be a market now.

    I've tried to donate good quality PCs and electrical goods to local charities in the past and they told me that it cost them money to have electrical stuff tested so they weren't particularly interested. I ended up giving most of the stuff away to a cousin of mine who was heading away to college.

    I remember recently we had a chat here on the Clare forum about children's toys and it was the same there too, charities weren't interested in accepting them, even if they were in good condition.

    I think your idea to set up something locally is a great idea and if it was in place I'd definitely to support it.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,885 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    The problem with the whole Data Protection thing is getting a valid data destruction certificate, the data might be wiped enough but all a company needs is for 1 piece of information to go missing and they have a PR nightmare, if they are managing call centre work for other companies this can lead to even more problems. For example, if a company was to donate their old PCs to charity they can either wipe the systems themselves or allow the charity to do it for them while supplying a certificate of data destruction. If they decide to do it themselves they'll have to employ someone to wipe the systems, this will cause an increase in costs for the project which no-one will be willing to take, if the want to take the cert off the charity, what are they going to do if there's a failure? they can hardly sue a charity.

    This is just the data side of things, licensing can be a nightmare as well, companies often have corporate agreements in place which means the OS or anything else is only for their use, then you have sign-off for liability for any damage caused by the system, then you have the companies asset registar to worry about as well.

    As I said, I spent a lot of time trying to get this type of thing to work and it was a nightmare, it seems like a simple thing of just donating a system but it turns out to be a complete nightmare, I think I had to sign off on over 3500 desktops and 1500 laptops being destroyed rather than being put to better use.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,979 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Clareman wrote: »
    The problem with the whole Data Protection thing is getting a valid data destruction certificate, the data might be wiped enough but all a company needs is for 1 piece of information to go missing and they have a PR nightmare, if they are managing call centre work for other companies this can lead to even more problems. For example, if a company was to donate their old PCs to charity they can either wipe the systems themselves or allow the charity to do it for them while supplying a certificate of data destruction. If they decide to do it themselves they'll have to employ someone to wipe the systems, this will cause an increase in costs for the project which no-one will be willing to take, if the want to take the cert off the charity, what are they going to do if there's a failure? they can hardly sue a charity.

    This is just the data side of things, licensing can be a nightmare as well, companies often have corporate agreements in place which means the OS or anything else is only for their use, then you have sign-off for liability for any damage caused by the system, then you have the companies asset registar to worry about as well.

    As I said, I spent a lot of time trying to get this type of thing to work and it was a nightmare, it seems like a simple thing of just donating a system but it turns out to be a complete nightmare, I think I had to sign off on over 3500 desktops and 1500 laptops being destroyed rather than being put to better use.

    The Data Protection thing is applicable when the PCs are sent to a "Recycle" centre too.
    All companies are responsible for the protection of the data, regardless where they send the PC ..... recycle or reuse.
    Most I have seen physically destroy the HDDs.

    For a company willing to participate, I am certain that a secure wiping of the drives could be arranged with little cost to them ..... a volunteer from the charity instead of an employee for instance.

    Where there is a will there is a way!

    For those companies who cannot pass on their software licence, let them remove any stickers with licence codes from the PC.
    Job done!
    No come-back on them.
    Because there will be no software in the PCs at all .... either no HDD (if destroyed) or blank HDD if securely wiped, I cannot see any problem from the corporate side of things.

    Another aspect I did not consider until now ...... I believe there is a decision that used software can be sold now in the EU.
    If that is correct then licences for older software could be passed on to a charity for continued use.
    Anyway, that is not a real problem.

    There is a great wealth of software that is open source and available, and this could be used without any problems on such machines.

    So, from a practical point of view, the only problem I see is a possible shortage of HDDs ...... which I feel sure could be addressed by other means.

    So that covers the data and the software.
    The rest - within the company - is similar to what they do when sending hardware to the recycle centre, so little or no change there.

    I am not saying there would not be problems or bumps in the road; I am saying that those bumps are just that ..... and can be overcome in partnership with the donors of the PCs.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,885 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    I agree 100% with you and you'd imagine that a company would be only delighted to help out a charity or something, the internal politics within a large organisation was a nightmare, another issue I had was that when we were upgrading all the systems we were replacing CRTs with flat screens, from Dell we got a new monitor cable and 2 power cords with every system, meant we have 10,000 power cords and 5000 monitor cables, no use to anyone in the company as the ones that were already in the desks were fine, I wanted to sell them on ebay for €1 and €5 each and give the money to either the Sports and Social or a Charity, that wasn't allowed either, they were eventually just thrown in the bin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,396 ✭✭✭ger664



    For those companies who cannot pass on their software licence, let them remove any stickers with licence codes from the PC.
    Job done!
    If there is a sticker on the PC its most likely OEM software and is tied to the machine. A company removing the sticker and using on another system would be breaking the license agreement.

    The vast majority of PC come with the OS as OEM software so it can be passed on with the system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,994 ✭✭✭Shapey Fiend


    Computers, monitors, tablets and phones are getting cheaper every year. People are buying them and discarding them with increased frequency. I don't think there are that many people who can't get a hold of one cheaply if they check adverts.ie or done deal. Or even ask a relation if they've an old one.

    It's like car scrappage. At a certain point it makes more sense to destroy the thing and recycle the metals and plastics to make something new.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,885 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    ger664 wrote: »
    If there is a sticker on the PC its most likely OEM software and is tied to the machine. A company removing the sticker and using on another system would be breaking the license agreement.

    The vast majority of PC come with the OS as OEM software so it can be passed on with the system.

    For large corporations they'll have a central agreement with Microsoft, they'll probably tie in Office and loads of other stuff as well, manufactures will always put an OEM sticker on the box but that'll be put on with the agreement that it won't be used and the company will get a rebate on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,979 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Another aspect of the software licencing situation is that those PCs refurbished for reuse without software licences could easily be built with a different (open source) OS and office software suite.
    So PCs that would otherwise be regarded as disposable because of the cost of software for them, could be reused without cost.

    Given the use that most PCs get .... most from what I can see anyway ..... older hardware is not the problem as it is quite capable of doing what most want ...... general surfing, email, Youtube, instant messaging, Skype etc. .....

    If the hardware is capable, it seems 'sinful' to me to destroy it.

    For a scheme of 'refurbish for reuse' to be successful I suppose a known-named charity would need to take the lead to give it some credence, at least in the initial phase.

    I feel confident that there would be willing knowledgeable helpers prepared to give their time to such a venture.

    If anyone hears about something along those lines in Clare please do post.

    Thank you all for the discussion ;)


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,885 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    By and large, corporations will keep their PCs for 3 years and will keep about 1 step back in relation to Operating Systems, so a computer being upgraded next month would probably getting Windows 7 installed and would be in place until 2016, at which stage it would be thrown out replaced with a new system, the system that would be thrown out now would have been installed in 2007 and might have had Vista installed.

    To get approval for the systems to be used for anything besides Business use you would need to get approval from he heads of the project, IT Infrastructure, Information Security, Desktop Support, Finance and whoever the Site Lead would be for that site, each of those people would probably have a number of criteria before approving anything, more than likely none of them would approve without everyone else approving first and would probably put a cavet in place something like "only if xxxx approves", it's a complete and utter nightmare to get setup, trust me, I tried to do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,585 ✭✭✭✭Lady Chatterton


    Clareman wrote: »
    By and large, corporations will keep their PCs for 3 years and will keep about 1 step back in relation to Operating Systems, so a computer being upgraded next month would probably getting Windows 7 installed and would be in place until 2016, at which stage it would be thrown out replaced with a new system, the system that would be thrown out now would have been installed in 2007 and might have had Vista installed.
    Clareman, Would you mind explaining that to me? Sorry, I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to IT stuff but I'm interested in what you've said there about companies staying one operating system behind. I would have thought a business, particularly a large multi-national would be keen to have the latest and best operating system available to them?

    I always thought Vista was complete crap, I thought XP or Windows 7 were both streets ahead.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,885 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Multi-nationals would have Core and Business applications that they have to support, core applications would be stuff like email, communicator (Lync), internet, business applications would be stuff like AS/400, Oracle, IP Phone. All of the applications will have a support team looking after them, license agreements, servers and will have to work on a corporate image. A corporate image will be a master copy of Windows that has been created to work on every model of PC in the business, they will usually be deployed by standard imaging solution (like Norton Ghost) or will have been put on the system when it was bought from the supplier. End users will not have full access to the computer, they won't be able to install stuff, copy files to certain areas, access certain websites, run applets on websites, etc. etc.

    I'll use Oracle as an example of where it get's complicated, but any application could be used really.

    An end user was to access Oracle Financials, they have the link saved in their favourites and access it from there. What happens is the company has an intranet server setup where people can access the financials software, to run it an applet like Jinitiator has to be installed, depending on the patch level of the server a different application will need to be used, the browser that is being used will also determine what happens. As users won't be able to just install whatever they want whenever they want it, the software will need to be installed somehow, this will be done via Systems Management Server (SMS). In order for the end user above to do their job they will need to have had Desktop Support have their PC installed with whatever OS necessary, the server will have to had been built and configured by Server Support, the Oracle Financials configured correctly by Business Applications Support, the OS and Browser patched to the required levels by IT Security and the relevant software installed by the Helpdesk.
    If 1 of these teams were to release an update that wasn't compatible with all the others, for example IT Security releases an IE patch that means that Jiniator doesn't launch, or Business Applications make a config change that means a different version of Jiniator is needed, or the Server team changes the server to limit connections or Desktop support releases a new OS with a completely different browser, it will mean you will have 1 (or many) users sitting unable to do their jobs, with this in mind, no changes will be made without agreement and testing from all parties. What will normally happen is IT Security will release patches to a test group first, if nothing breaks it'll go to the rest. If Bus Apps are going to need a new version they'll tell the Helpdesk and get the new version installed to all the people that had the old version.

    As most Support functions will have been outsourced there will be a lot of political wrangling between teams (i.e. that's not my job it's yours, or that's not in our contract that'll cost more) or financial penalties for breaking stuff, as well as the fact that everything has to be in line with Global standards within the company, change will be relatively slow to happen. What will normally happen is that IT Support will get the latest OS themselves and start playing with it, once everything seems to be ok, some users within the organisation will get the new version, usually other support teams like Bus Apps, they'll then test the functionality of their parts. Once they seem ok with it, some users, maybe managers who can do without access for a while or maybe even a test station setup for teams, will get the new systems, once all issues have be ironed out a mass roll out will happen to the whole company but if a major issue arrises on a site it will put everything on hold.

    If I was to use Windows 8 (Oct. 2012 release) as an example timeline, Desktop Support install it on their own systems in Oct 2012 (probably before in beta version), early new year other support teams get it, next Summer Business Applications get it, next October might start testing with someone users/manager on an ad hoc basis (e.g. some manager gets the latest and greatest laptop not compatible with Corporate image and needs something ASAP so someone installed Windows 8), back end support starts to be developed around the same time (SMS deployment solutions, patching etc.), summer 2014 the back office support is in place and a early version of an image is ready, this might be rolled out to a new team first, as issues are identified they are fixed and incorporated into the new image, once no more "major" issues are found and more and more roll outs are done, maybe start of 2015, the new image is deemed company standard, any new systems come with it, as there's a mix of Old and New, a plan has to be put in place to ensure all systems are the same so a mop up plan is put in place, so by Oct. 2015 most systems will now be on the Windows 8 image, but Windows 9 will be out then and the circle will start all over again.

    Some very weird issues that I have come across myself in the past are a certain Intel processor that wouldn't work with Oracle Financials because of a conflict, Windows 2000 network cards being set to 100 Full duplex by default which meant that network ports in the switch would keep turning themselves off, a version of Norton Ghost that would sent packets of an image to the entire network taking down the whole network, a version of Jiniator that would delete users signatures in Outlook, all issues like this would need to be resolved ASAP and can cost a company millions very quickly, hence why companies would be reluctant to change :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,585 ✭✭✭✭Lady Chatterton


    Thanks very much for all that information Clareman, it's very interesting! You went to a lot of bother there!


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭Keano


    Oracle and Windows 7 pain in the neck. Had a great setup with an old version of FF and Oracle on an XP machine that worked smoothly. That's all gone now :(


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,885 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    It's not interesting at all actually, very boring corporate world IT. I just remembered years ago deciding to install Linux for myself in work, it was better than actually working, I installed it and forgot about it because there was an awful lot of virus alert warnings showing up on desktops, then on servers on the site I was on, then there were more and more warnings on other sites as well, all of IT were running around the place like headless chickens trying to figure out what was happening, was there a DoS attack or something happening, I put 2 and 2 together and turned off the linux machine, hey presto the problem goes away, for some reason the box was doing a network broadcast and all the windows based systems saw the traffic as a virus, of course I was assigned responsibility of doing a RCA (Root Cause Analysis), the RCA said that someone took advantage of the Guest Wifi network and was probing the network looking to gain entry :D


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,885 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Oracle and Windows 7 pain in the neck. Had a great setup with an old version of FF and Oracle on an XP machine that worked smoothly. That's all gone now :(

    The way Oracle and Windows get on you'd swear their parent companies didn't like each other.............


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭Keano


    Oh ya they are great friends!

    It's just the switching of the theme to basic when I launch Oracle, the little things bother me. Tried adding rule to jinititaor but still no luck!


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,885 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Isn't there a way of making Oracle Apps run in their own Virtual machine somehow? Can't remember how now but I remember trying it years ago


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭Keano


    Probably is but I'll live with the changes and hopefully stumble upon a FF hack that works.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,885 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Don't forget any script you do for Jinit will only work on 1 version, you've to do a different 1 for each 1 installed.

    Thank f**k I'm out of IT Support now, hated all those niggidly problems that you'd have to spend hours with users about


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,979 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Clareman wrote: »
    It's not interesting at all actually, very boring corporate world IT. I just remembered years ago deciding to install Linux for myself in work, it was better than actually working, I installed it and forgot about it because there was an awful lot of virus alert warnings showing up on desktops, then on servers on the site I was on, then there were more and more warnings on other sites as well, all of IT were running around the place like headless chickens trying to figure out what was happening, was there a DoS attack or something happening, I put 2 and 2 together and turned off the linux machine, hey presto the problem goes away, for some reason the box was doing a network broadcast and all the windows based systems saw the traffic as a virus, of course I was assigned responsibility of doing a RCA (Root Cause Analysis), the RCA said that someone took advantage of the Guest Wifi network and was probing the network looking to gain entry :D

    :D:D:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,585 ✭✭✭✭Lady Chatterton


    Okay, I know this is very very random but.........

    Am I the only person who misses the large sheet of mirrored glass that was on the old National Irish Bank building in *the Height? The Hearing Centre people removed it :mad::mad::mad:


    *(otherwise known as O'Connell Square)


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,885 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Was that mirrored glass? I always thought it was just shiney black stuff.

    When you're over-weight like me you're happy out with as many mirrored surfaces as possible being removed.


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