M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [advance works to commence shortly]

spacetweek · 04-09-2016 11:04pm

L1011 wrote: »

Clear cache if you're getting password issues

I'm being asked for the password even with browsers I never normally use.

L1011 · 05-09-2016 12:00am

spacetweek wrote: »

I'm being asked for the password even with browsers I never normally use.

Very odd. Not really interested in to doing site debugging for them, but they may have allowed IP ranges or some form of georestriction; not that either make sense.

marno21 · 05-09-2016 2:18am

spacetweek wrote: »

This video (at 50:15) confirms that the N21 part will only be D2AP (standard non-motorway DC) and the N69 element will be single carriageway. No motorway parts.

I saw that and I think it has to be a typo. The N21 as is west of the M20 is already over capacity for a T2DC. Surely won't be built for 2005 level of traffic

Treepole · 05-09-2016 9:45am

L1011 wrote: »

Very odd. Not really interested in to doing site debugging for them, but they may have allowed IP ranges or some form of georestriction; not that either make sense.

Have you tried actually clicking into the section titled "Provisional Corridor" or are you just talking about the site in general?

L1011 · 05-09-2016 10:44am

Treepole wrote: »

Have you tried actually clicking into the section titled "Provisional Corridor" or are you just talking about the site in general?

Yes - the PDFs come down fine for me.

rliston · 06-09-2016 1:24pm

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1190029071017256&id=100000305229703&set=ecnf.100000305229703&source=49

We should have more information soon. There's a meeting today at 2 where councillors are getting a briefing on the route.

Limerick74 · 06-09-2016 5:44pm

Looks like the project website is updated now foyneslimerick.ie

Irish_rat · 07-09-2016 11:28pm

marno21 wrote: »

I saw that and I think it has to be a typo. The N21 as is west of the M20 is already over capacity for a T2DC. Surely won't be built for 2005 level of traffic

The M28 is not a typo on the presentation so I would take it that the N21 section will be type 2 dual.

Very shortsighted IMO and traffic levels will only increase into the future.

marno21 · 08-09-2016 12:13am

Irish_rat wrote: »

The M28 is not a typo on the presentation so I would take it that the N21 section will be type 2 dual.

Very shortsighted IMO and traffic levels will only increase into the future.

Shortsighted doesn't even begin to describe it. Mainline N21 traffic levels already exceed the volume for a Type 2 DC.

Sounds to me like there's so little being committed to this roads programme that sacrifices have to be made.

Middle Man · 08-09-2016 12:59pm

marno21 wrote: »

Irish_rat wrote: »

The M28 is not a typo on the presentation so I would take it that the N21 section will be type 2 dual.

Very shortsighted IMO and traffic levels will only increase into the future.

Shortsighted doesn't even begin to describe it. Mainline N21 traffic levels already exceed the volume for a Type 2 DC.

Sounds to me like there's so little being committed to this roads programme that sacrifices have to be made.

Using reasonable traffic assumptions (2% annual traffic growth - approx 100% increase over 35 years (5 yrs procurement + 30 yrs operational life)), a motorway is well justified to Rathkeale and by the time the N21 to Abbeyfeale is considered, the traffic is likely to be 11,000+ along that stretch hence justifying a motorway there.

Penny pinching does not pay as this English example shows...

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Catthorpe_Interchange

pigtown · 08-09-2016 4:48pm

Shortened from the Route Selection Report
http://media.wix.com/ugd/1cba1b_29bd1a1841804ba9abb052089a460431.pdf
The May 2014 traffic surveys indicate that the existing N21 carries a flow of between 13,900 AADT east of Newcastle West to a maximum of 17,100 AADT east of Adare village.
The anticipated traffic flows on Route Corridor Options 2, 3 and 4 in Scheme Design Year 2039 range from a minimum of 14,250 AADT west of Adare on Route Corridor Option 4 to a maximum of 22,850AADT east of Adare on Route Corridor Option 4.
These flow volumes are within the ranges indicated for a Type 1 (Capacity 42,000 AADT) Dual Carriageway, but exceed the capacity of a Type 2 (Capacity 20,000 AADT) Dual Carriageway.
Also given that each of Route Corridor Options 2, 3 and 4 constitute a continuation of the existing M20 (an existing Type 1 Dual Carriageway motorway) it is recommended that the options along the N21 corridor should be developed as Type 1 Dual Carriageways at this stage of the project.

Irish_rat · 08-09-2016 6:06pm

Great stuff, that report is worth reading.

I'm surprised at the AADT recorded west of NCW, was expecting more of a drop-off.

My interest in roads stagnated with the economic turndown :pac: so out of curiosity I wanted to check the AADT figures. It's staggering now :eek:

Between J29 and J30 of the M7 where I commute almost daily it's very close to 40,000. On that pic it's 34K.

Then I looked at the figures on the M50 and N40, wow!

marno21 · 09-09-2016 7:02pm

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/215330/new-foynes-road-now-set-to-deviate-from-selected-route.html

spacetweek · 09-09-2016 10:24pm

marno21 wrote: »

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/215330/new-foynes-road-now-set-to-deviate-from-selected-route.html

The omission of a Croagh junction is perhaps a little surprising - but the Rathkeale junction will be close.

JeffK88 · 10-09-2016 10:33am

Would of thought they might of included a short spur of M20, so that when a M20 plan comes along it would be less disruptive and be forward thinking. Kinda like the original M9 spur.

Chris_5339762 · 10-09-2016 12:54pm

Kinda tricky to tie in, and since no-one knows whats happening with the M20 (build it, reactivate the plans, dump the plans and start again), they probably don't have any option.

Vanquished · 10-09-2016 3:25pm

Under the original M20 plan an interchange was to be constructed immediately west of the existing M20 J5 (see attached). As part of the shambolic and ultimately disastrous attempt to re-route the Adare bypass to the south of the village the interchange was moved further to the west.

The positioning of the future Adare junction will mean it'll be in relatively close proximity to a future M20 interchange. As the new N21 will lead inescapably on to the M20 at least a portion of the new road will have to come under motorway restrictions once the M20 is extended. Unless of course they decide to construct an elevated roundabout interchange between the two roads! :rolleyes:

JeffK88 · 10-09-2016 3:33pm

Looks like they'll be going back to the drawing board with the M20 so roll on another consultation. Forward thinking and Infrastructure in Ireland don't exactly go together like bread and butter.

marno21 · 10-09-2016 4:28pm

It's fairly sad and typically Irish that we're talking about this scheme being outdated before it's even put to tender.

They should have done the most future proofed thing here and built a short stretch of M20 from the proposed interchanged at Attyflin to the far side of Croom, taking in the dualling of the quite dangerous free-for-all Croom bypass. This would've meant proper connectivity around this area, meant the M20 was started and also saves the future year of road works when the brand new M21 will have to be torn up to put in the M20 interchange (which I am confident isn't too far away - we won't have the current clowns in power for ever).

Regarding the cross section of the new Adare-Rathkeale mainline, I would be fairly sure it will be Type 1 DC or Motorway, regardless of the TII presentation. The traffic levels east of Adare already exceed the capacity of a Type 2 DC (remember this standard is there as an equivilant to WS2 - would we build such a high traffic road as WS2?) - and this doesn't take into account the amount of people that use various rat runs to avoid Adare, once it's bypassed these will all try and use the new road - thereby increasing traffic levels on an already overcapacity road.

If we are building a motorway from Gort to Tuam then we surely have the cop on to realise that a motorway is also required here.

Leonard Hofstadter · 10-09-2016 7:22pm

marno21 wrote: »

It's fairly sad and typically Irish that we're talking about this scheme being outdated before it's even put to tender.

They should have done the most future proofed thing here and built a short stretch of M20 from the proposed interchanged at Attyflin to the far side of Croom, taking in the dualling of the quite dangerous free-for-all Croom bypass. This would've meant proper connectivity around this area, meant the M20 was started and also saves the future year of road works when the brand new M21 will have to be torn up to put in the M20 interchange (which I am confident isn't too far away - we won't have the current clowns in power for ever).

Regarding the cross section of the new Adare-Rathkeale mainline, I would be fairly sure it will be Type 1 DC or Motorway, regardless of the TII presentation. The traffic levels east of Adare already exceed the capacity of a Type 2 DC (remember this standard is there as an equivilant to WS2 - would we build such a high traffic road as WS2?) - and this doesn't take into account the amount of people that use various rat runs to avoid Adare, once it's bypassed these will all try and use the new road - thereby increasing traffic levels on an already overcapacity road.

If we are building a motorway from Gort to Tuam then we surely have the cop on to realise that a motorway is also required here.

I totally agree, my jaw nearly dropped when I saw that presentation on YouTube, no way type 2 is adequate, it's got to be motorway realistically, Adare is so busy and the traffic volumes are so high. At least we know for certain the Ringaskiddy road will indeed be a motorway, though.

marno21 · 10-09-2016 7:43pm

captainspeed wrote: »

I totally agree, my jaw nearly dropped when I saw that presentation on YouTube, no way type 2 is adequate, it's got to be motorway realistically, Adare is so busy and the traffic volumes are so high. At least we know for certain the Ringaskiddy road will indeed be a motorway, though.

What I don't get is, the M28 was originally to be a standard dual carraigeway with a 100km/h limit, then the engineers decided that seeing as it's a TEN-T Core route, it will be a 100km/h motorway.

Why is this allowed to be a Type 2 DC if so considering there's also a high volume of traffic on this route?

It'll be interesting to see how the route to Foynes from Rathkeale will go too.

spacetweek · 11-09-2016 5:56pm

Maybe you guys are right and the N21 will indeed be HQDC.

marno21 · 11-09-2016 9:10pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Maybe you guys are right and the N21 will indeed be HQDC.

It would be ludicrous for it to be anything less.

But then again how ludicrous is it to have had 16-20k vehicles a day passing through a narrow heritage village 2km from the end of a motorway and nothing done about it so far.

clappyhappy · 14-09-2016 9:02am

A lot of very unhappy people with the changes to the road between Croagh and Rathkeale. Large chunk of dairy farm and 2 homes gone, access onto existing road would also be gone. Interesting times ahead.....

Cookiemunster · 14-09-2016 9:55am

clappyhappy wrote: »

A lot of very unhappy people with the changes to the road between Croagh and Rathkeale. Large chunk of dairy farm and 2 homes gone, access onto existing road would also be gone. Interesting times ahead.....

That's going to happen to some people no matter what route is finally chosen. It also happens with every major road scheme. As the saying goes, you can't make an omelette with out breaking eggs.

clappyhappy · 14-09-2016 10:35am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That's going to happen to some people no matter what route is finally chosen. It also happens with every major road scheme. As the saying goes, you can't make an omelette with out breaking eggs.

I agree completely, but when there is another route that won't take any homes, keep access to existing road but will take a chunk of land that is only for dry stock not dairy and it would keep the new road straight.

rliston · 14-09-2016 11:01am

clappyhappy wrote: »

I agree completely, but when there is another route that won't take any homes, keep access to existing road but will take a chunk of land that is only for dry stock not dairy and it would keep the new road straight.

What makes dairy more important than dry stock?

Vanquished · 14-09-2016 11:08am

clappyhappy wrote: »

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That's going to happen to some people no matter what route is finally chosen. It also happens with every major road scheme. As the saying goes, you can't make an omelette with out breaking eggs.

I agree completely, but when there is another route that won't take any homes, keep access to existing road but will take a chunk of land that is only for dry stock not dairy and it would keep the new road straight.

A certain alternative route might look preferable from aerial imagery but it never tells the full story. More detailed investigation may reveal ground conditions to be unfavourable or the route may impact on a site of archaeological or historical significance.

Overly linear alignments are avoided these days also. Generous graduated curves are engineered in to route designs to reduce monotony for motorists. Especially on roads with good forward visibility.

nowecant · 14-09-2016 10:25pm

rliston wrote: »

What makes dairy more important than dry stock?

Dairy cows have to be brought to and from the yard 2 or even 3 times a day. Typically they would be kept within sight of the yard and parlour to shorten transport time. To even expand a dairy farm the farmer almost always has to buy land which adjoins his or at least is close by along the road. With the low rate of land sales in this country that makes it very difficult. So even if they get a large amount of compensation its unlikely that there is any local land they can buy to continue the farm competitively.

Dry stock on the other hand can and are often kept 20+ miles from the home farm. Dry stock animals usually dont get checked every day. Many dry stock farmers will put them into a secure field at the start of a year and only take them out when they are being sold. Its one of the reasons many dry stock fields have small yards in the corner, for TB testing etc. as they don't have to be brought back to the main farm. Dry stock farmers also have a much larger selection of land to expand into or to replace the land they loose to a motorway. essentially any land within ant radius that the farmer is willing to travel.

Often farmers are offered alternative access to their fields via over bridges or under bridges depending on topography. However there are significant issues with this. Many machines cannot fit through or over these, thus limiting what can be done with the fields. I have personally seen under bridges which have flooded up to the roof for weeks at a time. In another case I know of the NRA wanted 3 local farmers to share one under bridge. However this would be unacceptable to many as its impossible to stop the spread of disease. I know many farmers who don't like when a local contractor comes onto their farm with dirty machines, its just not worth the risk anymore.

In short, a road going through a Dairy farm is often fatal to the business. It is not to a dry stock farmer. I understand the road is necessary, and I support it. But I would not wish it on any farmer, dairy especially, who will be affected by it.

marno21 · 02-10-2016 9:08pm

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/217929/bypass-fears-in-croagh-overnew-limerick-to-foynes-road.html

Croagh residents not happy with the lack of a junction.

clappyhappy · 02-10-2016 9:52pm

marno21 wrote: »

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/217929/bypass-fears-in-croagh-overnew-limerick-to-foynes-road.html

Croagh residents not happy with the lack of a junction.

Can't blame them either, giltenanes restaurant will really suffer.

Cookiemunster · 03-10-2016 11:06am

clappyhappy wrote: »

Can't blame them either, giltenanes restaurant will really suffer.

Even if there is a junction they're not going to get passing trade as people won't leave the new road to go to Croagh unless its their destination.

Mc Love · 03-10-2016 3:59pm

I've never stopped there, and I've never heard of anyone stopping there, so the passing trade must be from the locality itself.

ongarboy · 03-10-2016 8:28pm

Agreed. I've travelled that road 100s of times over the last 20 years and never stopped in Croagh. Most motorists continuing their journey west of Limerick city (if they need to stop at all) just need fuel and refreshments which there are plenty of roadside garages to choose from to facilitate that service. If they really want a proper sit down meal and can't wait for their end destination, then they'd surely pick Adare or possibly wait until NCW or Abbeyfeale for better options.

I think local businesses over estimate the level of business they lose when their town or village is bypassed. Most motorists don't want to spend further time stopping in a congested village they already spent 20 minutes crawling through in first gear at 2 kph.

nowecant · 04-10-2016 5:26pm

It would also increase the land take significantly, adversely affecting local land owners and farmers who have previously complained.

A silly suggestion

marno21 · 21-10-2016 2:30am

Tender award for Ground Investigation along the 16km Foynes-Rathkeale road and the 3km link road to Askeaton

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=100800&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=2&PP=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders

Mango Joe · 24-10-2016 8:28am

Whats the story with the little spur off towards Askeaton?

- Is that the full extent of it? Living on the N69 and wondering what changes if any to expect.

I know there was originally alternate proposed routes etc. and this was chosen instead.

- As of now I presume the best I can hope for is a lot of the general commuter and HGV traffic to come off the N69 - Is that about it in total would you folks think?

Thanks.

dashoonage · 24-10-2016 8:37am

Mango Joe wrote: »

Whats the story with the little spur off towards Askeaton?

- Is that the full extent of it? Living on the N69 and wondering what changes if any to expect.

I know there was originally alternate proposed routes etc. and this was chosen instead.

- As of now I presume the best I can hope for is a lot of the general commuter and HGV traffic to come off the N69 - Is that about it in total would you folks think?

Thanks.

I'd expect a reduction in the speed limits in some areas along the N69.

There seems to be a massive increase in HGV traffic on it recently.

Ardrageen · 24-10-2016 10:37am

dashoonage wrote: »

I'd expect a reduction in the speed limits in some areas along the N69.

I hadn't thought about speed reductions. I don't like the sound of that.

Mc Love · 24-10-2016 11:20am

dashoonage wrote: »

I'd expect a reduction in the speed limits in some areas along the N69.

There seems to be a massive increase in HGV traffic on it recently.

Thats what happened to the old N7 out towards Nenagh, good part of it at 80 even though there's no need, and littered with speed vans!

spacetweek · 24-10-2016 12:56pm

Might have, yea - but they would renumber it N52 all the way to Limerick. Limerick to Dundalk traffic should use the M7.

marno21 · 24-10-2016 1:42pm

I reckon the existing N69 between Askeaton and the N18 will remain N69, but the section between Askeaton and Foynes will be detrunked, and the new spur will be the route for N69 traffic.

The new road will likely be a national primary road, the access routes to Dublin Port (M50), Rosslare (N25), Waterford (N29), Dun Laoighre (N31) and Ringaskiddy (N28) are all national primaries, seeing as this is a TEN-T Core Port it'll likely be a national primary too.

spacetweek · 25-10-2016 1:30pm

What about the rest of the way to Listowel?

dashoonage · 25-10-2016 1:35pm

I cant ****ing wait for this to be honest lads. The commute on the N69 in the morning is driving me bloody insane lately.

some mornings i do pass a camera van in a 100km zone and think to myself.....he's an optimistic bastard hoping to see anyone reaching 100km .

Mango Joe · 25-10-2016 1:57pm

dashoonage wrote: »

I cant ****ing wait for this to be honest lads. The commute on the N69 in the morning is driving me bloody insane lately.

some mornings i do pass a camera van in a 100km zone and think to myself.....he's an optimistic bastard hoping to see anyone reaching 100km .

Its the idiot who manages the traffic lights at Clarina cross that I'd like to interview.

- He was a firm believer that nobody on either of the two minor approach roads (Ballybrown/Patrickswell) should ever have to wait more than 15 seconds for a green light while at the same time there's a 2 km, 20 minute tailback in each direction on the N69 itself.

Ardrageen · 25-10-2016 2:00pm

Those lights at Clarina are maddening alright at times.

testicles · 25-10-2016 2:00pm

This post has been deleted.

marno21 · 25-10-2016 3:21pm

spacetweek wrote: »

What about the rest of the way to Listowel?

In my description above the N69 from Askeaton to the N18 will remain N69 and the N69 from Foynes to Tralee will remain N69. The existing N69 from Foynes to Askeaton will be detrunked and traffic will be sent along the new N69 to its junction with the N3x west of Askeaton, where it will multiplex with the new N3x until Foynes and become N69 again

The fastest way from Limerick to Listowel after this will be the N21 to Rathkeale and then either the R523 to Listowel or continue on the N21 to Abbeyfeale and use the R555

dashoonage · 25-10-2016 3:24pm

I reckon they will put a weight limit on the old road in places as well...possibly the ferry bridge...to force HGV traffic to use the new road.

spacetweek · 25-10-2016 9:28pm

marno21 wrote: »

In my description above the N69 from Askeaton to the N18 will remain N69 and the N69 from Foynes to Tralee will remain N69. The existing N69 from Foynes to Askeaton will be detrunked and traffic will be sent along the new N69 to its junction with the N3x west of Askeaton, where it will multiplex with the new N3x until Foynes and become N69 again

The fastest way from Limerick to Listowel after this will be the N21 to Rathkeale and then either the R523 to Listowel or continue on the N21 to Abbeyfeale and use the R555

Thanks Marno, that's what I meant

M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [advance works to commence shortly]

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