Phone App devemopment

The Corinthian · 19-03-2014 1:48pm

Colonel Panic wrote: »

Ah, the righteous indignation that follows someone's defense of Apple products. It's just at bad as Apple evangelism!

Actually, it should be unnecessary - so ultimately not "just as bad" for this reason.

Colonel Panic · 19-03-2014 1:53pm

A few people said "It's worth it for $reasons" in response to something you said. It's a discussion forum!

The Corinthian · 19-03-2014 2:04pm

Colonel Panic wrote: »

A few people said "It's worth it for $reasons" in response to something you said.

Yes, it's actually called going off topic; unless the topic is how wonderful Macs are.

It's a discussion forum!

Sure and Jebus loves you.

Colonel Panic · 19-03-2014 2:07pm

Hilarious... No bias from your point of view at all!

The Corinthian · 19-03-2014 2:19pm

Colonel Panic wrote: »

Hilarious... No bias from your point of view at all!

My bias is based upon what I stated as my reasons for not investing in a Mac. None of these suggested that a Mac was inferior or anything of the sort - instead they dealt with basic business practicalities of investing time, effort and money in something that just won't return on that investment, no matter how wonderful they are.

As a result, the responses were simply knee-jerk defences of Apple; they did not respond to me, my reasons or my logic. They had nothing to do with what I wrote. They were simply off-topic.

So if I have a bias, it's that I've long found this whole PC vs Mac nonsense to be utterly tedious. But by all means, drag the discussion out further on this subject, because that's what we all want to hear about.

moycullen14 · 19-03-2014 2:32pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

And I have an Acer laptop from 2009 which still runs fine. So what?

As I said, I'm not interested in converting to iOS, nor am I interested in buying a laptop simply to code for one particular platform, especially as much of what I have to code runs specifically on Windows, so I couldn't fully migrate if I wanted to. Simply doesn't make sense for me to do so on balance, no matter how much people eulogise how they want to have their Mac's children.

So while I appreciate, and expected, the usual Apple evangelizing, none of it really addresses my objections and thus is of no value to me whatsoever.

Seriously, even suggesting you're happy without a Mac is like telling a born-again Christian that God doesn't exist...

Whoa, boy. Cool the jets. I'm far from evangelising Apple. Just saying that, for me, the Apple Mac worked out economical because a) it lasted longer than any Windows (Sony, Dell) laptops and b) it was one machine that provided all the development platforms I needed. It's not just a matter of comparing price. If it makes you feel better, there are a lot of things about Apple that irritate me.

What I would say is that if you are doing iphone development, you'd better get a mac. If that causes you a problem, then don't do iOS development.

professore · 19-03-2014 2:39pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

My bias is based upon what I stated as my reasons for not investing in a Mac. None of these suggested that a Mac was inferior or anything of the sort - instead they dealt with basic business practicalities of investing time, effort and money in something that just won't return on that investment, no matter how wonderful they are.

As a result, the responses were simply knee-jerk defences of Apple; they did not respond to me, my reasons or my logic. They had nothing to do with what I wrote. They were simply off-topic.

So if I have a bias, it's that I've long found this whole PC vs Mac nonsense to be utterly tedious. But by all means, drag the discussion out further on this subject, because that's what we all want to hear about.

What he said. In fact the Mac OS looks very slick compared to Windows - and I'm not mad about Windows PCs at least, far from it. If my customers would all use linux I'd use that in a heartbeat.

moycullen14 · 19-03-2014 2:40pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Simple fact is that I wouldn't buy a certain expensive product to code on one platform, if there was a 1500E android laptop to buy I wouldn't buy that either. These laptops have the same hardware in them, my dell vostro laptop is from 2006, what do I win? Unless their shiny cases are doing something I don't know about it's stupid to spend a grand more on one - especially if the OS apparently doesn't matter, let alone buying into a platform so closed.

Follow the discussion. All that's being said is a) iPhone ecosystem costs b) it is necessary if you want to program for it c) It may not be as expensive as you think. Just factor in the costs and see if the return is worth it? Just don't try and do it in a half-a**ed way. If you dislike Apple's way of doing business then just avoid it. Plenty of other things you could be doing.

The Corinthian · 19-03-2014 2:48pm

moycullen14 wrote: »

What I would say is that if you are doing iphone development, you'd better get a mac. If that causes you a problem, then don't do iOS development.

Which is what I wrote. And not what you actually wrote. What you replied with was a non-sequitor. It was irrelevant to what I wrote.

Sparks · 19-03-2014 3:12pm

moycullen14 wrote: »

I have never had a Windows laptop last a fraction of the time.

I think you may have been buying pretty appallingly bad laptops. I have one sitting at home (a Toshiba satellite 220) that still works and it was built in 1997. Granted, it won't run Vista... :pac:

Stick with models that have a good reputation for solidity (like the earlier thinkpad series laptops up to about the W500 stage) and while they won't be as thin as an airbook or whatever the latest Mac is called, they'll probably still be working in ten years time...

Sparks · 19-03-2014 3:13pm

Mac-v-Windows is all very nice, but face it lads, Linux won this row back when noone was noticing

Creamy Goodness · 19-03-2014 3:22pm

professore wrote: »

I know a very experienced and talented developer who developed an identical app for android and iPhone. He had the android one finished in 2 weeks (it was a fairly basic app) and the iPhone version took him 3 months. Granted he went the free route to develop it as he didn't have a Mac but this is a massive barrier for entry and will kill iOS apps if something is not done soon. Apple don't have graphic designers and media people to fall back on to develop their mobile apps !

Even Microsoft are preparing a version of office to run on iOS and Android FFS !!!!

Sorry I just don't get this. As someone who is an Objective-C developer there's no way in hell the iOS version took three months where as the android version took two weeks. There's something missing here. They are most likely skilled in Java and have zero Objective-C experience. This argument doesn't really fly, if he was an experienced Objective-C developer the times more likely would have been reversed (2 weeks iOS, 3 months Android).

How do you mean he went the free route? free in what sense?

Owning a mac to develop iOS apps is not a massive barrier, look at revenue sales coming from the iOS app store, nothing has to be done _soon_ at all.

I also don't know where you got the whole "Apple don't have graphic designers and media people' It's so blind sighted.

On topic. Android is the better platform to get started as you'll most likely have the required tools already, it has cheaper phones etc.

The_B_Man · 19-03-2014 3:43pm

Just to weigh in.
As someone who's main language is Java, I found it relatively easy to write all my Android apps.
I recently installed Mac on VMWare to try out iOS development.

It brought me back to my C/C++ days in college with .h files etc, and I reckon if C/C++ was my main language instead of Java, then I'd pick it up a lot quicker than I am, but probably still not as quick as I did with Android. I like how the GUI editor (I havnet used Android studio yet) allows you to basically create an app with multiple screens (static lists/data/images) without writing any lines of code, but I think once you start to actually code, you see that Obj-C is an entirely different animal altogether from C/C++. Android tries to rely on as many existing Java classes as possible, whereas Obj-C doesnt seem to as much, I think. So there's more of an initial learning curve.

Parts of iOS dev seem a bit weird, but maybe its because I'm dragging form objects onto the GUI editor, and CTRL-dragging into the source to create a connection. Maybe if I just did it in pure source like Android, it might make more sense.

iOS dev seems OK though, and I will most likely continue doing it off my VM (especially since I want to move my career from JEE to mobile), but as I have a really good laptop that will last me a number of years, I wont be investing in a macbook any time soon (I'll consider it when I am next buying a laptop). Maybe a second hand iPhone if I get serious about it, but thats it.

I will say though, I have no defense of the fact that I spent around 1200 on my windows laptop, and another few hundred on my HTC One. At least the specs on my 18month old laptop are better than even the top of the range macbooks out now!

Sparks · 19-03-2014 3:45pm

The_B_Man wrote: »

Obj-C is an entirely different animal altogether from C/C++

Um, this may sound like a dumb question, but isn't that a given?
(And C and C++ are entirely different animals too btw...)

The_B_Man · 19-03-2014 3:48pm

As a Java dev, writing Android is a small step. A few extra libraries or frameworks or whatever.
As a C/C++ dev, Objective-C is a larger step. I thought it would be similar to C or C++ but other than sharing usage of .h files, its completely different. So much so that being a C/C++ dev holds very little advantage, when compared to the advantage of being a Java dev and moving to Android.

Colonel Panic · 19-03-2014 4:27pm

I dunno, Objective C isn't that much of a conceptual leap coming from C or C++ apart from the fact that's it isn't statically typed and is really verbose, although less so in recent iterations.

I keep most of my core code in C/C++ and use OpenGL as a graphics API (even though for a programmer, Direct X is better imo) and find Mac laptops in particular worth the money I spend on them.

I've always found dealing with Google tools, albeit not Android as such to be a massive pain in the arse. I think it's down to them hiring so many people with PHDs but no common sense when it comes to the not so glamorous stuff like tool chains and the like.

I find it silly that iOS development is Mac only too, and while I don't think there are insurmountable technical reasons for it, there are technical reasons nonetheless, partially in some of the tech XCode leverages, partially in how the simulator currently works.

I would bet that in a lab in Apple somewhere, XCode and all the trimmings is running in some form on a Windows machine.

Sparks · 19-03-2014 4:33pm

Colonel Panic wrote: »

I dunno, Objective C isn't that much of a conceptual leap coming from C or C++ apart from the fact that's it isn't statically typed and is really verbose, although less so in recent iterations.

You may have missed some of the concepts - ObjC has a completely different OO model than C++ has (late binding v early binding is about the core of it, but there's also more of a message-passing approach to it). It's a really nice language, iOS stuff aside, I used to play with it a bit years and years ago (before this century

) and was always kindof sad C++ won that particular battle.

Colonel Panic · 19-03-2014 4:44pm

It's not so much that I missed them, more that I've only got the between compile times to post and thought I'd mention the biggest difference I could think of!

The Corinthian · 19-03-2014 4:52pm

Colonel Panic wrote: »

I find it silly that iOS development is Mac only too, and while I don't think there are insurmountable technical reasons for it, there are technical reasons nonetheless, partially in some of the tech XCode leverages, partially in how the simulator currently works.

I would bet that in a lab in Apple somewhere, XCode and all the trimmings is running in some form on a Windows machine.

My guess is that it was a concious attempt to turn iOS into the platform of choice for app developers, in much the same way that the Mac was the platform of choice for DTP in the 1990's. They've used simelar strategies to convert and/or lock in people into iTunes too.

In that respect, while the danger existed that it would have stunted app development, I believe it was a gamble that paid off - if your focus is 90%+ app development, you're going to use iOS, as it'll cover you on both iPhone and Android development.

Colonel Panic · 19-03-2014 5:03pm

Oh totally. Jobs was and Apple will continue to be all about "Product" and force lock in until they can't get away with it anymore (See also the fact that they ported iTunes to Windows eventually, or released an App Store and SDK AT ALL).

I don't agree with it, but I think ultimately it's just business. I'm still amazed at how they can whip up an annual frenzy over phone upgrades, and this is coming from someone who uses an iPhone.

jgh_ · 19-03-2014 6:33pm

Colonel Panic wrote: »

I would bet that in a lab in Apple somewhere, XCode and all the trimmings is running in some form on a Windows machine.

If they'd just let OS X run on a virtual machine it would solve a lot of problems. They don't have to make the tools run on Windows or Linux. They just have to open up OS X compatibility with virtual machines. You can already run OSX on a virtual machine on a machine running OSX...

Graham · 20-03-2014 12:29pm

OP, despite the sometime less than subtle bias emanating from both the iOS and Android camps. Both platforms have their strengths and weaknesses.

Decide what is important to either you personally, or to the apps that you are hoping to develop, then investigate yourself which platform best meets those requirements.

fryup · 23-03-2014 12:03pm

those free apps, surely the developers get paid some way?? do the phone manufacturers contribute?

The Corinthian · 23-03-2014 12:36pm

fryup wrote: »

those free apps, surely the developers get paid some way?? do the phone manufacturers contribute?

What is the business model behind an app, you mean? There's lots of them. Try Googling the subject.

Frank Lee Midere · 23-03-2014 12:45pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

My guess is that it was a concious attempt to turn iOS into the platform of choice for app developers, in much the same way that the Mac was the platform of choice for DTP in the 1990's. They've used simelar strategies to convert and/or lock in people into iTunes too.

In that respect, while the danger existed that it would have stunted app development, I believe it was a gamble that paid off - if your focus is 90%+ app development, you're going to use iOS, as it'll cover you on both iPhone and Android development.

Presumably you mean OS X. Apple uses OS X for app development because iOS dev is really just a subset of OS X ( well not quite - they mostly overlap though). And Xcode itself is written in objective c.

Porting that's a fair amount if work unless you port the entire objective c framework. They did used to but I doubt they care now. Besides that the simulator wouldn't work so well.

Barriers to entry are often a good thing. If android dev is free, can be produced on a cheap PC and there are no real review processes it's no wonder there are so many my first apps on Google Play.

Frank Lee Midere · 23-03-2014 12:54pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

And I have an Acer laptop from 2009 which still runs fine. So what?

As I said, I'm not interested in converting to iOS, nor am I interested in buying a laptop simply to code for one particular platform, especially as much of what I have to code runs specifically on Windows, so I couldn't fully migrate if I wanted to. Simply doesn't make sense for me to do so on balance, no matter how much people eulogise how they want to have their Mac's children.

So while I appreciate, and expected, the usual Apple evangelizing, none of it really addresses my objections and thus is of no value to me whatsoever.

Seriously, even suggesting you're happy without a Mac is like telling a born-again Christian that God doesn't exist...

The real fanatic here is you. One guy suggested he liked his Mac Book. For him. And you rant about evangelising.

The Mac Book does make sense for cross platform mobile development. As he said.

AirBiscuit · 23-03-2014 1:03pm

Don't forget Windows Phone. Having just finished an android app I can tell you I'd find it 3-4 easier doing the same thing in C#. It took a group of 4 of us 6 months to finish something I could do alone in less than a week.
In my experience, android's documentation is a nightmare compared to MSDN's, because of the fact that half of what you need to know is in Java's documentation and the other in Android's, whereas MSDN has absolutely everything you can do in .net documented in one place.
Also, you can get Visual studio express absolutely free, a publishing license costs $20 for windows phone or for Windows 8 (Android is $25) but it's free for students.

But this is an extremely biased viewpoint, take from it what you will.

ChRoMe · 23-03-2014 2:38pm

Botulism wrote: »

Don't forget Windows Phone. Having just finished an android app I can tell you I'd find it 3-4 easier doing the same thing in C#. It took a group of 4 of us 6 months to finish something I could do alone in less than a week.
In my experience, android's documentation is a nightmare compared to MSDN's, because of the fact that half of what you need to know is in Java's documentation and the other in Android's, whereas MSDN has absolutely everything you can do in .net documented in one place.
Also, you can get Visual studio express absolutely free, a publishing license costs $20 for windows phone or for Windows 8 (Android is $25) but it's free for students.

But this is an extremely biased viewpoint, take from it what you will.

What did you need to look up in the Java documentation?

The Corinthian · 23-03-2014 3:09pm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Porting that's a fair amount if work unless you port the entire objective c framework. They did used to but I doubt they care now. Besides that the simulator wouldn't work so well.

To back up your theory, how many other platforms feel it is too much trouble to allow compiling of apps on multiple platforms?

Barriers to entry are often a good thing.

Please explain how barriers to entry can be a good thing? By that, I'm not denying that they certainly can be, but lets see why this is the case and whether it actually applies to this case, rather than spouting something that sounds clever.

If android dev is free, can be produced on a cheap PC and there are no real review processes it's no wonder there are so many my first apps on Google Play.

And your point being?

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The real fanatic here is you. One guy suggested he liked his Mac Book. For him. And you rant about evangelising.

One guy felt the need to say how he liked his Mac Book, simply because I posted that it does not make business sense for me to get one simply to develop for iOS. There was no reason for them to post this; it was a non-sequitor and irrelevant to anything I said.

Basically it was someone running to the defence of iOS because someone, somewhere said something that may be indirectly critical of it. It gets seriously tedious when you cannot post anything even vaguely so about iOS without someone having to feel they need to do that.

The Mac Book does make sense for cross platform mobile development. As he said.

And I also said that. But what if you don't simply do mobile development? Maybe you should actually read what's been posted instead of blindly running to the defence of iOS.

boreder · 23-03-2014 3:25pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

One guy felt the need to say how he liked his Mac Book, simply because I posted that it does not make business sense for me to get one simply to develop for iOS.

Out of interest, what kind of app-development business are you in that it makes sense to ignore 45-50% (probably more) of people who use apps?

Phone App devemopment

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