Phone App devemopment

jgh_ · 19-03-2014 6:33pm

Colonel Panic wrote: »

I would bet that in a lab in Apple somewhere, XCode and all the trimmings is running in some form on a Windows machine.

If they'd just let OS X run on a virtual machine it would solve a lot of problems. They don't have to make the tools run on Windows or Linux. They just have to open up OS X compatibility with virtual machines. You can already run OSX on a virtual machine on a machine running OSX...

Graham · 20-03-2014 12:29pm

OP, despite the sometime less than subtle bias emanating from both the iOS and Android camps. Both platforms have their strengths and weaknesses.

Decide what is important to either you personally, or to the apps that you are hoping to develop, then investigate yourself which platform best meets those requirements.

fryup · 23-03-2014 12:03pm

those free apps, surely the developers get paid some way?? do the phone manufacturers contribute?

The Corinthian · 23-03-2014 12:36pm

fryup wrote: »

those free apps, surely the developers get paid some way?? do the phone manufacturers contribute?

What is the business model behind an app, you mean? There's lots of them. Try Googling the subject.

Frank Lee Midere · 23-03-2014 12:45pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

My guess is that it was a concious attempt to turn iOS into the platform of choice for app developers, in much the same way that the Mac was the platform of choice for DTP in the 1990's. They've used simelar strategies to convert and/or lock in people into iTunes too.

In that respect, while the danger existed that it would have stunted app development, I believe it was a gamble that paid off - if your focus is 90%+ app development, you're going to use iOS, as it'll cover you on both iPhone and Android development.

Presumably you mean OS X. Apple uses OS X for app development because iOS dev is really just a subset of OS X ( well not quite - they mostly overlap though). And Xcode itself is written in objective c.

Porting that's a fair amount if work unless you port the entire objective c framework. They did used to but I doubt they care now. Besides that the simulator wouldn't work so well.

Barriers to entry are often a good thing. If android dev is free, can be produced on a cheap PC and there are no real review processes it's no wonder there are so many my first apps on Google Play.

Frank Lee Midere · 23-03-2014 12:54pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

And I have an Acer laptop from 2009 which still runs fine. So what?

As I said, I'm not interested in converting to iOS, nor am I interested in buying a laptop simply to code for one particular platform, especially as much of what I have to code runs specifically on Windows, so I couldn't fully migrate if I wanted to. Simply doesn't make sense for me to do so on balance, no matter how much people eulogise how they want to have their Mac's children.

So while I appreciate, and expected, the usual Apple evangelizing, none of it really addresses my objections and thus is of no value to me whatsoever.

Seriously, even suggesting you're happy without a Mac is like telling a born-again Christian that God doesn't exist...

The real fanatic here is you. One guy suggested he liked his Mac Book. For him. And you rant about evangelising.

The Mac Book does make sense for cross platform mobile development. As he said.

AirBiscuit · 23-03-2014 1:03pm

Don't forget Windows Phone. Having just finished an android app I can tell you I'd find it 3-4 easier doing the same thing in C#. It took a group of 4 of us 6 months to finish something I could do alone in less than a week.
In my experience, android's documentation is a nightmare compared to MSDN's, because of the fact that half of what you need to know is in Java's documentation and the other in Android's, whereas MSDN has absolutely everything you can do in .net documented in one place.
Also, you can get Visual studio express absolutely free, a publishing license costs $20 for windows phone or for Windows 8 (Android is $25) but it's free for students.

But this is an extremely biased viewpoint, take from it what you will.

ChRoMe · 23-03-2014 2:38pm

Botulism wrote: »

Don't forget Windows Phone. Having just finished an android app I can tell you I'd find it 3-4 easier doing the same thing in C#. It took a group of 4 of us 6 months to finish something I could do alone in less than a week.
In my experience, android's documentation is a nightmare compared to MSDN's, because of the fact that half of what you need to know is in Java's documentation and the other in Android's, whereas MSDN has absolutely everything you can do in .net documented in one place.
Also, you can get Visual studio express absolutely free, a publishing license costs $20 for windows phone or for Windows 8 (Android is $25) but it's free for students.

But this is an extremely biased viewpoint, take from it what you will.

What did you need to look up in the Java documentation?

The Corinthian · 23-03-2014 3:09pm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Porting that's a fair amount if work unless you port the entire objective c framework. They did used to but I doubt they care now. Besides that the simulator wouldn't work so well.

To back up your theory, how many other platforms feel it is too much trouble to allow compiling of apps on multiple platforms?

Barriers to entry are often a good thing.

Please explain how barriers to entry can be a good thing? By that, I'm not denying that they certainly can be, but lets see why this is the case and whether it actually applies to this case, rather than spouting something that sounds clever.

If android dev is free, can be produced on a cheap PC and there are no real review processes it's no wonder there are so many my first apps on Google Play.

And your point being?

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The real fanatic here is you. One guy suggested he liked his Mac Book. For him. And you rant about evangelising.

One guy felt the need to say how he liked his Mac Book, simply because I posted that it does not make business sense for me to get one simply to develop for iOS. There was no reason for them to post this; it was a non-sequitor and irrelevant to anything I said.

Basically it was someone running to the defence of iOS because someone, somewhere said something that may be indirectly critical of it. It gets seriously tedious when you cannot post anything even vaguely so about iOS without someone having to feel they need to do that.

The Mac Book does make sense for cross platform mobile development. As he said.

And I also said that. But what if you don't simply do mobile development? Maybe you should actually read what's been posted instead of blindly running to the defence of iOS.

boreder · 23-03-2014 3:25pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

One guy felt the need to say how he liked his Mac Book, simply because I posted that it does not make business sense for me to get one simply to develop for iOS.

Out of interest, what kind of app-development business are you in that it makes sense to ignore 45-50% (probably more) of people who use apps?

The Corinthian · 23-03-2014 3:40pm

boreder wrote: »

Out of interest, what kind of app-development business are you in that it makes sense to ignore 45-50% (probably more) of people who use apps?

Software development maybe? For computers you can't always put in your pocket? Oddly enough there's still a fair bit of business in that area and if someone is doing more business for development specific to Windows development than specific to iOS, or even mobile in general, then you probably can see that their priorities might be a wee bit different to other developers who do mobile or iPad development almost exclusively.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup · 23-03-2014 4:18pm

Botulism wrote: »

In my experience, android's documentation is a nightmare compared to MSDN's, because of the fact that half of what you need to know is in Java's documentation and the other in Android's,

huh? all the java is in the docs as well. e.g. http://developer.android.com/reference/java/lang/String.html

Tar.Aldarion · 23-03-2014 6:45pm

boreder wrote: »

Out of interest, what kind of app-development business are you in that it makes sense to ignore 45-50% (probably more) of people who use apps?

I make apps for a company that have no interest in using apple and never will, but what's that matter? Personally would like to make these apps but I wouldn't bother without being supplied the gear

ChRoMe · 23-03-2014 6:49pm

boreder wrote: »

Out of interest, what kind of app-development business are you in that it makes sense to ignore 45-50% (probably more) of people who use apps?

Your post should really read "50% of the consumer market".

The Corinthian · 23-03-2014 9:08pm

ChRoMe wrote: »

Your post should really read "50% of the consumer market".

It also comes down to what market you aim twoards. Not everyone is interested in the consumer market. Lots of enterprise stuff going on out there, where you get to choose what everyone will be using.

awec · 23-03-2014 9:39pm

Personally, if I had an app idea I'd go to Android first and then Windows Phone because I could release on these two platforms for pretty much nothing. Windows Phone probably has the best developer tools etc but Android has the users.

iOS requires mac hardware - for an "indie" dev you'd have to weigh up whether or not your app will help you recover the very high costs. Even if you just buy a mac mini that's still about 700 euro and then 100 for the dev license. No sense spending it if you won't get it back either through payments for the app or advertisements.

Creamy Goodness · 23-03-2014 9:45pm

awec wrote: »

Personally, if I had an app idea I'd go to Android first and then Windows Phone because I could release on these two platforms for pretty much nothing. Windows Phone probably has the best developer tools etc but Android has the users.

iOS requires mac hardware - for an "indie" dev you'd have to weigh up whether or not your app will help you recover the very high costs. Even if you just buy a mac mini that's still about 700 euro and then 100 for the dev license. No sense spending it if you won't get it back either through payments for the app or advertisements.

lets face it, for 'indie developers' it's going to be very hard to make any costs back at all. Doesn't matter if a mac mini is 700 euros, or if a windows laptop is like 400 euros, it's a huge undertaking to make that amount of money from an app on ANY platform.

Generally speaking from my experience:

iOS users - pay for apps if it's of worth to them.
Android users - will find a free alternative or just crack.
Windows users - is there enough of them to actually make a living off?

The Corinthian · 23-03-2014 10:18pm

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

iOS users - pay for apps if it's of worth to them.
Android users - will find a free alternative or just crack.
Windows users - is there enough of them to actually make a living off?

That's soooo 2009...

awec · 23-03-2014 11:35pm

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

lets face it, for 'indie developers' it's going to be very hard to make any costs back at all. Doesn't matter if a mac mini is 700 euros, or if a windows laptop is like 400 euros, it's a huge undertaking to make that amount of money from an app on ANY platform.

Generally speaking from my experience:

iOS users - pay for apps if it's of worth to them.
Android users - will find a free alternative or just crack.
Windows users - is there enough of them to actually make a living off?

Well, in my case I already have the Windows laptop so there's no outlay there. The biggest expenditure to release on Android and WP would be my own time - and I'm not going to charge myself for that.

If I happened to be a mac user and had a mac of some sort I'd certainly release to iOS - I was just talking generally as I'm sure my situation is the one that the majority of people are in.

Creamy Goodness · 23-03-2014 11:55pm

awec wrote: »

Well, in my case I already have the Windows laptop so there's no outlay there. The biggest expenditure to release on Android and WP would be my own time - and I'm not going to charge myself for that.

If I happened to be a mac user and had a mac of some sort I'd certainly release to iOS - I was just talking generally as I'm sure my situation is the one that the majority of people are in.

yes there may be no outlay in your case but i just think it's unfair to include the expense of a macbook/mac mini into the cost of an iOS app if you're not going to include the cost of a windows pc/laptop for an android app or windows phone app or anything non iOS based. This isn't pointed solely at you btw just in general.

Tar.Aldarion · 24-03-2014 12:18am

Not really failr but it's just a more realistic thing in my experience, take any of my family, or friends, or work colleagues, we all have windows/linux machines by default as entertainment or working devices. It's just something people already have more often when they are not developing apps already.

ressem · 24-03-2014 12:47am

skulltown wrote: »

Hey,

Guys I was thinking of designing and app for my phone nothing special just want to try something with GPS tracking. I have some experience in Java, SQL, HTML, CSS, JavaScript. I just need a starting point. As in development software, Books, Technology's.

Thanks

As a starting point, it might be valuable just to see how much you can accomplish with a HTML5 page.
http://diveintohtml5.info/geolocation.html
and the code that you're familiar with.

The Corinthian · 24-03-2014 8:21am

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

yes there may be no outlay in your case but i just think it's unfair to include the expense of a macbook/mac mini into the cost of an iOS app if you're not going to include the cost of a windows pc/laptop for an android app or windows phone app or anything non iOS based. This isn't pointed solely at you btw just in general.

Why is it unfair not to include the cost of a windows pc/laptop?

From both an economic and accounting point of view, the PC has already been paid for. It's not only used as a machine for developing Android apps, but likely other kinds of software development, for email and administration and even as a personal machine for entertainment purposes.

So when you look at adding a piece of hardware to your stock, what is the marginal utility of that hardware?

Pretty much any use for a computer is already covered, bar iOS development. And what is the value of that development, and does it justify the investment for a device that serves only one use? Of course, if you land a contract for a client to build an iOS app, and the budget makes buying such a machine worthwhile, then happy days, but if we're talking speculative "move into iOS development and see if it pays for itself", then it becomes a far more dubious proposition.

The only valid argument for doing so I can think of is if one decided to migrate to Apple; that is where their work machine becomes one for developing Android apps, but also other kinds of software development, for email and administration and even as a personal machine for entertainment purposes, and is migrated to an Apple machine. If you're an inde developer who specilizes in the consumer app market, then it's a no-brainer to do this.

So this can be viable, and I've already suggested to scenarios where it is, but generally comes with two caveats. The first is that any such migration comes not simply with the financial cost of buying the machine, but the cost in time and materials of the migration; replacing PC software for equivalent iOS software, converting documents, the time spent setting it all up and learning how to optimally use a new system, and so on.

Even if you're willing to do that, the deal-breaker (at least for me) can be where you need a Windows machine for some or most of your work. Sure, you can use Mono for dotNet development, but it's not quite the same thing as MS Visual Studio. Or you could be developing executables, such as fat clients, for Win32 - where are you going to develop and test them?

As you can see, you can quickly end up in a situation where migrating becomes impractical or frankly not worth the effort and unless the cost of buying a one-trick-pony dev machine is covered; the financial outlay becomes an indulgence.

It's important to point out that none of the above implies that iOS is any better or worse than a Windows PC. Or Linux powered computer. Or Solaris. Or FreeBSD. Which is why it pissed me off so much that the moment I dared to suggest this, people had to chime in how wonderful iOS machines are. I don't care how wonderful they are - it's not the reason why getting one doesn't make sense for me and others and this knee-jerk need to run to their defence is just tedious noise.

Linux enthusiasts used to do the same thing. At least they grew out of it.

moycullen14 · 24-03-2014 10:00am

The Corinthian wrote: »

Why is it unfair not to include the cost of a windows pc/laptop?

From both an economic and accounting point of view, the PC has already been paid for. It's not only used as a machine for developing Android apps, but likely other kinds of software development, for email and administration and even as a personal machine for entertainment purposes.

So when you look at adding a piece of hardware to your stock, what is the marginal utility of that hardware?

Pretty much any use for a computer is already covered, bar iOS development. And what is the value of that development, and does it justify the investment for a device that serves only one use? Of course, if you land a contract for a client to build an iOS app, and the budget makes buying such a machine worthwhile, then happy days, but if we're talking speculative "move into iOS development and see if it pays for itself", then it becomes a far more dubious proposition.

The only valid argument for doing so I can think of is if one decided to migrate to Apple; that is where their work machine becomes one for developing Android apps, but also other kinds of software development, for email and administration and even as a personal machine for entertainment purposes, and is migrated to an Apple machine. If you're an inde developer who specilizes in the consumer app market, then it's a no-brainer to do this.

So this can be viable, and I've already suggested to scenarios where it is, but generally comes with two caveats. The first is that any such migration comes not simply with the financial cost of buying the machine, but the cost in time and materials of the migration; replacing PC software for equivalent iOS software, converting documents, the time spent setting it all up and learning how to optimally use a new system, and so on.

Even if you're willing to do that, the deal-breaker (at least for me) can be where you need a Windows machine for some or most of your work. Sure, you can use Mono for dotNet development, but it's not quite the same thing as MS Visual Studio. Or you could be developing executables, such as fat clients, for Win32 - where are you going to develop and test them?

As you can see, you can quickly end up in a situation where migrating becomes impractical or frankly not worth the effort and unless the cost of buying a one-trick-pony dev machine is covered; the financial outlay becomes an indulgence.

It's important to point out that none of the above implies that iOS is any better or worse than a Windows PC. Or Linux powered computer. Or Solaris. Or FreeBSD. Which is why it pissed me off so much that the moment I dared to suggest this, people had to chime in how wonderful iOS machines are. I don't care how wonderful they are - it's not the reason why getting one doesn't make sense for me and others and this knee-jerk need to run to their defence is just tedious noise.

Linux enthusiasts used to do the same thing. At least they grew out of it.

You really don't see that what you are doing is denigrating one platform ('one trick pony', etc) and complaining about other people evangelising it (which, on the whole, they weren't). In certain scenarios, the mac ecosystem is 'worth' it, in others it isn't. Simple as that. Although it is hard to see how anyone serious about mobile development (enterprise or consumer) can 'ignore' iOS. Leave it at that.

The Corinthian · 24-03-2014 10:21am

moycullen14 wrote: »

You really don't see that what you are doing is denigrating one platform ('one trick pony', etc) and complaining about other people evangelising it (which, on the whole, they weren't).

To begin with I am not denigrating one platform, I am assessing the value of one platform in a particular scenario. If you're buying one platform solely for one purpose, then it is a one trick pony - if you were on iOS and had to buy a Windows PC only because you wanted to produce Win32 executables, that too would be a one-trick-pony scenario. So it's really got nothing to do with the platform itself, just the utility of any platform given circumstances and business needs.

And what do you mean people "on the whole" were not evangelising? So you're accepting that they were a little bit? That ultimately those contributions were OT and superfluous?

In certain scenarios, the mac ecosystem is 'worth' it, in others it isn't. Simple as that.

Which I've said several times - of course, when someone block quotes you, it tends to be a give-away that they've not read your post properly, so I'm not hugely surprised you missed it.

Although it is hard to see how anyone serious about mobile development (enterprise or consumer) can 'ignore' iOS. Leave it at that.

Firstly, no one said anything about ignoring it. It can make far more sense to out-or-near-source any iOS version development, especially if it involves multi-platform framework, rather than native, code.

Secondly, you've clearly not done much enterprise mobile work. Any I've done, has specified a platform for rollout. In some cases, even the device model, some of which were custom designed, were pinned down.

And finally, you confuse "serious" with exclusive; which is another point I covered and you've not bothered to read.

Seriously, just stop. It's embarrassing.

Phone App devemopment

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