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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

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    #452
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    The 2 posts idea has been floating around in union circles for a long long time. They might not be 2 offered and they might be temporary! But Posts will be in the mix -mark my words. Now I have heard of schools where they will eat their young for a post-so that might swing some. The delusionally ambitious-work out the odds on getting one!


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    #453
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,141 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    The 2 posts idea has been floating around in union circles for a long long time. They might not be 2 offered and they might be temporary! But Posts will be in the mix -mark my words. Now I have heard of schools where they will eat their young for a post-so that might swing some. The delusionally ambitious-work out the odds on getting one!

    JC Reform has to be kept a completely separate issue from everything else.
    if the union allow anything else in to muddy the waters then its game over. for us and for them !


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    #454
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    km79 wrote: »
    JC Reform has to be kept a completely separate issue from everything else.
    if the union allow anything else in to muddy the waters then its game over. for us and for them !

    Agree 100%. There will be movement on posts in the next two years I think with or without JCSA. So to let two posts sway it for you is too much.

    With 100% external assessment alone you would need two posts to track the schedules and enter students and coordinate. Hoe would you manage with two posts and thousands of reslts to be entered?


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    #455
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    Hmm but you cant really bring in such a radically different course without extra posts? Even separate from the assessment issue-it involves a lot of change=ie short course etc But even if you have different view-Jan will still try to muddy the waters like every Government has last 15 years. Throw them 2%-ask for more work. Recession comes-take back money but leave the work. I know bench marking gave a 10% increase but all that money is gone and you are stuck with work

    So We know their game plan-can see it a mile off. Offer a few posts. Throw in some pennies. Will we fall for it again? My heart says No. My head says...


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    #456
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    offering posts is just going to create more infighting in schools as to who 'deserves' the one measly post.

    Offering money is just insulting. Whatever they could offer would never be enough. Unions would loose face by accepting a payoff for a core founding principle.

    Unions need a win. All they have to do is keep saying no, more strikes will mean a rise in membership.

    After todays dept. leak the writing is on the wall. Its only a matter of giving the govt. a gracious defeat by cooking up some type of review committee/ postponement to kick the can down the road


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    #457
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,141 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Armelodie wrote: »
    offering posts ous jusy going to create more infighting in schools as to who 'deserves' the one measley post.

    Offering money is just insulting. Whatever they could offer would never be enough. Unions would loose face by accepting a payoff for a core founding principle.

    Unions need a win. All they have to do is keep saying no, more strikes will mean a rise in membership.

    After todays dept. leak the writing is on the wall. Its only a matter of giving the govt. a gracious defeat by cooking up some type of review committee/ postponement to kick the can down the road
    completely agree
    I was actually suprised Jan did not immediatley postpone it for 12 months when she took over .
    If the union leadership have anything about them thats what will happen in next month or so
    and after this "leak" I'm very optimistic .....


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    #458
    killbillvol2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭killbillvol2


    Falling for an offer of posts would be idiotic. Between pension levy, USC and all the other taxes a post is worth about a third of the allowance.


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    #459
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,788 ✭✭✭amacca


    killbillvol2 wrote: »
    Falling for an offer of posts would be idiotic. Between pension levy, USC and all the other taxes a post is worth about a third of the allowance.

    they are worth sweet fa (all things considered) if you ask me

    some inconsistency -but many/most now with extremely high workload/time commitment with very little time in lieu considering whats involved and a pittance money wise when tax/deductions etc taken into account

    if you were to think about it and place a value on your time as a professional not to mention your health I believe people would tell them where to shove these posts

    thing is I think a significant portion of senior staff take them on as its sort of the done thing/next in line, no need to rock the boat, doesn't look good if you turn it down etc


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    #460
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Was it not released under FOI - 5 year rule?


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    #461
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    Was it not released under FOI - 5 year rule?


    Yeah it was.

    The blueprint is here although jc reform isn't on it you can see the line of thinking.

    http://oldwww.finance.gov.ie/documents/pressreleases/2009/bl100vol2.pdf education is from about page 55 on. Grim reading.


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    #462
    sitstill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭sitstill


    km79 wrote: »
    completely agree
    I was actually suprised Jan did not immediatley postpone it for 12 months when she took over .
    If the union leadership have anything about them thats what will happen in next month or so
    and after this "leak" I'm very optimistic .....

    What was the leak? I must have missed it.


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    #463
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,141 ✭✭✭✭km79


    sitstill wrote: »
    What was the leak? I must have missed it.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/axing-of-junior-cert-proposed-in-2009-to-save-money-1.2038912
    turns out it may not be a leak after all as poster above stated it had to be released after 5 years due to Freedom of Information
    still its good for the campaign and pyrs the govt under even more pressure


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    #464
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,138 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    The next target will be the LCA, which compared to the JC and LC is hugely expensive per candidate, as it is based on interviews and practical assessments as well as written exams.

    The difference between that and what is proposed for the JC being that the assessments/interviews are done by external people and they are paid, which is what could have been done for the JC, had the actual intent been reform and not money saving.


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    #465
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    endakenny wrote: »
    In your opinion, why was the ASTI leadership unwilling to continue industrial action against the HRA?

    Interesting question. I think they were afraid we might have had actual redundancies and also they don't really believe the membership have the balls for a real dispute. My view was the government would not have had the balls to fire teachers and that we would have achieved even more by holding out. We need a real leader who is elected by every member. The general sec can sit pretty on 130k without election.We need a man or woman with vision who knows that leadership is not playing to the fears of the masses but leading them to a new place.


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    #466
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    So I got paid today. Down €60 from strike.


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    #467
    Moody_mona
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭Moody_mona


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    So I got paid today. Down €60 from strike.

    I'm down €35 net. Which makes me even madder that we had teachers cross the picket for the sake of that little money.


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    #468
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,141 ✭✭✭✭km79


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    So I got paid today. Down €60 from strike.

    similar
    was worth every penny


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    #469
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Moody_mona wrote: »
    I'm down €35 net. Which makes me even madder that we had teachers cross the picket for the sake of that little money.

    Ya mine was net too. Just got my payslip. Down 164 gross but it taxes me out of higher pension bracket I think.

    Didn't my increment this time either.


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    #470
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Ya mine was net too. Just got my payslip. Down 164 gross but it taxes me out of higher pension bracket I think.

    Didn't my increment this time either.

    As a matter of interest how do you mean it taxes you out of higher pension bracket?


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    #471
    sitstill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭sitstill


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    So I got paid today. Down €60 from strike.

    I'm only down €50 net but it was €130 gross.


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    #472
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Armelodie wrote: »
    As a matter of interest how do you mean it taxes you out of higher pension bracket?

    I haven't sat down and compared this payslip with a fortnight ago but I remember the last time that for the different levels of pension levy that I didn't earn enough to push me into the highest one. One quirk the last time of that was that I ended up €30 better off. I'm guessing similar has happened this time.


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    #473
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    Brother in law back from England . primary teacher. Works until mid night six days a week. Must correct every single piece of work in detail. No text books . Three meetings per week. Starts to work 745am.
    This is your future unless u fight now to the end. I feel like john the baptist and we know what happened to him....


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    #474
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,788 ✭✭✭amacca


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    Brother in law back from England . primary teacher. Works until mid night six days a week. Must correct every single piece of work in detail. No text books . Three meetings per week. Starts to work 745am.
    This is your future unless u fight now to the end. I feel like john the baptist and we know what happened to him....

    mid-night six days a week???? starts at 7:45 + distinctly average pay

    I'd take nearly any menial job for the sake of my physical and mental health any day above that.

    I'd associate that kind of crazy schedule with either 1) third/developing world sweatshop 2) A job with very very high pressure, stress and instability but with the promise of very large monetary rewards (if you don't mind shortening your life) such as investment banking etc or 3) actual slave labour

    Theres no point in doing that to someone or yourself if you want them to be an effective teacher…..if the system can't see that as wrong then its a not a system worth being in.


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    #475
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭acequion


    Must look at my pay check again,but I think I'm down €40-50. A nice happy xmas on xmas eve! But worth every penny and if anything it only toughens to resolve to fight it out.

    Happy xmas everyone.We deserve it.:P


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    #476
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    Brother in law back from England . primary teacher. Works until mid night six days a week. Must correct every single piece of work in detail. No text books . Three meetings per week. Starts to work 745am.
    This is your future unless u fight now to the end. I feel like john the baptist and we know what happened to him....

    There are far too many of these stories coming back from Irish people in the English education system. Just what do the so-called leaders of their teachers' unions do besides toe the establishment line in the hope that they'll get some royal title at the end of it all? Why any Irish person would sell themselves short by being an indentured servant in that education system beats the band.

    The entire system has class warfare written all over it. It screams it. Teachers are dirt there, and they only have themselves to blame. Their docile, deferential culture to a top-heavy Tory culture which rewards obscenely people in finance will forever make them expendable and utterly dispensable. All the power English teachers could have if they had the balls to assert themselves and redress the deep imbalance in the value system towards workers there.


    To paraphrase Harney, the worst day in unemployment in Ireland is better than the best day in employment as a teacher in England. There are tons of teaching jobs in England for a reason.


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    #477
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Just checked my salary and I'm on precisely the same gross and net pay as I was in September - i.e. neither the strike day nor the increment have been applied yet. I'm not VEC.

    When does our 25% reduction in the increment end? The 25% which this government took this year was worth €750 to me. Next year, we will all have another 25% reduction (via the increment being given after 15 months rather than 12 months). That's a lot of money, even if it is taken very slyly.


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    #478
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    There are far too many of these stories coming back from Irish people in the English education system. Just what do the so-called leaders of their teachers' unions do besides toe the establishment line in the hope that they'll get some royal title at the end of it all? Why any Irish person would sell themselves short by being an indentured servant in that education system beats the band.

    The entire system has class warfare written all over it. It screams it. Teachers are dirt there, and they only have themselves to blame. Their docile, deferential culture to a top-heavy Tory culture which rewards obscenely people in finance will forever make them expendable and utterly dispensable. All the power English teachers could have if they had the balls to assert themselves and redress the deep imbalance in the value system towards workers there.


    To paraphrase Harney, the worst day in unemployment in Ireland is better than the best day in employment as a teacher in England. There are tons of teaching jobs in England for a reason.

    I suspect that in England teachers didn't bother much with the little changes and just 'wanted to get on with their own teaching'. But by the time they turned around to look at all those 'little changes" it was too late. Death by a thousand cuts.

    Same thing happening here, teachers have little time to sit back and see the wood from the trees. Many of my colleagues saw the umpteen hr/cp votes as an annoyance to their yearly plan of 'getting the course covered', and now theyre wondering where has all the time gone, and why we have to do all these silly meetings.


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    #479
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,788 ✭✭✭amacca


    Armelodie wrote: »
    I suspect that in England teachers didn't bother much with the little changes and just 'wanted to get on with their own teaching'. But by the time they turned around to look at all those 'little changes" it was too late. Death by a thousand cuts.

    Same thing happening here, teachers have little time to sit back and see the wood from the trees. Many of my colleagues saw the umpteen hr/cp votes as an annoyance to their yearly plan of 'getting the course covered', and now theyre wondering where has all the time gone, and why we have to do all these silly meetings.

    I agree but I further suspect that a lot of the nonsense that has happened has also been down to a divide and conquer strategy

    a) part time below 22hr contracts - this leaves new entrants and those struggling to get full hours on very unsure ground and unable to stand up for themselves as the rug could be pulled out from under them - thats a nice number who won't rock the boat - also train many many more teachers than there are positions for so there won't be as much need to take on people on full hours - brings in a nice revenue stream for universities and who cares if the profession is oversubscribed - its just another lever to apply pressure

    b) don't deduct much money on those near retirement in any negotiations etc as they are overrepresented/more active in unions and they will allow "reforms" (it makes me laugh to hear much of what has happened described as reforms) - thats another group who won't rock the boat thus weakening the hand of any group who does

    and possibly

    [c) make union leaders "partners" in the process of educational reform - theres no need to be enemies after all they would be better able to represent their members interests if they actually wanted to resist the establishment for the good of the system - part of me wonders after what has gone on if theres not some sort of payoff in it for union chiefs in terms of future board member positions etc etc]


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    #480
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    There are far too many of these stories coming back from Irish people in the English education system. Just what do the so-called leaders of their teachers' unions do besides toe the establishment line in the hope that they'll get some royal title at the end of it all? Why any Irish person would sell themselves short by being an indentured servant in that education system beats the band.

    The entire system has class warfare written all over it. It screams it. Teachers are dirt there, and they only have themselves to blame. Their docile, deferential culture to a top-heavy Tory culture which rewards obscenely people in finance will forever make them expendable and utterly dispensable. All the power English teachers could have if they had the balls to assert themselves and redress the deep imbalance in the value system towards workers there.


    To paraphrase Harney, the worst day in unemployment in Ireland is better than the best day in employment as a teacher in England. There are tons of teaching jobs in England for a reason.

    But we are heading there bit by bit-I doubt it will reach 66 hour hour weeks but close enough and we have only ourselves to blame. We have allowed a worse sick leave scheme to be implemented than England. They dont have drive by inspections. If the sum total of your action against this creeping menace is an odd post here or just a no vote-it aint enough.


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    #481
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    amacca wrote: »
    I agree but I further suspect that a lot of the nonsense that has happened has also been down to a divide and conquer strategy

    a) part time below 22hr contracts - this leaves new entrants and those struggling to get full hours on very unsure ground and unable to stand up for themselves as the rug could be pulled out from under them - thats a nice number who won't rock the boat - also train many many more teachers than there are positions for so there won't be as much need to take on people on full hours - brings in a nice revenue stream for universities and who cares if the profession is oversubscribed - its just another lever to apply pressure

    b) don't deduct much money on those near retirement in any negotiations etc as they are overrepresented/more active in unions and they will allow "reforms" (it makes me laugh to hear much of what has happened described as reforms) - thats another group who won't rock the boat thus weakening the hand of any group who does

    and possibly

    [c) make union leaders "partners" in the process of educational reform - theres no need to be enemies after all they would be better able to represent their members interests if they actually wanted to resist the establishment for the good of the system - part of me wonders after what has gone on if theres not some sort of payoff in it for union chiefs in terms of future board member positions etc etc]

    The general secretary ASTI needs to be elected. Demand it. Motions will be circulating around branch meetings in January for convention. Our branch proposed it- support it by getting off your backsides and going to meetings. Otherwise what has a Gen Sec on 130 k to lose by agreeing to partnership deals. He doubts the memberships appetite for strike but fails to provide leadership or back the recommendation of his own ASTI CEC(elected by members) to reject HR2-instead does a roadshow funded by members to vote for it!


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