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EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

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    #92
    marathonic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭marathonic


    I wonder is Audi at it to the same extent. I would imagine so. It'll be interesting, for example, to see if they revise the emissions figures before people take deliveries of the new A4


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    #93
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    pred racer wrote: »
    I'm in France at the moment, this story is getting big air on all the news shows :D

    With barely contained glee I would imagine. Till it hits one of their manufacturers.


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    #94
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,913 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    According to Bloomberg, the share price has plummeted by 23% with stock closing at €132.2, its lowest in more than three years.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-21/volkswagen-drops-15-after-admitting-u-s-diesel-emissions-cheat

    -1x-1.png


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    #95
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,913 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0BRGasUUr4


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    #96
    alan partridge aha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,199 ✭✭✭alan partridge aha


    VAG european best selling manufacturer RIP


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    #97
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    With barely contained glee I would imagine. Till it hits one of their manufacturers.

    french sell diesels in the states?


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    #98
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    Pity the EU wouldn't take BMW to task for their inability to make a timing chain properly.... how long has this been going on for yet never been resolved?

    And seriously, is anyone really surprised that VW are allegedly cooking the books? The only thing that's surprising is that nobody else has been caught!

    The EU CO2 emissions rules are the greatest load of crap ever, we're all forced to drive downsized engines with their myriad of reliability problems, and for what? They're no more economical than the simpler (but far more reliable) engines of 15 years ago, they're worse to drive because the gearing on many cars has gone crazy (a B7 1.6 TDI Passat runs at less than 2000 rpm at 120 km/h in top gear despite having a measly 103 bhp, in times gone by a diesel with that little power would be spinning closer to 2500 rpm at that speed in top) and that impacts on performance, also stop start is just another thing to go expensively wrong, and these downsized engines come with fewer cylinders and no matter how much the car manufacturers try to convince us otherwise, a four cylinder engine is no match for a five or six pot engine for quietness, noise and overall refinement.... it's a completely different driving experience driving a V6 or a V8 (and not just the power either - there is so much more to it than that).

    Nowadays a BMW with a 30i badge is the top end of the four cylinder range, once upon a time the 30i badge meant you had climbed high enough up the ladder to get a V8. Of course, that's if you're lucky as these days it's all about the diesels and to hell with the impacts on public health, fair play to the US though for actually taking public health more seriously than the EU does.


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    #99
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    BoatMad wrote: »
    french sell diesels in the states?

    I honestly don't know, but would be surprised if they didn't.
    Also, my guess is still VW aren't the only ones at it and the US won't be the only country affected.
    Does anyone really think this issue is only with them? I can't see VW being the only car manufacturer in the world having to cheat to fulfil nonsensical and impractical regulations and everyone else being able to meet them with absolutely no problems. As we say in Germany "they're only cooking with water". I.e. the other guy does not have some magic trick up his sleeve that enables him to do something no one else can do.


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    #100
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,384 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Audi, BMW, Chevrolet, dodge, jeep, mercedes, porsche, vw

    They're the only non truck diesels you can get AFAIK.


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    #101
    BigEejit
    Registered Users Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭BigEejit


    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1097513_which-states-have-the-most-diesel-vehicles-new-data-gives-results
    There are now a total of 7.4 million diesel cars and SUVs on U.S. roads, out of a total vehicle pool of roughly 250 million.

    3% ish


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    #102
    John T Carroll
    Closed Accounts Posts: 757 ✭✭✭John T Carroll


    Poulgorm wrote: »
    The more you read about this, the worse it gets. This was not incompetence - it was an intentional, premeditated crime by the VAG group.

    This will cost them.

    Next question: Are VAG also cheating with their European cars?

    Next questions: are other car makers guilty? There was an article in the Sunday Times a few months ago - I think it was about the diesel Mazda 6 - which, in real life, was emitting way above the Euro 6 limits.

    Angela will pull out all the stops to protect them

    Now that Euro 6 has almost reduced the Nox limits by 50% are any manufacturers NOW using an additive that they wern't previously?.


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    #103
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,913 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    South Korea to start checking the tests there...

    http://m.independent.ie/business/world/volkswagen-scandal-spreads-to-asia-as-south-korea-to-test-cars-for-emissions-cheating-31547658.html

    Which manufacturing country will be next?


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    #104
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,174 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    As was inevitable, this caper has now been dubbed "Dieselgate":

    http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018


    Now coming to Europe:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/0922/729441-volkswagen-diesel/


    They'll be alright in the UK anyway. From the MOT manual:

    "4.
    Assess whether the smoke emitted from the exhaust, regardless of measure density, is likely to obscure the vision of other road users.    "

    :D


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    #105
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    jimgoose wrote: »
    As was inevitable, this caper has now been dubbed "Dieselgate":

    http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018


    Now coming to Europe:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/0922/729441-volkswagen-diesel/


    They'll be alright in the UK anyway. From the MOT manual:

    "4.
    Assess whether the smoke emitted from the exhaust, regardless of measure density, is likely to obscure the vision of other road users.    "

    :D

    That's Fancy Pigeon fcuked, then.


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    #106
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,174 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    That's Fancy Pigeon fcuked, then.

    Be grand. He can plumb dry-powder fire extinguishers into his exhaust, for de shmoke bah! It's not like it'll be detected. :D


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    #107
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,236 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    shedweller wrote: »
    Might there be a way to force on this "defeat device"? We could all do with smaller fuel bills!

    There's probably a major torque/bhp trade-off from running the engine in super-eco mode to cheat the test


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    #108
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Akrasia wrote: »
    There's probably a major torque/bhp trade-off from running the engine in super-eco mode to cheat the test
    For sure. But while at a steady state cruise there is little or less need for all the power. Maybe some of that already happens?


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    #109
    John T Carroll
    Closed Accounts Posts: 757 ✭✭✭John T Carroll


    Dieselgate??....what about wastegate?.


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    #110
    Conor20
    Registered Users Posts: 265 ✭✭Conor20


    The World Health Organisation showed in 2012 that the particulate in diesel emissions causes cancer, increases the cancer risk for diesel drivers, and significantly increases the cancer risk for their children. I understand that diesel is now thought to be killing more people in developed countries than smoking.
    Diesel fumes cause lung cancer, the World Health Organization declared Tuesday, .. they are more carcinogenic than secondhand cigarette smoke.
    The original paper by the W.H.O. is here, here's a news report summarising it: "W.H.O. Declares Diesel Fumes Cause Lung Cancer"

    I wonder if the government will use this scandal to change the purely emissions based motor tax bands to account for this - CO2 is obviously a major problem globally, but the other nasty stuff - Nitrous Oxide and asbestos like particulate - coming from the exhaust is a serious problem locally to the occupants and people nearby.


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    #111
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    robtri wrote: »
    This interests me, have you a link or anything, I can't find anythign about this, BMW seem to be continuing to use diesel and are trying to stop Paris banning diesel engines in 2020.....

    http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2015/06/by-2020-all-bmws-will-be-awd-range.html

    the i3 and the i8 look to be the future direction for BMW, great performance and lower emissions the only issue might be price, but as battery prices drop by 2022 it might be possible


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    #112
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Conor20 wrote: »
    The World Health Organisation showed in 2012 that the particulate in diesel emissions causes cancer, increases the cancer risk for diesel drivers, and significantly increases the cancer risk for their children. I understand that diesel is now thought to be killing more people in developed countries than smoking.

    The original paper by the W.H.O. is here, here's a news report summarising it: "W.H.O. Declares Diesel Fumes Cause Lung Cancer"

    I wonder if the government will use this scandal to change the purely emissions based motor tax bands to account for this - CO2 is obviously a major problem globally, but the other nasty stuff - Nitrous Oxide and asbestos like particulate - coming from the exhaust is a serious problem locally to the occupants and people nearby.

    Careful now you'll have the greens hounding you for daring to question the CO2 dogma they come out with.

    The answer to CO2 imo lies more on the side of more trees, coupled with sensible measures on vehicles and industrial emissions. As opposed to deforestation of south america etc and offsetting that by pumping nox and particulates into the environment.

    Encouraging everyone to buy diesels for city driving is not sensible. Encouraging people to buy cars with DPF's that get deleted as soon as there is a problem is not sensible. Encouraging everyone to buy cars that are more eco but have a shortened lifetime due to the increased cost/trouble of technology to make them eco is not green at all and only makes sense from a government revenue generation point of view.

    But hey, I'm interested in actual efficiency and the bigger environmental picture and not a champagne greeny.


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    #113
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,835 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Just when Volkswagen was only a few months shy of becoming the biggest car maker in the world. That might not happen now...

    I wish I was the Governor of California now. I'd be playing Santa with the billions in fines VW will have to pay them :cool:
    Joe 90 wrote: »
    My old S1 Elise would do about 50 mpg driven legally on a motorway. Given that it was not particulary aerodynamic, had what would be considered an old tech engine today (Rover K) and only had a 5 speed gearbox it should be possible to do a lot better these days.

    I believe ya! My MGF (similar car, a bit less light than your ultralight Elise and a few more mod cons, also with the K-series) does 40MPG average (driven hard)


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    #114
    Red Kev
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Red Kev


    kbannon wrote: »
    According to Bloomberg, the share price has plummeted by 23% with stock closing at €132.2, its lowest in more than three years.


    Share price has dropped €20 in the past few minutes and it's still going down. Now at €105

    I'll wait till this calms down a bit in a few weeks and I'll buy about €20K worth of shares in them. They'll survive and the share price will recover. Easy money.

    http://www.finanzen.net/realtimekurs/Volkswagen_vz


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    #115
    Red Kev
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Red Kev


    Actually Mercedes and BMW shares are down about 10% just on today alone. This could get interesting of they use similar systems. Good time to start hedging a few bets on shares in car manufacturers over the next few months.


    http://www.finanzen.net/realtimekurs/BMW

    http://www.finanzen.net/realtimekurs/Daimler


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    #116
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    NewsOnTheMin
    BREAKING Volkswagen says 11 mn cars worldwide fitted with pollution cheating software. (AFP)
    9/22/15, 10:51 AM:eek:


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    #117
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    cisk wrote: »
    NewsOnTheMin
    BREAKING Volkswagen says 11 mn cars worldwide fitted with pollution cheating software. (AFP)
    9/22/15, 10:51 AM:eek:

    wow , just wow, corporate fraud on a global scale


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    #118
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    I see the UK testing agency has said theres no cheating in the UK , as tailpipe tests are done, The issue is the US is the test was done via the ODB connector


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    #119
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,174 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    Careful now you'll have the greens hounding you for daring to question the CO2 dogma they come out with....
    Encouraging people to buy new cars in the first place is inefficient and harmful. The greenest car of all is the one already built, preferable one not packed with exotic chemicals to satisfy idiotic regulations.

    While I'm at it, the CO2 emissions-based motor tax system is exactly the same as the old engine displacement one, only with different numbers. The only serious way to tax vehicle pollution is to get rid of that ridiculous motor tax system altogether and add it to the price of a litre of fuel at the forecourt. You pollute, you pay. You do not pollute, you don't pay. A dog with a mallet rammed up his hole can understand this. Apparently our noble leaders cannot. Unless there's something else going on... :D
    BoatMad wrote: »
    I see the UK testing agency has said theres no cheating in the UK , as tailpipe tests are done, The issue is the US is the test was done via the ODB connector
    They're right. There probably isn't any cheating in the UK. That's because the "tailpipe test" they do there for the MOT is exactly the same as the one done by the NCT here, i.e. a particulate concentration test a.k.a. "smoke test".


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    #120
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Encouraging people to buy new cars in the first place is inefficient and harmful. The greenest car of all is the one already built, preferable one not packed with exotic chemicals to satisfy idiotic regulations.

    err.. the supply of second hand cars is somehow endless , and existing cars last forever do they , what are you smoking


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    #121
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    While I'm at it, the CO2 emissions-based motor tax system is exactly the same as the old engine displacement one, only with different numbers. The only serious way to tax vehicle pollution is to get rid of that ridiculous motor tax system altogether and add it to the price of a litre of fuel at the forecourt. You pollute, you pay. You do not pollute, you don't pay. A dog with a mallet rammed up his hole can understand this. Apparently our noble leaders cannot. Unless there's something else going on..

    nonsense, as that provides no incentive to produce cars that emit less pollution , merely cars that have lower consumption , as VW have proved, make you car dirty and it will be efficient and powerful.

    it severely penalises goods vehicles , where there is little option but to use the engines as they find them

    you display a remarkable lack of understanding of diesel technology


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