EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

jimgoose · 20-09-2015 5:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Was this same story not out last year or about but with BMW?

Probably. I dislike Volkswagens, though. The Polo, with it's airheaded "N"-plate merchants putting on makeup with one hand and taking selfies with the other. The Golf, with it's bearded IFSC-wannabe types with the boot full of GAA gear and craft beer. The Jetta, with it's terminally boring ageing civil-servants with the joie de vivre of cold custard. And the Passat, with it's t-shirted, shaven-headed boot-boys with bigger boobs than their skank girlfriends, scowling happily as they clatter along at 93 km/h in a cloud of smoke reminiscent of something from the Battle of Britain.

alias no.9 · 20-09-2015 7:10pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Probably a lot less than the emissions in the refinery process of petrol and diesel, and the transportation involved. Then there's all the chemicals used in the process. Then add to the fact the Internal combustion engine is 20-30% efficient V 80-85% for the EV. We have up to 40% energy from wind now and growing. You also have the choice to charge via your own wind turbine or solar PV. Coal accounts for about 15-20% of our energy mix. Except for the last few days which have been pretty calm. So you need a lot more ev batteries to store all the excess wind energy we get rather than export some of it. Wind at night can be used to charge EV batteries. We have plenty of spare capacity at night while all the power stations have to keep burning fuel to be ready for demand.

I don't think my electricity comes from money point anyway, most likely a Gas fired plant with mix of wind.

The EV also needs no oil throughout it's life, no filters, no spark plugs, no glow plugs, belts etc. The battery can be reused and broken down after. Very little lithium goes into the production of batteries so currently it's not worth extracting it but that's because there is not enough batteries to make it worth while yet.

For every tank of petrol and diesel there is enough electricity consumed at the refinery to drive an ev 80-100 miles, this is before transportation of the oil to the refinery - to the garage and this isn't including any other energy mix.

Your claim was

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I guess though my car is one of few models that can actually get it's claimed emissions ratings

While the emissions are undoubtedly lower, the stated figures are just as dubious as all others. You have zero control where your electricity comes from.

dr.fuzzenstein · 20-09-2015 8:02pm

alias no.9 wrote: »

Your claim was

While the emissions are undoubtedly lower, the stated figures are just as dubious as all others. You have zero control where your electricity comes from.

I have seen a new clause on German elelctricity bills. You can pay extra euro monies to "guarantee" that the elelctricity that comes out of your wallplugs is 100% organic, dolphin-friendly, hand-woven, made from non-GM, free-range, hand-reared elelctrons.
I have never in my life seen such an absolute steaming, mile-high pile of horse sh*t.
People who claim "my electricity doesn't kill penguins!" really should get their head examined. You get the same electrons as everyone else out your plug. Including some nuclear and (even worse!) English ones (boo! The Brits! 900 years, etc...!).

As for cheating the tests, of course. Limits are set by politicians who like to be seen to bang the table and "do something!", so they say "I think limits should go down by ooh, errr, lemme see, 20%! Yes, that sounds good, let it be decreed that emissions shall come down by 20% on pain of death!"
So the manufacturers have to find a way of meeting those targets any which way. if they are not realistically attainable (being decreed by technically clueless, windbag politicians), they have to find ways in which they can be achieved.
If cars really did meet the current mpg and emissions regulations in every real life situation, they would be utterly undrivable, 50hp max and 20 secs 0-100 km/h.

Fiat tried and as a result, the entry level 500 actually IS undrivable. This could be the future if cars have to meet all legislations at all times in the real world. 100 km/h will one day be remembered like cigarette ads on TV.

http://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/fiat-500-powerful-enough-hills-says-bbcs-watchdog-1107954951

I'm going to get an even smokier diesel in the future, can anyone tell me how to get this really massive James Bond wall of smoke on dropping a gear?

robtri · 20-09-2015 8:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I

BMW have ambitious plans to scrap diesel by 2020.

.

This interests me, have you a link or anything, I can't find anythign about this, BMW seem to be continuing to use diesel and are trying to stop Paris banning diesel engines in 2020.....

John T Carroll · 20-09-2015 8:46pm

robtri wrote: »

This interests me, have you a link or anything, I can't find anythign about this, BMW seem to be continuing to use diesel and are trying to stop Paris banning diesel engines in 2020.....

Could this just possibly be the solution to all our problems?, of course methane gas presents its own challenges.

colm_mcm · 20-09-2015 9:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

BMW have ambitious plans to scrap diesel by 2020.

They've made a good start in the last few years anyway.

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly · 20-09-2015 9:56pm

Lissavane wrote: »

I'd have thought that the NCT might detect this scam

:D:D

Comhrá · 20-09-2015 11:04pm

Volkswagen's CEO comes clean.....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/20/volkswagen-ceo-martin-winterkorn-apologizes-epa-clean-air-act-emissions-violations/72519678/

jimgoose · 20-09-2015 11:23pm

tippman1 wrote: »

Volkswagen's CEO comes clean...

There's a man backpedalling faster than a Passat ECU that's detected a smog scan.

jimgoose · 20-09-2015 11:31pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

...can anyone tell me how to get this really massive James Bond wall of smoke on dropping a gear?

You want to Roll Coal, boy. There are gizmos that alter fuel maps for this, but the pro Rednecks favour huge-ass injectors as well.

galwaytt · 21-09-2015 12:31am

....same reason Toyota Auris Hybrid I've had a couple of times comes nowhere near manufacturer claims for mpg...

galwaytt · 21-09-2015 12:57am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Probably a lot less than the emissions in the refinery process of petrol and diesel, and the transportation involved. Then there's all the chemicals used in the process. Then add to the fact the Internal combustion engine is 20-30% efficient V 80-85% for the EV. We have up to 40% energy from wind now and growing. You also have the choice to charge via your own wind turbine or solar PV. Coal accounts for about 15-20% of our energy mix. Except for the last few days which have been pretty calm. So you need a lot more ev batteries to store all the excess wind energy we get rather than export some of it. Wind at night can be used to charge EV batteries. We have plenty of spare capacity at night while all the power stations have to keep burning fuel to be ready for demand.

I don't think my electricity comes from money point anyway, most likely a Gas fired plant with mix of wind.

The EV also needs no oil throughout it's life, no filters, no spark plugs, no glow plugs, belts etc. The battery can be reused and broken down after. Very little lithium goes into the production of batteries so currently it's not worth extracting it but that's because there is not enough batteries to make it worth while yet.

For every tank of petrol and diesel there is enough electricity consumed at the refinery to drive an ev 80-100 miles, this is before transportation of the oil to the refinery - to the garage and this isn't including any other energy mix.

The words 'probably ' and 'I don't think etc' are the kind of thing you'd found in a ..... VW emissions test..ðŸ˜‚

galwaytt · 21-09-2015 1:04am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If I had done all my driving by night rate electricity this year it would have cost me so far to drive 20,600 Kms about 190 euro's , but since a lot of my charging is done by free public charging it's cost me a lot less.

True - and I'd never turn down free fuel..... but it's me who's paying your fuel bill. ....hardly fair that, is it. ... ?

John T Carroll · 21-09-2015 12:35pm

tippman1 wrote: »

Volkswagen's CEO comes clean.....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/20/volkswagen-ceo-martin-winterkorn-apologizes-epa-clean-air-act-emissions-violations/72519678/

I still find it mind boggling that they could be so "thick"......surely not all manufacturers are that stupid?.

moleyv · 21-09-2015 12:38pm

Stock prices dropping hard.

Henry Ford III · 21-09-2015 12:51pm

moleyv wrote: »

Stock prices dropping hard.

Hardly surprising. This is a big hit for VW, and possibly as damaging as the Toyota fiascos.

dr.fuzzenstein · 21-09-2015 2:00pm

John T Carroll wrote: »

I still find it mind boggling that they could be so "thick"......surely not all manufacturers are that stupid?.

My bet, they're all at it, they just haven't been found out yet. If you were to design a car that met all the latest emissions regulations under real life driving conditions AND do 64 MPG, it would not do 100 mph or hit 60 in under 10 seconds.
I just don't know what all the fuss is about. A braindead baboon would know that you just CANNOT design a car that drives as we expect it AND hit all emissions and MPG targets. Just because some politicians decree it to be done doesn't make it possible.

Joe 90 · 21-09-2015 2:03pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I have seen a new clause on German elelctricity bills. You can pay extra euro monies to "guarantee" that the elelctricity that comes out of your wallplugs is 100% organic, dolphin-friendly, hand-woven, made from non-GM, free-range, hand-reared elelctrons.
I have never in my life seen such an absolute steaming, mile-high pile of horse sh*t.
People who claim "my electricity doesn't kill penguins!" really should get their head examined. You get the same electrons as everyone else out your plug. Including some nuclear and (even worse!) English ones (boo! The Brits! 900 years, etc...!).

As for cheating the tests, of course. Limits are set by politicians who like to be seen to bang the table and "do something!", so they say "I think limits should go down by ooh, errr, lemme see, 20%! Yes, that sounds good, let it be decreed that emissions shall come down by 20% on pain of death!"
So the manufacturers have to find a way of meeting those targets any which way. if they are not realistically attainable (being decreed by technically clueless, windbag politicians), they have to find ways in which they can be achieved.
If cars really did meet the current mpg and emissions regulations in every real life situation, they would be utterly undrivable, 50hp max and 20 secs 0-100 km/h.

Fiat tried and as a result, the entry level 500 actually IS undrivable. This could be the future if cars have to meet all legislations at all times in the real world. 100 km/h will one day be remembered like cigarette ads on TV.

http://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/fiat-500-powerful-enough-hills-says-bbcs-watchdog-1107954951

I'm going to get an even smokier diesel in the future, can anyone tell me how to get this really massive James Bond wall of smoke on dropping a gear?

TBH, it is not really that long since 20 secs 0-100 km/h was considered pretty acceptable performance in Ireland. Nack in the late 60s, the A60/morris Oxford was considered a pretty desireable car by the masses in Ireland and I'm pretty certain the tha 0-60mph time was over 20 seconds. The claimed bhp was 60, presumably SAE. but that would have been closer to 50 bhp DIN

In it's favour it was RWD and things happened slowly enough for people to learn waht to do when it went sideways, which was at very low cornering speeds due to skinny cross ply tyres and primitive suspension.

Joe 90 · 21-09-2015 2:08pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

My bet, they're all at it, they just haven't been found out yet. If you were to design a car that met all the latest emissions regulations under real life driving conditions AND do 64 MPG, it would not do 100 mph or hit 60 in under 10 seconds.
I just don't know what all the fuss is about. A braindead baboon would know that you just CANNOT design a car that drives as we expect it AND hit all emissions and MPG targets. Just because some politicians decree it to be done doesn't make it possible.

I suspect that you could do it but you would have to forgo all the luxery toys that people have become accustomed to.

My old S1 Elise would do about 50 mpg driven legally on a motorway. Given that it was not particulary aerodynamic, had what would be considered an old tech engine today (Rover K) and only had a 5 speed gearbox it should be possible to do a lot better these days.

dr.fuzzenstein · 21-09-2015 2:33pm

Joe 90 wrote: »

I suspect that you could do it but you would have to forgo all the luxery toys that people have become accustomed to.

My old S1 Elise would do about 50 mpg driven legally on a motorway. Given that it was not particulary aerodynamic, had what would be considered an old tech engine today (Rover K) and only had a 5 speed gearbox it should be possible to do a lot better these days.

The Elise could do it (very sceptical about you 50 mpg, maybe at 30 km/h?), but it certainly wasn't strangled by all that emission nonsense and didn't have 2 tons worth of gadgets onboard.
The problem is to do it whilst hitting the emissions, doing 60+ mpg, stuffing the car with (mostly useless) gadgets AND retaining some kind of drivability.
Gadgets are an issue, we want the heated pedals, illuminated aerial, pulsating steering wheel, more and more screens and driver aids (for people who would otherwise crash within 100 meters), more and more airbags, trick suspension, a million electric motors and a million buttons of course.
All the toys, 60+ real life mpg, 0-60 <10 secs, top speed 120 mph AND hitting all emissions? Simply can't be done.
The problem is, new emissions regulations come along, dictated by bureaucrats who have zero engineering or even technical knowledge, so if the old standards were difficult to hit, how can the manufacturers hit the new ones? Simply idiotic to expect this to continue indefinitely.
Not with ICE technology alone. It will have to go electric, hydrogen or hybrid.

Joe 90 · 21-09-2015 3:10pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

The Elise could do it (very sceptical about you 50 mpg, maybe at 30 km/h?), but it certainly wasn't strangled by all that emission nonsense and didn't have 2 tons worth of gadgets onboard.
The problem is to do it whilst hitting the emissions, doing 60+ mpg, stuffing the car with (mostly useless) gadgets AND retaining some kind of drivability.
Gadgets are an issue, we want the heated pedals, illuminated aerial, pulsating steering wheel, more and more screens and driver aids (for people who would otherwise crash within 100 meters), more and more airbags, trick suspension, a million electric motors and a million buttons of course.
All the toys, 60+ real life mpg, 0-60 <10 secs, top speed 120 mph AND hitting all emissions? Simply can't be done.
The problem is, new emissions regulations come along, dictated by bureaucrats who have zero engineering or even technical knowledge, so if the old standards were difficult to hit, how can the manufacturers hit the new ones? Simply idiotic to expect this to continue indefinitely.
Not with ICE technology alone. It will have to go electric, hydrogen or hybrid.

The Elise would do it OK even though it was not particularly aerodynamic in the drag coefficient department. It did, however, have a fairyly low frontal area so of course the total darga was in fact pretty low.
Agreed of course about all the junk that people regard as necessary these days. If you want low fuel consumption, whcic is a side effect of low emissions, you must build it small and light. Not just the politicos who don't know or want to know baic physics, it's the consumer too.

jimgoose · 21-09-2015 3:45pm

Lissavane wrote: »

...I'd have thought that the NCT might detect this scam, if it did take place in VWs sold in Ireland. But maybe not, if the software detects when it is under test conditions.

The software only adjusts certain readings reported by the OBD-II system when a test scan-pattern is identified. The NCT could blow this scam wide open the same way those youngsters at West Virginia University did, i.e. by performing an actual gas analysis. Guess what? They don't. I'm still waiting for an explanation from the NCTS for this, it would appear the Ultans and Aoifes are running around racking their leaving certs to come up with a gobshíte yarn to spin me. :pac::pac::pac:

Poulgorm · 21-09-2015 6:13pm

The more you read about this, the worse it gets. This was not incompetence - it was an intentional, premeditated crime by the VAG group.

This will cost them.

Next question: Are VAG also cheating with their European cars?

Next questions: are other car makers guilty? There was an article in the Sunday Times a few months ago - I think it was about the diesel Mazda 6 - which, in real life, was emitting way above the Euro 6 limits.

Angela will pull out all the stops to protect them

dr.fuzzenstein · 21-09-2015 6:39pm

Poulgorm wrote: »

The more you read about this, the worse it gets. This was not incompetence - it was an intentional, premeditated crime by the VAG group.

This will cost them.

Next question: Are VAG also cheating with their European cars?

Next questions: are other car makers guilty? There was an article in the Sunday Times a few months ago - I think it was about the diesel Mazda 6 - which, in real life, was emitting way above the Euro 6 limits.

Angela will pull out all the stops to protect them

Does the pope sh*t in the woods?

:P
As I said before, it is impossible to make a car that fulfills all emissions standards, does 60+ mpg, weighs 1600 kg with all the electric toys and safety equipment, goes 0-60 in under 10 seconds and has a top speed of over 100 mph.
Seriously, I'm stating that water is wet and the sky is blue here. If anyone seriously thought cars could achieve all this in the real world, they are more gullible than a new born kitten.
Really if you think about it, there have been many stories over the years that real life mgp and emmissions are nowhere near the latest standards.

Edit:
If it turns out that VW alone is guilty of this and all other makes of cars really fulfil all those criteria, I will eat my CMax!

Disclaimer: Bet will not be honoured!

Marge: "'Epa.' What could that be?"
Comic Book Guy: "I believe it's the sound the Green Lantern made when Sinestro threw him into a vat of acid. Ee-pah!"

pred racer · 21-09-2015 7:13pm

I'm in France at the moment, this story is getting big air on all the news shows

gctest50 · 21-09-2015 7:18pm

Poulgorm wrote: »

........
This will cost them.

......

It'll cost them even more when people start dropping their VW's back to the dealerships and demanding their money back

21-09-2015 8:34pm

The US Department of Justice are now launching a criminal investigation into it. This is very bad for VW, some executives could even prosecution.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-us-government-is-launching-a-criminal-investigation-into-vws-falsified-emissions-figures-2015-9?r=US&IR=T

Fiskar · 21-09-2015 8:36pm

We had a VW diesel and have a PSA engined diesel car. Always struck me as odd how the VW car did not use an additive and did not have a set timeframe for dpf replacement (almost sold as self cleaning), fairly obvious now that VW uses software to control just about everything that car did.

Think the end is nigh for diesel and because of this the emissions test will change. Untold damage has been done to the diesel car market.
Thank god we got rid of the VW diesel but am stuck with an 8 year old diesel that is at least NCT'd for 2 more years. It will be worth nothing by then.

BoatMad · 21-09-2015 8:57pm

VW are now stoping all sales of affected new and secondhand vehicles. This will destroy their market share

It will not affect any other auto maker as VW in the states was a leader in diesels,

Here diesels have nearly had it. The technology cannot get cleaner without completely hobbling the engine

trying to manipulate various tests has been going on for years , fuel maps modified to be most efficient at test speeds etc

but VW have really screwed this big time, I doubt Winterkorn will survive this not with the Piesch family gunning for him

Fiskar · 21-09-2015 9:08pm

BoatMad, agree with that, Winterkorn has been knobbled. He won't survive this VW-Audi will have serious pain. Can see this breaking up the group and them offloading Skoda and Seat to regain credibility.
Germany on the back foot yet again

EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

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