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The unfolding story in Tuam

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    #62
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    More word games. Perhaps you would like to just have a conversation with yourself if you insist on putting words in everyones mouth.
    Every time you are incapable of answering a question, does the phrase "WORD GAMES" spring to mind instantly as some sort of useful response?


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    #63
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Which would be the better thing to do:
    Review records in possession of the State, to see if willful neglect, maltreatment, manslaughter or murder has occurred?

    or

    Excavate a site with an indeterminate number of skeletal remains, which will mean lots of man hours; the sorting, enumerating, recording and identification of each individual. Testing those remains to determine which era they expired in and then having to re-inter them. And the possibility of doing this for every site across the Nation.

    Which do you think is the best approach?
    Have EITHER of these been done?
    Is there not even the slightest possibility that government records are incorrect when the relevant babies end up in sewers?


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    #64
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Every time you are incapable of answering a question, does the phrase "WORD GAMES" spring to mind instantly as some sort of useful response?

    Do you always make statements into questions to try ant attribute them to others?


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    #65
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Do you always make statements into questions to try ant attribute them to others?
    Do you always just make stuff up?
    Can you answer or not, where did I "single out" the Gardai by mentioning them in a thread about the Gardai?
    Is this another "word game"?


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    #66
    mufflets2
    Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭mufflets2


    No one can possibly know if every single dead baby in the unmarked mass grave
    is correctly and legal reflected in the "death certificates" presented by the people who saw fit to dump them in a ceptic tank.


    No one can possibly know that there is no evidence of miss-treatment of these infants without examining bodies (especially considering what we now know about how single mothers, orphans ect were treated at the time).

    Someone who would dump baby bodies in a Ceptic tank should not be trusted if they said that the sky were blue , in my opinion

    This is beyond ridiculous and smacks of collusion and cover up by both guarda and church


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    #67
    roadsmart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 625 ✭✭✭roadsmart


    IMO this is a matter for investigation by the Dept of Health and children, and if evidence of criminality is uncovered or suspected by that investigation then it should be passed to the relevant authority, ie the Guards. I don't see any post here saying there shouldn't be an investigation, but I do see a lot of emotionally and badly thought out posts.


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    #68
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    roadsmart wrote: »
    I don't see any post here saying there shouldn't be an investigation, but I do see a lot of emotionally and badly thought out posts.
    Yes, when it comes to trying to defend An Garda Siochana that does tend to happen.


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    #69
    roadsmart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 625 ✭✭✭roadsmart


    I can assure you I have no reason to defend anyone mentioned in this thread, but don't let that stop your musings.


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    #70
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Nothing to see, move on, your imagining it all then is it?

    Did I write that? No.

    I wrote - and feel free to correct me if you have evidence that proves otherwise - that there is no valid reason to suspect that the nuns killed people in their care. The Medical records have been in the possession of the State since the Institution closed down. RTE News showed some of these records on the 6 o clock News last week and using the "pause" function on the Sky box, it was possible to read a lot of information on the actual records, regarding the health of the children.
    Regarding the burial method; I will wait for more information.


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    #71
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Have EITHER of these been done?
    Is there not even the slightest possibility that government records are incorrect when the relevant babies end up in sewers?

    Oh my!....I gave those options -not as standard procedures - but as a means to make you think as to which would be the best method of approach.

    I'll simplify: it's cheaper and more efficient to review the records first, to see if there is anything out of the ordinary instead of spending truckloads of Public money on excavating a burial ground, testing every skeleton, cataloging every bone and then reburying every bone after finding that the people died of pretty much what their medical record says they died from. Do you understand?

    Now, the method of burial is unpleasant and a better location could have been found, but I await the reasoning that will be offered


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    #72
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So you know there is no evidence before there has been an investigation...
    So once more, if the Gardai find bodies in unmarked graves there is never a need for an investigation?

    The shoe is on the other foot now?

    Based on the available evidence (and there is enough of it out there), there is nothing to immediately suspect foul-play.

    Unmarked mass graves mean nothing: there are two, relatively close to my house: a paupers grave and a Famine grave.
    A grave in the grounds of a Hospital/Abandoned Children Home isn't very surprising- Ireland was a third-World Country then and it is hard now, to imagine the Poverty that existed then. Medical care was available but the money wasn't.
    The Sisters kept records of what happened and when someone died in there, it was recorded and they were 'buried'.


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    #73
    michael999999
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    The shoe is on the other foot now?

    Based on the available evidence (and there is enough of it out there), there is nothing to immediately suspect foul-play.

    Unmarked mass graves mean nothing: there are two, relatively close to my house: a paupers grave and a Famine grave.
    A grave in the grounds of a Hospital/Abandoned Children Home isn't very surprising- Ireland was a third-World Country then and it is hard now, to imagine the Poverty that existed then. Medical care was available but the money wasn't.
    The Sisters kept records of what happened and when someone died in there, it was recorded and they were 'buried'.

    Bull****. The nuns were paid to look after them kids!

    They weren't doing it as a vocation, the evil B*****s!


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    #74
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    michael999999 wrote: »
    Bull****. The nuns were paid to look after them kids!

    They weren't doing it as a vocation, the evil B*****s!

    Look after them with what? Water and bread?
    There was as much money available for them as there was love.


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    #75
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Look after them with what? Water and bread?
    There was as much money available for them as there was love.
    The nuns received £26 for each mother and £26 for each baby. Add that to the money the church was earning for the mother's slave labour and there was a fair bit of money available.
    Shows you how much you know about this "case" doesn't it that you've already pronounced entirely above board.


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    #76
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Has anyone denied they are there? What particular aspect do you think requires Garda investigation? What evidential value could there be in sealing off the area and digging up the bodies?
    The illegal disposal of bodies is a crime.

    This article appears to suggest the Garda are looking again at the issue, its from last Thursday though.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda%C3%AD-examining-whether-crimes-committed-at-tuam-site-1.1822114


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    #77
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The nuns received £26 for each mother and £26 for each baby. Add that to the money the church was earning for the mother's slave labour and there was a fair bit of money available.
    Shows you how much you know about this "case" doesn't it that you've already pronounced entirely above board.

    I know little about the conditions, operations and actions of what transpired in Tuam. That is why I'm remaining open-minded, rather than immediately assuming evil motives and mass-murder of 800 people.
    What I do know has led me to believe that this won't turn out to be as horrific as some people secretly hope.


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    #78
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Archbishop Diarmuid Martin just said the first thing that needs to happen is a judicial investigation.

    So the Garda stand on their own in their refusal to accept this.


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    #79
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    I know little about the conditions, operations and actions of what transpired in Tuam.
    You just told us you did and there was no need for an investigation.
    We did notice that you know...


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    #80
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    mufflets2 wrote: »
    Someone who would dump baby bodies in a Ceptic tank should not be trusted if they said that the sky were blue , in my opinion

    Today's Independent quotes "locals believe they were dumped beside a septic tank over the years"
    1: Beside a septic tank and in a septic tank are two very different things. Everyone has been furious - and rightly so - about children/people being thrown into a septic tank, but this has been shown to be false journalism.
    2: The word "dumped" is another emotive term used by a Media that has already been shown to be partial and deliberately misleading and inaccurate.

    Yet, this language and loose reporting has had free-reign for nearly two weeks now and no-one seeks to retract?

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/baby-deaths-now-gardai-probe-the-tuam-mass-grave-30337463.html


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    #81
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Beside a septic tank and in a septic tank are two very different things.
    Except both are illegal. So kind of the same.


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    #82
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    The amount of hair splitting, semantics and word play on show in this thread by some is quite something to behold.

    Anything to avoid and detract.


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    #83
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Theres other threads for debating the wider issues of this case.

    This is the Emergency Services forum, can we leave it to people who might have some actual knowledge of how these things work to explain why there is no apparent investigation of the site.


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    #84
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,067 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Looks like things are happening at last :)
    TWO senior gardai are to conduct a "fact-finding" mission into the deaths of 796 babies believed to be buried in a mass grave in Tuam, the Sunday Independent has learned.

    They have been asked to gather all surviving records, including death certificates and the ledgers kept by the mother and baby home until it closed in 1961. Crucially, the officers are also expected to carry out preliminary tests on the site of the suspected mass grave, which lies on the edge of a housing estate in the Galway town.


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    #85
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Looks like things are happening at last :)


    Now watch the sudden disappearance / silence from certain posters on this thread....


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    #86
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    drumswan wrote: »
    Except both are illegal. So kind of the same.

    I admit I'm not up to date on regulations regarding burial but am I correct in thinking your anger about this is that the children died and were illegally buried?
    I seem to recall many people explicitly referring to "being dumped in a septic tank" as the horrifying aspect of this situation, but it was the illegal burying all along...


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    #87
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    The amount of hair splitting, semantics and word play on show in this thread by some is quite something to behold.

    Anything to avoid and detract.

    Is this directed towards me?

    Burying beside a septic tank and dumping in a septic tank is "wordplay"? Whatever School taught you failed (The RCC is to blame again!)


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    #88
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Now watch the sudden disappearance / silence from certain posters on this thread....

    You realise nothing has changed? They are merely complying with a request by the Minister for Justice. And as you and Dan have proven, it's all about the perception. Nothing of value will be accomplished but at least it makes you feel better.


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    #89
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    You realise nothing has changed? They are merely complying with a request by the Minister for Justice. And as you and Dan have proven, it's all about the perception. Nothing of value will be accomplished but at least it makes you feel better.
    Wow, you could just tell them you have completed the investigation in your head so there's no need for any other Gardai to bother actually visiting the site.


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    #90
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,067 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    You realise nothing has changed? They are merely complying with a request by the Minister for Justice. And as you and Dan have proven, it's all about the perception. Nothing of value will be accomplished but at least it makes you feel better.

    You almost sound as if you want 'nothing of value' to be accomplished.

    You're right that they are only following orders from the minister, and hopefully people will continue to point out that the minister herself has known about this since 2011, and until the other day completely ignored it. She, as Children's Minister could have at any stage demanded that an inquiry be set up, which would have saved a lot of the embarrassment they, gardai and the country as a whole are now facing.

    I think people have had enough, if public pressure is what it takes to have things investigated and addressed then long may that pressure continue.


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    #91
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Wow, you could just tell them you have completed the investigation in your head so there's no need for any other Gardai to bother actually visiting the site.

    This is funny! And by funny, I mean pathetic.

    24-48 hours ago, cooler heads were advising people to wait until an investigation was concluded before drawing conclusions.
    Now those people are being treated as if they are trying to prevent it.

    Dogs chasing tails...first, one direction, then the other.


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