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The unfolding story in Tuam

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    #32
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Do you not at least think that Gardai should be present at the site? There are scores of reporters there from all over the world and it looks terrible that our police force don't appear to be bothered enough to show up.

    Whatever about any future investigation, is it not still a potential crime scene? The fact that a tabloid has hired a company to do radar searches before Gardai have even examined the area is quite simply shameful.

    What potential crime though? A crime scene.
    Resonator75 wrote: »
    I did not insult anyone. Yeah,by all means lets have an inquiry. But maybe secure the bloody scene first so we can have a well founded inquiry??

    The Garda are deeply complicit in this.

    We want some simple basic police work carried out here.

    Thats what they are there for.

    If you fail to see this then its yet another reason that I have no confidence in our national police force.

    Its black and white. What would happen in the exact same situation in the UK?

    and by the way, Id be slammed in the clink if a load of bodies were found in my garden until it was established what had happened.

    Why is this different?

    It's different because it was never hidden. Death certs were issued and the bodies were buried in this makeshift graveyard. While it may have been callous, it was not illegal.

    Let me ask you this. What evidence do you think would be recovered at the site? Do you think the bodies should all be dug up?


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    #33
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    What potential crime though? A crime scene.



    It's different because it was never hidden. Death certs were issued and the bodies were buried in this makeshift graveyard. While it may have been callous, it was not illegal.

    Let me ask you this. What evidence do you think would be recovered at the site? Do you think the bodies should all be dug up?


    We need to establish exactly what happened here, and YES absolutely they should be dug up , accounted for and given a popper burial.
    Their memory deserves that from the state at the very least.

    would you like your kin to be dumped in a $hit tank?


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    #34
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    We need to establish exactly what happened here, and YES absolutely they should be dug up , accounted for and given a popper burial.
    Their memory deserves that from the state at the very least.

    would you like your kin to be dumped in a $hit tank?

    My kin? Who do you think sent them to those places in the first place?


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    #35
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    My kin? Who do you think sent them to those places in the first place?

    You know what I mean. You don't address my points and keep trying to deflect.

    Ive made my points clearly. I think decency is on my side.


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    #36
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    It's different because it was never hidden. Death certs were issued and the bodies were buried in this makeshift graveyard. While it may have been callous, it was not illegal.
    You cant just bury dead bodies wherever you like in this country. If bodies were found in my garden would the Gardai just ignore it?


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    #37
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    You know what I mean. You don't address my points and keep trying to deflect.

    Ive made my points clearly. I think decency is on my side.

    Your points are all based on emotion as opposed to logic. You haven't yet said what crime should be investigated or why it needs to be a crime scene. I've not denied it needs to be investigated, I'm merely saying it shouldn't be a criminal investigation.


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    #38
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Your points are all based on emotion as opposed to logic. You haven't yet said what crime should be investigated or why it needs to be a crime scene. I've not denied it needs to be investigated, I'm merely saying it shouldn't be a criminal investigation.


    Dont condescend me.

    My posts are emotive because our police force is determined to do nothing at a majorly dodgy , possibly criminal , scene while the world looks on.

    Damn right Im emotional, you will just defend anything and every thing to protect the status quo.

    Ill make it clear, for the SECOND time-

    1. Investigate the scene

    2. If evidence of wrong doing is found , proceed with a criminal investigation, based of facts gathered.

    3. Hold an independat public inquiry.

    The Garda want to avoid steps 1 & 2 because of possible blowback from their inaction/enabling at the time.



    This is policing 101.


    What would happen in the UK in this situation? You have not answered.

    Ill answer you, they are professional modern force, they woyd investigate the scene before pre-ordaining the outcome as you are determined to do.


    Pathetic.


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    #39
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Your points are all based on emotion as opposed to logic. You haven't yet said what crime should be investigated or why it needs to be a crime scene.
    Can you explain how dead bodies, some less than 50 years old, in an unsanctioned, unmarked location, do not warrant investigation?


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    #40
    mufflets2
    Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭mufflets2


    this is a disgrace
    There is obviously some reason why the Garda have not secured a potential crime scene for proper investigation and the reason cannot be a good one,

    I thought that the guards would have learned some lessons from recent episodes

    I feel sorry for genuine and hard working gardai whom I am sure are as puzzled as I am at what appears to be an attempt to brush this under the mat.


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    #41
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Your points are all based on emotion as opposed to logic. You haven't yet said what crime should be investigated or why it needs to be a crime scene. I've not denied it needs to be investigated, I'm merely saying it shouldn't be a criminal investigation.
    Are you claiming it's Garda policy not to investigate human remains in unmarked graves? I must remember that one for later.
    Have the Gardai established the age of these remains?


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    #42
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Dont condescend me.

    My posts are emotive because our police force is determined to do nothing at a majorly dodgy , possibly criminal , scene while the world looks on.

    Damn right Im emotional, you will just defend anything and every thing to protect the status quo.

    Like I said, you are not thinking things through logically because you are letting the emotional impact of the situation overwhelm you. I'm not exactly sure what status quo you think I'm defending.
    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Ill make it clear, for the SECOND time-

    1. Investigate the scene

    2. If evidence of wrong doing is found , proceed with a criminal investigation, based of facts gathered.

    3. Hold an independat public inquiry.

    The Garda want to avoid steps 1 & 2 because of possible blowback from their inaction/enabling at the time.

    This is policing 101.

    Do you actually think there is one person in the force or in the government who would have been in the job back when any of this happened? There is no blowback to worry about.

    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Pathetic.

    And again with the insults.


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    #43
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Like I said, you are not thinking things through logically because you are letting the emotional impact of the situation overwhelm you. I'm not exactly sure what status quo you think I'm defending.



    Do you actually think there is one person in the force or in the government who would have been in the job back when any of this happened? There is no blowback to worry about.




    And again with the insults.

    Well your a might condescending. I am being logical, you are the illogical one here.

    I am saying the Garda inaction is pathetic, lets not act precious here and imply im calling you personally pathetic. I know how to remain unbanned.
    Do you actually think there is one person in the force or in the government who would have been in the job back when any of this happened? There is no blowback to worry about.

    Not the point , the state protects itself at all costs, laundries, illegal vaccinations, abuse by the church, Alan Shatter, on and on and on..



    Care to address post #39 and post #41 before you have another pop at me?


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    #44
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Like I said, you are not thinking things through logically because you are letting the emotional impact of the situation overwhelm you. I'm not exactly sure what status quo you think I'm defending.
    Boucher-hayes has reported to the Gardai that there are childrens bodies illegally dumped in a location in Tuam. They first confused the site with another famine era site and now are saying nothing. Someone must be instructing Tuam Gardai not to investigate, no?


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    #45
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Do you actually think there is one person in the force or in the government who would have been in the job back when any of this happened?
    Nobody asked if there was because it is irrelevant.
    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    There is no blowback to worry about.
    If it turns out that Gardai were ignoring abuse of 100s of children 50 years ago, do you think this will have no effect whatsoever on the public perception of the Gardai?


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    #46
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Yeah, lots of rinky-dink pot busts to be carried out this weekend in Tuam.

    Good to see they got their priorities in order.

    Pot is the new poteen. I remember seeing fat guards on TV back in the 80s breaking up mash barrels. They are enforcers and revenue collectors for the state, not protectors of the people.


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    #47
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    drumswan wrote: »
    Can you explain how dead bodies, some less than 50 years old, in an unsanctioned, unmarked location, do not warrant investigation?

    Never said they didn't require investigation. I've said a number of times that a public enquiry should be held. I don;t believe the Gardaí should investigate it because I don't think it's a criminal matter.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Are you claiming it's Garda policy not to investigate human remains in unmarked graves? I must remember that one for later.
    Have the Gardai established the age of these remains?

    I'm saying it's not worth digging up a graveyard without cause to think there is a crime to investigate.
    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Well your a might condescending. I am being logical, you are the illogical one here.

    You're logic is influenced by your emotional reaction. You want the bodies dug up to be identified and reburied. Do you actually think any evidence would be gleaned from them?
    Resonator75 wrote: »
    I am saying the Garda inaction is pathetic, lets not act precious here and imply im calling you personally pathetic. I know how to remain unbanned.

    I know what you meant.
    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Not the point , the state protects itself at all costs, laundries, illegal vaccinations, abuse by the church, Alan Shatter, on and on and on

    The State is run by people in the present. I don't think the current government has shown any indication of protecting the church.
    drumswan wrote: »
    Boucher-hayes has reported to the Gardai that there are childrens bodies illegally dumped in a location in Tuam. They first confused the site with another famine era site and now are saying nothing. Someone must be instructing Tuam Gardai not to investigate, no?

    Has anyone denied they are there? What particular aspect do you think requires Garda investigation? What evidential value could there be in sealing off the area and digging up the bodies?


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    #48
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Nobody asked if there was because it is irrelevant.
    If it turns out that Gardai were ignoring abuse of 100s of children 50 years ago, do you think this will have no effect whatsoever on the public perception of the Gardai?

    Everyone was ignoring the abuses. Why would the Gardaí be singled out?


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    #49
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Everyone was ignoring the abuses. Why would the Gardaí be singles out?
    Why did you assume the Gardai would be singled out?
    Are you claiming they should be for some reason? I never claimed that.


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    #50
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Why did you assume the Gardai would be singled out?

    Because you specifically stated
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    public perception of the Gardai?

    If you want to play word games I suggest you try After Hours.


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    #51
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    You're logic is influenced by your emotional reaction. You want the bodies dug up to be identified and reburied. Do you actually think any evidence would be gleaned from them?
    Do the Gardai ever need to actually investigate anything or do they all just decide immediately whether there's evidence of criminal activity or not like you are demanding here?


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    #52
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Because you specifically stated
    I specifically stated the Gardai would be impacted if the Gardai were found to have been negligent.
    This thread is about the Gardai's response to the Tuam babies.
    Once more, please show me where I said the Gardai would or should be singled out.
    Hint: saying something does not imply or mean you mean only that thing.


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    #53
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Do the Gardai ever need to actually investigate anything or do they all just decide immediately whether there's evidence of criminal activity or not like you are demanding here?


    Thanks Dan, thats it in a Nutshell.

    It has been decided that there is nothing to see here.

    No crime has been committed.

    Conclusion reached without a jot of investigation.

    That is not good enough from a modern day police force.


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    #54
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    mikom wrote: »
    Cross Ward............ a lot of Cross wards in Tuam.

    Try not to think so linear, Phoebas.

    A cryptic cross ward!


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    #55
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    If you want to play word games I suggest you try After Hours.
    You think
    public perception of the Gardai?
    is a "word game"? Are you having trouble deciphering that phrase?


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    #56
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    My name is URL wrote: »
    I have a few questions about how things are being done.

    How come Gardai aren't doing any sort of investigation?

    Why in the name of feck, is a potentially huge crime-scene not being secured by Gardai?

    If they can't launch an investigation at present then fine, but it is still a potential crime scene, right? What happens if potential evidence is interfered with?

    There are reports on RTE that a private firm have been drafted in by the Irish Daily Mail to do a radar examination


    The world's media are in Tuam and there's not a Garda to be seen around the site. It's bizarre. Surely they could at least secure the area until a decision is made on whether or not an investigation is launched?

    1: There is no evidence of a crime having being committed. The 796 figure is the total number of deaths or something. There is no evidence whatsoever, that the Nuns killed anyone there. The medical and death records of everyone there, have been in the possession of the Govt. since the venues closure in the 60's.

    2: The word "dumped" is a Media add-on. C Corless never used that word, but the Media have used it to describe the burial practice. As yet, I don't know if they septic tank was being used as a septic tank when the bodies were interred in it.


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    #57
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    1: There is no evidence of a crime having being committed. The 796 figure is the total number of deaths or something. There is no evidence whatsoever, that the Nuns killed anyone there. The medical and death records of everyone there, have been in the possession of the Govt. since the venues closure in the 60's.

    2: The word "dumped" is a Media add-on. C Corless never used that word, but the Media have used it to describe the burial practice. As yet, I don't know if they septic tank was being used as a septic tank when the bodies were interred in it.


    Nothing to see, move on, your imagining it all then is it?


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    #58
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Do the Gardai ever need to actually investigate anything or do they all just decide immediately whether there's evidence of criminal activity or not like you are demanding here?

    If something is reported to the Gardaí the first thing to decide is whether there is any crime to investigate. As resonator said, that's policing 101. If there is no indication of a crime then there is no investigation.


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    #59
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    1: There is no evidence of a crime having being committed. The 796 figure is the total number of deaths or something. There is no evidence whatsoever, that the Nuns killed anyone there. The medical and death records of everyone there, have been in the possession of the Govt. since the venues closure in the 60's.
    So you know there is no evidence before there has been an investigation...
    So once more, if the Gardai find bodies in unmarked graves there is never a need for an investigation?


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    #60
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So you know there is no evidence before there has been an investigation...
    So once more, if the Gardai find bodies in unmarked graves there is never a need for an investigation?

    More word games. Perhaps you would like to just have a conversation with yourself if you insist on putting words in everyones mouth.


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    #61
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Thanks Dan, thats it in a Nutshell.

    It has been decided that there is nothing to see here.

    No crime has been committed.

    Conclusion reached without a jot of investigation.

    That is not good enough from a modern day police force.

    Which would be the better thing to do:
    Review records in possession of the State, to see if willful neglect, maltreatment, manslaughter or murder has occurred?

    or

    Excavate a site with an indeterminate number of skeletal remains, which will mean lots of man hours; the sorting, enumerating, recording and identification of each individual. Testing those remains to determine which era they expired in and then having to re-inter them. And the possibility of doing this for every site across the Nation.

    Which do you think is the best approach?


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