How to revive the Irish language.

paullyons00 · 11-04-2012 8:42pm #1

In my opinion, the only way we can possibly revive the Irish language to make it the first language of the people, business and pleasure, is as follows:

All citizens below the age of 30 and above the age of 17 have 5 years to reach an agreed level of fluency.

Each will be assessed through an oral and written exam at the end of those 5 years.

If the candidate does not pass on his/her first exam, they will be given a second chance to pass but at a higher pass mark.

Any candidate who fails the second exam should be stripped of their rights and citizenship and should face a hefty prison sentence.

This may seem autocratic or communist, but in my view its the only way we can revive the language or else it will die out in years to come.

I'd love to hear your opinions on my way of thinking and alternative views on how we should go about reviving the language.

The King of Moo · 11-04-2012 8:43pm

That's one of the craziest things I've ever read!

Why not try having it actually taught properly to kids first!?

Dyr · 11-04-2012 8:44pm

Can we just ban all n00bs from AH? Srsly folks.

Pushtrak · 11-04-2012 8:44pm

How about we don't and pretend we did?

paullyons00 · 11-04-2012 8:44pm

I was expecting that sort of reaction.

Desperate times call for desperate measures however

Sparks43 · 11-04-2012 8:44pm

luck maith leis sin:rolleyes:

lividduck · 11-04-2012 8:45pm

And how would Sir like his Goatsmeat, braised,roasted, or boiled?

hairyprincess · 11-04-2012 8:45pm

yes because the prisons aren't over crowded enough already :-\

11-04-2012 8:46pm

that's stupid

bad op. bad!

PseudoFamous · 11-04-2012 8:47pm

You're some man for one man, Paul.

The King of Moo · 11-04-2012 8:48pm

paullyons00 wrote: »

I was expecting that sort of reaction.

Desperate times call for desperate measures however

But these aren't desperate times!

I'd love to see the language survive, but by teaching it well to kids then making it optional when they get to secondary school.

It's bad enough that it's poorly taught, because that makes people dislike the language and you have to like a language to be fluent in it.

Do you not see that threatening people with stripping their citizen's rights if they're not good enough is going to put them under a wee bit of pressure and make them hate Irish?

I'd rather 1,000 people passionate about the language spoke it than have everyone forced to speak it.

FatherLen · 11-04-2012 8:49pm

the king of moo is right. it just needs to be taught properly.
i think in first class i learned one thing and it was "an bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithreas".

Crann na Beatha · 11-04-2012 8:49pm

This post has been deleted.

paullyons00 · 11-04-2012 8:50pm

I expected to be critized harshly for my opinions on this matter.

you probably all think 'm some kind of pro-communist loo-la, I'm actually not

I just dont think their is any other way of achieving said goal.

11-04-2012 8:50pm

paullyons00 wrote: »

I expected to be critized harshly for my opinions on this matter.

you probably all think 'm some kind of pro-communist loo-la, I'm actually not

I just dont think their is any other way of achieving said goal.

it's a stupid goal, that's why

mackg · 11-04-2012 8:50pm

Better idea:

Imprison everybody immediately and force them to learn it, then do your system of two exams with all people failing the second being executed.

Hey presto 100% of the population can speak the language.

bb1234567 · 11-04-2012 8:50pm

So even if someones a slow learner or has below avg intelligence theyll end up going to jail if they arent fluent in the language after 5 years:eek: seems kind of harsh

The King of Moo · 11-04-2012 8:52pm

This sounds like Na Cluichí Ocrais.

lividduck · 11-04-2012 8:53pm

paullyons00 wrote: »

I expected to be critized harshly for my opinions on this matter.

you probably all think 'm some kind of pro-communist loo-la, I'm actually not

I just dont think their is any other way of achieving said goal.

Said goal is unacievable by any means. Now about that goatsmeat, decided which way you want it yet?

partyatmygaff · 11-04-2012 8:54pm

Why should we prop up a dying language instead of letting nature take its course?

bb1234567 · 11-04-2012 8:54pm

I think everyone should be forced to speak irish on the street in public and if caught speaking english there given a small fine of 10 euro or so. But only in public, and Im sure people will get used speaking irish so much from being out in public that theyll eventually begin to speak irish at home too. And tourists or non natives can be given some kind of card to wear or something so theyre not fined, and people are allowed speak to said people in english.

Iwasfrozen · 11-04-2012 8:56pm

paullyons00 wrote: »

Any candidate who fails the second exam should be stripped of their rights and citizenship and should face a hefty prison sentence.

Emm you know it's internationally illegal to take citizenship of a person who only has irish citizenship?

GaryIrv93 · 11-04-2012 8:56pm

With that OP, forcing people even more will create even further resentment and hatred towards Irish (if that's even possible). A bit harsh as well, considering that Irish is of little use in this day and age for most young people, so there's almost no point in forcing Irish down student's throats when it is of little to no benefit to them. A waste of time, money and total disrespect for student's rights.

If students were given the freedom to choose it or not then resentment would die down, and even more if Irish was taught better. That's how to revive a language.

Babybuff · 11-04-2012 8:57pm

would never work, the way Irish is taught makes it impossible to learn and use in our daily lives. It is mostly grammar based and less constructive to fluent expression. The only way to learn it would be to hear it spoken regularly and eventually you will be able to reciprocate. you can figure out the grammar afterwards.

Micky Dolenz · 11-04-2012 9:03pm

Another Irish language thread, just what we need.

Enkidu · 11-04-2012 9:08pm

Not extreme enough.

First of all anybody who doesn't speak Irish should be deported to our off-world colonies to work with the Irish speaking synthoid miners. The synthoids will be programmed with a systematic hate of English and will be permanently set to "sodomy mode". If the colonist learn enough Irish they can return to Earth on one of the G-class cruisers.

Stained Class · 11-04-2012 9:12pm

Aquila wrote: »

Is your surname Hitler by any chance?

Nah, I think it might be O'Hitler.

cocoshovel · 11-04-2012 9:13pm

Id rather emmigrate

Jess16 · 11-04-2012 9:13pm

Another thinly veiled teacher bashing thread :rolleyes:

Languages are learned through immersion and retained through use -not the incredibly limited number of hours permitted to teachers by the curriculum that they're supposed to work miracles with.

But hey, don't let that stop you from blaming teachers because you haven't bothered your barney to put in an ounce of effort outside of the 45 minutes a day you chose to sleep through at school and expect to come out fluent.

Taithí a dhéanann máistreacht!

wilkie2006 · 11-04-2012 9:14pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Why should we prop up a dying language instead of letting nature take its course?

Eh... because it's important to Irish culture?

That's one of the most ignorant post I've read in a long time. What're you views on literature and the arts? Waste of time and money?

Jesus.

Mal-Adjusted · 11-04-2012 9:16pm

Babybuff wrote: »

would never work, the way Irish is taught makes it impossible to learn and use in our daily lives. It is mostly grammar based and less constructive to fluent expression. The only way to learn it would be to hear it spoken regularly and eventually you will be able to reciprocate. you can figure out the grammar afterwards.

this is true. having a specific time of max 40 minutes a day dedicated to irish in school will never turn out a large number of irish speakers

conor.hogan.2 · 11-04-2012 9:16pm

paullyons00 wrote: »

some kind of pro-communist loo-la

That is an insult to communists and "loo-las".

The King of Moo · 11-04-2012 9:17pm

Jess16 wrote: »

Another thinly veiled teacher bashing thread :rolleyes:

Languages are learned through immersion and retained through use -not the incredibly limited number of hours permitted to teachers by the curriculum that they're supposed to work miracles with.

But hey, don't let that stop you from blaming teachers because you haven't bothered your barney to put in an ounce of effort outside of the 45 minutes a day you chose to sleep through at school and expect to come out fluent.

Taithí a dhéanann máistreacht!

True, but the teaching of a language in school should make the student interested enough to gain that experience outside of class.

I actually wouldn't blame individual teachers: like with every profession, there's good ones and bad ones. In secondary school I had one terrible teacher and one great one, and I learned a lot more under the latter.
I'd blame the curriculum they have to work in which doesn't have enough emphasis on teaching the basics in primary school and puts too much emphasis on literature too soon and too little on making the language fun (this is based on my experience and I know things might be better now, though from what I hear it's not so different).

I agree some people have a negative attitude towards the language and don't put the work in, but I think in some cases that's caused by the way it's taught and it develops into a vicious cycle.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 11-04-2012 9:20pm

Get Des Bishop to make a hip and funky comedy series about learning Irish and have it broadcast on RTE.

ejmaztec · 11-04-2012 9:21pm

cocoshovel wrote: »

Id rather emmigrate

The OP and a few other will be prattling away to each other in a small hut in the middle of the hugely expanded Gaeltacht area, and the rest will be gone laughing their way to the docks and airports.

Jess16 · 11-04-2012 9:27pm

The King of Moo wrote: »

I'd blame the curriculum they have to work in which doesn't have enough emphasis on teaching the basics in primary school and puts too much emphasis on literature too soon and too little on making the language fun (this is based on my experience and I know things might be better now, though from what I hear it's not so different)

It's entirely different. The Primary Curriculum for Irish is sub-divided into 4 realms of reading, writing, talking and listening with a games based approach for all categories. Try committing new vocabulary to a child's memory when a large number of parents refuse to even look at Irish homework with them.

Micky Dolenz · 11-04-2012 9:28pm

Jess16 wrote: »

Another thinly veiled teacher bashing thread :rolleyes:

Languages are learned through immersion and retained through use -not the incredibly limited number of hours permitted to teachers by the curriculum that they're supposed to work miracles with.

But hey, don't let that stop you from blaming teachers because you haven't bothered your barney to put in an ounce of effort outside of the 45 minutes a day you chose to sleep through at school and expect to come out fluent.

Taithí a dhéanann máistreacht!

No one mentioned teacher bashing, until you did.

Self fulfilling prophecy.

Ave Sodalis · 11-04-2012 9:31pm

I think in Primary schools, we should only learn how to speak it and that's all. No written or reading, just speaking. Then in Secondary school, start to learn to read and write it, the same way we do with English in Primary.

The way it's taught now is it's all loaded onto you at once and most people become over whelmed and hence the hatred

The King of Moo · 11-04-2012 9:35pm

Jess16 wrote: »

It's entirely different. The Primary Curriculum for Irish is sub-divided into 4 realms of reading, writing, talking and listening with a games based approach for all categories. Try committing new vocabulary to a child's memory when a large number of parents refuse to even look at Irish homework with them.

That does sound a lot better.

Hopefully it's also combined with a better emphasis on English grammar in English lessons so that pupils can relate the Irish grammar to the English equivalents.

When I did my TEFL training I realised how much more difficult it had been learning Irish and French and being introduced to certain tenses when we didn't know their English equivalents (where they existed).

I think it'll be difficult to get many parents to help kids with their extra-curricular Irish-learning when the parents themselves probably have poor Irish and no interest in it due to the old system.
Maybe something simple lick a mandatory hour or two of TG4 per week would be a good start.

Mountainlad · 11-04-2012 9:36pm

paullyons00 wrote: »

In my opinion, the only way we can possibly revive the Irish language to make it the first language of the people, business and pleasure, is as follows:

All citizens below the age of 30 and above the age of 17 have 5 years to reach an agreed level of fluency.

Each will be assessed through an oral and written exam at the end of those 5 years.

If the candidate does not pass on his/her first exam, they will be given a second chance to pass but at a higher pass mark.

Any candidate who fails the second exam should be stripped of their rights and citizenship and should face a hefty prison sentence.

This may seem autocratic or communist, but in my view its the only way we can revive the language or else it will die out in years to come.

I'd love to hear your opinions on my way of thinking and alternative views on how we should go about reviving the language.

After I read the bit in bold, I thought 'What's gonna happen when they fail this second exam? Deportation? Haha'.

Your idea was even more stupid than I imagined...

Jess16 · 11-04-2012 9:42pm

The King of Moo wrote: »

I think it'll be difficult to get many parents to help kids with their extra-curricular Irish-learning when the parents themselves probably have poor Irish and no interest in it

That's precisely the common misconception -homework is not 'extra-curricular', it's an integral final phase of the learning process. Bypass consolidation and most learning is forgotten.

The King of Moo · 11-04-2012 9:49pm

Jess16 wrote: »

That's precisely the common misconception -homework is not 'extra-curricular', it's an integral final phase of the learning process. Bypass consolidation and most learning is forgotten.

You're right, "extra-curricular" wasn't the best choice of word.

I've seen what you're talking about with teenage English-language students. I've had students from Japan who only ever spoke English in the classroom and they could reel off the different forms of any verb you threw at them, but they couldn't string a sentence together (shyness was part of that too).

I've seen the same thing to a lesser extent with Spanish and Italian students, where English is generally not taught so well and so often, compared to northern European countries where they have better English teaching and students tend to be more willing to engage with English-language culture (films, tv, music etc), partly due to having more confidence in the language from their classes, but also due to encouragement from their parents who would generally have a decent standard of English.

Unfortunately that's the problem here: it's hard to get kids speaking and listening to Irish outside of school when their parents have often grown up resenting the language and can't really speak it.

Tonyandthewhale · 11-04-2012 9:50pm

paullyons00 wrote: »

I expected to be critized harshly for my opinions on this matter.

you probably all think 'm some kind of pro-communist loo-la, I'm actually not

I just dont think their is any other way of achieving said goal.

Do you have even the remotest idea of what communism actually is?

11-04-2012 10:03pm

Israel introduced Hebrew very successfully just after WWII by making all internal government services available in only Hebrew.

wilkie2006 · 11-04-2012 10:16pm

I think that the government has a great chance of promoting the language now, in these austerity years. The Celtic Tiger's gone and there's a vacuum in terms of cultural identity. I think that if the Dept of Education consulted with a collection of sociologists and other academics, as well as marketing agencies, they could come up with a very effective programme to help make Irish relevant in people's lives. It would require some very on-the-ball and radical moves though and I'm not convinced our mandarins are very good at that.

bb1234567 · 11-04-2012 10:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Israel introduced Hebrew very successfully just after WWII by making all internal government services available in only Hebrew.

Thats exactly what we should do, every sign, poster,book,letter should be only in irish and this will force people to become fluent in the language .:)

wilkie2006 · 11-04-2012 10:29pm

Babybuff wrote: »

would never work, the way Irish is taught makes it impossible to learn and use in our daily lives. It is mostly grammar based and less constructive to fluent expression. The only way to learn it would be to hear it spoken regularly and eventually you will be able to reciprocate. you can figure out the grammar afterwards.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with teaching a language through focusing on its grammar - I learned French this way and found it very effective. The problem with how Irish is taught is the teachers. Perhaps the curriculum is structured awkwardly but none of them have ever been able to impose any structure on the Irish syllabus. It seemed like I learned the same thing every single year in school - no matter how old I was there was never any progression.

44leto · 11-04-2012 10:31pm

bb1234567 wrote: »

Thats exactly what we should do, every sign, poster,book,letter should be only in irish and this will force people to become fluent in the language .:)

What if people did not want to, what if I as an Irish citizen, born here, insisted that I would be dealt with in English.

11-04-2012 10:32pm

bb1234567 wrote: »

Thats exactly what we should do, every sign, poster,book,letter should be only in irish and this will force people to become fluent in the language .:)

Yes, but it needs a willing population as well, and judging on the responses that any thread on the subject there is a significant number who are dead set against Irish being made popular.

I see no point in blaming the education system, if the children have parents that don't care about the language and in many cases run when the Irish homework comes out.

I help the kids with Irish (I was educated in England) , the missus has completely forgotton almost all of it.

It's an attitude issue, most Irish people have the wrong attitude for Irish to flourish!

kowloon · 11-04-2012 10:39pm

Tonyandthewhale wrote: »

Do you have even the remotest idea of what communism actually is?

Isn't it that time the Russians all got together to talk about collectivisation as Gaeilge?

Run_to_da_hills · 11-04-2012 10:39pm

There is only effectively way to revive the Irish language is to ban it outright.

If the EU came up with a law prohibiting bilingual notices, government documents and speaking it in public etc you can guarantee that every one on the entire nation will want to start speaking it just for spite.

How to revive the Irish language.

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