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Arm the Gardai?

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    #32
    the locust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭the locust


    Good points, i'd argue for arming Gardai ethier with glocks or taser or whatever. Not because we live in a warzone, we dont live in South African slums or in Basra, obviously. We do have billions of euros of drugs going through our country and serious enough criminals

    I think police should be armed, because they are police. Their badge and uniform is thier authority and a weapon is a physical reminder of their power, whether they use it or not.

    Again, most cops that carry guns have never had to fire them.

    Its the psychological presence of a law enforcer carrying a weapon. Regardless if its a firearm or a less lethal weapon.

    Sounds a bit mad, but I love the impact submachine guns have on a airport - people know not to mess and people know they are safe.

    Same impact the Taser has when its drawn, (as reported by merseyside cops) - the red cross/dot has a psychological effect on someone who its pointed at, cause they know they are about to 'get tased' and back down.


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    #33
    John Kimble
    Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭John Kimble


    cp251 wrote: »
    There is still resistance to it but I think it will come. The current crop of gangsters have no qualms about shooting a Garda. Eventually a couple of Garda will be executed by one of these guys. A hitman covering his tracks or whatever. Then it will get serious. The old style criminals usually avoided shooting Garda even when chased by them. Not the new mob. The very idea of unarmed officers chasing down and armed gunman is insane.

    I don't think that's a particularly compelling argument. I haven't got exact figures to hand but as far as I know, more Gardai were killed on duty during the 1980s (about 8 I think), due to the amount of armed robberies at the time, than in the following two decades. If there wasn't sufficent reason to arm them back then, then why now?


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    #34
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Just for anyone who does not know much about ARV's or anyone who would like to know more about ARV's,may I suggest picking up this book?Great read,as JonAnderton tipped on,it has the origins of ARV's and more..
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Armed-Response-Inside-Scotland-Yards/dp/0753510499/ref=pd_bbs_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197994083&sr=1-3


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    #35
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    TheNog wrote: »
    I believe arv's are in the pipeline.

    I have heard the selection is 2 yrs minimum service and the training/selection will be on par with eru selection.

    Forgive me for sounding like an absolute Walt,but what exactly is their selection like?I mean I have read a lot about ARW selection but ERU/ARV's...


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    #36
    purple'n'gold
    Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭purple'n'gold


    the locust wrote: »
    Good points, i'd argue for arming Gardai ethier with glocks or taser or whatever. Not because we live in a warzone, we dont live in South African slums or in Basra, obviously. We do have billions of euros of drugs going through our country and serious enough criminals

    I think police should be armed, because they are police. Their badge and uniform is thier authority and a weapon is a physical reminder of their power, whether they use it or not.

    Again, most cops that carry guns have never had to fire them.

    Its the psychological presence of a law enforcer carrying a weapon. Regardless if its a firearm or a less lethal weapon.

    Sounds a bit mad, but I love the impact submachine guns have on a airport - people know not to mess and people know they are safe.

    Same impact the Taser has when its drawn, (as reported by merseyside cops) - the red cross/dot has a psychological effect on someone who its pointed at, cause they know they are about to 'get tased' and back down.

    Check out the link below and see what a Taser does in the hands of a sadistic cowboy cop.
    http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1297437,00.html


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    #37
    mox54
    Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭mox54


    there are armed Garda on the streets every day and most half intelligent crooks know this and don't bother their arses taking on certain crimes because they know armed units are available or there already, we also have plenty of arms and capability available if ever needed so I see no need to arm every Garda, this may give rise to stupid addicts having a pop and getting a bullet in the belly rather than a kick in the arse, I think the current situation is fine as is, the Garda are a very cute and well informed lot and can handle the current situation given time and resources!:cool:


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    #38
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    eroo wrote: »
    Forgive me for sounding like an absolute Walt,but what exactly is their selection like?I mean I have read a lot about ARW selection but ERU/ARV's...

    TBH I don't have the full facts on it but did hear in the college that they go on runs with 50lbs (i think) rucksacks on the backs, go on 3-4 day hikes and I did see them practice using sniper rifles on the college grounds. Now when i say practice they didn't shoot cos there is no range in the college but they seemed to be getting used to holding them properly and using the weapon sights. I tried to talk to a few of them but some just ignored me and others politely told me the **** off. They must have to keep the training secret or else they just didnt like students


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    #39
    metman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭metman


    purplengold wrote: »
    Check out the link below and see what a Taser does in the hands of a sadistic cowboy cop.

    Well at least you're keeping an open mind about the investigation :rolleyes:

    Taser records when its fired and how many times to assist any post-incident investigation into misuse or to counter any malicious allegations.


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    #40
    Spyral
    Closed Accounts Posts: 885 ✭✭✭Spyral


    gardi with guns... no thanks... air tasers would probably be better. But they would probably be over used. Like if some bellend gardai decides that he's had enough arguing with a drunk ZAAPP as opposed to old fashioned policing.


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    #41
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/other_information/corporate/so19_introduction.pdf

    Basic info on CO19 ARV's


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    #42
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    TheNog wrote: »
    TBH I don't have the full facts on it but did hear in the college that they go on runs with 50lbs (i think) rucksacks on the backs, go on 3-4 day hikes and I did see them practice using sniper rifles on the college grounds. Now when i say practice they didn't shoot cos there is no range in the college but they seemed to be getting used to holding them properly and using the weapon sights. I tried to talk to a few of them but some just ignored me and others politely told me the **** off. They must have to keep the training secret or else they just didnt like students

    ya i heard it is pretty rough alright..i missed the guys in the Tactical Training Unit by a few mins when i was down there last time(a tour,not in there yet!).they said if they were around they'd talk to me about PT but..was not to be..pity as i like my PT so they could have given some solid advice!


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    #43
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Spyral wrote: »
    gardi with guns... no thanks... air tasers would probably be better. But they would probably be over used. Like if some bellend gardai decides that he's had enough arguing with a drunk ZAAPP as opposed to old fashioned policing.

    'old fashioned policing'?suppose they try and arrest him and then he pulls a knife...what now??

    At the moment Gardai do not overuse their batons/ASP's s why do you think they would start if they got TASERS?


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    #44
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    There's a fair bit of ****e starting to creep onto this thread, posters should remind themselves that this ain't AH.


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    #45
    metman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭metman


    Some stuff on ARV training here for those who haven't caught this on Sky.


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    #46
    JonAnderton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭JonAnderton


    with regards the training. the met provide two main types of course. the full ARV and an initial AFO (what i've done). both are tough and the prinicpals are the same except the ARV's go deeper into it. the initial couse has over a 50%. I know plenty of fella's who have passed the ARV course and said it was one of the best courses they ever done.

    Anyone really interested in the area of armed police shoild read Michael (mike) Waldrons book 'armed police'. it covers the UK, mainly the Met's, use of firearms from 1945 until the present day. it goes through everything including the setting up of the ARV unit and all the problems, policies and procdures throughout that time. Waldren was himself a firearms officer and ended up head of SO19

    Roger greys book 'armed response' mentioned above is a terrific insight in ARV life. I cuurently work with a Bloke who's mentioned in the book and was one of Grey's PC's. he said he loved it but in the beginning they got a lot of flack off the powers that be...


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    #47
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    civdef wrote: »
    There's a fair bit of ****e starting to creep onto this thread, posters should remind themselves that this ain't AH.

    But I don't see anything that doesn't fit in this thread,it is all ES related and on topic..


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    #48
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    JonAnderton wrote: »
    but in the beginning they got a lot of flack off the powers that be...

    you can bet the Gardai will have all of that ahead of them!

    JonAnderton,how do you feel about being armed?Do you feel safer? or in even greater danger due to the fact that you could be frontline response to armed incidents?
    Just that if we were to arm all Gardai,every single Garda would have to realise they could be the first response to an armed robbery..

    eroo


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    #49
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Civdef has given a polite nudge to keep things as they should be.

    Please do not dispute mod directions/decisions on thread. Thank you.


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    #50
    JonAnderton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭JonAnderton


    i think any police officer or gard could be the frontline response to an armed incident.. and they usually are.

    i work in a protection department and am often out in vehicles. It's more fraustraing not being able to be assigned to a call, eg two males fighting, because of the public order aspect. It used to annoy me when a vehicle you checked out required a firearms stop and your nearest ARV was 10 minutes away.Whilst we have our own resonsabilities, we still monitor local radio channels and if something comes across that we can assist with, most of us will jump at the chance.. we didnt do the course for nothing.

    What also should be remembered is that currently, all firearms officers volunteer to carry. if you fully arm the service, theres going to be a lot of people who dont want to be armed. always better to have a volunteer than a pressed man


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    #51
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Thanks JonAnderton,nice to have someone speaking from experience w/ firearms


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    #52
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    Jon - do you get a shiny red beemer?


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    #53
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1785932,00.html

    I think this sums up the reason why not all Gardai should be armed.Thankfully,our equivalent units undergo tests to see if potential unit members can handle using firearms.Not everyone would be able to cope in a situ requiring the use of weapons,as clarly demonstrated in the US time and time again,so could you imagine arming all Gardai and they are not all able to cope..

    btw,there is a strong air of bull**** from the SAS guys,same as what the Rangers said after Abbeylara


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    #54
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    It's true, it would have to be phased in over time. Most of the Gardai on the street now signed up in the knowledge that they would not be carrying a gun. You can't just shove a pistol in their hand, show them how to shoot, and that's them sorted.


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    #55
    JonAnderton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭JonAnderton


    Jon - do you get a shiny red beemer?

    Yeah, sometimes, but it's usually a tatty old red transit...lol

    We read that article at work ages ago. Must say we've only juts stopped laughing. I love the bit about the fellas going into the bar with their MP5's and Glocks. Trust me, that DID NOT happen...lol..

    A certain amount of humour is injected into the training, it has to, but at the end of the day, it's a serious business and everyone I know at the training establishment, whether the trainers or the trainee's are the utmost professional (if they weren't they wouldn't be there). Also, with regard to the 'psycological testing'. You are constantly assed throughout the course's. You spend time on judgement ranges and through scenario based exercises. You constanyl have to explain youa ctions, what powers and policy was used, you reasons behind the action you did, or did not take and your whole attitude and behaviour. At the end of the day, these blokes (the trainers) are putting their names to the fact that they think you are suitable to carry a firearm and at the back of their minds is the fact that one day you might be covering their asses from a containment point. They don't want jokers in their pack...

    With regards to the 'no physical fitness requirment'. Trust me, the ARV course sort's the men from the boys... And the SFO teams (who these lot probably were) is much more demanding. Whilst I'm not presuming to knock the skills and talent of the boys of the 22nd Special Air Service, 19's SFO and TST teams carry out more forced house entries than the SAS do and they do it without blowing holes in walls or using fully automatic fire. The end of the day, whether its a Taliban terrorist or a Brixton Yardie. The bloke holding the Mac 10 is still the same threat. They doa lot of cross training. I'm sure if the SAS wen't happy as a whole to train with them, they could come up with some excuse to cancel it.

    Screams a bit too much like "Thats out job, we're supposed to be the ones that do that" but trust me, while there are a few twats in the department and the SFO's do love themselves a bit (well, wouldn't you) this is a load of rubbish.


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    #56
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    DaveMcG wrote: »
    It's true, it would have to be phased in over time. Most of the Gardai on the street now signed up in the knowledge that they would not be carrying a gun. You can't just shove a pistol in their hand, show them how to shoot, and that's them sorted.

    That's just what the GS did back in the late 60's and 70's. My dad was stationed in Donegal and they were semi trained in the use of revolvers. They carried them when on uniformed patrol but had to keep them in the car unless they were needed. Apparently it was common practice. I don't think that back then the Gardai had any type of specialised armed response except for DDUs.

    On a funny note my dad told me that he was sitting in the passenger seat when on patrol with a, what he called " a stupid ****ing sergeant sitting behind him". The sergeant was fairly new to the district at the time. He picked up my dads gun and started messing with till it went off and the bullet went into the back of the seat just mere inches from my dad. The car was stopped and the sergeant was pulled out the car and my dad beat the crap out of him. Nothing was ever said to him about after!!!!


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    #57
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    LOL, beating the sh*t out of a sargeant :D:D:D


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    #58
    fishdog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭fishdog


    I am a target shooter. I have had to deal with gardai many times over the years in relation to firearms. My experience is that (in general) they:

    1) Have no interest in firearms
    2) Recieve little or no training with firearms. The lack of knowlage that they have about firearms is frightening.
    3) Do not want to know anything about firearms
    4) Would hate to ever carry a firearm

    I am not trying to bash the gardai by saying this. I have never had a negitive experience with the gardai. I have always found them helpful and friendly.

    However I have to say that armed gardai that I know have very little firearms training, in my opinion they do not have enough training to be armed. I would often shoot more rounds in a week than they would in a year.

    IMHO the only gardai that sould be armed are the ones that volunteer and that are properly trained to be.


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    #59
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    I agree with you fishdog. I don't particularly like firearms probably because I have very little experience. In fairness I have come across lads with legally held firearms and would be a bit cautious around them.

    I think the current training system is an annual refresher course and they are issued with a licence to carry the particular weapon. At the moment the most common is the six shooter Smith and Wesson and the Uzi. They are a few Glocks around too but I have heard there is problems with its reliability.

    What I have noticed though is that personal issue is not worn regularly by some of the plainclothes gardai. They firearms are issued for certain jobs such as escorts. If I was trained in firearms I would at least carry it at all times when working.


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    #60
    fishdog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭fishdog


    In fairness I have come across lads with legally held firearms and would be a bit cautious around them.
    You will find them to be extremely law abiding, if they are not they will be "relieved" of their firearms by the authorities.
    At the moment the most common is the six shooter Smith and Wesson and the Uzi.

    AFAIK the dated Smith & Wesson is being phased out and replaced mainly by the Sig 226 in 9mm calibre. This particular gun is not well suited to the purpose of law enforcement in my view because it will shoot in "double action" only. This means that it is hard to shoot as accurately as a pistol that can shoot in "single action". Pistols that can do this are used by police, military, target shooters (and the bad guys!) all over the world giving them a much greater chance of hitting their intended target. Double action only pistols are considered to be safer due to the heavier trigger pull required. By issuing this type of sidearm is as though the authorities acknowledge that armed gardai are not trained enough. In my view (I have used some of these pistols) the armed gardai should have much more firearms training and they should be issued with a much more suitable firearm.

    AFAIK very few gardai (if any) carry the Uzi or train with them with the exception of specialised units like the ERU. Not being a garda myself I am open to correction on this.
    They are a few Glocks around too but I have heard there is problems with its reliability.
    They are one of the most reliable and robust pistols ever made. Reliability is only an issue when people start fiddling with them. Also very cheap and light (making them comfortable to carry) with a large magazine capacity. Personally I have shot these and I don’t like them.
    What I have noticed though is that personal issue is not worn regularly by some of the plainclothes gardai.

    That is interesting. Perhaps they do not feel happy due to a lack of training?

    I see that some of them have joined local gun clubs in my area so that they can get practice. It is alarming that they do not have the opportunity to use a garda range as much as they want. I am told that some armed gardai shoot less than 50 rounds a year! I believe there is a serious lack of garda shooting ranges.

    I do not think that arming all gardai is for the best at present (I hope this will always be the case), but more far more training for the gardai that are armed at present is essential.


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    #61
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    AFAIK very few gardai (if any) carry the Uzi or train with them with the exception of specialised units like the ERU. Not being a garda myself I am open to correction on this

    Local DDU's also have Uzi's.IMO,S & W pistols and Uzi's should be gotten rid of..The P226 is much better than the 6 shot pieces of ****e that are out dated by about 15 years.Uzi's should also be replaced(they are with SDU/ERU)as they are ancient imo.

    The Gardai that are armed need better training(except specialist units who I would imagine get sufficient training) and better weapons.

    Btw,the P226's are used by the Rangers,so they must be reliable.USP's are now being used by Defence Forces and from what I have heard they are quite good


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