Arm the Gardai?

Dave! · 17-12-2007 2:40pm #1

Hey folks,

this topic has been cropping up quite alot lately, with the increase in gang activity and murders.

Wouldn't mind getting the opinion of the people on the front line, so to speak!

Gardai - do ye WANT to be armed? what about your fellow Gardai, have they indicated that they want to be armed, or would they prefer the rank and file to be unarmed?

Other police - same questions if ye are not armed

If ye are (I think the PSNI are), does it make you feel safer? Ever had to use it?

Should be interesting to hear what ye have to say.

Fellow civvies, feel free to chip in with your opinion

Dr Strange · 17-12-2007 3:50pm

Well, coming from a country where police is armed I would say yes, they should be armed nowadays. I found it quite interesting to see that the Gardai have to face a sawn-off shotgun during a robbery with their night-stick.

However, I do believe this can only be done if there is disciplined and committed firearms training. I have been over here quite some years now and came across cases were a Garda got killed/injured by another Garda's firearm.

Regular firearms training should be a must if the Gardai are to be armed. Strict conduct and adherence to safety rules etc. Maybe start with building a purpose-built firearms range for the Gardai first though.

kaimera · 17-12-2007 3:54pm

Heh, actually had this conversation with some friends over the weekend.

Only problem is that it was after a night out so I honestly couldn't tell you what the consensus was

Dave! · 17-12-2007 4:00pm

Ahh boo-urns kaimera :mad: If those thoughts become a bit clearer, feel free to post them

metman · 17-12-2007 4:06pm

Next year I'm moving to a unit that has an armed capability, so yes I wish to work armed. However I don't think routine arming of the Gardai or the Police here is necessary as yet, besides we all know people we wouldn't trust with a sharpened pencil let alone a Glock or MP5.

While I have come across firearms on duty I have never felt that I need a firearm to do my job as a response officer. On the other hand, routine arming with taser would be ideal. On occasion I, like most officers, have struggled with very violent suspects off their faces on crack/alcohol/other/all of the above, that have proven all but impervious to pain compliance techniques...where you wind up bundling on a load of old bill and trussing the suspect up like a turkey with cuffs and leg restraints. Last time round, I got kicked in the head, my colleague got headbutted and another had his nose broken as we tried to get the slag into the van, all the while the suspect spat mouthfuls of his own blood (he'd been bottled in a club after being racially abusive) at us as a crowd gathered and started shouting "police brutality"! Taser would sort this kind of individual out sharpish giving officers the chance to gain compliance quickly and effectively.

Time Magazine · 17-12-2007 4:09pm

Enough Gardaí are armed.

cold_filter · 17-12-2007 4:12pm

metman wrote: »

Next year I'm moving to a unit that has an armed capability, so yes I wish to work armed. However I don't think routine arming of the Gardai or the Police here is necessary as yet, besides we all know people we wouldn't trust with a sharpened pencil let alone a Glock or MP5.

While I have come across firearms on duty I have never felt that I need a firearm to do my job as a response officer. On the other hand, routine arming with taser would be ideal. On occasion I, like most officers, have struggled with very violent suspects off their faces on crack/alcohol/other/all of the above, that have proven all but impervious to pain compliance techniques...where you wind up bundling on a load of old bill and trussing the suspect up like a turkey with cuffs and leg restraints. Last time round, I got kicked in the head, my colleague got headbutted and another had his nose broken as we tried to get the slag into the van, all the while the suspect spat mouthfuls of his own blood (he'd been bottled in a club after being racially abusive) at us as a crowd gathered and started shouting "police brutality"! Taser would sort this kind of individual out sharpish giving officers the chance to gain compliance quickly and effectively.

As a joe soap, i think gardai should have tasers.

timmywex · 17-12-2007 5:36pm

an interesting idea here thanks to the garda inspectorate;

Under the plan members of the second
tier armed response unit would be
established regionally and would be
issued with specially customised patrol
vehicles which would carry arms
in secure locked strongboxes. The
members would patrol normally and
carry out standard garda duties in
standard uniform. On being called
to an incident the members would
change into a uniform similar to that
of the ERU and proceed to the scene
where they would provide an armed
resource for the on-scene commander.

cp251 · 17-12-2007 6:58pm

There is still resistance to it but I think it will come. The current crop of gangsters have no qualms about shooting a Garda. Eventually a couple of Garda will be executed by one of these guys. A hitman covering his tracks or whatever. Then it will get serious. The old style criminals usually avoided shooting Garda even when chased by them. Not the new mob. The very idea of unarmed officers chasing down and armed gunman is insane.

There is a considerable mystique about guns in the this country. Look, they are nothing more than tools to be used as neccessary. The Commisioner said that he wanted to keep the good relationship the Gardai have with the public at large so he was against arming them. I'm not sure how the sight of a gun impacts the publics perception. It doesn't anywhere in the rest of Europe. Besides with the new uniforms and equipment, sometimes there is a decidedly paramilitary look about the Garda. Everything but the gun.

ex_infantry man · 17-12-2007 7:58pm

coming from military backround i must say yes and agree that the gardai should have some form of extra protection i.e.tazer or handguns as todays criminals are better armed than even the army don,t know about the training but there better armed anyway and the gardai are at greater risk nowadays of getting shot at in there line of work than 20 or 30 years ago

Dave! · 17-12-2007 8:01pm

timmywex wrote: »

an interesting idea here thanks to the garda inspectorate;

Under the plan members of the second
tier armed response unit would be
established regionally and would be
issued with specially customised patrol
vehicles which would carry arms
in secure locked strongboxes. The
members would patrol normally and
carry out standard garda duties in
standard uniform. On being called
to an incident the members would
change into a uniform similar to that
of the ERU and proceed to the scene
where they would provide an armed
resource for the on-scene commander.

I don't see much merit in that suggestion TBH... I thought the idea of arming them was to protect the Gardaí against things like what happened recently, where a Garda on a motorbike stopped a car only to be shot from point blank range with a sawn off shotgun. Wouldn't be much point in having a gun in a secure box in that circumstance!

steveland? · 17-12-2007 8:15pm

As a member of the public myself I'd agree that Gardai should be armed in principal.

I was held up at gunpoint once and it wasn't a fun experience. The Gardai eventually caught the guy and it turned out to be a fake gun (a proper replica now, not a toy... I'm not that stupid

). I know I'd feel safer (in principal) if the Gardai were equally armed as the pricks that go around shooting and maiming people.

However, I'd think there'd need to be some serious psychological vetting of each Garda before they get a gun. I mean no offense here and have great respect for the Gardai but the few bad apples around, the nutters you find in every line of work, could make any plan to arm the Gardai very messy.

I also don't agree with the traffic corps and certain other branches being armed. I know the case of the guy pulling over the car and getting shot point blank shows that everyone's in the line of fire but I don't see it being necessary to arm every Gard as a matter of course.

If everyone who could potentially be shot at was carrying a gun for defence then all of us would have a gloc down our cacks and we'd turn into the gun totin' USA fairly quickly

eroo · 17-12-2007 10:11pm

personally,i think the solution lies w/ ARV's(Armed Response Vehicles).Down here in Limerick the Gardai have FINALLY gotten a full-time armed response unit(http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-armed-garda-squad-to-take-on-city-gang--bosses-1085425.html)
and there is plans to have ARV's in every district;http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-garda-swat-squads-to-combat-gang-crime-1166272.html
I always believed that ARV's were absolutely essential as they would act as a deterent and as a preventitive measure.I live beside Limerick City and its only when things got bad that they used to bring down the ERU...a reactive measure!
It was obvious that the ERU/SDU could not act as armed patrol units in every flashpoint in the country simply because they do not have manpower and these units are not designed for that.So ARV's,IMO, would allow Gardai in districts outside of Dublin feel much safer as they know that if needed,they can get back-up off of SPECIALIST armed units and not the local DDU who are swamped w/ work as it is..
In Dublin you have SDU,ERU,NBCI/OCU and NSU as well as countless DDU's to back you up if necessary.Whereas in cities like Cork and Limerick,specially trained firearms teams are hard to get...well until recently for Limerick.
Basically,if we operate a system similiar to CO19 in London in each City/District then there is no need to arm uniform Gardai as they would have sufficient armed back-up if needed...
Well,thats just my 2cents on it!

BTW,metman and JonAnderton,how do ye feel about ARV's?i.e. are they sufficient back-up,do you feel safer knowing they are only a few mins away at any given time,and have you ever had to call on them?

eroo

eroo · 17-12-2007 10:14pm

oh yes,slightly off-topic but,am i the only one who thinks Limerick should get a permanent Garda Heli??This could also cover Cork..

timmywex · 17-12-2007 10:16pm

eroo wrote: »

and there is plans to have ARV's in every district;http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-garda-swat-squads-to-combat-gang-crime-1166272.html
I always believed that ARV's were absolutely essential as they would act as a deterent and as a preventitive measure.I live beside Limerick City and its only when things got bad that they used to bring down the ERU...a reactive measure!

eroo

thats the article i was looking for re my post above, i like the idea personally, but think it should be every county eventually, it can take a while to getaround some areas, but it could nearly be sorted when these new divisons come in.

eroo · 17-12-2007 10:36pm

Well,the only problem w/ having units in every county is that it could be a waste...For example look at Co.Roscommon or Co.Kerry.These counties are mainly rural so the units would have to cover a vast area where there is,most of the time,little or no armed crime.The ERU are designed to deploy to these areas for op's but there is never any need for them to be deployed to 'saturate' a flashpoint simply because flashpoints do not exist in these 2 example counties.There may be high levels of crime in certain towns but nothing local units w/ local DDU shouldn't be able to handle.
I mean,if you are part of a 3 man team in an ARV tasked with patrolling Tralee I would imagine you would;either get bored fairly quickly and realise you will be lucky to get 2 or 3 call outs A YEAR;OR carry out mainly uniform unit activities..

timmywex · 17-12-2007 10:46pm

eroo wrote: »

Well,the only problem w/ having units in every county is that it could be a waste...For example look at Co.Roscommon or Co.Kerry.These counties are mainly rural so the units would have to cover a vast area where there is,most of the time,little or no armed crime.The ERU are designed to deploy to these areas for op's but there is never any need for them to be deployed to 'saturate' a flashpoint simply because flashpoints do not exist in these 2 example counties.There may be high levels of crime in certain towns but nothing local units w/ local DDU shouldn't be able to handle.
I mean,if you are part of a 3 man team in an ARV tasked with patrolling Tralee I would imagine you would;either get bored fairly quickly and realise you will be lucky to get 2 or 3 call outs A YEAR;OR carry out mainly uniform unit activities..

yeh, good point actualy, didnt think of them counties!

CLADA · 17-12-2007 10:51pm

eroo wrote: »

personally,i think the solution lies w/ ARV's(Armed Response Vehicles).Down here in Limerick the Gardai have FINALLY gotten a full-time armed response unit(http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-armed-garda-squad-to-take-on-city-gang--bosses-1085425.html)
and there is plans to have ARV's in every district;http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-garda-swat-squads-to-combat-gang-crime-1166272.html

Hello eroo, just to let you know article number 2 is pretty much what Timmywex posted earlier. These are kathleen O Tooles recommendations as contained in the Garda Inspectorates report.
It is envisaged that a dedicated armed response team will operate in each Garda region.

When you consider selection of personnel, training etc... it will be well into next year before any of these units are up and running and that includes the Limerick unit.

I'm sure Ms O Toole will be amused to read how the idea for an armed response team came from Limerick citys regeneration committee.

eroo · 17-12-2007 10:59pm

Hi CLADA,what do you think of ARV's??

Remmy · 17-12-2007 10:59pm

I think this arv idea would be very good!

Is it in the pipeline to happen or just an idea?

Anyone wonder what the selection process will be like as far as joining up once your in the uniformed ranks?Also are they set to mirror the ERU as far as equipment and tactics?

eroo · 17-12-2007 11:05pm

I think they are going to be 'pilot projects' first...

Well,they would have same firearms training and vehicle training as ERU but their tactics would probably be no where near as specialised..but I could be wrong

CLADA · 17-12-2007 11:06pm

eroo wrote: »

Hi CLADA,what do you think of ARV's??

I think they are long overdue.

However I'm not sure about having to change into the superman gear and unlocking the safe if they get a call.:rolleyes:

civdef · 17-12-2007 11:24pm

There's also the issue that ARV's are rarely on scene when they're at their most needed, as the (separate) cases of PC's Ian Broadhhurst and Sharon Beshenivsky in West Yorkshire showed in recent years.

CLADA · 18-12-2007 12:07am

civdef wrote: »

There's also the issue that ARV's are rarely on scene when they're at their most needed, as the (separate) cases of PC's Ian Broadhhurst and Sharon Beshenivsky in West Yorkshire showed in recent years.

mmmmmm We shall have to look into the omnipresent tactic:D

the locust · 18-12-2007 12:11am

Im for arming the Gardai rank and file. We need to get with the rest of europe, the world, is becoming a worse place.

At present we have armed Gardai but no one can see them cause there in plain clothes, i think this has more disadvantages than advantages.

We need them rank and file as a visual deterant, like in the North. Most countries (exclude the US cause they are nuts) that have armed uniformed police rarely have to use them (most of EU).

It would improve the authority and respect of the individual Guard big time as well as reducing organised crime level

TheNog · 18-12-2007 12:46am

Remmy wrote: »

I think this arv idea would be very good!

Is it in the pipeline to happen or just an idea?

Anyone wonder what the selection process will be like as far as joining up once your in the uniformed ranks?Also are they set to mirror the ERU as far as equipment and tactics?

I believe arv's are in the pipeline.

I have heard the selection is 2 yrs minimum service and the training/selection will be on par with eru selection.

TheNog · 18-12-2007 12:52am

timmywex wrote: »

an interesting idea here thanks to the garda inspectorate;

Under the plan members of the second
tier armed response unit would be
established regionally and would be
issued with specially customised patrol
vehicles which would carry arms
in secure locked strongboxes. The
members would patrol normally and
carry out standard garda duties in
standard uniform. On being called
to an incident the members would
change into a uniform similar to that
of the ERU and proceed to the scene
where they would provide an armed
resource for the on-scene commander.

does anyone else think the arv would be used in hostage situations only?

The key here is the number of arv members in each division. It is no good to have say 2 arv members patrol new division Meath. Six armed members would be sufficient 24hrs a day.

Black Swan · 18-12-2007 1:12am

Why do people think that guns are the solution to fighting crime? If guns are the solution, let's give the gardai a huge tactical advantage over the bad guys? How about giving them sub and heavy machine guns, RPG's, T-70 tanks, howitzers, and flight cover with armed helos and fighter jets? If any innocent bystanders get caught in the spray of bullets or blasts, no problem. The news media dehumanizes innocent victims by labeling them collateral damage.

Orrrrrrrr... as an alternative, we could consider several non-gun solutions to fighting crime? Community policing might be a start, where gardai are increasely integrated within our communities? Neighborhood education and watch, were citizens start taking responsibility for their communities? Better clearing of immigrants to Ireland in terms of background checks? Offering rewards and incentives to citizens to buy and reduce the number of guns on the street? Providing better pay, benefits, and training to gardai, so that it becomes a profession that competes better with other occupations in public and private sector?

JonAnderton · 18-12-2007 1:31am

Thats sounds very similar to how our ARV's started out.

Back in the day, the model 10's would be carried unloaded in the safe along with two MP5's. There were three authority levels:

Trojan Alpha: Go to the scene and assess
Trojan Delta: Prepare to deploy firearms

Both needed the authority of a Commander or controller of the Incident Room.

Officers were allowed to self arm if they came across something direct.

I know of one story where the on call comander would not give permission to the ARV unit to tool up when chasing an armed suspect because on a previous occasion when he was on call the ARV had self armed without his permission.

over the years, the ARV's evolved with the handguns being stored loaded and made ready, then being overtly carried. Nowadays, although permission is technically still required to initiate a firearms incident, trojan allways deploy with 'appropriate' means.

I work in an armed unit and although we don't repsond to the run of the mill calls, we have our own responsibilities and are always getting flagged down by people in the street to deal with one thing or another, so often do deal with routine police work. Most of the time, the public have no idea they are dealing with an armed officer unless it's pointed out to them.

It was drilled into us from the beginning to be aware that we've got a firearm. They don't like mixing firearms and public order so we don't get called to any fights or the like unless it's an urgent assistance. You've also got to remember that armed officers are still a bit of a novelty so people tend to watch you a bit more and be more curious about what you're doing.

I don't think that the answer is to blanket arm everbody with firearms, it would change the way we (and I include the gards throughout this post) would Police.
I think an increase in the Garda's armed capability and possibly the arming of Garda vehicles with the crews firearms trained (at least to a level to do an initial containment).

As mentioned, numbers is an important factor as well. Without going into too much detail, although you only need two poeple to put in a containment, you'd need at least two crews to be most efficient. Also, as a side note. PSNI , while routinly armed, are only begining to start proper ARV style training. There's a difference between being a normal offcier who happens to be armed, and being in an ARV or protection role.

Tasers would be more benifical to the gard on the beat

metman · 18-12-2007 2:34pm

eroo wrote: »

Basically,if we operate a system similiar to CO19 in London in each City/District then there is no need to arm uniform Gardai as they would have sufficient armed back-up if needed...
Well,thats just my 2cents on it!

BTW,metman and JonAnderton,how do ye feel about ARV's?i.e. are they sufficient back-up,do you feel safer knowing they are only a few mins away at any given time,and have you ever had to call on them?

eroo

I have been involved in a number of firearms jobs over the years and have see ARV crews do their thing. They're a professional outfit and generally scare the **** out of the villains on the receiving end. In London armed back up is never far away and imo the system in place works well. The standard of training for the crews is high as is their competence, whereas were we to routinely arm officers it would be difficult to achieve and maintain such high standards across the board....some coppers I know struggle to pass the basic fitness test, let alone a firearms one :rolleyes:

I think adopting the ARV model would suit the Garda as well. Have units based regionally with decent motors, out patrolling or training. For those that want to see their tax euro at work; the county constabulary model of dual role ARV/Traffic vehicle would also work. These officers function as traffic officers with the additonal function or arv if required. This makes sense as traffic generally don't attend local calls, have good motors, are advanced drivers and have access to anpr on board cameras etc.

Mutz · 18-12-2007 4:09pm

I strongly disagree with the armament of uniform Gardai with pistols. Its not that bad in ireland (or dublin) yet. Fair enough there's been a few bad incidents in the recent months, but thank god no deaths.

I could say most uniform Guards wouldn't want one. As I've said before its a massive ordeal when you draw and use your baton - Imagine discharging a firearm! You'd be writing paper for years to come and would probably be prosecuted by the Ombudsman!

It sounds like that poor traffic guard who got shot in the North Inner City wouldn't even have had the time to draw a gun, had he been issued with one.

Armed response units is the way to go. At least put an armed element that will always compliment the District regular uniform units (24 hour/7Days - always and no exceptions).

Armed assistance is usually short on the ground and its always when they're not around the **** hits the fan in a big way.

Arm the Gardai?

Should the Gardai be armed? 179 votes

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