Metro North open days

Winters · 04-04-2006 4:48pm

Regarding the matter of the Tara - Trinity interchange I would go even one step further and examine the removal of the Trinity stop altogether from the metro north plan. As well as a cost cutting measure it would also allow the alignment to take a more direct and shorter route to the Green. The route from O'Connell Street to St. Stephen's Green is, after all, going to be served by the Luas Green line.

This would only be in the case where there is no interchange at Drumcondra or Glasnevin. I would favour the Drumcondra option because it offers a better chance of integration and because Phibsborogh will be served by Luas and Glasnevin could be served by the hybrid West - Central line option.

mackerski · 04-04-2006 5:03pm

Winters wrote:

Regarding the matter of the Tara - Trinity interchange I would go even one step further and examine the removal of the Trinity stop altogether from the metro north plan.

I'd consider that an acceptable trade for a non-city-centre interchange - location u****ortant - with the Maynooth line(s). But only if the O'Connell St. stop were moved far enough south to interchange with Luas at Abbey St.

Dermot

(Edit: why would "u****ortant" be censored by the board software

Look, it did it again. Folks, the unprintable word I was trying to use has the same meaning as "not important". Pardon my rudeness)

Winters · 04-04-2006 5:10pm

Yeah Id go along with that. The current planning is that if the metro north station stays where it is (Outside the Gresham) then there shall be another Luas Green line stop on top of it. I would perfer a spot outside Easons to integrate with the red line at Abbey but I cant actually see the RPA moving from Gresham.

This all depends whether O'Connell Street or Marlborough Street is chosen for Luas Green line but O'Connell Street is currently the frontrunner.

For all the people advocating the construction of an underground travelator from Tara Street to metro north (no matter which route is chosen) and in the consideration that an interchange is built with the Maynooth line I would ask them to question what type of trips this would serve.

To understand why certain posters dont see the need for Tara Street one has to look far beyond today and foresee Dublin in 2015 and beyond.

murphaph · 04-04-2006 6:30pm

The RPA told me quite clearly that they are actively looking at ditching Trinity and moving O'Connell south to Abbey St to save money on a full station and also provide proper (real) integration with Red Line Luas, the Gresham is as integrated with Red Line Luas as Trinity Metro station would be with Tara (metrobest-that one's for youpal, I still remember you claiming it was integrated as a 300m walk so what's good for the goose and all that!

)

Anyway, I favour the RPA's proposal to drop Trinity from the equation. Us Dubs are well used to walking from O'Connell St to Stephen's Green so a stop at both means you only have to walk half as far at worst! The Red Line will run on to the densest housing developments in the city (north docklands) so providing efficient airport connections is important to this area as well as all the finance houses down there.

As for buses continuing to an lar post T21, yeah of course that will be the case but post T21 is where we need to be looking, the next phase of metro out to Tallaght undr Terenure/Kimmage etc. and Luas extensions on the southside and on to Finglas on the northside. In this environment we can imagine the majority of bus trips being orbital rather than radial to feed into these new lines. Even in the immediate aftermath of T21 you should see a massive reduction in buses having to run into an lar from places like Maynooth/Celbridge/Rathcoole/Tallaght/Clondalkin/Lucan/Blanchardstown/Finglas/Ballymun/Santry/Swords and others. All these buses can be employed much more efficiently in lower traffic areas in the suburbs where it's easier to widen roads and add bus priority measures than in a confined city centre.

Buses will always be absolutely essential to Dublin, but they should work smarter when the capacity is created in the rail network. DTA, how are ya??

aliveandkicking · 04-04-2006 8:06pm

murphaph wrote:

The RPA told me quite clearly that they are actively looking at ditching Trinity and moving O'Connell south to Abbey St to save money on a full station and also provide proper (real) integration with Red Line Luas

They told me that too, they said "if we had a proper interchange with the Maynooth line at either Drumcondra or Prospect or Mountjoy there is no need for an interchange at Tara." Also he told me that the hybrid east/central route is the one that is most likely to actually get built as it provides a wonderful interchange with the Maynooth line at Drumcondra.

Have to say I was very impressed by the RPA, they are now an organisation with sensible visionary plans which previously was not the case. They have certainly got their act together in the last 6 months or so.

Metrobest · 05-04-2006 2:11am

I'm curious about the Drumcondra interchange, as there hasn't been much talk about that before now I didn't really think it was in the picture. Where exactly would the station be dug? Its exits? Let's hope this wasn't one of Bertie's ideas or McDowell will kill it pronto

If the hybrid east/central route gets built that indicates to me that Hawkins Street is the location for the Trinity Station - thereby making the Tara interchange ever-more viable, attractive, and essential.

How often I stood at Upper O'Connell Street wishing there was a metro to whisk me to College Green or Stephen's Green, like there would be in any other European capital city. It would be a big mistake for the metro to bypass College Green, a key station for accessing Temple Bar and its "culture" and nightlife, not to mention Trinity College with its major tourist attractions, 15,264 registered students and 2,676 staff, for the vast majority of whom driving is not an option.

Yes Philip, buses should work smarter after T21, but Dublin Bus's network review is the biggest piece of window dressing I've ever seen. The media presented it as a wonderful thesis on 21st century bus transport. Did they actually read it or just soak up the spin from the press office?

The fact is, buses will continue to traverse College Green, no new city termini are being examined even though Stephen's Green and Parnell Square, each with metro stations, would be ideal. Also, the review thinks that buses needs FIVE MINUTES to load at city centre termini. Have they ever been outside Dublin? :rolleyes:

If the Indo were interested in serious journalism they would be unpicking the Dublin Bus Network Review and highlighting why Dublin Bus is in its current state. One thing they might look at is why Dublin Bus, almost uniquely among bus operators in Europe, does not have new timetable every six months but instead makes ad hoc changes advertised in national newspapers like the Indo. But why forgoe all that advertising revenue when it's far easier to take ill-informed pot shots at luas and bleat about Dublin Bus "needing" more buses and subsidies.

Transport21 Fan · 05-04-2006 2:52am

aliveandkicking wrote:

Have to say I was very impressed by the RPA, they are now an organisation with sensible visionary plans which previously was not the case. They have certainly got their act together in the last 6 months or so.

I feel the same way too and have done so for a couple on months now. I think we should all get behind them and support this Metro North hybrid option. I can find no fault with it at all.

dowlingm · 05-04-2006 3:34am

Metrobest

Given the stag culture that infested Temple Bar when last I visited, I'm not sure it's wise to encourage them to use metro...

Metrobest · 05-04-2006 4:28am

That's why I put "culture" in inverted commas

But let's not be too snobby. The fact is, TB is a huge destionation teeming with life day and night and it needs and deserves a metro station close by!

Winters · 05-04-2006 9:31am

If a station box were to be built at Drumcondra is would be 100m x 20m approx and it would be situated either north or south of the railway bridge in the centre of the road.

There are a lot of knock on effects that come with integrating with the Maynooth line according to the RPA. Direct integration would allow for the removal of the Tara Street link up which in turn would allow for a more direct alignment to St. Stephen's Green. This would in turn allow the relocation of the O'Connell Street stop to beside the red line and thus dropping the Trinity stop.

Remember that the Luas link up will have stops on Dawson Street, Westmoreland Street and possibly two on O'Connell Street thus filling in any gaps along the way. The benefits of these editions are faster journey times, better integration, shorter tunnelling, faster construction times, simplified station design and cost cutting etc.

I just hope it wasnt all RPA open-day speal cos thats obviously the best way to go.

Since metro north will be the highest capacity line in the city it has to take the most profitable route aswell as the most cost effective. This route is it.

murphaph · 05-04-2006 10:08am

Metrobest wrote:

If the hybrid east/central route gets built that indicates to me that Hawkins Street is the location for the Trinity Station - thereby making the Tara interchange ever-more viable, attractive, and essential.

Now, I have to say it again metrobest-you are deducing things from afar that simply aren't true. Having spoken to the RPA, what you have said above is not on the cards at all. As winters has said, interchanging properly at Drumcondra allows the RPA to drop Tara and straighten up the route, allowing a station under Abbey St/O'Connell St (Red Line Luas) and then this station will be so close as makes no difference to Trinity that Trinity will almost have to be dropped.

Metrobest wrote:

Yes Philip, buses should work smarter after T21, but Dublin Bus's network review is the biggest piece of window dressing I've ever seen. The media presented it as a wonderful thesis on 21st century bus transport. Did they actually read it or just soak up the spin from the press office?

To be honest the network review is only for the coming 5 years and makes it clear that no major changes to radial bus routes can take place (apart from runing cross city) until such time as the capacity is added to the rail network. Under T21 this capacity won't be seen until the backe end of the ten year envelope. Another comprehensive review will be needed ten. You're right though-they should review their timetable on the 12th of December every year like the trains do.

MicraBoy · 05-04-2006 11:17am

I have to say Metrobest isn't convincing me of the need for a Tara St interchange. The Green Line extension gives what he is asking for in terms of the College Green/Trinity/Temple Bar argument.

As a matter of interest does any one know which of the Green Extension lines is most likely?

Integration of Metro and both Luas lines at O'Connell street is critical to making this work. I'd like to see the Hawkins St bridge being built and a stop on the north side of this, with links underground to exits at O'Connell St and Abbey St/Marlborough St. Hell why not build the travelator under the river to Tara St.

MarkoP11 · 05-04-2006 1:31pm

There has been a significant change in attitude from the RPA in the past 3 months or so, I have met various RPA people on 3 occasions since, they talk the talk but will they actually do the job

Communication is still poor, letters still don't get answers as before, the website is dire is poorly written and has no serious content, no nice glossy pdf brochure (IE and the DTO have)

The main issue with the Metro North consultation is the RPA have a route in mind, quite a clear plan but its nowhere to be seen in the flyers, on the website or at the open days. End of the day the best option is being hidden shouldn't the best options be on paper now be on show

The Luas is going via College Green its down to two options either O'Connell Street (likely) or Hawkins Street (unlikely)

I'm happy to side with no Tara Street and avoiding the need for a stop in College Green area in favour of a Metro stop between Abbey Street and the GPO which is where the station for the city centre link up will be

murphaph · 05-04-2006 5:20pm

To be fair Mark, the public consultation documentation (including the press advertisements) make it clear that hybrids of all three rout options are possible. They do have fold out pamphlet thingies at the open days. I got one anyway.

I'll et my hat if the Luas doesn't run round Trinity College up Westmoreland St and straight across nd up O'Connell St to get to Broadstone. I think this route would have been great if the metro had taken a more westerly alignment but that's not gonn happen now and I haven't decided if it's still a good idea to route the trams that way. I think we sould look well beyond T21 and remember that we'll be adding to Luas and metro for decades so a central spine along the busiest part of town isn't necessarilly a bad thing tbh.

Zebra3 · 05-04-2006 7:36pm

Was at the open day today in the Regency.

Was talking to this woman with an English accent from the RPA.

She said the central route was their preferred option and the west option is the most expensive (due to tunnelling under the airport).

My main concern is where it crosses the Maynooth line and the west option suits best as the other two options cross the Maynooth line after it's gonna be split in two. Put that down on my comment card along with moving the O'Connell St stop south towards the Tallaght Luas line.

I asked about intersecting the Maynooth line and about a new station being built on it and was simply told 'there would be pressure on IE to build a station there'.

Was also told about how much better the more easternly airport stop was as it would better serve the workers as opposed to the tourists.

There was a few old biddys there who were very,very concerned (understandably enough) about the elevated parts of it close to their houses and 'never seeing the sun rise again'.

Victor · 05-04-2006 8:37pm

Metrobest wrote:

I'd settle for a watered-down version of what I'm suggesting - one travelator linking Tara and Trinity.

How about one each way?

Metrobest · 06-04-2006 2:07am

murphaph wrote:

Now, I have to say it again metrobest-you are deducing things from afar that simply aren't true. Having spoken to the RPA, what you have said above is not on the cards at all. As winters has said, interchanging properly at Drumcondra allows the RPA to drop Tara and straighten up the route, allowing a station under Abbey St/O'Connell St (Red Line Luas) and then this station will be so close as makes no difference to Trinity that Trinity will almost have to be dropped.
.

O'Reilly metro report wrote:

.Where will morning peak-hour passengers come from?

Passengers boarding Metro
Dublin Airport to Stephen’s Green
Per Hour
Dublin Airport 1155
Metropark 672
Ballymun – North 467
Ballymun – Central 190
Dublin City University 485
Botanic Road 420
Mater 61
O’Connell Street 324
Trinity 905

Just to point out two things:
(1) the luas link-up will not an effective substitute for a metro station at Trinity - why? well, firstly, the capacity cannot match that of the metro; secondly, the (lack of) speed will render it ineffective. There are at least nine sets of traffic lights between Stephen's Green and Abbey Street. We all know how slow the luas is between Heuston and Connolly: Marko frequently points out that the bus is faster. The luas link-up is primarily focused on existing luas passengers so that they can finish their journey by tram, in other words that somebody who currently gets off the tram at Stephen's Green will stay on board till Trinity or O'Connell because that's their end destination. It's not to be seen as a substitute for a metro.

What will happen if Trinity is dropped is that the metro will simply carry less passengers. The river in Dublin is a physical divide splitting the city into two seperate hubs and the distance between O'Connell Street will not incentivise people to walk - they shouldn't have to wait interminably at pedestrian crossing after crossing, battle through narrow footpaths, wade through Grafton Street, stressing themselves out. A metro stop at College Green, one of the most important civic locations in Ireland, cannot be dropped.

Victor · 06-04-2006 2:22am

Currently, the river is not the divide, TCD and Temple Bar are the real divide as they are impenetrable to wheeled traffic.

steve-o · 06-04-2006 8:05am

Zebra3 wrote:

Was also told about how much better the more easternly airport stop was as it would better serve the workers as opposed to the tourists.

LOL... which workers? There must be a lot of people working in the Great Southern hotel.

Winters · 06-04-2006 9:15am

I could argue that the O'Reilly Metro Report is somewhat out of date considering the changes to the format recently.

The patronage stats do indeed speak volumes but the RPA are designing the system with 750/1000m (ie. 15 minute walking distance) catchments and there are a few points that must be understood.

The O'Connell Street stop is located opposite the Gresham and the Trinity Stop is located opposite the Gas building on D'Olier Street. If there was to be a combined station it would be located opposite Easons/Penneys on O'Connell Street.

The O'Reilly report stats did not consider the Luas link up, the Green line extension to South Finglas or the metro north extension to Swords. The RPA have indicated that they are confident that a more centrally located O'Connell Street would encompass both the original O'Connell Street and Trinity catchments. Combining the two stops is not going to lose any passengers.

The Trinity to Tara travelator came about from a brief from a misinformed Seamus Brennan at a time when the respective agencys had no idea what plans were going to get the go-ahead and when. T21 changed that.

Correct me on this but from what I remember the anticipated journey time from St. Stephen's Green to O'Connell Street on street will be 5 minutes and all the trams will have priority at the traffic signals. I would presume it would be quicker than 5 mins tho.

Zebra3 · 06-04-2006 9:29am

steve-o wrote:

LOL... which workers? There must be a lot of people working in the Great Southern hotel.

I think there's a lot of airport staff working in that general area, and it's also gonna be quite close to where the new terminal is to be built (so I was told by the RPA).

Also, it seems to be the case of putting it there or building it under the existing terminal (which involves tunnelling) which means they'd have to make cutbacks elsewhere.

murphaph · 06-04-2006 2:34pm

Metrobest wrote:

Just to point out two things:
(1) the luas link-up will not an effective substitute for a metro station at Trinity - why? well, firstly, the capacity cannot match that of the metro; secondly, the (lack of) speed will render it ineffective. There are at least nine sets of traffic lights between Stephen's Green and Abbey Street. We all know how slow the luas is between Heuston and Connolly: Marko frequently points out that the bus is faster. The luas link-up is primarily focused on existing luas passengers so that they can finish their journey by tram, in other words that somebody who currently gets off the tram at Stephen's Green will stay on board till Trinity or O'Connell because that's their end destination. It's not to be seen as a substitute for a metro.

Winters has said all I'd say about the above points.

Metrobest wrote:

What will happen if Trinity is dropped is that the metro will simply carry less passengers. The river in Dublin is a physical divide splitting the city into two seperate hubs and the distance between O'Connell Street will not incentivise people to walk - they shouldn't have to wait interminably at pedestrian crossing after crossing, battle through narrow footpaths, wade through Grafton Street, stressing themselves out. A metro stop at College Green, one of the most important civic locations in Ireland, cannot be dropped.

According to DCC's master plan, the entire axis from Parnnell square to Stephen's Green via Westmoreland St and College Green is to see private vehicles removed and pedestrians given free reign. The inner orbital was stage 1 of this. And anybody who gets stressed out on Grafton St needs medication!

MicraBoy · 06-04-2006 3:40pm

Trinity 905

905 people an hour are going to get on at Trinity to go to Stephen's Green

Metrobest wrote:

The luas link-up is primarily focused on existing luas passengers so that they can finish their journey by tram,

As is the metro, people travelling from Swords are hardly going to be bothered about the amount they have to walk from Abbey St/O'Connell St, or Stephen's Green to a point in between. You seem to be advocating building a station to cater mostly for people who want to hop on at O'Connell St and get off at Trinity. The cost doesn't seem worth it considering they have another albeit slower alternative.

One factor that hasn't been addressed is the actual distance. Is it really feasible to have three stops O'Connell St, Trinity and Stephens Green so close together? Surely the Metro will hardly have got out of one before its in the other, especially at Trinity/Stephen's Green.

Victor · 06-04-2006 6:10pm

MicraBoy wrote:

905 people an hour are going to get on at Trinity to go to Stephen's Green

I think thats in both directions

One factor that hasn't been addressed is the actual distance. Is it really feasible to have three stops O'Connell St, Trinity and Stephens Green so close together? Surely the Metro will hardly have got out of one before its in the other, especially at Trinity/Stephen's Green.

It depends on where Stephen's Green is, what if one end of it is actually at Cuffe Street and the other end of Trinity is at the Quays?

Metrobest · 07-04-2006 6:51am

Winters wrote:

I could argue that the O'Reilly Metro Report is somewhat out of date considering the changes to the format recently.

The patronage stats do indeed speak volumes but the RPA are designing the system with 750/1000m (ie. 15 minute walking distance) catchments and there are a few points that must be understood.

The O'Connell Street stop is located opposite the Gresham and the Trinity Stop is located opposite the Gas building on D'Olier Street. If there was to be a combined station it would be located opposite Easons/Penneys on O'Connell Street.

The O'Reilly report stats did not consider the Luas link up, the Green line extension to South Finglas or the metro north extension to Swords. The RPA have indicated that they are confident that a more centrally located O'Connell Street would encompass both the original O'Connell Street and Trinity catchments. Combining the two stops is not going to lose any passengers.

The Trinity to Tara travelator came about from a brief from a misinformed Seamus Brennan at a time when the respective agencys had no idea what plans were going to get the go-ahead and when. T21 changed that.

Correct me on this but from what I remember the anticipated journey time from St. Stephen's Green to O'Connell Street on street will be 5 minutes and all the trams will have priority at the traffic signals. I would presume it would be quicker than 5 mins tho.

True, but the basic conclusion of the passenger projections is that Trinity is an extremely important destination; the ratio of passengers alighting at Trinity versus O'Connell during the peak is roughly 3:1 in favour of Trinity.

It's worth the extra cost of a stop at Trinity because if we're going to spend eur2bn on a metro, it should take people directly into the city centre where they want to go, in a zero-change journey. It's not a suburban train, it's a metro. Short distances between city centre metro stops are common the world over, especially in cities Dublin's size. For ordinary Dubliners, the prospect of quick hop journeys across the city will be fully embraced and availed of, especially when Singapore-style smart cards become a reality (if Dublin Bus/CIE stop their intransigence and allow the sensible smart card option to proceed :mad: ).

If you did a survey of people living in the catchment area of metroNorth and asked them whether they would they rather one metro station at the GPO, or two at Trinity and O'Connell Street ...well you'd wonder why you'd bothered doing a survey in the first place as the answer is obvious.

They'd want both stations...

While 15 minutes walking distance might entice people to walk to their metro station in the suburbs, different factors come into play in a city centre environment. Such as,
- wait times at pedestrian crossings
- volume of pedestrian traffic on the pavement
- safety/security issues
- exposure to adverse weather conditions at river crossing points

A metro station located at the Gresham hotel has the advantage of proximity to the important upper O'Connell Street/Parnell Street area with its cinemas and theatres and entertainment venues. The southernmost station exit would presumably surface close to the spire/GPO, so the actual advantage of "combining" the two stations as to "integrate" with the red line could be a red herring.

We have all the evidence we need already to conclude that on-street trams are not efficient. The luas between Heuston and Connolly has proven to be a disaster bedevilled by crashes, overcrowding and inconsistent journey times (tallaght trams are not reaching their projected journey times and this is down to the volume of junctions and light sequences on the route). The Green line extension cannot be seen as a substitute for a metro station at College Green.

There are precedents in metro systems all over the world for busy city centre stations to be located at extremely close proximity. Dropping College Green would be one of most glaring examples of shortsighted Irish planning. I urge everyone to reconsider.

paulm17781 · 07-04-2006 9:14am

Metrobest wrote:

If you did a survey of people living in the catchment area of metroNorth and asked them whether they would they rather one metro station at the GPO, or two at Trinity and O'Connell Street ...well you'd wonder why you'd bothered doing a survey in the first place as the answer is obvious. They'd want both stations...

I live in Temple Bar. A college green stop would be nice but not essential.

Stephen's green, O'Connell / Abbey St., Drumcondra is much more sensible.

Your Tara St. festish is unnecessary and as someone who lives in Dublin, there are no real problems with on street trams.

murphaph · 07-04-2006 1:23pm

Metrobest wrote:

True, but the basic conclusion of the passenger projections is that Trinity is an extremely important destination; the ratio of passengers alighting at Trinity versus O'Connell during the peak is roughly 3:1 in favour of Trinity.

But that was a upper O'Connell St station. A station nearer to the river at Abbey St (possibly entrances right at O'Connell/Bachelor's Walk (we don't know yet) would easily serve the College Green area.

Metrobest wrote:

A metro station located at the Gresham hotel has the advantage of proximity to the important upper O'Connell Street/Parnell Street area with its cinemas and theatres and entertainment venues. The southernmost station exit would presumably surface close to the spire/GPO, so the actual advantage of "combining" the two stations as to "integrate" with the red line could be a red herring.

I don't really think walkng from Abbey St to the Savoy is gonna kill anyone. It's what, 5 mins tops?

Metrobest wrote:

We have all the evidence we need already to conclude that on-street trams are not efficient. The luas between Heuston and Connolly has proven to be a disaster bedevilled by crashes, overcrowding and inconsistent journey times (tallaght trams are not reaching their projected journey times and this is down to the volume of junctions and light sequences on the route). The Green line extension cannot be seen as a substitute for a metro station at College Green.

The Green Line extension from the Green to O'Connell St wil be quite different from The Red Line from Heuston to Connolly as there will be far fewer junctions with streets carrying vehicular traffic. The entirety of O'Connell St, Bridge, Westmoreland St, College Green and lower Grafton St are to be rid of cars as par of DCC's plans for a 'walking city'. The tram fits in well with this. Much of this is dependent on the Port Tunnel/M50 upgrade, Macken St bridge etc. You have to imagine the scene 10 years from now, not looking at a choked College Green today. The tram isn't a substitute for metro but whenever I'm in Munich I use surface trams rather than U Bahn for short hops in town. It's just easier I find.

Winters · 07-04-2006 5:54pm

The 'problems' with the red line on the Heuston to Abbey Street section are somewhat misunderstood on these boards I think.

The accidents stem directly from the Irish mentality to what exactly a red light means. There has been an improvement to most of the high risk junctions in the guise of better signage and road markings etc. but it's all about awareness and education and I don't believe we've had a serious accident for a while now. The RPA are seeing an improvement with the new signage in place.

The actual journey time is poor however but that is not down to the signalling nor the 'on street' running. It is actually down to the sightlines at the junctions due to adjacent buildings. The junctions are effectively blind junctions with very poor sightlines both from the tram line and also the oncoming traffic. When the tram has a 'green' light to proceed it does so at a much lower speed as compared to an open junction. It 'creeps and peeps' if any of you know that term. This is the reason that part of the line is perceived as slow. Until a period of confidence from the drivers and/or better sightlines is reached no amount of upgraded signalling is going to improve the line speed.

In additional news yet unrelated to metro north in December 2005 the RPA signed contracts for the delivery in Easter 2007 of additional 10m sections for the red line trams to bring them up to 40m in length. The RPA and Connex hope to reduce the end to end journey time on the Green line from 22 mins to 20 mins and in the future the RPA said that it is possible to bring the operating frequency on the Green line down from 5 min intervals to 3 min intervals and lengthen the trams from 40m to 50m.

With all this talk of Luas v Metro its interesting to note that the proposed metro is only a longer Luas with the ability to run slightly faster and more frequently. With a width of 2.65m, top speed of 80 kph compared with the Luas' 2.4m and 70 kph its only a small step up which is exactly what Dublin needs. The fact that it's called metro is through political bragging rights. If the RPA had their way they'd call it Luas Blue line.

A Dub in Glasgo · 08-04-2006 11:12am

Went to the open day in the Regency and the PR was good but I have serious concerns about.

1. Stilts from DCU straight through the redeveloped Ballymun. This will be a nightmare if it goes ahead. Storing up major problems for the future. Have the RPA done an environmental impact study or is it effectively fait accompli once the route is chosen?

2. Dropping airport passengers off at the hotel is a farce. If you are going to do something, do it right first time!

3. The complete lack of integration in the whole plan (apart from the Green)

4. The capacity of the service. In the peak time, the trams may well be full before they get to Ballymun especially if they do the P&R at Lissenhall.

On the subject of the LUAS, I took the tram from The Square into Abbey Street and my god, it can be a frustrating experience, just like sitting on a bus with all the traffic lights and the speed.

murphaph · 08-04-2006 1:48pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

1. Stilts from DCU straight through the redeveloped Ballymun. This will be a nightmare if it goes ahead. Storing up major problems for the future. Have the RPA done an environmental impact study or is it effectively fait accompli once the route is chosen?

Nah, shouldn't think so. The guy I spoke to reckoned they'd have some major objections to elevated running and a compromise may well be on the cards (running at grade along the central reservation but dipping under road junctions to maintain segregaation. As the RPA guy put it to me "you have to balance segregation with severance and at grade running is the cheapest option but creates the most community severance".

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

2. Dropping airport passengers off at the hotel is a farce. If you are going to do something, do it right first time!

Yep, but did they explain it to you? They told me (and others) that they had been granted funding for the cheapo option but negotiations were sill under way with FCC and DAA to source cash to build the tunnel option. The guy said they (the RPA) were looking at making savings elsewhere to help too.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

3. The complete lack of integration in the whole plan (apart from the Green)

Yeah, the maps are worrying at first glance but when they explain that station locations are highly indicative and things can change a lot between now and construction (hopefully influenced by all our submissions it's not so bad. The whole Tara crock was Brennan sticking his oar in. The RPA really don't want to curve off to serve it at all. They want to go straight up and integrate with Red Line Luas at Abbey St and then integrate properly with the Maynooth Line. That's all that's needed (apart from the green) in reality.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

4. The capacity of the service. In the peak time, the trams may well be full before they get to Ballymun especially if they do the P&R at Lissenhall.

I thought the same myself initially but in the context of T21 or shortly after it's not inconceivable that a proper P&R station would be built along the M1 near Balbriggan DART to ake pressure off Lissenhall. Also worth remembering that the RPA are wanting to build a full delta junction where metroWest joins metroNorth at metroPark, so trains may run into town from that approach too. I believe short running to the airport is being considered which would also solve that problem.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

On the subject of the LUAS, I took the tram from The Square into Abbey Street and my god, it can be a frustrating experience, just like sitting on a bus with all the traffic lights and the speed.

Yeah it's brutal along there isn't it. Hopefully in the decades to come the much more segregated parts of Red Line can be integrated into metro.

EVERYONE needs to make a submissio and copy your local TDs and Ahern/Cullen/Cowen on it.

Metro North open days

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