How would you characterise the Irish?

berliner wrote: »

Er..this might come as a bit of a shock but there is no culture in Ireland.We let the language die.We all support english teams/watch BBC.Read english newspapers.Makes you wonder why we bothered with the whole independence mularkey.

nope, i support an italian team and don't read english newspapers and i don't watch bbc/english channels. so not ''all'' of us do.

Wibbs wrote: »

Import and export fine? I have regular problems in that area on a business front and the blockage nine times outa ten is here. Don't get me started on our postal service. I have had so many issues there, that I just don't rely on it for international stuff. I've tracked registered international packages, that have taken 2 to 3 days to get this country from other states in the EU, only to sit in Port Laoise sorting office for anything up to 4 weeks. I can think of only one instance where something came to me from the sorting office in the same time it took to get to ireland in the first place.

I can only counter your anecdotal suggestion with one of my own. I import a lot from Korea via the postal service and I think I've only had any major issue once when the British postal service got a hold of whatever I was shipping for whatever reason. I've had occasional gripes when things are shipped through Germany too but as soon as they hit Ireland I'm pretty much fine.

In terms of import/export I mean heavier goods and major business concerns which are handled extraordinarily well.

Public transport is hardly fine and I'm not talking about "supertrains". Damn buses whinging is well founded. The much vaunted luas went trough years of cost overruns and general farcical fúckups and the tracks are already showing signs of degradation(the sleepers). More money for the fúckups due to idiotic planning. The dart works ok but as you said the trains are shít. The roads are getting there, slowly, but again the list of fúckups is lengthy. The M50 alone could fill pages of screwups and continues to do so. The dublin underground looks like it's going to repeat the pattern. That's just dublin the parlous state of many of our country roads is yet another problem. Aircraft are run by the private sector and even there look at the issues with dublin airport over the last few years.

I've never understood people who complain about the public transport here. Nobody likes taking buses, anywhere. That's fine. But they run grand here. The Luas may have run overbudget in its first few years (no major catastrophe given that it was a new service) but it's done what it was intended to do: Alleviate strain on Dublin roads and other transit services. The fantasy that transport in the capital doesn't work is self-defeating, given that movement into and out of the city operates well on a daily basis. The M50 has had issues but far less than virtually every major new motorway in Britain and no more than any new major road built anywhere throughout the rest of Europe. The basic problem with motorway theory is that it creates traffic rather than alleviates it, but that's a different story. It's a strange desire to depict the country in an unfavourable light by targeting areas that are, quite simply... fine.

I don't think we're going to move off many of these points. You seem perfectly entrenched in your ideology in spite of the reality of the situation.

A free turd is still a turd. People may complain in france and canada, but they have better access to better healthcare than the irish. Fact. I agree, but again ours is among the worst if not the worst example of that trait.

You're going to need to produce some figures to support that claim, as while living in Canada I heard in the same measure of stories about trolleys and periods before diagnosis, these isolated horror stories. In fact, I possibly heard it more often given the emphasis placed on the health service over there. Pretty much everybody I've known with any serious health issue have negotiated the HSE virtually without complaint. While the services of France and Canada are likely better than our own, painting the distinction as being so drastic is flatly inappropriate. Now, I just took this off wikipedia so I dunno if it's entirely accurate, but it is quite striking: "A survey, commissioned by the HSE in 2007, found that patient satisfaction with the health service was quite high, with 90% of inpatients and 85% of outpatients saying they were satisfied with their treatment. In addition to this, 97% said they were satisfied with the care provided by their GP." Those are incredibly high figures given the picture you're painting, here.

It's not perfect at all and there are some serious gaps, but it's good and very respectable in a global context.

I know I lived through it so no need for an FYI. You had access to a below par health system, now you have less access to a below par health system.

Statistics please.

I'm happy for you. I see it on a regular basis in the real world.That's a cultural thing. House foreclosures here are much lower than other countries and always were. The banks are more reticent to foreclose and evict people in this country due to the holdover of "the brits evicted people from the land" kinda thing. We have the highest level of home ownership in europe if not the world, yet one of the lowest eviction rates. The two are connected. Another example of how history effects culture.

That's a crazy theory right there. Honestly, do you feel any major banking institution would forgive enormous bad debt for the sake of not offending anyone that may have survived since the famine? Absolutely not. Even the appearance of that would cause the shareholders to castrate anyone in a position of authority.

The easy answer is that the generation of wealth and private management of money has been relatively good in this country. I mean there's still a load of debt floating around every western nation (credit cards in particular in our case) but major financing has been handled here very competently.

That's all lovely in theory and it's all good, but the reality is that for a multitude of reasons many people are financially very close to the raggedy edge. Let's look at families. One area that is incredibly bad in this country is childcare. Access to it and the cost of it. A generation of grannies is looking after kids because the parents can't afford to put them in childcare. The weekly food bills are higher, the cost of transport is higher and if god forbid the kids get sick..... Do a straw poll on people stuck in the carpark that is the M50 at rushhour and see what they say.

Childcare absolutely needs to be handled, I totally agree. However, it mostly just affects single parent households rather than the double income families who would mostly avail of such a service. There's been a lot of consternation that many families now see both parents working, as if it's been a reaction to a massive cost of living increase. The reality is that it's simply a lifestyle and standard of living choice. The evidence for this lies in the enormous number of single income families that still exist in this country, far more than in most other European nations. The food cost "crisis" is crazy. Food prices have increased dramatically in certain developing world nations but have only increased by an ammount just a hair above the level of inflation in this country. There remains a global food surplus and crisis is one of infrastructure. Transport can be a major expense for students, perhaps, but for people in full employment I don't see it as a major issue. Fantasy.

The fact is it's not negligible. I have quite a few friends who live in and work in europe and their money simply goes further.Our economy is healthy and we do have more money, but how much we pay for things is concomitantly higher.

I can see it going further in, for example, the housing market in certain cities. However, this doesn't negate the point that our buying power abroad is far more favourable than others coming here and that cost of living adjusted for inflation and income is virtually uniform across western Europe.

We drink more, have more antisocial behaviour and more hospital admissions due to drink and drugs than the major cities in europe.

Stasticially, we're within the top three consumers of beer but very low in terms of spirits and wine. Our drinking is ahead of Germany, France and Italy by a hair and we're about on par with the UK and Finland. However, our level of antisocial behaviour and drink related hospital admissions is markedly lower than elsewhere. It's still a major problem, but not a uniquely Irish one.

Do you write pamphlets for the government?

No, I'm no fan of the government. I'm just realistic.

You only say that because you're young. Simple as that. Every generation thinks it has invented itself to one degree or other. It's one of the benefits and pitfalls of youth. 10 years? that's actually laughable. If you had said since the mid 80's or even early mid 90's you may have garnered some agreement, but since 98? Nope.

Should've been 20 there. Consider the distinction between the lifestyle of somebody in their 30s now and somebody in their 30s in the mid eighties. There's no comparison. Youth has nothing to do with it. You can even see this distinction in the art produced in this country in last several years, often exploring the past and trying to reconcile it with a distant present

Read around here long enough and you'll see the tabloid culture at work. It's incredibly popular. We have little high ground to look down on others for it.

I disagree and I've stated why your assertion is incorrect more than once by now.

If you don't see why an adaptive culture is better even from an evolutionary standpoint we're on hiding to nothing.

I have no idea what you're talking about. You need to define your terms because nobody else on the planet uses them.

The difference between the culture of youth now and in 1988 is not that big, I hate to tell you. Of course there has been change, but far less than you may think. I was that soldier. 40 years ago you would have a point.

I'm not speaking explicitly about the culture of youth, but lifestyle across the board. If you don't feel there's a distinction you're truly living in this bleak fantasy space you've built for yourself.

Well we clearly each have had very different experiences.

Yep, but my position is supported by fact.

I was talking about that too as I have to deal with same on a regular basis.

The import/export infrastructure here is both efficient and cost effective, one of the many reasons light industry initially moved here and has remained for so long. If you disagree, you're disagreeing with the consensus of an entire business community.

That's because it's below par.

You can ignore the rest of the argument in which I explain why it isn't, no sweat.

Overbudget? From 288 millions to nearly 800 millions? That's not merely over budget that's madness. And it's already running into maintenance issues. If that's efficiency or planning at work..... And you wonder why people may worry about the proposed metro. There's planning issues starting with that already because different depts screwed up. Lets watch the money rack up on that one, if history is anything to go by.

Last year the Luas ran a surplus of nearly a million in spite of the portion of the debt it was budgeted to pay down. That is to say, it turned a major profit while substantially reducing the incumberence of its initial cost. The original budget for the Luas was utterly unrealistic and the plans became more ambitious as it went into development. It's a long term investment that will ultimately yield a very substantial profit and is already providing very effective relief to Dublin transit problems as it was designed to do. If it wasn't going to do so, why would private equity partners agree to take on some of the debt and potentially support future extensions to the system?

Now I really know you're having a laugh. My glass is half empty replies to you are entirely down to your pink fluffy clouds notions.

I'm providing fact and you're providing conjecture. You're very much the person propagating fantasy in this case.

Again massive cost over runs, silly planning, that meant they've had to spend even more cash to rectify it as it's basic design and implementation was arseways and lets not forget the debacle that was the sale of the tolling. The port tunnel is yet another half joke. Simply because they could have been and be so much better, with planning, better allocation of funds and some simple brains involved.

The port tunnel was a bit of a disaster, though not for the reasons you're suggesting. I was actually quite relieved when the cost of the M50 began to explode. It happens in the construction of every major new motorway in Europe and in previous decades we'd had a habit of cutting our losses when the budget began to expand (as is now expected in any major construction around the continent) and abandoning the project leaving a half-assed product. The M50 and the tunnel have become vital parts of our infrastructure and, though rush hour remains rush hour on the M50, they perform their roles as expected. Whether it was worth the cost is a matter of opinion but mine is that ultimately they have yielded an important benefit to the economy (the tunnel in particular) that will more than pay for themselves over time.

Simply because they could have been and be so much better, with planning, better allocation of funds and some simple brains involved.

"Better allocation of funds" is a nebulous term indeed. Most of the "planning" for modern infrastructural development comes from the European Regional Development Fund and not the Irish government, as an aside.

Ditto.

You see, in my case, I'm debating using points that are factual and, well, real.

bla bla bla

Good one.

I think I'll go with WWM on this and just have a snigger and walk away. To assume everything is bad is the same as everything is fine. Nothing gets done to improve things.

I've never stated that everything is fine. In fact, I've repeatedly commented that things could be substantially better. I've been doing two things here. Firstly, defending my initial point that there is a large degree of professionalism, pragmatism and rationality inherent to Irish culture. Secondly, I've been curbing demonstrably untrue assertions that certain aspects of Irish society are in some way fundamentally deficient. In either case, you've failed to argue effectively or make any substantial or factual point to the contrary. You can "snigger and walk away" all you want, it doesn't do your case any favours.

This country certainly isn't perfect. None are. However, it's perfectly alright to accept the visible truths that the economy is healthy, society is stable and the country is well-managed to a reasonable extent. It seems that a strange insecurity and hyper-negativity often accompanies any criticism of the state or its society. I think people here should be able to accept the fact that the country is now one of the more affluent and effective nations of the western world, as crude a statement as that may seem, and perhaps provides a substantially better standard of living to its citizens than most of the larger European states (as the smaller states have tended to do in recent decades). There is also a sentiment that people should dissociate themselves from notions of nationalism with all the conflicting associations such a term carries in this society. Certainly, pride (national pride in particular) is a very problematic concept and one that should be viewed with suspicion. But that insecurity and irrational dislike take its place instead of, say, humility is more than a little unsettling.

I still reckon as i'm sure many have if it were not for 80 miles of irish sea Ireland would have become a more multiculutred society sooner .Look at the mainland of europe.Most countries arm in arm (not that they have any say in it ) and have always had a diverse of cultures ,some more welcome than others .

Look at Wales Scotland England ,all joined at the hip and all 3 have had natives living in each country for decades ,some more than others