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How would you characterise the Irish?
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59035
They are from the pale, or they have lived there for two long.
The irish have a much reduced culture when compared to many in europe. We have little in the way of a national cuisine, never mind a local one. Our architectural heritage is sparse. The vast majority of towns look and act the same. etc We are a very homogenous culture, more driven by outside influences. That's increasing not reducing too.
You compare that to Italy or Spain or France or Holland or Germany or....? No comparison. Even a tiny population like the Icelandics have a more diverse culture.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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did anyone mention filthy0
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imeddyhobbs wrote: »I was in the car with my slovak girlfriend recently driving around lonely roads in wexford,she was driving.
Walkers put their hands up to say hello and drivers also saluted she asked why were they waving and saluting and i said its because we are irish and a friendly race...Am i wrong?
Have to agree . I've been quite a few places around the world, doing the world trip thing, and the one thing I missed was the intelligent banter and friendliness of the Irish . I found when I was in Australia that the irish people in a group would always be the most social and extroverted....0 -
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The irish have a much reduced culture when compared to many in europe. We have little in the way of a national cuisine, never mind a local one. Our architectural heritage is sparse. The vast majority of towns look and act the same. etc We are a very homogenous culture, more driven by outside influences. That's increasing not reducing too.
You compare that to Italy or Spain or France or Holland or Germany or....? No comparison. Even a tiny population like the Icelandics have a more diverse culture.
We tend to run ourselves down, has anyone mentioned that yet.0 -
this is hilarious, i think the Irish are a lot of things, funny, random, loud etc but after working in xtravision for a year iv come to the conclusion that were the tightest ppl when it comes to money, while half the ppl you serve in a night getting a bag of popcorn, when asked to pay off a small fine of 2 euros the go mad, want to know when and where and who took it out and 'they all didnt get that one!' augh then they have the cheek of sayin oh i cant pay it now, maybe later, and hand you a 50 when gettin popcorn...drives me absolutely mad!0
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I wouldn't agree with the comment on us being tight, I worked in sales for a company selling to the UK and Ireland and I always prefered dealing with Irish peope - the English people especially where tight cnuts, the Irish could allways be brought around to your way of thinking if ya know what I mean.
Does that make us foolish?
Probably.
But we're all great for it.0 -
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We don't piss off the rest of the world unlike a lot of countries.0
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Saints? No. Humourous? Sure. Staggering != Dancing.
Sexy? That may have to be reserved for Latin or Italian or (mmm) German breeds. Gotta love them wimmins.
One or two drinks a day == officially alcoholic in any other country.
Yes you do seem to hate yourselves but that may be down to drink. The whole country suffers from depression.
Not welcoming, Not hostile.
More stereotypes, see: Intermission.0 -
begrudging0
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For the most part, it's a far more pragmatic, realistic and unpretentious culture here. Just my view, being a bit of an outsider.
I *think* (so don't quote me) that Ireland is within the top three on the UN human development index, quality of life index and EU GDP per capita. That's absurdly impressive given where the country was twenty years ago, and it's far higher than most of the major EU nations.
I think people don't appreciate how well distributed the wealth of this country is. Across the economic divide, we're a far more comfortable people than most westerners. Inflation may be a touch high, but the overall cost of living (particularly toward the lower income end) is far more favourable here than elsewhere.
Culturally, Ireland is very distinct in a purely social fashion. There are few of the major historical hallmarks around Dublin than in other cities, sure, but that comes as a result of not being a barbaric imperial power. A lot of people express dissatisfaction with most "cultural" activities: Clubbing, going to pubs, generally just pissing about, they all get tiring. I'm one of them. However, the sad fact is that there is little different elsewhere in the west. I don't want to tap into the old "friendly Irish" business, but I've found Irish people have tended to be more open minded and less easily offended (indeed, the perceived virtue of being offended that you often get in England isn't quite so prominent here).
Additionally, there is a fantastic culture of social self-reflection in this country. While it may border on occasional national insecurity (as exhibited by some of the negative posters in here), it's a very healthy trait.
Politically, all the major parties skirt around the centre. While a touch boring, it demonstrates a mature pragmatism. When I hear politicians speak on questions and answers or the week in politics they speak of policy rather than aloof ideology, which is very refreshing.
Overall, I'm extremely happy here and feel there's a lot to be proud of. Compared to cultures abroad, I feel Irish people tend to be more realistic and rational and thus more approachable. The Irish business sector is fantastic for this reason alone.0 -
I would also point out that culture is not synonymous with cultural trappings or historical hallmarks (somebody mentioned "cuisine" in a very weird post above). Culture is a more nebulous concept and certainly a vitally immediate one, perhaps influenced by but certainly divorced from history and antecedents.0
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Oh, and also:
Think about the number of people who answered "begrudging" to this thread. Consider pretty much every other major nation in Europe. Can you think of a single one devoid of problems relating to prejudice or intolerence?
The only distinction is that in Ireland the phenomenon is very widely acknowledged and openly criticised. Indeed, elsewhere, this begrudging attitude is often prized, encouraged or seen as somehow valid.0 -
I would also point out that culture is not synonymous with cultural trappings or historical hallmarks (somebody mentioned "cuisine" in a very weird post above). Culture is a more nebulous concept and certainly a vitally immediate one, perhaps influenced by but certainly divorced from history and antecedents.
ah yes. bacon and cabbage. fine irish cuisine. and coddle (which is disgusting)0 -
For the most part, it's a far more pragmatic, realistic and unpretentious culture here. Just my view, being a bit of an outsider.
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indeed. although, im not sure how one catagorises a culture as pragmatic?
do you mean that it just gets up and does stuff without thinking it through or something?
i find it amazing that someone would try use personification on something like culture. it just doesnt work.I *think* (so don't quote me) that Ireland is within the top three on the UN human development index, quality of life index and EU GDP per capita. That's absurdly impressive given where the country was twenty years ago, and it's far higher than most of the major EU nations.
i have no idea what a human development scale is, but id like to subscribe to your newsletter.
is this a characterisation of the irish?
I think people don't appreciate how well distributed the wealth of this country is. Across the economic divide, we're a far more comfortable people than most westerners. Inflation may be a touch high, but the overall cost of living (particularly toward the lower income end) is far more favourable here than elsewhere. .
cost of living my friend is outrageous. and one would think that the cost of living for those towards the lower income end would be harsher.
ive lived in several countries, and with the exception of denmark, those bastions of socialism, ireland is the most expensive country i have lived in.Culturally, Ireland is very distinct in a purely social fashion. There are few of the major historical hallmarks around Dublin than in other cities, sure, but that comes as a result of not being a barbaric imperial power. A lot of people express dissatisfaction with most "cultural" activities: Clubbing, going to pubs, generally just pissing about, they all get tiring. I'm one of them. However, the sad fact is that there is little different elsewhere in the west. I don't want to tap into the old "friendly Irish" business, but I've found Irish people have tended to be more open minded and less easily offended (indeed, the perceived virtue of being offended that you often get in England isn't quite so prominent here).
ah yes, that good irish culture of clubbing and pissing about.
and irish people being more open minded?
are you sure youve been to ireland?
i have found that many irish people are insular and closed minded.
percieved virtue?
youre not a foreign student going mad with a dictionary are you?Additionally, there is a fantastic culture of social self-reflection in this country. While it may border on occasional national insecurity (as exhibited by some of the negative posters in here), it's a very healthy trait.
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????
self reflection?
self loathing more like it.Politically, all the major parties skirt around the centre. While a touch boring, it demonstrates a mature pragmatism. When I hear politicians speak on questions and answers or the week in politics they speak of policy rather than aloof ideology, which is very refreshing.
now i know youre taking the mickey.
seriously.
you are in fact basing everything youve said about ireland after a bottle a tequila and a viewing of darby o gill and the little people.
right?Overall, I'm extremely happy here and feel there's a lot to be proud of. Compared to cultures abroad, I feel Irish people tend to be more realistic and rational and thus more approachable. The Irish business sector is fantastic for this reason alone.
realism and rationalism has nothing to do with approachability.
the irish business sector is not fantastic. capitalism and corperations are fantastic.
seriously, you do know this is ireland youre talking about, and not any other country on the planet?
and put down the dictionary.I would also point out that culture is not synonymous with cultural trappings or historical hallmarks (somebody mentioned "cuisine" in a very weird post above). Culture is a more nebulous concept and certainly a vitally immediate one, perhaps influenced by but certainly divorced from history and antecedents.
im sorry. can you say that in english so we can understand what youre saying?Oh, and also:
Think about the number of people who answered "begrudging" to this thread. Consider pretty much every other major nation in Europe. Can you think of a single one devoid of problems relating to prejudice or intolerence?
The only distinction is that in Ireland the phenomenon is very widely acknowledged and openly criticised. Indeed, elsewhere, this begrudging attitude is often prized, encouraged or seen as somehow valid.
im not sure what your point is here.
is this some sort of validation for ireland being a country of begrudgers?
i actually cant think of a single country where begrudgery is encouraged or prized. its not a pleasant trait. in fact, ireland is the only country i know where begrudgery is a common trait.0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59035
We tend to run ourselves down, has anyone mentioned that yet.Kovik wrote:I would also point out that culture is not synonymous with cultural trappings or historical hallmarks (somebody mentioned "cuisine" in a very weird post above).Culture is a more nebulous concept and certainly a vitally immediate one, perhaps influenced by but certainly divorced from history and antecedents.There are few of the major historical hallmarks around Dublin than in other cities, sure, but that comes as a result of not being a barbaric imperial power.
The only distinction is that in Ireland the phenomenon is very widely acknowledged and openly criticised. Indeed, elsewhere, this begrudging attitude is often prized, encouraged or seen as somehow valid.
In one simple way we can be very proud of us as a people. Outside the influence of rome and it's fall we preserved in stone huts among the last lights of the classical age. Without those people the europe of today would have been very very different. We then went and brought that knowledge back to a europe that had largely forgotten it. We hear all the usual about the land of saints and scholars, but I don't think we appreciate how much of a knock on effect we had. Without those mad monks and the ones they taught all over europe, the renaissance and the age of enlightenment may have never happened or happened much later.
We have continued to do so in the centuries since and even today. For such a tiny out of the way place our influence on modern culture is vast by comparison to many. Even if we may often act like little americans wearing the same clothes watching the same stuff listening to the same music, etc much of that wouldn't be around but for us. It wasn't our various governments or obvious institutions, but ordinary and extraordinary irish men and women, that had that influence. So in a way although we may not have the obvious touristy culture going on, we should be rightfully proud of that and our continued presence on the world stage.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59035
WhiteWashMan wrote:cost of living my friend is outrageous. and one would think that the cost of living for those towards the lower income end would be harsher.
ive lived in several countries, and with the exception of denmark, those bastions of socialism, ireland is the most expensive country i have lived in.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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WhiteWashMan wrote: »indeed. although, im not sure how one catagorises a culture as pragmatic?
do you mean that it just gets up and does stuff without thinking it through or something?
i find it amazing that someone would try use personification on something like culture. it just doesnt work.i have no idea what a human development scale is, but id like to subscribe to your newsletter.
It's a measurement of not only economic proficiency but also the many social variables that supposedly constituted a more rounded and functional society and economy. We're currently third in the EU, fifth worldwide. In comparison, France is 10th, the US is 12th, Spain 13th, the UK 16th and Germany 22nd.is this a characterisation of the irish?cost of living my friend is outrageous. and one would think that the cost of living for those towards the lower income end would be harsher.
ive lived in several countries, and with the exception of denmark, those bastions of socialism, ireland is the most expensive country i have lived in.ah yes, that good irish culture of clubbing and pissing about.and irish people being more open minded?
are you sure youve been to ireland?
i have found that many irish people are insular and closed minded.percieved virtue?
youre not a foreign student going mad with a dictionary are you?????
self reflection?
self loathing more like it.
But in the wider media there is a ton of, just as I said, self-reflection and self-interrogation.now i know youre taking the mickey.
seriously.
you are in fact basing everything youve said about ireland after a bottle a tequila and a viewing of darby o gill and the little people.realism and rationalism has nothing to do with approachability.the irish business sector is not fantastic. capitalism and corperations are fantastic.seriously, you do know this is ireland youre talking about, and not any other country on the planet?.im sorry. can you say that in english so we can understand what youre saying?im not sure what your point is here.
is this some sort of validation for ireland being a country of begrudgers?i actually cant think of a single country where begrudgery is encouraged or prized. its not a pleasant trait. in fact, ireland is the only country i know where begrudgery is a common trait.0 -
That would be me. Cuisine is an example of culture. The most diverse cultures also have the most diverse cuisines. It's a pretty good if strange yardstick. A culture with more diversity when compared to our, say Italy, also has a more diverse cuisine. Same for the French, the Spanish etc. Even the English, not well known for their culinary history have a more diverse cuisine historically.It can't be divorced from and influenced by at the same time to any great degree. One hand washes the other even if to rebel against the past.Great in theory, but we were part and parcel of that barbaric imperial power. We were part of the armies and the administration of that empire and not just the british empire either. We threw in with the american expansion of the 19th century too. To suggest otherwise is plainly daft and revisionist.0 -
The people here are more pragmatic. That is realistic, professional and efficient. I'm not sure where this "does stuff without thinking it through" business comes from.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_development_index
It's a measurement of not only economic proficiency but also the many social variables that supposedly constituted a more rounded and functional society and economy. We're currently third in the EU, fifth worldwide. In comparison, France is 10th, the US is 12th, Spain 13th, the UK 16th and Germany 22nd.
It is reflects my initial statement, yes.
If you're earning overseas and living here, perhaps. But the combination of free education and healthcare, very low taxation and high earning overwhelm the somewhat higher inflation here. Urban sprawl around Dublin is a little problem for buyers, coming from Berlin where they're basically giving property away. However, the situation remains far more favourable than in London, for example. Other than that, assuming you're not unemployed I don't see how pure cost of living can be effecting you so much. I will own, a night out is a little on the expensive side compared to the new Eastern European destinations, but nothing incredible.
It is the culture of an entire hemisphere. It's not different or better overseas.
I'm not sure about your own situation but I've found meeting new people here to be incredibly easy compared to elsewhere. In general, I think a lot of people find it jarring when trying to speak to new people abroad. I find Irish business people incredibly accessible and reasonable compared to the hoop-jumping, general aloofness and occasional irrationality of those in the UK. Given my age, I was expecting work to be quite difficult but in Ireland people were happy to listen to the pitch, while in the UK I was constantly fielding questions about youth.
Well, I'm a student I guess.
Maybe on the internet.
But in the wider media there is a ton of, just as I said, self-reflection and self-interrogation.
You're basing your view on an overly negative fantasy, whereas mine is derived from unbiased observation and fact. This is Ireland in 2008, not Siberia circa 1952?
That wasn't really my point but I disagree all the same. Approaching somebody with a wealth of preconceptions and a closed mind is not going to get you very far.
Irish entrepreneurs do exceedingly well, both inside and outside of the country. The business sector is doing incredibly well, you need only observe the health of the economy and the capacity for our financial services sector to basically emerge from the credit fiasco unscaved.
Do you?
In brief, culture is not defined by history.
It's that if the entire country is going around lamenting the fact that there are so many "begrudgers" around, not only is it indicative of a cultural rejection of such an ideology but also that the problem is not quite as innate as you would be led to believe. Also, only the term is unique to Ireland, the phenomenon is worldwide. By virtue of rejecting it in such visceral terms is the country not perhaps more palatable than, say, the England and its acceptance of a tabloid culture?
Observe every nation in Europe with, let's say, a deep anti-EU or anti-immigration sentiment, or still holding a grudge against old rivals for trivial reasons. In many corners, such feelings are expressed openly and prized. In fact, it's widespread throughout most of Europe. I'm not saying such sentiment does not exist here, merely that it is less acceptable, contained in a firm minority and almost universally condemned by legitimate media.
i guess i'll just have to disagree with you on pretty much all of your points.
but you have made me smile.
see, the irish have a great sense of humour!
the only problem is, people often mix it up laughing with, and laughing at.0 -
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Interesting stuff.
How about this, The Irish: Extremely self critical, yet proud.0 -
I'd characterise the Irish with a mix of characters from J.M Synges' 'The Playboy of the Western World' and an episode of Fair City.0
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59035
The people here are more pragmatic. That is realistic, professional and efficient. I'm not sure where this "does stuff without thinking it through" business comes from.If you're earning overseas and living here, perhaps. But the combination of free education and healthcare, very low taxation and high earning overwhelm the somewhat higher inflation here.Urban sprawl around Dublin is a little problem for buyers, coming from Berlin where they're basically giving property away.Other than that, assuming you're not unemployed I don't see how pure cost of living can be effecting you so much. I will own, a night out is a little on the expensive side compared to the new Eastern European destinations, but nothing incredible.It is the culture of an entire hemisphere. It's not different or better overseas.I'm not sure about your own situation but I've found meeting new people here to be incredibly easy compared to elsewhere. In general, I think a lot of people find it jarring when trying to speak to new people abroad. I find Irish business people incredibly accessible and reasonable compared to the hoop-jumping, general aloofness and occasional irrationality of those in the UK. Given my age, I was expecting work to be quite difficult but in Ireland people were happy to listen to the pitch, while in the UK I was constantly fielding questions about youth.You're basing your view on an overly negative fantasy, whereas mine is derived from unbiased observation and fact. This is Ireland in 2008, not Siberia circa 1952?Irish entrepreneurs do exceedingly well, both inside and outside of the country.The business sector is doing incredibly well, you need only observe the health of the economy and the capacity for our financial services sector to basically emerge from the credit fiasco unscaved.Do you?In brief, culture is not defined by history.It's that if the entire country is going around lamenting the fact that there are so many "begrudgers" around, not only is it indicative of a cultural rejection of such an ideology but also that the problem is not quite as innate as you would be led to believe. Also, only the term is unique to Ireland, the phenomenon is worldwide. By virtue of rejecting it in such visceral terms is the country not perhaps more palatable than, say, the England and its acceptance of a tabloid culture?But must a culture necessarily contain certain traits to be somehow legitimate?A bit of a garbled sentence on my part, certainly. My point is that culture is an immediate thing, a thing of the present. Whether the past has an influence or not doesn't matter.No culture is superior because various monuments were built in the Victorian period to commemorate killing people.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I have a good question. How the **** do you guys get the funny-ass fodda accents on your u's and i's?0
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59035
Irish keyboard layout. Well that's how I do it in Mac land. Dunno about windows I presume the same.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I know I'm asking for generalisation.
But if you had to describe things that are unique about the Irish, for someone who has not lived in the culture, what would you say?
That's just it, I don't think you CAN generalise. You can't generalise any nation or people. Sure, you can find common behavioural traits with groups of people, but those groups relate more to what the person does for a living, what kind of wealth they grew up with, what social 'class' they belong to...etc. The same 'groups' exist in all countries and are pretty much all the same.
Some people are friendly, some are unfriendly. Some people are softly spoken, some are loud mouths. I could try to imagine Scotland (I've never been there), and I could think of haggis, kilts, caber-tossing, bitter red-haired people whining about the English. I could think about Al Murray's "Four types of Scotsman" routine.
Or, I could be intellectually honest and realise that Scotland is made up of the same groups as any other land in the western world (i.e. Soccer moms, yuppies, chavs, loud mouth hard men, quivering wimps, conservatives, liberals...etc)
Some people in Ireland may want to label themselves as one thing or another, and insist there is an associated culture. In the North, you may have Loyalists and Republicans. In the south, I imagine it's mostly Republicans and Dontgiveash1t-icans (I'd be the latter).
But I think it's time the world stopped trying to generalise, as I think it's the source of many of our problems. I don't care if people have 'positive' generalisations either - a few times I've heard English people say, "Oh I like Irish people, they are friendly", and I thought to myself "well, you haven't met every single Irish person". Am I to believe that after one or two bad experiences they would be saying, "Irish people are unfriendly bastards"..? See, it's a stupid thing to do, whether it's positive or negative.
As for 'culture' - what IS that anyway? And who's allowed to take part in it? Means nothing to me TBH.0 -
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If we're so efficient and professional, how come there isn't a single part of our infrastructure that we can single out as not being fúcked? And this is after a time of unprecedented wealth in this society. Sorry I don't buy it. Couldn't organise a píss up in a brewery springs to mind.Sorry you're living on another planet. Utterly. The quality of our healthcare and access to said healthcare in this country is farcical. People are dying on trolleys on a daily basis for want of a hospital bed. The whole structure of our healthcare is an unmitigated farce. Do you not read the papers? Jeez. I have seen up close the health service of this country and the french system and the spanish system the differences are staggering. The chances of dying here from diagnosed breast cancer are far higher than in france as an example.Education is in crisis in many areas too.Those two examples alone suggest to me you must be living in some ivory tower(economic or other) where this is not affecting you. I presume you've not been sick or have known someone close to you that was, or you don't have kids. Ask anyone with aged relatives or kids, how good our health and education system is. In the 80's here when economically we were boned, you could at least get a hospital bed.
In the 80s hospital beds were in abundance because everyone was leaving the country. And in the 80s, FYI, the healthcare system was appalling.You're having a laugh. A little problem? People are struggling on a daily basis just to keep their head above water on mortgages alone, if they can even get on the property ladder.It's incredibly expensive for food here as an example. I've done a weekly shop in both france and spain and the difference is large. Very.Damn near double that of spain and a good third more than france(and that was paris ffs). A night of entertainment in paris is cheaper than here by a long shot.With the exception of britain, the culture of drinking and entertainment is radically different elsewhere.True. You may have to eat those words sooner rather than later. We are incredibly dependent on outside investment, particularly from the US. We have to make the change and quick to an information based economy and fast or we'll get left behind because of cheaper labour elsewhere. The IFC is another country in so many ways.Actually it is. Pretty much. Damn near every aspect of irish culture is defined through the prism of it's history ancient and recent. Culture doesn't pop up from nowhere you know, unless you think it's in the DNA.We have tabloid culture here. Indeed it's growing.
I saw Newsnight superimpose the faces of two British cabinet members onto an only fools and horses graphic a while back. I cried.I'm not talking about legitimacy I'm talking about diversity. Diversity = better, more adaptive culture.You are having a laugh or have no idea about what constitutes culture and it's influences. That's an incredibly naive and basic view of culture. It doesn't spring from nothing overnight. Yes it evolves and refreshes in the present, but based on the past and new0 -
Not being tolerant of our own or others shortcomings and class obsessed spring to mind , the latter being a more recent observation.0
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The Irish culture is also a very hard working one.0
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