GAME in serious trouble

jill_valentine · 23-03-2012 7:43pm

TheDoc wrote: »

And good riddens to it

Well documented how publishers and devs see it the same as pirating.

Retailers making money hand over first with no investment coming back to the publishers/developers.

If they were making money hand over fist, how come they're all going out of business?

It's been laid out a few times that the preowned market is all that was keeping those stores afloat. They sell new games and consoles purely on speculation of making trade in business later on.

I think publishers are in for a big surprise if they think the death of brick and mortar stores in this country is going to benefit them. There is not nearly enough quality broadband coverage outside of towns and without stores like this, they're losing a massive channel for actually getting their consoles into homes in the first place. Tesco and what have you may be able to pick up the slack for new games, but no way will they be able to meet hardware demand on release days. There's no profit in that for them.

And yeah, the stickers are always in exactly the same place, that's no big deal.

Blowfish · 23-03-2012 7:47pm

jill_valentine wrote: »

I think publishers are in for a big surprise if they think the death of brick and mortar stores in this country is going to benefit them. There is not nearly enough quality broadband coverage outside of towns and without stores like this, they're losing a massive channel for actually getting their consoles into homes in the first place.

Again, why exactly do you need quality broadband if bricks and mortar shops die out? You could buy off Amazon/Play.com etc. using nothing more than dialup without much issue.

Pacing Mule · 23-03-2012 8:02pm

TheDoc wrote: »

And good riddens to it

Well documented how publishers and devs see it the same as pirating.

Retailers making money hand over first with no investment coming back to the publishers/developers.

That's one side of it.

Other side being:

Trade ins fueling new game sales - customers trading in don't need as much money / are more likely to purchase more.
Pre owned market keeping new game prices artificially low.

Which leads to these questions ?

Would you be happy to pay €60 - €70 for a game that has no value to somebody else when you're finished with it (can't be sold on or traded in - that money is gone and committed to that single purchase) ?

How often would you spend that €60 + ?

Would you buy less or more new games ? (For most customers it's less)

Would the people who buy a pre owned game now for €10.00 pay €60.00 for the same game ? (Not very likely at all)

From my perspective the pre owned market particularly here in Ireland is driving the new game sales to the extent that if pre owned is taken out of the loop new game sales will take an almighty fall. (Of course all of this can be offset by publishers pricing games a bit cheaper - but remember this - at the moment the price you are paying here in Ireland is only a fraction higher (and sometimes lower) than the publishers cost price to the retailer.) It would take a monumental price cut from the publishers to make up for the fall off in sales for it to filter down to retail (as retaillers without the pre owned business will have to be charging higher prices than they currently do to stay afloat)

End result - higher prices to the consumer who won't pay for it - leading to retailers shutting down (less competition in the market place) - even higher prices - less new game sales - publishers shut down / scale back - less choice of games - less choice of where to buy the games - nobody wins out in that.

Blowfish · 23-03-2012 8:26pm

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

From my perspective the pre owned market particularly here in Ireland is driving the new game sales to the extent that if pre owned is taken out of the loop new game sales will take an almighty fall. (Of course all of this can be offset by publishers pricing games a bit cheaper - but remember this - at the moment the price you are paying here in Ireland is only a fraction higher (and sometimes lower) than the publishers cost price to the retailer.) It would take a monumental price cut from the publishers to make up for the fall off in sales for it to filter down to retail (as retaillers without the pre owned business will have to be charging higher prices than they currently do to stay afloat)

End result - higher prices to the consumer who won't pay for it - leading to retailers shutting down (less competition in the market place) - even higher prices - less new game sales - publishers shut down / scale back - less choice of games - less choice of where to buy the games - nobody wins out in that.

You are forgetting though that we have evidence available to us of what would happen already.

The advent of CD/DVD R/W killed PC game renting, the advent of online activation etc. killed the selling of pre-owned pc games.

Despite both of these, the PC market is incredibly healthy. New games are still cheaper than console, with prices dropping faster. Smaller publishers and Indie developers in particular are doing extremely well, with sales creeping up towards what AAA titles on console hit and some completely destroying them.

Pacing Mule · 23-03-2012 8:46pm

Blowfish wrote: »

You are forgetting though that we have evidence available to us of what would happen already.

The advent of CD/DVD R/W killed PC game renting, the advent of online activation etc. killed the selling of pre-owned pc games.

Despite both of these, the PC market is incredibly healthy. New games are still cheaper than console, with prices dropping faster. Smaller publishers and Indie developers in particular are doing extremely well, with sales creeping up towards what AAA titles on console hit and some completely destroying them.

Not forgetting about it at all.

You will see many posts on boards lament the fact that x y or z retailer has an ever decreasing if not non existant pc gamimg section. Even this thread had a few in it about Game. So if you don't have the compulsion or indeed access to good broadband to get digital distribution you have a poor choice offline.

The thing is though that PC's and in particular those capable of running big games are by their nature and their users nature online based - being used by those with access to fast broadband etc. It's not that big of a slice of the market / potential sales that are being lost to digital only sales.

The console market is made up of a different demographic and a lot higher a percentage of users with little / poor or no broadband. A loss of bricks and mortar / physical retailers will impact sales a lot more. Besides that development costs are higher and the publishers sale prices are higher to retailers and indeed to the consumer availing of digital distribution at the moment. A lot of the time the price on Xbox Live / PSN etc is higher than at retail because the publisher prices it there at the full RRP.

As I said in my earlier post I'm not discounting the fact that the publishers could cut prices but the question is how much can they / would they be willing to cut them and would it be enough to make up for the lost sales from those unwilling or unable to embrace digital purchasing of their console games.

Blowfish · 23-03-2012 9:45pm

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

You will see many posts on boards lament the fact that x y or z retailer has an ever decreasing if not non existant pc gamimg section.

Indeed. I've always found that amusing considering cross platform games are more common now than they've ever been. Even going back as little as 10-15 years ago, barely any of the big console titles were available on PC, now a lot of them are.

Pageant Messiah wrote:

Even this thread had a few in it about Game.

Game having a poor PC selection doesn't mean that those games are unavailable for PC though, just that Game isn't stocking them.

Pageant Messiah wrote:

The console market is made up of a different demographic and a lot higher a percentage of users with little / poor or no broadband. A loss of bricks and mortar / physical retailers will impact sales a lot more. Besides that development costs are higher and the publishers sale prices are higher to retailers and indeed to the consumer availing of digital distribution at the moment. A lot of the time the price on Xbox Live / PSN etc is higher than at retail because the publisher prices it there at the full RRP.

Currently, yes, but not for much longer. Broadband speeds are increasing quicker than game sizes are.

Mr Blobby · 23-03-2012 11:17pm

Blowfish wrote: »

Currently, yes, but not for much longer. Broadband speeds are increasing quicker than game sizes are.

Yeah tell that to all the people on 1-3mb broadband ( which is quite high )
It will take a least 3 years for all areas of Ireland to get over 25mb Broadband ( excluding towns/citys ) at a affordable price.
I would prefer download only being a Pc gamer but i just can't see it happening for a long time.

Pacing Mule · 24-03-2012 1:45pm

Blowfish wrote: »

Indeed. I've always found that amusing considering cross platform games are more common now than they've ever been. Even going back as little as 10-15 years ago, barely any of the big console titles were available on PC, now a lot of them are.
Game having a poor PC selection doesn't mean that those games are unavailable for PC though, just that Game isn't stocking them.

But it's not just Game - all games retailers have seen rapidly shrinking space and ranges. If you're a PC gamer without a great broadband service you are very limited in what you can actually buy - which is my point.

Blowfish wrote: »

Currently, yes, but not for much longer. Broadband speeds are increasing quicker than game sizes are.

Which assumes that all console gamers will want to have access to that broadband - this doesn't come hand in hand as a given. Even then there is a large population in rural areas for whom roll out of hi speed broadband is going to be economically unviable. The providers simply won't go there. It also assumes that download caps will be increased etc.

gubbie · 24-03-2012 2:29pm

I was in Game in Mahon Point today. They have a minuscule amount in their "Spring Sale" and they're taking pre orders for the Wii U

Blowfish · 24-03-2012 2:53pm

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

But it's not just Game - all games retailers have seen rapidly shrinking space and ranges. If you're a PC gamer without a great broadband service you are very limited in what you can actually buy - which is my point.

It seems odd to have to point this out again, but amazon, play etc. all sell physical copies which require no better than a dialup connection. Bricks and Mortar PC game selection is indeed shrinking, but that's pretty much irrelevant to the overall availability of PC games and the health of the PC market.

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

Which assumes that all console gamers will want to have access to that broadband - this doesn't come hand in hand as a given. Even then there is a large population in rural areas for whom roll out of hi speed broadband is going to be economically unviable. The providers simply won't go there. It also assumes that download caps will be increased etc.

Not to sound harsh, but do you really think Microsoft/Sony give a crap about the minority of users in areas where broadband is economically unviable? If they reckon they can make more from killing off second hand sales/eliminating the 3rd party bricks and mortar stores than they'll lose from the users in areas with no broadband, they'll push ahead regardless.

NTMK · 24-03-2012 4:03pm

Blowfish wrote: »

Not to sound harsh, but do you really think Microsoft/Sony give a crap about the minority of users in areas where broadband is economically unviable? If they reckon they can make more from killing off second hand sales/eliminating the 3rd party bricks and mortar stores than they'll lose from the users in areas with no broadband, they'll push ahead regardless.

They do when about 1/3 of the install base isnt online (~20 million for microsoft) there is also the issue with strict DL caps that limit the amount of games that can be purchased. why do you think mainstream pc games are still released as physical copies along side dl.

Console makers and devs know that for at least the next generation possibly 2 DL only is a stupid decision.

B&M will eventually die out and online stores(amazon/play) will take over
DL only wont happen until microsoft and sony know that their install base wont take a significant hit

cloud493 · 24-03-2012 4:05pm

This is their last week of being open apparently, last day of trading will be the 31st/1st. Hopefully their might be some super cheap fire sale to snag some bargains.

Pacing Mule · 24-03-2012 5:01pm

Blowfish wrote: »

It seems odd to have to point this out again, but amazon, play etc. all sell physical copies which require no better than a dialup connection. Bricks and Mortar PC game selection is indeed shrinking, but that's pretty much irrelevant to the overall availability of PC games and the health of the PC market.

I don't think it is irrelevant but because you do think so is why you feel it's odd to point it out again.

Again the demographic of the pc market is different - a lot more likely to be online, to purchase online etc.

Blowfish wrote: »

Not to sound harsh, but do you really think Microsoft/Sony give a crap about the minority of users in areas where broadband is economically unviable? If they reckon they can make more from killing off second hand sales/eliminating the 3rd party bricks and mortar stores than they'll lose from the users in areas with no broadband, they'll push ahead regardless.

I don't disagree with that tbh

but I do think that you are underestimating the size of the market comprised of non internet users etc. I also feel that the pre owned markets demise would not lead to the new game sales increases that you would expect.

krudler · 24-03-2012 5:02pm

MagicSean wrote: »

He's right though. If someone comes in with two recently released games to trade in he should question it.

not really, nobody questions why game and gamestop often have "preowned" copies of games that came out the day before. I went into gamestop the day after the MW3 launch and they had preowned copies for a fiver less than the new version, shenanigans I say.

Meesared · 25-03-2012 2:05pm

cloud493 wrote: »

This is their last week of being open apparently, last day of trading will be the 31st/1st. Hopefully their might be some super cheap fire sale to snag some bargains.

Na, I doubt it, theyre in administration now, so theyre fine for a few months, plus 5 days to clear all stock? Not a snowballs hope.

cherryghost · 25-03-2012 3:18pm

Some rumours knocking about GAME closing down very soon in Athlone also.

NTMK · 25-03-2012 3:29pm

cherryghost wrote: »

Some rumours knocking about GAME closing down very soon in Athlone also.

The athlone one is in the new shopping centre isnt it? most shops in there are doing crap and rent is apparently stupidly high. it doesn't surprise me at all that its at risk.

cloud493 · 25-03-2012 8:50pm

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36344733&postcount=4504

Oafley Jones · 25-03-2012 11:41pm

Meesared wrote: »

Na, I doubt it, theyre in administration now, so theyre fine for a few months, plus 5 days to clear all stock? Not a snowballs hope.

Administration grants them a level of protection, but they still have to find money for wages, rent etc.

jill_valentine · 26-03-2012 12:41am

You will see many posts on boards lament the fact that x y or z retailer has an ever decreasing if not non existant pc gamimg section.

But this is not strictly true. My local branch of Game has no less than three browsers full of PC games. The difference is, they're not very good games. The ease of PC piracy and the increase in services like Steam has pulled the guts out of big new PC titles for bricks and mortar stores. They get in big new titles, and those titles sell like crazy for the first week, and then they practically stop dead. That's why PC game prices fall so hard and so quickly. There is almost no mileage in them after the initial release, with only a few exceptions, so stores can end up with shelves full of essentially dead stock that they have to discount a fortnight after it's out and then again the week after and so on.

The PC games that do sell, consistently, are puzzles, mysteries, and point & click hidden object games aimed at older players - older players who don't have high spec gaming machines and aren't comfortable buying online or pirating. Those games are relatively inexpensive to make and they sell for a corresponding price, but they keep selling and then hold that price practically indefinitely. Older players don't look for the latest Mystery of Musgrave Mansion game, they just look for the one they don't have yet.

Now, I don't like the implications of all of that at all, but it was the market which decided the fate of the PC section.

nerd69 · 26-03-2012 3:29am

id imagine the smaller shops will close when their current rent ends the main street shops might last till christmas

nix · 26-03-2012 3:46am

Glad to see the back of them to be honest, the prices they ask for games is just silly..

When you're going to HMV to buy your games 10-15 quid cheaper than a shop that specializes in games, That game shops gonna go bust, also selling second hand games for the same price as a new game is just stupid.

Game.. Good fuckin riddance

26-03-2012 4:04am

nix wrote: »

Glad to see the back of them to be honest, the prices they ask for games is just silly..

When you're going to HMV to buy your games 10-15 quid cheaper than a shop that specializes in games, That game shops gonna go bust, also selling second hand games for the same price as a new game is just stupid.

Game.. Good fuckin riddance

Compared to Gamestop they are quite cheap especially when it comes to preowned games. The problem with HMV is that their prices can vary wildly, in my local they had House of the Dead Overkill for 12.99 for a long time and then a few weeks back the price jumped up to close to 50 euro. Seems to happen quite regular in there with games being rather cheap for weeks at at time and then either disappearing from the shop altogether or being a ridiculous price.

If HMV see the market for games both new and preowned shrinking then they will reduce their floor space accordingly, at least with Game you knew that there would always be games in store. In many HMV's the floor space dedicated to games has been shrinking over the past months, in my local one the shelf space for each console has been considerably reduced and from speaking to a friend who works in there they plan to reduce it even further.

nix · 26-03-2012 4:29am

The only reason I would use game stores these days is to buy pre owned games or picking up a game on the first day of release.

Game have always for the last decade or so, always boosted up their prices of new releases by about 10.00 at least, and then normalised the price a week later, So i always went to HMV or gamestop to compare prices and HMV usually had the best price.

If im looking to buy games which would be hard to find or have been out a long time, i just buy them online, guranteed to find them and for alot cheaper.

In regards to preowned games, Ive noticed they always have the prices way up.. Heck ive even seen games which were brand new cheaper than they were selling them preowned. Thats just so wrong, they should be knocking atleast 15.00 quid off the asking price, not a couple of cents or the same price.

Pacing Mule · 26-03-2012 9:00am

nix wrote: »

Glad to see the back of them to be honest, the prices they ask for games is just silly..

When you're going to HMV to buy your games 10-15 quid cheaper than a shop that specializes in games, That game shops gonna go bust, also selling second hand games for the same price as a new game is just stupid.

Game.. Good fuckin riddance

The price they were asking is still not what they should have been though.

HMV are in nearly as much trouble as Game primarily because they have been selling their games and some other media at unsustainable prices. Game as the specialist retailer have nowhere to subsidise loss leading / cheaper than they should be new games other than the pre owned section. Not that I am defending pre owned games being dearer than new games but I can see how it happens.

Notorious · 26-03-2012 12:21pm

nix wrote: »

When you're going to HMV to buy your games 10-15 quid cheaper than a shop that specializes in games, That game shops gonna go bust, also selling second hand games for the same price as a new game is just stupid..... Game have always for the last decade or so, always boosted up their prices of new releases by about 10.00 at least, and then normalised the price a week later, So i always went to HMV or gamestop to compare prices and HMV usually had the best price.

Right, I'm gonna call you out on this one (not as a personal attack), because you don't seem to know what you're talking about. I work in an area that has Game, HMV and Gamestop, and I am constantly comparing prices between all three.

Game don't bump up the prices of new releases by €10, for starters. HMV usually undercut Game's price by €5 and Gamestop are usually either in the middle or the same as Game. Now that Game aren't stocking new releases, HMV have started charging €50 for new releases as opposed to the €45 they charged before. Saying all of that, HMV charge more of a premium than Game on Xbox live points and memberships (2100 points cost €22.50 in Game and €25 in HMV).

They also don't sell new releases and their pre-owned equivalents for the same price. Uncharted 3 was €5 cheaper pre-owned when the game was released. When it comes to buying pre-owned games or trading-in games, I never find that one store is offering constantly better prices - you find better deals in each store.

Prices are never 'normalised' - sometimes Game would put a new release on sale a few weeks after its been released, but usually after a week or so at a reduced price, it gets bumped back up to the full retail price.

And finally....

nix wrote:

Glad to see the back of them to be honest, the prices they ask for games is just silly..

This is a bad way to be thinking. It's all about competition. With Game out of the equation that means HMV will probably charge €50 for a new xbox release since they won't have to compete with another store in the area. So that's bad news for consumers, regardless of which store they prefer to do their business in.

Also, think about all of the employees that will be out of a job if/when Game close their doors. I'm sure you're not glad that they face unemployment.

Oafley Jones · 26-03-2012 1:26pm

Almost half of the 609 UK stores didn't open today according to MCVUK, it didn't mention anything about any other locations.

LookingFor · 26-03-2012 1:32pm

It sounds like a general notice went out not to open and to wait for news post-administration, but it also sounds like a lot of stores didn't get that.

GAME in blanch was open this morning. Notice about closures only starting going out after administration was announced. Will be interesting to see what stores here in Ireland are closing, hopefully not too many.

Krieg · 26-03-2012 1:39pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17512143

Game Group goes into administration

The group employs about 10,000 staff at its 1,300 stores, 609 of which are in the UK and Ireland.

The administrators from PricewaterhouseCoopers said that the retailer had suffered from high fixed costs and an ambitious international expansion.

Its business has been hit by competition from online-only retailers.

"Despite these challenges, we believe that there is room for a specialist game retailer in the territories in which it operates, including its biggest one, the UK," said one of the administrators, Mike Jervis.

"As a result, we are hopeful that a going concern sale of the business is achievable."

Store locations

UK and Ireland - 609
France - 197
Spain and Portugal - 288
Sweden, Norway and Denmark - 67
Australia - 95
Czech Republic - 31
Game Group employs 385 staff at its headquarters in Basingstoke in Hampshire, and about 5,100 in its stores in the UK and Ireland.

About another 5,000 staff are employed at Game's other stores, which are located in France, Spain, Portugal, the Czech Republic, Scandinavia and Australia.

"This decision is taken after careful consideration and ceaseless interrogation of every possible alternative," Game Group said.

The stores operate under the Game brand, as well as Gamestation.

The company asked for its shares to be suspended last Wednesday and announced it was planning to call in administrators.

It followed confirmation that some suppliers had stopped doing business with the retailer.

wilser · 26-03-2012 1:54pm

Game in hamleys Dundrum and Dundrum sc closed

GAME in serious trouble

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