Abortion Discussion

Turtwig · 10-07-2013 2:55pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

So you think it would be "funny" to see peaceful protestors attacked as well as wishing violence on them for peacefully protesting.

bumper234 wrote: »

Again stop ****ing twisting words to fit your own sick agenda. Show me where i said i think it would be funny to see PEACEFUL protesters attacked as well as wishing violence on them for peacefully protesting.

Please drop this discussion as ye're struggling it keep it civil.
Thanks,

IT-Guy · 10-07-2013 2:56pm

old hippy wrote: »

Straw men argument is clutching at straws. :rolleyes:

I'd suggest you read back through BB's posts in the older thread before commenting here, no straw men, all hypothetical situations outlined by BB.

Mark Hamill · 10-07-2013 2:57pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

.

Your first link is Australia and the second is the Daily Mail, so neither relevant to this discussion about what does happen in Ireland.

But lets put aside their sources for a moment and ask the more obvious question:
If, as the DM references says, there is a chance that the NHS could abort a pregnancy and leave the viable foetus to die, then maybe we should ensure that women in Ireland don't have to go abroad for abortions and get better care here in Ireland?

old hippy · 10-07-2013 2:58pm

IT-Guy wrote: »

I'd suggest you read back through BB's posts in the older thread before commenting here, no straw men, all hypothetical situations outlined by BB.

Some very outlandish and far fetched hypotheticals, to be sure

Mark Hamill · 10-07-2013 2:59pm

bumper234 wrote: »

Not really.

BB has used those scenarios as to why a woman might "choose" to have an abortion:eek:

IT-Guy wrote: »

I'd suggest you read back through BB's posts in the older thread before commenting here, no straw men, all hypothetical situations outlined by BB.

I think that old hippy was calling BB's arguments strawmen, not IT-Guy's

Turtwig · 10-07-2013 3:01pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

.
<botched abortions>

Yep, these happen and will probably happen in Ireland too - if they haven't already! Ireland currently doesn't actually keep statistics on abortions. We could always attempt to clarify for the law for what should be the procedure when these things happen but given the political mess of the debate I doubt that's going to happen.

It's very unfortunate and it's sincerely hoped that the foetus don't suffer but as I said regarding laws, no procedure is perfect. We just hope that the imperfect procedures are kept to an absolute minimum.

A key point that needs to be noted here is that it stands to reason that a woman with compromised health is more likely to have a botched abortion than a woman in good health. Botched abortions aren't in my opinion anyway a valid reason to deny access of abortion to everyone.

FWIW, quoting the dailymail as a source isn't really advisable.

Zombrex · 10-07-2013 3:03pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We have the NHS in Ireland now????

Even if we were the NHS, these reports are criticising this practice.

Its like if I asked BB where did he get the idea that the government supports beating up old people and he produced a report by the government criticising assaults against old people.

:rolleyes:

robindch · 10-07-2013 3:15pm

bumper234 wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

I hope and presume that you're referring to "legal consequences" -- anything other than that is considered unhelpful and may well be subject to moderator action.

Oh of course sir

If the weather weren't so nice today, you'd have been carded for that reply.

bumper234 · 10-07-2013 3:19pm

robindch wrote: »

If the weather weren't so nice today, you'd have been carded for that reply.

My apologies won't happen again

Brown Bomber · 10-07-2013 3:36pm

28064212 wrote: »

Caesarean or delivery would be my guess. Again, the doctors have the responsibility to do everything they can to save the child. Which has been explained to you multiple times. So instead of asking leading questions and posing hypotheticals that change from post to post, why don't you actually state what you think is going to happen, and what you have a problem with?

Excuse my ignorance, but what then is the actual difference between the delivery of a 24 week old premature baby and an abortion at 24 weeks in Ireland (to be)?.

bumper234 · 10-07-2013 3:37pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, but what then is the actual difference between the delivery of a 24 week old premature baby and an abortion at 24 weeks in Ireland (to be)?.

Why do you continue to answer questions with questions?

He asked

why don't you actually state what you think is going to happen, and what you have a problem with?

Why not answer that in plain English instead of yet again avoiding the question?

10-07-2013 3:39pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, but what then is the actual difference between the delivery of a 24 week old premature baby and an abortion at 24 weeks in Ireland (to be)?.

If the baby is viable? None. The reason for the delivery may change.

lazygal · 10-07-2013 3:42pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, but what then is the actual difference between the delivery of a 24 week old premature baby and an abortion at 24 weeks in Ireland (to be)?.

I actually can't be arsed explaining this again. Go and read my explanations on the other thread.

Zombrex · 10-07-2013 3:42pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, but what then is the actual difference between the delivery of a 24 week old premature baby and an abortion at 24 weeks in Ireland (to be)?.

Nothing if the abortion is carried out through induced delivery.

You seem to know very little about pregnancy, labour or abortion. I hope you can appreciate that it is not really the responsibility of people on this forum to educate you to the particulars before engage in the debate.

Maybe read up on what abortion is, what the various methods of abortion are, which are similar to labour/delivery etc. You might have less questions after doing that and things might be clearer to you. At the moment you seem to have some very odd ideas about what an abortion actually is, how it relates to pregnancy and labour and what happens to the fetus involved.

Turtwig · 10-07-2013 3:44pm

lazygal wrote: »

I actually can't be arsed explaining this again. Go and read my explanations on the other thread.

There's 9,881 posts for him to search through. It'd be a lot easier if you just quoted it again or linked to it.

Brown Bomber · 10-07-2013 3:44pm

bumper234 wrote: »

Not really.

BB has used those scenarios as to why a woman might "choose" to have an abortion:eek:

Clearly you are not following.

I was using the scenarios to point out situations when the right to "choose" to end the life of your unborn child for selfish and/or frivolous reasons is morally questionable. Morally repugnant IMO.

While these examples wouldn't be typical they are not so extraordinary so as to be discounted. Yet few attempted to give their opinions as I believe it would expose the lack of compassion for the unborn child.

It was never a question of banning abortion per se but to acknowledge that these "choices" we all make have consequences and while we can support a person's right to "choose" it doesn't mean we have to dogmatically support every "choice" they make.

bumper234 · 10-07-2013 3:45pm

Jernal wrote: »

There's 9,881 posts for him to search through. It'd be a lot easier if you just quoted it again or linked to it.

He could narrow that down by searching by person

Akrasia · 10-07-2013 3:46pm

old hippy wrote: »

Some very outlandish and far fetched hypotheticals, to be sure

I think the pro_choice side can come up with some hypotheticals of our own.

Lets say for example, somehow a bunch of devil worshipping woodland critters had convinced a jewish boy to become host to the anti-christ and the only way to stop the apocolypse is for some orphan mountain lion cubs to learn how to perform abortions and remove the antichrist foetus just in time for Santa to slaughter all the satan worshipping critters with a shotgun and squash the anti-christ foetus with a sledge hammer.

Under this scenario, would an abortion be acceptable?

plot of south park's woodland critter christmas episode, one of the funniest episodes they've made -- hail satan!

Zombrex · 10-07-2013 3:49pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Yet few attempted to give their opinions as I believe it would expose the lack of compassion for the unborn child.

It is the other way around.

If you have parents who are going to abort you at 7 months so they can go on holidays you are probably better off not being born.

Bannasidhe · 10-07-2013 3:56pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Clearly you are not following.

I was using the scenarios to point out situations when the right to "choose" to end the life of your unborn child for selfish and/or frivolous reasons is morally questionable. Morally repugnant IMO.

While these examples wouldn't be typical they are not so extraordinary so as to be discounted. Yet few attempted to give their opinions as I believe it would expose the lack of compassion for the unborn child.

It was never a question of banning abortion per se but to acknowledge that these "choices" we all make have consequences and while we can support a person's right to "choose" it doesn't mean we have to dogmatically support every "choice" they make.

Would you agree it is morally repugnant to buy iPads and other expensive consumer goods for children under ten when there are other children starving to death therefore we should enact legislation which prohibits such extravagance and insist that money be used to sponsor a child whose life is in danger from hunger or do you think people have the right to choose how they spend their own money?

Turtwig · 10-07-2013 3:57pm

bumper234 wrote: »

He could narrow that down by searching by person

Still unfair burden. It's not constructive to a discussion to just tell someone "look it up on google" "search for it yourself" etc.

Brown Bomber · 10-07-2013 3:58pm

28064212 wrote: »

If the baby is viable? None. The reason for the delivery may change.

OK. Thanks again for your patience on this. I am still trying to get my head around it.

So if what you are saying is correct then aborted Irish babies should have the same survival rates as premature babies of the same age? Which is a 50% chance in the UK. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/05/survival-rates-premature-babies-rise

How is this effective? If every second abortion results in an unintentionally delivered premature baby?

If I was suicidal because I was pregnant then I am definitely going to be suicidal if I know there is a child out there in the world who I tried to have eliminated and who quite possibly has a severe disability due to my "choice"

Is there any evidence that far more brutal and effective methods of abortion won't be used as a regular procedure in Ireland than a C section or induced labour?

Brown Bomber · 10-07-2013 4:01pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would you agree it is morally repugnant to buy iPads and other expensive consumer goods for children under ten when there are other children starving to death therefore we should enact legislation which prohibits such extravagance and insist that money be used to sponsor a child whose life is in danger from hunger or do you think people have the right to choose how they spend their own money?

It is morally repugnant. However, people are free to carry out morally repugnant actions (within reason).

Mark Hamill · 10-07-2013 4:03pm

Jernal wrote: »

There's 9,881 posts for him to search through. It'd be a lot easier if you just quoted it again or linked to it.

It would be a lot easier if he read it the first 10 times it was explained to him. The last few pages of the other thread is various people explaining it to him. Brown Bomber has given no indication that he has paid any attention so far, so why should lazygal go through the hassle of explaining it again?

bumper234 · 10-07-2013 4:03pm

Jernal wrote: »

Still unfair burden. It's not constructive to a discussion to just tell someone "look it up on google" "search for it yourself" etc.

Sorry but BB said that several times in the last thread as did eirranbear

Bannasidhe · 10-07-2013 4:03pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It is morally repugnant. However, people are free to carry out morally repugnant actions (within reason).

So in some situations people have a choice as to whether they can do something other's may find morally repugnant but not in others?

old hippy · 10-07-2013 4:08pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It is morally repugnant. However, people are free to carry out morally repugnant actions (within reason).

Within your boundaries, you mean?

Now that really is... repugnant.

Zombrex · 10-07-2013 4:11pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

How is this effective? If every second abortion results in an unintentionally delivered premature baby?

None of them are still in the mother's womb, so it seems that they are 100% effective.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

If I was suicidal because I was pregnant then I am definitely going to be suicidal if I know there is a child out there in the world who I tried to have eliminated and who quite possibly has a severe disability due to my "choice"

So?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Is there any evidence that far more brutal and effective methods of abortion won't be used as a regular procedure in Ireland than a C section or induced labour?

You want evidence that something you just made up won't happen?

10-07-2013 4:11pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

OK. Thanks again for your patience on this. I am still trying to get my head around it.

So if what you are saying is correct then aborted Irish babies should have the same survival rates as premature babies of the same age? Which is a 50% chance in the UK. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/05/survival-rates-premature-babies-rise

How is this effective? If every second abortion results in an unintentionally delivered premature baby?

Every second abortion past the point of viability. Which, as oldrnwisr has demonstrated, is a very rare occurrence. Throw in the requirement of suicidal intentions, and I very much doubt there'd be one in a year in Ireland.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

If I was suicidal because I was pregnant then I am definitely going to be suicidal if I know there is a child out there in the world who I tried to have eliminated and who quite possibly has a severe disability due to my "choice"

Abortion has to be both requested by the mother, and determined as a suitable treatment by psychiatrists. It's not a case of a pregnant woman showing up and saying "I'm suicidal" automatically receiving an abortion, regardless of what the best treatment for her is

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Is there any evidence that far more brutal and effective methods of abortion won't be used as a regular procedure in Ireland than a C section or induced labour?

It's your hypothesis, you are required to support it

Mr. CooL ICE · 10-07-2013 4:13pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

If I was suicidal because I was pregnant then I am definitely going to be suicidal if I know there is a child out there in the world who I tried to have eliminated and who quite possibly has a severe disability due to my "choice"

You are neither a woman who is able to get pregnant, nor are you suicidal. Going by this paragraph alone, I don't think you have the faintest grasp of mental health issues to make statements about how suicidal pregnant women feel.

MagicMarker · 10-07-2013 4:13pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It is morally repugnant. However, people are free to carry out morally repugnant actions (within reason).

Are you wearing shoes that are more expensive than other shoes? How dare you do such a morally repugnant thing when there are shoeless people in the world. You repulse me.

oldrnwisr · 10-07-2013 4:19pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

OK. Thanks again for your patience on this. I am still trying to get my head around it.

So if what you are saying is correct then aborted Irish babies should have the same survival rates as premature babies of the same age? Which is a 50% chance in the UK. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/05/survival-rates-premature-babies-rise

How is this effective? If every second abortion results in an unintentionally delivered premature baby?

If I was suicidal because I was pregnant then I am definitely going to be suicidal if I know there is a child out there in the world who I tried to have eliminated and who quite possibly has a severe disability due to my "choice"

Is there any evidence that far more brutal and effective methods of abortion won't be used as a regular procedure in Ireland than a C section or induced labour?

OK, I'll give it a shot.

First of all, as I posted in the previous thread approximately 91% of all abortions are performed (in the UK) in the first trimester. Approximately 1% of all abortions are performed over 20 weeks. Any abortions performed after 24 weeks (just 147 of them in 2010) were performed due to severe disabilities in the foetus. So you are dealing with a situation which is rarefied to the point of being completely unrepresentative and thus irrelevant to the debate at large.

Secondly, what makes you think that, if pregnancy (i.e. the realisation of becoming pregnant) is the trigger for suicidality, that the woman would then wait for 16-20 weeks before suddenly seeking an abortion. It would make more sense that a woman who becomes suicidal due to being pregnant would seek an abortion much earlier, at a point when questions around viability, pain, technique become redundant or academic.

Finally, let's say for example that a woman does suddenly become suicidal around 24 weeks due to her pregnancy. Medical science has advanced to the point that doctors can assess the viability of a foetus before selecting a procedure, making this talk about IDX and such largely irrelevant. But then other posters have already explained this to you.

You seem determined at this point to focus on situations which are unrepresentative of abortions in general and scare stories publicised by lowbrow tabloids. You seem to be doing your best to introduce as many logical fallacies into your argument as possible including appeals to fear, emotion, biased sample and of course, ad hominem tu quoque.

Are there any serious concerns you have with the legislation actually being tabled that maybe you'd like to discuss instead?

Brown Bomber · 10-07-2013 4:22pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So in some situations people have a choice as to whether they can do something other's may find morally repugnant but not in others?

Yes as in a father on Christmas Eve may "choose" to take the money he had saved for his children's Christmas presents and gamble it away in the bookies. He may not "choose" to beat them on Christmas morning because they are upset.

Brown Bomber · 10-07-2013 4:27pm

old hippy wrote: »

Within your boundaries, you mean?

Now that really is... repugnant.

No. Within the law.

Zombrex · 10-07-2013 4:27pm

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Are there any serious concerns you have with the legislation actually being tabled that maybe you'd like to discuss instead?

The flawed point he is spectacularly not making is that he thinks we want to allow suicidal women to have abortions so that they kill the baby and no longer are suicidal by the existence of the child. Therefore the purpose of these new laws is to allow suicidal women to kill their foetuses in order to no longer be suicidal. If the foetus survives the procedure it must logically be killed because the whole point of all this is to kill the child, not simply remove it from the womb, so that it doesn't exist any more so the woman is no longer suicidal by its existence.

That is a stupid deeply flawed view of this whole debate.

But BY GOD this discussion would move much faster if he just stated that was his view of this legislation, rather than rather foolishly trying to get us to realize that this is the point of the legislation by asking all these rhetorical questions.

Oh and btw BB that isn't the point of this legislation.

Sarky · 10-07-2013 4:33pm

Jaysus, is that where he was heading? He couldn't have taken a more scenic route.

Brown Bomber · 10-07-2013 4:40pm

28064212 wrote: »

Every second abortion past the point of viability. Which, as oldrnwisr has demonstrated, is a very rare occurrence. Throw in the requirement of suicidal intentions, and I very much doubt there'd be one in a year in Ireland.

That is an important distinction you've made.

In the uk in 2011 close to 3,000 babies were terminated at 20 weeks or over. This is the same as number of people who died from the combined 9
11 attacks.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/may/24/abortion-statistics-england-wales

This is not an insignificant number.

28064212 wrote: »

Abortion has to be both requested by the mother, and determined as a suitable treatment by psychiatrists. It's not a case of a pregnant woman showing up and saying "I'm suicidal" automatically receiving an abortion, regardless of what the best treatment for her is

Isn't it? What scientific tests take place to prove she is suicidal?

28064212 wrote: »

It's your hypothesis, you are required to support it

Is there any reason to believe that the surgical methods of abortion that take place in all other "civilised" countries won't be used here?

oldrnwisr · 10-07-2013 4:43pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

How is this effective? If every second abortion results in an unintentionally delivered premature baby?

Just one more thing...

I imagine, though someone can correct me on this, that should the situation arise that a woman who sought an abortion was in a position that the foetus was viable, that said delivered baby would be taken into state care (at least temporarily)?

Now, let's have a quick look at the numbers of this shall we?

In 2010, 4402 Irish women travelled to the UK for an abortion. Now if, instead of relying on this number we use the UK total less Ireland (approximately 185,000) and scale back for populations, we could estimate that in a UK style system in this country there would be approximately 12,350 abortions each year with approx. 98% of these being for mental health reasons. Now, as it stands, the number of Irish women currently seeking abortions at over 20 weeks (in 2010) is 109 or approx. 2%. Therefore, under a UK-style system in Ireland there would be approx. 250 abortions performed where viability is in play. If, by your estimate, that every second abortion results in an unintentional delivery, then that would mean 125 additional children being put into state care.

Since there were 2287 care orders granted by courts in this country in 2011 alone, I can't see this being a problem for the HSE to be honest. So to answer your question, is it effective? Yes.

loveisdivine · 10-07-2013 4:44pm

Anybody else watching the live feed? Some very good points being made, specifically about why an obstetrician would be qualified to assess suicidal feelings.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0710/461615-live-abortion-legislation/

Brown Bomber · 10-07-2013 4:48pm

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Just one more thing...

I imagine, though someone can correct me on this, that should the situation arise that a woman who sought an abortion was in a position that the foetus was viable, that said delivered baby would be taken into state care (at least temporarily)?

Now, let's have a quick look at the numbers of this shall we?

In 2010, 4402 Irish women travelled to the UK for an abortion. Now if, instead of relying on this number we use the UK total less Ireland (approximately 185,000) and scale back for populations, we could estimate that in a UK style system in this country there would be approximately 12,350 abortions each year with approx. 98% of these being for mental health reasons. Now, as it stands, the number of Irish women currently seeking abortions at over 20 weeks (in 2010) is 109 or approx. 2%. Therefore, under a UK-style system in Ireland there would be approx. 250 abortions performed where viability is in play. If, by your estimate, that every second abortion results in an unintentional delivery, then that would mean 125 additional children being put into state care.

Since there were 2287 care orders granted by courts in this country in 2011 alone, I can't see this being a problem for the HSE to be honest. So to answer your question, is it effective? Yes.

125 children with a high proportion having severe disabilities for the rest of their lives. Disabilities that in most if not all cases could have been avoided and these children could have been born healthily and lived full and healthy lives - education, career, marriage, kids etc.

Can you not see the dilemma here?

Bannasidhe · 10-07-2013 4:50pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Yes as in a father on Christmas Eve may "choose" to take the money he had saved for his children's Christmas presents and gamble it away in the bookies. He may not "choose" to beat them on Christmas morning because they are upset.

So it is ok if this hypothetical father chooses to buy his children expensive goods rather than choosing to save the lives of starving children who he just saw on the news along with appeals for donations?

10-07-2013 4:50pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

That is an important distinction you've made.

In the uk in 2011 close to 3,000 babies were terminated at 20 weeks or over. This is the same as number of people who died from the combined 9
11 attacks.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/may/24/abortion-statistics-england-wales

This is not an insignificant number.

Under what grounds did the abortions occur? You should know, they've been posted multiple times

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Isn't it? What scientific tests take place to prove she is suicidal?

So you think she shows up, says "I'm suicidal", and they abort her baby on the spot? Don't ask her whether, say, she wants to keep the baby? Or why she's suicidal? Or whether there are other options?

And there are already places in the medical set-up where psychiatrists determine suicidal intention.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Is there any reason to believe that the surgical methods of abortion that take place in all other "civilised" countries won't be used here?

Given that they don't have our 8th amendment, no, it's not worth even a cursory examination, never mind the hundred posts you've made on it.

All the while, you continue to fail to state what you think is going to happen, and what you have a problem with

oldrnwisr · 10-07-2013 4:50pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

125 children with a high proportion having severe disabilities for the rest of their lives. Disabilities that in most if not all cases could have been avoided and these children could have been born healthily and lived full and healthy lives - education, career, marriage, kids etc.

Can you not see the dilemma here?

Sorry BB, maybe you've linked to this previously but could you please substantiate the claim I've highlighted?

Brown Bomber · 10-07-2013 4:55pm

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Sorry BB, maybe you've linked to this previously but could you please substantiate the claim I've highlighted?

I'd be glad to oblige as I appreciate your civility.

However, although an extremely premature baby's chances of survival have risen, the same research also found the proportion of such infants who experience severe disability as a result has not changed. That stood at 18% in 1995 and was 19% in 2006, according to the research.

"Our findings show that more babies now survive being born too soon than ever before, which is testament to the highly-skilled and dedicated staff in our neonatal services", said Professor Neil Marlow, an MRC-funded academic at University College London's Institute for Women's Health and a co-author of both papers. "But as the number of children that survive pre-term birth continues to rise, so will the number who experience disability throughout their lives. This is likely to have an impact on the demand for health, education and social care services."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/05/survival-rates-premature-babies-rise

Mark Hamill · 10-07-2013 4:58pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

That is an important distinction you've made.

In the uk in 2011 close to 3,000 babies were terminated at 20 weeks or over. This is the same as number of people who died from the combined 9
11 attacks.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/may/24/abortion-statistics-england-wales

This is not an insignificant number.

It is actually, when you convert it to percentage. 3000 abortions, out of 196,082, is 1.53%. You've been given the 1-2% prevalence rate for post-20 week abortions before (and its been explained that most of these abortions are on malformed or sick foetuses who weren't guaranteed any quality of life, if they survived). Emotively comparing the number to a terrorist attack is dishonest Brown Bomber, and shows that you are still ignoring every argument and piece of data presented to you.

Brown Bomber · 10-07-2013 5:00pm

28064212 wrote: »

Under what grounds did the abortions occur? You should know, they've been posted multiple times

And on what grounds should a 20 week plus abortion not take place in Ireland on request from a "suicidal" mother?

28064212 wrote: »

So you think she shows up, says "I'm suicidal", and they abort her baby on the spot? Don't ask her whether, say, she wants to keep the baby? Or why she's suicidal? Or whether there are other options?

And there are already places in the medical set-up where psychiatrists determine suicidal intention.

I assume by your failure to answer the question directly that there are in fact NO scientific tests that will take place to determine if a mother is suicidal or faking it?

28064212 wrote: »

Given that they don't have our 8th amendment, no, it's not worth even a cursory examination, never mind the hundred posts you've made on it.

All the while, you continue to fail to state what you think is going to happen, and what you have a problem with

Does the 8th amendment prohibit specific methods of abortion? Could you specify? If not, what is the reason that the UK's abortion methods won't be available here?

===

I don't know what is going to happen.

What I would like to see happen is no abortions beyond the point where foetal pain is a distinct possibility, so 18 weeks+. I would like to see a requirement where people who want to abort their babies first receive counselling and are fully aware of the implications of their actions. I would also like to see random investigations into the people who claimed "suicide" as to their actual mental health, in the manner of people who claim disability allowances receive. I would like to see the more barbaric forms of abortion outlawed. I would like to see that women who do get abortions not be stigmatised.

All of the above excludes extreme cases.

oldrnwisr · 10-07-2013 5:07pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'd be glad to oblige as I appreciate your civility.

However, although an extremely premature baby's chances of survival have risen, the same research also found the proportion of such infants who experience severe disability as a result has not changed. That stood at 18% in 1995 and was 19% in 2006, according to the research.

"Our findings show that more babies now survive being born too soon than ever before, which is testament to the highly-skilled and dedicated staff in our neonatal services", said Professor Neil Marlow, an MRC-funded academic at University College London's Institute for Women's Health and a co-author of both papers. "But as the number of children that survive pre-term birth continues to rise, so will the number who experience disability throughout their lives. This is likely to have an impact on the demand for health, education and social care services."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/05/survival-rates-premature-babies-rise

Thank you for that, BB.

While I'm not sure, having read the paper abstracts that the datasets are entirely comparable (i.e. premature birth is a medical emergency vs. a planned medical procedure) I do take your point about an increased risk of developmental problems due to the gestational age.

However, there are still three problems from my perspective. Firstly, a foetus which is viable but born with some developmental problems is still alive, that's something to be thankful for. Secondly, we don't have any data regarding viability of abortions performed in these periods, so we don't know how many, if any, could have been viable. Finally, the possible viability and risk of disability of the foetus must still be weighed against the risk to the health and life of the mother.

Mark Hamill · 10-07-2013 5:12pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I assume by your failure to answer the question directly that there are in fact NO scientific tests that will take place to determine if a mother is suicidal or faking it?

A quick google of the suicide test will give various methods for testing, Brown Bomber (Columbia Suicide Severity Rating Scale, The kessler psychological distress scale (k10), Beck Scale for Suicide Ideation® (BSS®) etc.)
Maybe you should do a bit of leg work and actually look up about these issues before making such uninformed claims?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Does the 8th amendment prohibit specific methods of abortion? Could you specify? If not, what is the reason that the UK's abortion methods won't be available here?

Have you tried reading it yourself?
The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

10-07-2013 5:14pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

And on what grounds should a 20 week plus abortion not take place in Ireland on request from a "suicidal" mother?

Given you've put quotes around suicidal, one of the grounds would be "faking it". Another would be if a psychiatrist determined it would not be a suitable treatment

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I assume by your failure to answer the question directly that there are in fact NO scientific tests that will take place to determine if a mother is suicidal or faking it?

Once again, you have not read the post that you requested. Psychiatry is a science, btw.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Does the 8th amendment prohibit specific methods of abortion? Could you specify? If not, what is the reason that the UK's abortion methods won't be available here?

8th amendment protects the right to life of the child. A specific method of abortion that infringes on that right would be prohibited

Delirium · 10-07-2013 5:17pm

@Brown Bomber are you concerned that all suicidal people may be faking it or is that suspicion only aimed at pregnant women?

Abortion Discussion

Comments