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Batman v Superman *spoilers from post 2434*

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    #2672
    Ben Gadot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭Ben Gadot


    Sad Professor wrote: »
    David Goyer in 2005:



    http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/10-years-ago-david-goyer-said-batman-v-superman-was-a-last-gasp-franchise-idea-like-freddy-vs-jason-20160330

    I don't think that is quite in context. Goyer was knee deep in working with Nolan at the time and was probably explaining why Batman was rebooted.

    The Batman -v- Superman planned at the time, helmed by Wolfgang Pieterson, would have been a quasi continuation of the Burton/Schumacher/Donner worlds which were dead in the water.


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    #2673
    Ben Gadot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭Ben Gadot


    I've a genuine question for those unhappy with the serious tone of the film.

    What kind of levity do people think could have placed into a story taking inspiration from the likes of Death of Superman, Death in the Family, and The Dark Knight Returns?

    I own all 3 and while it's been awhile since I read them, there's not a whole lot of levity to counteract the "joylessness" of the stories.

    In fact, the only thing anywhere near close to levity in the Dark Knight Returns is just how much of a horrible fcuker Bruce is to his "victims", ironic given the criticism of how cruel Bruce is in BVS.


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    #2674
    Nervous Wreck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,115 ✭✭✭✭Nervous Wreck


    Ben Gadot wrote: »
    I've a genuine question for those unhappy with the serious tone of the film.

    What kind of levity do people think could have placed into a story taking inspiration from the likes of Death of Superman, Death in the Family, and The Dark Knight Returns?

    I own all 3 and while it's been awhile since I read them, there's not a whole lot of levity to counteract the "joylessness" of the stories.

    In fact, the only thing anywhere near close to levity in the Dark Knight Returns is just how much of a horrible fcuker Bruce is to his "victims", ironic given the criticism of how cruel Bruce is in BVS.

    Well firstly, why on earth would they make a movie that draws inspiration from THREE different books, and then ensure that they're the three most grim books they could find (bit hyperbolic, but there you go). They were in no way tied to doing that and they almost hamstrung themselves by doing so.

    Secondly, it's not so much about levity as it is joylessness. There is a moment in the final battle where Wonder Woman seems in her element, completely enjoying the fight. This is the only point of the entire 150-ish minutes where anyone seems in any way happy. Do we really need a film where no one is happy at all? It's depressing and sets an awful tone for a film, especially one that involves Superman, the supposed symbol of hope for the world.

    It's not about having jokes every 30 seconds, it's more about not purposely creating a film that excludes joy, happiness and hope; all of the things that a superhero is supposed to protect...


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    #2675
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,939 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Ben Gadot wrote: »
    I've a genuine question for those unhappy with the serious tone of the film.

    What kind of levity do people think could have placed into a story taking inspiration from the likes of Death of Superman, Death in the Family, and The Dark Knight Returns?

    Why do films require "levity" anyway?

    WTF is wrong with a "serious tone"?

    I HATE it when a director tries to shoehorn some bullshit comedy into a scene where it either falls flat, makes me roll my eyes, or ruins it completely.


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    #2676
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,255 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Ben Gadot wrote: »
    I've a genuine question for those unhappy with the serious tone of the film.

    What kind of levity do people think could have placed into a story taking inspiration from the likes of Death of Superman, Death in the Family, and The Dark Knight Returns?

    I own all 3 and while it's been awhile since I read them, there's not a whole lot of levity to counteract the "joylessness" of the stories.

    In fact, the only thing anywhere near close to levity in the Dark Knight Returns is just how much of a horrible fcuker Bruce is to his "victims", ironic given the criticism of how cruel Bruce is in BVS.

    I don't think anyone's necessarily unhappy with the serious tone of the film. If anything it's refreshing to have a change in tone from the Marvel films.

    The serious tone of the film is way down in the list of complaints most people have.

    That being said, Superman is supposed to be the antithesis of Batman's character. The day to Batman's night, as pointed out in the film. Bar the bathtub scene with Lois, Clark/Superman is just miserable throughout the film. It would have been nice characterisation to show the contrast between them, even just in the clips of Superman saving random people. Not overly necessary to the film, just would have been nice to see.


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    #2677
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Ben Gadot wrote: »
    I've a genuine question for those unhappy with the serious tone of the film.

    What kind of levity do people think could have placed into a story taking inspiration from the likes of Death of Superman, Death in the Family, and The Dark Knight Returns?

    I own all 3 and while it's been awhile since I read them, there's not a whole lot of levity to counteract the "joylessness" of the stories.

    In fact, the only thing anywhere near close to levity in the Dark Knight Returns is just how much of a horrible fcuker Bruce is to his "victims", ironic given the criticism of how cruel Bruce is in BVS.

    I've never read any DC material, let alone those this movie took inspiration, and I don't mind a serious tone. The Dark Knight trilogy is quite dark and brooding but it managed to strike a balance where there is humour and levity without being out of place. For example the Christian Bale's playboy version of Bruce isn't laugh out loud hilarious but it's a nice wink to the audience that also shows us how dedicated Bruce is to Batman. It's unfortunate that in BvS we don't get to see that side of Affleck's Bruce in this except for a very brief moment in which he pretends he's had too much to drink.

    As I mentioned earlier Jeremy Irons has some funny lines as Alfred but they're mostly little asides to himself and I can see why because I don't Affleck's Bruce/Batman cracks a smile once in this film (open to correction). That may work for some but I found it hard to get behind someone so dour. The film is soooo dark, both literally and tonally, yet the plot and the writing are so messy and over-the-top I just don't think they match up. Superman's struggled to wield the spear and get to Doomsday before he himself gives out should be fairly epic but when it's preceded by Lois throwing the spear away only to go after it again, nearly drown so Superman has to rescue her and then he also nearly drowns trying to get it, it completely took me out of the experience. There's enough drama in Superman having fight against his own weakness for one moment without having to throw in unnecessary threat that is fairly contrived in the first place.

    In summary I don't have a problem with a dark, serious, brooding superhero film but you have to have to story and writing to back it up and, for me, this doesn't and therefore I think they would have been better trying to make it lighter and focus on striking a good balance between light and dark.


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    #2678
    shootermacg
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    Penn wrote: »
    That being said, Superman is supposed to be the antithesis of Batman's character. The day to Batman's night, as pointed out in the film. Bar the bathtub scene with Lois, Clark/Superman is just miserable throughout the film. It would have been nice characterisation to show the contrast between them, even just in the clips of Superman saving random people. Not overly necessary to the film, just would have been nice to see.
    Go away and read some comics that weren't written in the 1980's. Plenty of material where superman snaps and makes batman look like a boy-scout.

    I prefer my movies to have some substance, not cater to my childhood one dimensional views..which I have long since thrown along with all the other toys.

    "He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."

    Nietzsche


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    #2679
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Well, someone just quoted Nietzsche in a conversation about superheroes. We're going places now.


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    #2680
    jones
    Registered Users Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭jones


    shootermacg wrote: »

    "He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."

    Nietzsche

    Love that quote


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    #2681
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,255 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    shootermacg wrote: »
    Go away and read some comics that weren't written in the 1980's. Plenty of material where superman snaps and makes batman look like a boy-scout.

    I prefer my movies to have some substance, not cater to my childhood one dimensional views..which I have long since thrown along with all the other toys.

    "He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."

    Nietzsche

    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."

    Nietzsche


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    #2682
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,076 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Jeasus! What's happening?? :eek:


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    #2683
    Liam O
    Registered Users Posts: 19,079 ✭✭✭✭Liam O


    Seen it last night and was surprised by how good it was. The first hour or so i was getting a bit restless with where it was going and was braced for a bad climax but once they got to the big confrontation i thought it came together quite well.

    Also in the minority that quite liked Eisenberg as Luther.


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    #2684
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Liam O wrote: »
    Also in the minority that quite liked Eisenberg as Luther.

    I quite liked his delivery - I just wish they had made even a token effort to make his character make any sense.

    Like, any. At all.

    Bad guy because the movie needs a bad guy just isn't going to cut it. Also, as one review said, he works much better if you imagine he is a malfunctioning android. Seriously.


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    #2685
    Sudden Valley
    Registered Users Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Ben Gadot wrote: »
    I've a genuine question for those unhappy with the serious tone of the film.

    What kind of levity do people think could have placed into a story taking inspiration from the likes of Death of Superman, Death in the Family, and The Dark Knight Returns?

    I own all 3 and while it's been awhile since I read them, there's not a whole lot of levity to counteract the "joylessness" of the stories.

    In fact, the only thing anywhere near close to levity in the Dark Knight Returns is just how much of a horrible fcuker Bruce is to his "victims", ironic given the criticism of how cruel Bruce is in BVS.

    i thought the first film, Batman Begins had quite a bit of levity- especially in the scenes where Wayne was requesting Lucious fox to build elaborate cars and suits and coming up with outlandish excuses or most of the interaction between Wayne and Alfred. From the mid-point of the 23nd and the whole 3rd film were quite dark alright. I never thought that made the film joyless- even if the characters were not happy.


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    #2686
    NyOmnishambles
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭NyOmnishambles


    FunLover18 wrote: »
    I don't Affleck's Bruce/Batman cracks a smile once in this film (open to correction)

    I think he has the briefest of pleased with himself griins when he finally manages to fire his last atomised Kryptonite shell at Doomsday

    But other than that it is moody Batman all over

    I was at the double Bill of Man of Steel and Batman vs Superman last Thursday night

    I have conflicting views on the movie, I liked some parts, found that they got others totally wrong and was just Meh about a lot of it

    There is certainly potential for a good movie somewhere in there but they missed the mark with this one

    I never had an issue with the casting of Ben Affleck as Batman and I am happy that the reaction has generally been positive and I feel a solo outing for him could be excellent

    I also think whist she wasn't necessary in this movie that Wonder Woman's appearance has helped people to think that a solo outing for her could work too, which can only be a good thing, be that in a Captain America style origin story which I think would be the best option or a contemporary story with flashbacks

    Lois was a waste of a good actress and her profile was the only reason Lois got as much screen time as she did which was unnecessary to the story

    The dream sequences/flashforwards didn't mesh with the rest of the movie

    The Nuke scene and Supermans appearance after could have been excellent as it but like most things in this movie it was rushed and resolved too quickly, I felt the effects were poorly done for this bit and a waste

    The snippet at the end was totally unnecessary, there should be no indication that he is alive at the end of the movie

    The portrayal of Lex was appalling, I was never happy with Eisenberg being cast for this role but he is beter than what they gave him to work with here

    Both Lex's and Batman's motivations are never properly justified and attempts to show how they could have done it in this thread have been far better

    As pointed out previously this is a script that has gone through several versions with having bits tacked onto it and never having a proper review through the whole thing to see what was now unnecessary

    Overall whilst I wasn't hostile watching it and came out of it thinking it was ok with a bit of time to think it shows itself up to be a mess of epic proportions which could have been turned around easily enough with a bit of thought

    *The above is probably my longest post ever and I had originally intended it to be a 1 line reply to the quoted post but I guess I needed to get that out*


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    #2687
    flangemeistro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,692 ✭✭✭flangemeistro


    http://screenrant.com/batman-movie-script-ben-affleck/


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    #2688
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    NyOmnishambles wrote: »
    *The above is probably my longest post ever and I had originally intended it to be a 1 line reply to the quoted post but I guess I needed to get that out*

    When I first saw it I thought that every paragraph was going to be an example of Batfleck smiling :eek:


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    #2689
    mark13
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭mark13


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-MUzvASr8s


    Interesting that Warner bros would release a deleted scene from the movie so soon, presumably they want to get people hyped for the blu-ray/directors cut nice and early.


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    #2690
    Ben Gadot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭Ben Gadot


    Nervous Wreck wrote: »
    Well firstly, why on earth would they make a movie that draws inspiration from THREE different books, and then ensure that they're the three most grim books they could find (bit hyperbolic, but there you go). They were in no way tied to doing that and they almost hamstrung themselves by doing so.

    I don't see the problem with taking inspiration from multiple sources? The Dark Knight Rises alone took inspiration from No Man's Land, Knightfall and The Dark Knight Returns.

    As for the sources that Snyder chose to draw inspiration from, I don't mind a grim story within the genre as long as it hits the right notes and done for the right reasons. Clark's sacrifice resulted in a significant shift in how metas are viewed and brought Bruce back to his senses. He inspired exactly what you say was missing: hope.

    Secondly, it's not so much about levity as it is joylessness. There is a moment in the final battle where Wonder Woman seems in her element, completely enjoying the fight. This is the only point of the entire 150-ish minutes where anyone seems in any way happy. Do we really need a film where no one is happy at all? It's depressing and sets an awful tone for a film, especially one that involves Superman, the supposed symbol of hope for the world.

    The story is the most important thing to me tbh, it can depress me or fill me with joy, I don't mind as long as it's good enough. I don't go to the cinema to get my dose of rainbows and sunshine.

    And look, to me there was happiness in the film, Cavill and Adams had great chemistry and Gal Gadot provided some much need positive vibes. Irons' Alfred seemed quite weightless as well. That day of the dead shot gave me chills as well as you could see the love jumping off the screen for Clark.

    Also, it wasn't a non stop misery piece like let's say Game of Thrones, which seems to put misery on the reader and viewer for the sake of it.

    It's not about having jokes every 30 seconds, it's more about not purposely creating a film that excludes joy, happiness and hope; all of the things that a superhero is supposed to protect...

    This sums things up as we clearly view the genre in completely different ways. I really don't think this is true as look at arguably the two most critically acclaimed pieces within the genre on either film or tv in recent memory: Jessica Jones and Daredevil. Neither of them pump the viewer with joy or hope, yet both are absolutely compelling.

    I can understand your frustration at the portrayal of Superman as the dark tone is not a natural fit, but that doesn't necessarily means the film sucks. It just means you didn't get what you wanted from the character, but I believe eventually you will see Superman as you want to and indeed, as the defacto leader and beacon of hope of the Justice League.


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    #2691
    jungleman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    mark13 wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-MUzvASr8s


    Interesting that Warner bros would release a deleted scene from the movie so soon, presumably they want to get people hyped for the blu-ray/directors cut nice and early.

    They probably realised from the reviews the movie has been getting that they f*cked up badly by cutting so much of it in the first place!


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    #2692
    jones
    Registered Users Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭jones


    jungleman wrote: »
    They probably realised form the reviews the movie has been getting that they f*cked up badly by cutting so much of it in the first place!

    My thoughts exactly...cutting this made no sense it actually explains a pretty big plot hole in the movie. Couldn't they of found a different 45 seconds to remove instead of this :pac:

    I'll definitely get the Director's cut bluray


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    #2693
    Tefral
    Registered Users Posts: 4,318 ✭✭✭Tefral


    mark13 wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-MUzvASr8s


    Interesting that Warner bros would release a deleted scene from the movie so soon, presumably they want to get people hyped for the blu-ray/directors cut nice and early.

    Is that steppenwolf?


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    #2694
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    mark13 wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-MUzvASr8s


    Interesting that Warner bros would release a deleted scene from the movie so soon, presumably they want to get people hyped for the blu-ray/directors cut nice and early.
    Jesus Christ, has anyone ever told Zac Snyder what lighting is?

    Or rather non "moody, brooding" lighting? The guy is becoming the teen emo answer to Michael Bay at this point. It's ridiculous.


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    #2695
    JakeArmitage
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 541 ✭✭✭JakeArmitage


    Much more positive review here , warning contains spoilers

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2016/03/29/the-critics-must-be-crazy-batman-v-superman-is-fantastic/#4b4495321cc5


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    #2696
    Canadel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭Canadel


    Out of interest, does Superman still do his super quick turnaround in telephone boxes any more, given how rare they are?


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    #2697
    jungleman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Jesus Christ, has anyone ever told Zac Snyder what lighting is?

    Or rather non "moody, brooding" lighting? The guy is becoming the teen emo answer to Michael Bay at this point. It's ridiculous.

    That scene takes place in a spaceship wreckage. I think the dark lighting is pretty apt, no?


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    #2698
    IncognitoMan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭IncognitoMan


    Canadel wrote: »
    Out of interest, does Superman still do his super quick turnaround in telephone boxes any more, given how rare they are?

    He does it in an apple store now


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    #2699
    shootermacg
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    Nice article here:

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2016/03/22/review-batman-v-superman-triumphant/2/#4ec29f4e6757


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    #2700
    Wedwood
    Registered Users Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Wedwood


    Well, the box office performance suggests BvS will eventually get close to €1billion. There also appears to be a backlash of sorts against the critical panning of the movie which I can't recall ever happening like this before.

    Yes, the Transformers movies also made big money and were still rubbish, but BvS is different in that it has divided opinions. It seems that people who know about Frank Miller's graphic novels 'get it', while those unfamiliar with Miller's stories haven't yet got their heads around this 'gloomy' take on the DC superheroes. It doesn't fit the stereotypical Batman/Superman movie which are usually much lighter affairs.

    I suspect this movie will follow a similar road as Blade Runner in that it took audiences a while to get their heads around the movie, but became well liked and respected afterwards.


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    #2701
    jungleman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jungleman


    Wedwood wrote: »
    Well, the box office performance suggests BvS will eventually get close to €1billion. There also appears to be a backlash of sorts against the critical panning of the movie which I can't recall ever happening like this before.

    Yes, the Transformers movies also made big money and were still rubbish, but BvS is different in that it has divided opinions. It seems that people who know about Frank Miller's graphic novels 'get it', while those unfamiliar with Miller's stories haven't yet got their heads around this 'gloomy' take on the DC superheroes. It doesn't fit the stereotypical Batman/Superman movie which are usually much lighter affairs.

    I suspect this movie will follow a similar road as Blade Runner in that it took audiences a while to get their heads around the movie, but became well liked and respected afterwards.

    Funny you mentioned Blade Runner, that film was a far more rewarding experience once the director's cut was released. I suspect BvS will be exactly the same.


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