Phoenix Park tunnel

Grandeeod · 13-03-2015 7:27pm

monument wrote: »

What's your issue with what they said?

This is what was quoted.

The Rail Users Ireland lobby group gave a guarded welcome to the news.

diverted

"If they're adding extra trains everyone is happy," said spokesman Mark Gleeson.

However, he warned that an "awkward situation" will arise "where some people will benefit and others won't" if existing trains are diverted for the new service.

Now considering it is still featured on their website as a "campaign", if one looks, one will see that its seriously out of date. I just felt their response to what they are probably most associated with after DU, came across as a bit lame and even vague. Personally I think Mark Gleeson's statement such as "awkward situation" was unhelpful and a type of fence sitting. I would have expected a more thorough assessment. But I'm basing my opinion on what was quoted.

Grandeeod · 13-03-2015 7:46pm

xper wrote: »

Their guarded reaction is perfectly reasonable. Diverting existing services, if that is what's planned, is indeed of dubious benefit. If they're additonal services then that is less of a problem. But it is not clear which it is.

The article is confused and contradictory, typically so for any Irish paper reporting on virtually any topic these days. It says that the new services will deliver passengers into the heart of the city but also says the new terminal will be Docklands station. Docklands is not the heart of the city by any stretch of the imagination and though physically nearer to the trip-generating destinations mentioned, it is not nearly as well connected to some of them as Heuston, and takes several minutes longer to get to. The map accompanying the article has Connolly as an intermediate stop between Drumcondra and Docklands. anyone vaguely familiar with Dublin's rail line layout knows this is pure misleading bull****. Who supplied this map I wonder?

Well one could assume that RUI were consulted and if you look at their website you will note that their article on the PPT has a graphic showing the route running to Spencer Dock (now Docklands). A simple google search on the PPT route does tend to throw up a lot of RUI/P11 material. If memory serves me correctly that graphic dates back to 2003, when that was the only realistic option. But it looks like a very lazy attitude now by RUI. I think the page needs to be updated to reflect the changes that have taken place since then. Its all well and good being quoted in the media, but you really need to have the source material up to date.

alofek · 11-05-2015 4:02pm

Does anybody know if any consideration has ever been given to the possibility of opening new stations at Stoneybatter/NCR, Cabra, or Phibsboro?

Carawaystick · 11-05-2015 4:40pm

alofek wrote: »

Does anybody know if any consideration has ever been given to the possibility of opening new stations at Stoneybatter/NCR, Cabra, or Phibsboro?

As far as I understand it, the lines are curved in Phibsboro and the railway safety commission rules do not allow new curved platforms, as they leave a big gap.
It's also very tight on the canal end line

scouserstation · 11-05-2015 7:22pm

alofek wrote: »

Does anybody know if any consideration has ever been given to the possibility of opening new stations at Stoneybatter/NCR, Cabra, or Phibsboro?

If feasible, it would be great to see an underground stop in the Phoenix park, also be good to have a stop in stoneybatter. Dont think it would be beneficial having stops in phibsboro or cabra as these areas will be served by the new luas cross city line directly into city centre.

LXFlyer · 11-05-2015 7:35pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

As far as I understand it, the lines are curved in Phibsboro and the railway safety commission rules do not allow new curved platforms, as they leave a big gap.
It's also very tight on the canal end line

Cabra is probably the only feasible location.

Aard · 11-05-2015 8:07pm

Iirc the Phibsboro/Mountjoy LAP has a station at Cross Guns Bridge as an objective. I wonder if straightening of the line in this area is feasible.

monument · 11-05-2015 8:49pm

scouserstation wrote: »

If feasible, it would be great to see an underground stop in the Phoenix park, also be good to have a stop in stoneybatter. Dont think it would be beneficial having stops in phibsboro or cabra as these areas will be served by the new luas cross city line directly into city centre.

For a fairly high-density area, the Luas stop and potential train station location are a good distance apart.

The Luas stop location directly serves the area of the west of Phibsborough, the NCR, and Grangegorman Upper, while the potental train/Dart station directly serves the north of Phibsborough, the south of Glasnevin, the Finglas Road etc. The services would also both serve central Phibsborough with not too much walking and Luas/trains would serve different ending/starting points.

The goal is to have a rail network, and it's common for places like Phibsborough to be served by more than one station and type of service.

Once Dart Underground progresses it will be more and more untenable not to have a Phibsborough / Glasnevin station.

scouserstation · 11-05-2015 9:28pm

monument wrote: »

For a fairly high-density area, the Luas stop and potential train station location are a good distance apart.

The Luas stop location directly serves the area of the west of Phibsborough, the NCR, and Grangegorman Upper, while the potental train/Dart station directly serves the north of Phibsborough, the south of Glasnevin, the Finglas Road etc. The services would also both serve central Phibsborough with not too much walking and Luas/trains would serve different ending/starting points.

The goal is to have a rail network, and it's common for places like Phibsborough to be served by more than one station and type of service.

Once Dart Underground progresses it will be more and more untenable not to have a Phibsborough / Glasnevin station.

Yes when dart Underground (eventually) goes ahead the phibsboro stop would be a runner but at the moment for residents here it looks like the luas cross city line has much better connectivity to the City centre and to the north of the city when the airport extension gets built

scouserstation · 11-05-2015 9:29pm

monument wrote: »

For a fairly high-density area, the Luas stop and potential train station location are a good distance apart.

The Luas stop location directly serves the area of the west of Phibsborough, the NCR, and Grangegorman Upper, while the potental train/Dart station directly serves the north of Phibsborough, the south of Glasnevin, the Finglas Road etc. The services would also both serve central Phibsborough with not too much walking and Luas/trains would serve different ending/starting points.

The goal is to have a rail network, and it's common for places like Phibsborough to be served by more than one station and type of service.

Once Dart Underground progresses it will be more and more untenable not to have a Phibsborough / Glasnevin station.

Yes when dart Underground (eventually) goes ahead the phibsboro stop would be a runner but at the moment for residents here it looks like the luas cross city line has much better connectivity to the City centre and to the north of the city when the airport extension gets built

LeinsterDub · 11-05-2015 9:33pm

scouserstation wrote: »

Yes when dart Underground (eventually) goes ahead

I think you mean IF

Grandeeod · 11-05-2015 11:39pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I think you mean IF

And still a big IF. Recent news regarding road funding doesn't bode well for major rail based projects.

alofek · 12-05-2015 12:50pm

Personally, I think long-term - we should be looking at three stops on this stretch of rail to put it to full use.
- a stop above North Circular Road to serve the northern parts of Stoneybatter, lower parts of Blackhorse Avenue area, as well as Garda HQ, McKee Barracks and Dublin Zoo, which is country's biggest visitor attraction.
- a stop at Cabra at the old quarry lands, which would serve quite a different part of Cabra to Luas Cross City, including a new development planned at this site for a very high-density develoment.
- and obviously the most important one would be coming up with an engineering solution to provide a stop at Phibsboro, which again would serve Phibsboro itself, parts of Glasnevin, Dalymount, arguably even Glasnevin Cemetery & the Mater.

Pete_Cavan · 12-05-2015 9:13pm

Three stations between Hueston and Pibsborough is too many on such a short stretch. If they are being served by Kildare services these stations will delay the trains too much and there is unlikely to be enough demand for a new service to serve these stations. Dublin Bus and Luas suffer from too many stops/stations too close together. Better to have fewer stations but increase the catchment area of each by having proper bicycle parking and good cycle lanes on approach to the station.

LXFlyer · 12-05-2015 10:06pm

Exactly - one station would be sufficient, and in my view the only suitable location is at Cabra.

Anyone wanting to go to Phibsboro or the Mater can walk from Drumcondra.

monument · 12-05-2015 10:31pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Exactly - one station would be sufficient, and in my view the only suitable location is at Cabra.

Anyone wanting to go to Phibsboro or the Mater can walk from Drumcondra.

With Dart on the Maynooth line, a 3km gap between Broombridge and Drumcondra would be nothing short of outrageous.

North of Sydney Parade Dart Station the spacing of stations is around 800m between each one... it's ~1m between Drumcondra and Phibsboro, and from Phibsboro it's nearly 2km to both Broombridge or the Cabra Road end of the quarry... Why would the northside with higher density be treated so differently?

In fact, there's more of a case for stations on the northside at locations like Hart's Corner and Ballybough Rd given intersects with an arterial routes.

LXFlyer · 12-05-2015 10:38pm

monument wrote: »

With Dart on the Maynooth line, a 3km gap between Broombridge and Drumcondra would be nothing short of outrageous.

North of Sydney Parade Dart Station the spacing of stations is around 800m... it's ~1m between Drumcondra and Phibsboro... Why would the northside with higher density be treated so differently?

In fact, there's more of a case for stations on the northside at locations like Hart's Corner and Ballybough Rd given intersects with an arterial routes.

I am not talking about DART and nor is this thread about DART - the question was asked in relation to the Phoenix Park Tunnel which will be used by a limited diesel service to Grand Canal Dock from the Kildare Line.

That's the context of my reply.

However, there are clearance issues from Glasnevin Junction eastwards, and westward it's surrounded by a graveyard.

monument · 12-05-2015 11:20pm

lxflyer wrote: »

However, there are clearance issues from Glasnevin Junction eastwards, and westward it's surrounded by a graveyard.

LXFlyer · 12-05-2015 11:55pm

I would suggest that you have another look at that location in the flesh - the railway is in a tight cutting.

The areas you're highlighting are at the top of that cutting, and I suspect some are private lands.

Aard · 13-05-2015 12:27am

In terms of strategic transport planning, Cross Guns (Phibsboro) would be very important for interchanges from Finglas/Ballymun. A station on the line here would allow for bus-rail transfers. This would greatly improve access to the Dublin 2/4 officeland. This would allow Dublin 11 commuters to bypass the surface congestion and take rail instead.

monument · 13-05-2015 1:15am

lxflyer wrote: »

I would suggest that you have another look at that location in the flesh - the railway is in a tight cutting.

The areas you're highlighting are at the top of that cutting, and I suspect some are private lands.

I've looked at that location in the flesh more than a few times from all sides. Perspective comes from both looking at the area and seening it the flesh.

Stations in cuttings are not major issues, as long as there's space -- and there is space between the lines and on private lands. CPOs work for the latter.

I'd go the full hog and put in a dual line station, even with the costs linked to working at a canal edge and getting gradients etc right.

Pete_Cavan · 13-05-2015 8:18am

It is also worth bearing in mind that if DU ever gets built, the services using the PPT line will likely be discontinued ( replaced by the two proposed DART services) so any a station ar Cross Guns Bridge would be on the future Maynooth DART line.

Carawaystick · 13-05-2015 12:03pm

monument wrote: »

CPOs work for the latter.

I'd go the full hog and put in a dual line station, even with the costs linked to working at a canal edge and getting gradients etc right.

It'd be a railway order needed for Hedigan's car park at least. Any nearer to Broomebridge and you'ld only have the graveyard. Any nearer Drumcondra and you'ld have 2 stations abutting.

Between Cabra road and Faussagh Ave is the obvious place for a new station on that line. With access from both roads.

Access from platform 10 in Heuston should be improved too, with access across the Liffey to Connyngham rd and to Clancy Barracks/Islandbridge

AngryLips · 13-05-2015 2:17pm

Not exactly on the Phoenix Park tunnel alignment but I would love to see a station under the Kilmainham/Islandbridge roundabout, especially with the increasing use of these railway lines for Greater Dublin suburban traffic. It's sufficiently far enough from Heuston to warrant its own station.

13-05-2015 6:40pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Not exactly on the Phoenix Park tunnel alignment but I would love to see a station under the Kilmainham/Islandbridge roundabout, especially with the increasing use of these railway lines for Greater Dublin suburban traffic. It's sufficiently far enough from Heuston to warrant its own station.

might be a good place to change trains between the main ines & local services instead of platform 10. If feasible of course.

alofek · 14-05-2015 4:00pm

Very interesting replies.
I do understand that with a very limited diesel services that these stops would not necessarily be a runner in the short term, but still believe there's a compelling argument for making Phibsboro work somehow.
I wonder would the relevant Minister, who lives a few hundred yards from this potential stop, share that point of view :-)
On the other stops being considered, I would be talking longer term and the absorption of this line into more general local commuter services in Dublin.
Fully agree with poster who pointed out that the distance between some of these stops would be at the very least comparable, if not further apart, than those on the DART line. These areas are also by the nature of accommodation (house size/multi-occupancy) more densely populated than similar on the southside.

GerardKeating · 14-05-2015 6:38pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It is also worth bearing in mind that if DU ever gets built, the services using the PPT line will likely be discontinued ( replaced by the two proposed DART services) so any a station ar Cross Guns Bridge would be on the future Maynooth DART line.

All the more reason to build it.

trellheim · 15-05-2015 5:21pm

All the more reason to build it.

Rebuild it, rather, it would nearly be on the site of Glasnevin station. .... Although that was on the other line IIRC

monument · 15-05-2015 7:15pm

trellheim wrote: »

Rebuild it, rather, it would nearly be on the site of Glasnevin station. .... Although that was on the other line IIRC

Was Glasnevin station not on the eastern side of the bridge? Rebuilding it there would involve more permanent disruption.

AngryLips · 15-05-2015 9:36pm

There used to be a station at Glasnevin? Why was it closed?

monument · 15-05-2015 10:18pm

AngryLips wrote: »

There used to be a station at Glasnevin? Why was it closed?

It was short lived - 1901 to 1910

http://industrialheritageireland.info/TikiWiki/tiki-index.php?page=Glasnevin+Station
http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway%20Stations%20G/Glasnevin/IrishRailwayStations.html#Glasnevin_20090910_005_CC_JA.jpg

1huge1 · 16-05-2015 11:19am

Aard wrote: »

In terms of strategic transport planning, Cross Guns (Phibsboro) would be very important for interchanges from Finglas/Ballymun. A station on the line here would allow for bus-rail transfers. This would greatly improve access to the Dublin 2/4 officeland. This would allow Dublin 11 commuters to bypass the surface congestion and take rail instead.

That seems very close to the Drumcondra Station from what I can see.

How about a station where the track goes under the Old Cabra Road not long after coming out of the Tunnel, would facilitate a lot of DIT Grangegorman students.

Away from station talk, has any work been done so far on getting the tunnel reopened for commuter traffic, is Q1 2016 still the date?

I don't know if its related to the project but there is currently work going on on my Road beside Drumcondra Station, seems to be they are building an extra entrance (See the green in the attached link)

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/53%C2%B021'47.5%22N+6%C2%B015'34.6%22W/@53.363196,-6.259619,349m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0!6m1!1e1

monument · 16-05-2015 11:58am

1huge1 wrote: »

That seems very close to the Drumcondra Station from what I can see.

On what bases is 1km "very close" for stations in some of the highest density areas of the country?

As already posted:

North of Sydney Parade Dart Station the spacing of stations is around 800m between each one... it's ~1m between Drumcondra and Phibsboro, and from Phibsboro it's nearly 2km to both Broombridge or the Cabra Road end of the quarry... Why would the northside with higher density be treated so differently?

In fact, there's more of a case for stations on the northside at locations like Hart's Corner and Ballybough Rd given intersects with an arterial routes.

1huge1 · 16-05-2015 12:04pm

monument wrote: »

On what bases is 1km "very close" for stations in some of the highest density areas of the country?

As already posted:

North of Sydney Parade Dart Station the spacing of stations is around 800m between each one... it's ~1m between Drumcondra and Phibsboro, and from Phibsboro it's nearly 2km to both Broombridge or the Cabra Road end of the quarry... Why would the northside with higher density be treated so differently?

In fact, there's more of a case for stations on the northside at locations like Hart's Corner and Ballybough Rd given intersects with an arterial routes.

I didn't mean it to sound like I wanted the Northside treated differently to the Southside (I happen to live between Drumcondra Station and the station that was proposed).

If it is a case where they would consider opening more than one extra station, then of course I would be in favour of it.

Hopefully they would electrify the line, I would imagine running the diesel while stopping at 1km intervals wouldn't be ideal.

Aard · 16-05-2015 12:14pm

1km between heavy rail stations in the city would be about right. And given the strategic importance of a station in Phibsboro (connection with buses, and anchoring a mini-CBD) it makes sense.

trellheim · 16-05-2015 3:59pm

not sure lads... where abouts are you thinking The old cement sidings off Navan road would have space especially for an inner park and ride, plus about 15 mins walk to Grangegorman campus

lucernarian · 17-05-2015 11:54am

I think adding stations to the Phoenix Park line would be very useful for maximising the use of existing infrastructure in Dublin, especially for the northside of Dublin. Phibsboro, Drumcondra and Heuston Station each have various trip generators in the vicinity and in the case of the northside stations, have some of the highest population densities within 1km of a railway line in the State.

If the HR8/HR9 schemes from the North Dublin/Fingal Transport Study, and discussed variants, could be used then it would really maximise the potential of A) a station at Phibsboro and

the Dart Underground system proper. But it's a big if, with tunnelling in tricky areas required.

In any case, they should look at electrifying the line along with getting two stations in, one at Phibsboro if at all possible and one near the sidings in the vicinity of Cabra. That area is surrounded by residential housing throughout the 1km radius surrounding it. Though the area near the line as it approaches the Phoenix Park has much higher density and apartment blocks too on the NCR itself and with a (hopefully redeveloped in future) O'Devaney Gardens. Oxmantown Road is one long, long stretch of densely-packed terraced housing with side-streets with more housing and schools.

D.L.R. · 17-05-2015 4:25pm

There's no reason we can't have local stations at Kilmainham, Cabra, Glasnevin and Ballybough. This railway is a sleeping giant of an asset.

People talk about Metro North boosting the northside but we're not even using what's already there.

Glasnevin Jn would make a great 3-line interchange too if it was feasible.

Aard · 17-05-2015 5:19pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Glasnevin Jn would make a great 3-line interchange too if it was feasible.

Do you mean at Liffey Junction between the two rail lines and with BXD? Would such an interchange be particularly useful? Assuming a station at Phibsboro, the only additional connection that a Liffey Junction station would allow would be BXD<>PPT, which wouldn't be the most in-demand routing.

trellheim · 17-05-2015 6:40pm

Lads ... Phibsboro has no possibility of a heavy rail station inside the canal ; the MWR alignment is just about to be taken by BXD. PPT->BXD might offer a faster route to Stephens Green from Kildare trains as no other change required to get there. Heuston needs a bus to do it or Luas and Bus, Connolly = Luas and Busd

D.L.R. · 17-05-2015 6:49pm

Aard wrote: »

Do you mean at Liffey Junction between the two rail lines and with BXD? Would such an interchange be particularly useful? Assuming a station at Phibsboro, the only additional connection that a Liffey Junction station would allow would be BXD<>PPT, which wouldn't be the most in-demand routing.

Liffey Jn yes. As things stands you're probably right its not essential, but if they build the airport luas that changes things.

D.L.R. · 17-05-2015 7:02pm

trellheim wrote: »

Lads ... Phibsboro has no possibility of a heavy rail station inside the canal

Huh? You've lost me...

1huge1 · 17-05-2015 9:42pm

trellheim wrote: »

Lads ... Phibsboro has no possibility of a heavy rail station inside the canal ; the MWR alignment is just about to be taken by BXD. PPT->BXD might offer a faster route to Stephens Green from Kildare trains as no other change required to get there. Heuston needs a bus to do it or Luas and Bus, Connolly = Luas and Busd

I think you are getting mixed up to where we mean by a Phibsboro railway station, it would not be anywhere near the BXD line.

They are talking about around this area https://www.google.ie/maps/place/53%C2%B021'52.8%22N+6%C2%B016'18.1%22W/@53.3646667,-6.2716944,547m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0!6m1!1e1?hl=en

D.L.R. · 17-05-2015 10:53pm

1huge1 wrote: »

I think you are getting mixed up to where we mean by a Phibsboro railway station, it would not be anywhere near the BXD line.

They are talking about around this area https://www.google.ie/maps/place/53%C2%B021'52.8%22N+6%C2%B016'18.1%22W/@53.3646667,-6.2716944,547m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0!6m1!1e1?hl=en

Yes, the old Glasnevin station. This area is technically Glasnevin anyway, so that's what I'm calling it.

trellheim · 18-05-2015 6:55pm

DLR - thank you. Phibsboro ends for me at south end of Cross Guns bridge

ClovenHoof · 19-05-2015 12:53pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It is also worth bearing in mind that if DU ever gets built, the services using the PPT line will likely be discontinued ( replaced by the two proposed DART services) so any a station ar Cross Guns Bridge would be on the future Maynooth DART line.

Why?

LXFlyer · 19-05-2015 1:31pm

Whatever may happen in the future, there are no plans within the funding budget for the project that will see Kildare Line services operate to Grand Canal Dock for any new stations.

I think that point needs to be emphasised before people get a bit carried away.

Perhaps in the future extra stations could be added if funds become available, but initially trains will be serving platform 10 at Heuston, Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse and Grand Canal Dock.

monument · 19-05-2015 1:41pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Whatever may happen in the future, there are no plans within the funding budget for the project that will see Kildare Line services operate to Grand Canal Dock for any new stations.

I think that point needs to be emphasised before people get a bit carried away.

Perhaps in the future extra stations could be added if funds become available, but initially trains will be serving platform 10 at Heuston, Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse and Grand Canal Dock.

That's a problem in Ireland -- we as a people don't engage in the issue, we don't push for what's right and we end up with half of what we should.

Stations are not just added when there's funding, people have to push for them at all times.

LXFlyer · 19-05-2015 1:51pm

monument wrote: »

That's a problem in Ireland -- we as a people don't engage in the issue, we don't push for what's right and we end up with half of what we should.

Stations are not just added when there's funding, people have to push for them at all times.

Whether it's right or not in your mind, the reality is that there isn't the money to do it in the current funding budget. That needs to be made clear, before this thread goes that bit further.

The proposed schedule is for one train an hour to operate off-peak between the Kildare Line and Grand Canal Dock and four trains during the peak period (which probably means two each hour). That service level would not justify the level of investment being discussed.

However, were the service level to be increased in time, and with the revised DART service pattern arising from DART Underground, I think that you could see more stations added. But that is not going to happen in the medium term.

But people need to be realistic in their initial expectations.

alofek · 19-05-2015 2:40pm

I think people are being realistic in their expectations and understand that this is not going to happen in the immediate short term.
The Transport Minister in a speech today actually referenced the fact that by 2023 - we are going to have another 50,000 people commuting into city centre. See his own website for details.
It would seem obvious that making full use of the existing infrastructure would be one way of trying to plan for this.
Having a circa three mile stretch of track through (by Dublin's standards) a densely populated area without one single station seems on the face of it an inefficient use of available resources.

Phoenix Park tunnel

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