M6 - is the Galway Bypass necessary? (thread split)

Iwannahurl · 06-09-2011 12:32pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think the bypass is a no-brainer, but I hate galway's roundabouts and I think urban speed limits should be strictly policed everywhere.

I don't care about permeability for cyclists, but I don't oppose it. I think the best HGV control for Galway would be a bypass.

So proponents of the GCOB are not the uniform anti-cycling bloc you imagine.

I would have thought the biggest HGV challenge for cyclists and pedestrians woud be on city streets. But I am led to believe that the majority of HGVs are actually through traffic, so would a GCOB (a) remove HGVs and (b) be a big help to cyclists on key city streets?

Not all GCOB proponents are "anti cyclist" and not all cyclists are anti GCOB.

IMO, the issue is one of trust in the "Planners". Galway City Council and others, who proclaim that a main objective of the GCOB is to facilitate sustainable transport within the city once traffic is removed/reduced have shown little interest in implementing universal pro-cycling, pro-walking and pro-PT measures to date. Typically they are hugely resistant to any measures that promote sustainable transport, if such measures offend the car lobby.

Galway City Council don't need a GCOB to implement measures like 30 kph zones, traffic calming, permeable routes, contraflow cycle lanes etc. So what are they waiting for?

Iwannahurl · 06-09-2011 12:34pm

TheUsual wrote: »

I don't get your point. Dublin gets huge traffic and has the longest, widest roads in Ireland ?
Of course.

Galway has nowhere near the population, but has some really bad usage of what infrastructure it has. Get rid of the roundabouts, new bridge, park-and-ride, free parking. Sorted.
Talk to your mate who designs Cork traffic because nobody is looking at Galway.

Free parking? Where? Why?

Parking, especially the free variety, just creates traffic and causes congestion.

TheUsual · 06-09-2011 12:42pm

dubhthach wrote: »

The only viable location for a new bridge in Galway is at Menlo where the GCOB is proposed. To access this you need to build the bypass. there are no other viable locations.

For example between the Quincentential bridge and Salmon Weir you have university on one side and Bog/Retail parks (Suckeen) on the other.

I will trust your local knowledge. I still think that Galway has enough bypasses but are badly engineered.

But I still think that using the existing infrastructure, bridges, existing roads, are a possibility. Like a bridge over a bridge.
Although the Green Party will riot.

Iwannahurl · 06-09-2011 12:43pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

1. The cycle campaign does not have a stated position on the bypass. This is somewhat curious as normally a bypass would be an obvious measure to improve cycling conditions in a city.

I'd love if this were true.

If the GCOB were really about sustainably improving traffic and transport in Galway City then it would be a no-brainer, as someone said earlier.

However, I think there is sufficient doubt about the way things are done in Galway City to justify some scepticism.

On a broader theme, in the long run more roads do not solve traffic congestion. That is a well-established though usually ignored phenomenon.

I simply don't believe the GCOB proponents when they say that all the promised sustainable transport measures will be implemented in a post GCOB scenario.

Free speeds on urban roads in Galway City are already too high for comfort. Can you imagine what it'll be like when there is less traffic?

The authorities could already tackle the speed problem now if they wanted to. They don't need a GCOB for that kind of intervention, so why isn't it happening and why aren't the GCOB enthusiasts lobbying for such if they care so much about promoting better conditions for cyclists, pedestrians and bus users?

Iwannahurl · 06-09-2011 12:45pm

TheUsual wrote: »

Although the Green Party will riot.

Will he?

TheUsual · 06-09-2011 12:45pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Free parking? Where? Why?

Parking, especially the free variety, just creates traffic and causes congestion.

Outside the city with frequent buses in and out of town, like the Luas in Dublin.
Where ? Hotels that are empty.
Why ? So the traffic in Galway goes back to a normal small Irish town and not a Dublin nightmare that it is now.

dubhthach · 06-09-2011 12:54pm

TheUsual wrote: »

I will trust your local knowledge. I still think that Galway has enough bypasses but are badly engineered.

But I still think that using the existing infrastructure, bridges, existing roads, are a possibility. Like a bridge over a bridge.
Although the Green Party will riot.

Well indeed improvements could be made that would improve some traffic flow. For example a overpass on the "Terryland roundabout" has been proposed for years this would cover all traffic coming over the Quincentenial that is going up the Seán Mulvoy road (or going the opposite direction). The problem is that this roundabout can never be made fully grade seperated due to close proximity of buildings etc.

Huge amount of traffic from Knocknacarra (KnocknaTallaght ) get funnelled into the Quincentenial bridge.

If you are driving from Wellpark to Salthill there are no roundabouts, however it can still take 45mins to 1 hour in rush hour (well it did in 2007), all traffic on this root gets funnelled into the Wolfe Tone bridge.

As for local knowledge I haven't lived in Galway since 2007 however I'm a city native and lived, went to university and started my working career there.

TheUsual · 06-09-2011 12:58pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Will he?

Ha ha. Still they kept Fianna Fail in check when they were alive. (not)

TheUsual · 06-09-2011 1:03pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Well indeed improvements could be made that would improve some traffic flow. For example a overpass on the "Terryland roundabout" has been proposed for years this would cover all traffic coming over the Quincentenial that is going up the Seán Mulvoy road (or going the opposite direction). The problem is that this roundabout can never be made fully grade seperated due to close proximity of buildings etc.

Huge amount of traffic from Knocknacarra (KnocknaTallaght ) get funnelled into the Quincentenial bridge.

If you are driving from Wellpark to Salthill there are no roundabouts, however it can still take 45mins to 1 hour in rush hour (well it did in 2007), all traffic on this root gets funnelled into the Wolfe Tone bridge.

As for local knowledge I haven't lived in Galway since 2007 however I'm a city native and lived, went to university and started my working career there.

I don't live or work there, but I am shocked anytime I go there for work or weekends. The roads are fine, the roundabouts are ridiculous.
But the problem is keeping cars away from Ayre's Square and the 3 bridges.

For such a small population, the traffic is grim.

Iwannahurl · 06-09-2011 1:03pm

TheUsual wrote: »

Outside the city with frequent buses in and out of town, like the Luas in Dublin.
Where ? Hotels that are empty.
Why ? So the traffic in Galway goes back to a normal small Irish town and not a Dublin nightmare that it is now.

That's Park & Ride, then, not free parking.

In which case, I wonder how a P&R should be funded?

I'd be in favour of making driving into the city to park (esp on streets) more expensive than parking outside. At the moment a large aount of parkig in the city is effectively free, due to a deliberate laissez faire policy on the part of the local authority and AGS.

TheUsual · 06-09-2011 1:06pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

That's Park & Ride, then, not free parking.

In which case, I wonder how a P&R should be funded?

I'd be in favour of making driving into the city to park (esp on streets) more expensive than parking outside. At the moment a large aount of parkig in the city is effectively free, due to a deliberate laissez faire policy on the part of the local authority and AGS.

No I say free otherwise people won't use it everyday.

Funding advantage is not having to build new roads , even if it is at a loss.
The DART (Dublin area rapid transport) has never made a profit. But think of the savings to the country in terms of infrastructure. It is the way to think, getting people to work even if you don't make a profit.

antoobrien · 06-09-2011 1:09pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

IMO, the issue is one of trust in the "Planners". Galway City Council and others

No need to worry then as this isn't a Galway City Council project, the County Council are lead local authority.

Waiting for the abuse....

Iwannahurl · 06-09-2011 1:13pm

dubhthach wrote: »

If you are driving from Wellpark to Salthill there are no roundabouts, however it can still take 45mins to 1 hour in rush hour (well it did in 2007), all traffic on this root gets funnelled into the Wolfe Tone bridge.

As for local knowledge I haven't lived in Galway since 2007 however I'm a city native and lived, went to university and started my working career there.

Wellpark to Salthill: just over 4 km, or less than an hour's walk, according to Google Maps.

Some years ago I regularly travelled that very same link, as part of a longer cycle commute. Never took me more than 15 minutes or so, even in "rush" hour.

Some say the GCOB is a no brainer. How can sitting in ones car for as long as it would take to walk the same distance, or for at least three times as long as it would take to cycle, apparently be regarded (by many?) as a no brainer also?

dubhthach · 06-09-2011 1:14pm

antoobrien wrote: »

No need to worry then as this isn't a Galway City Council project, the County Council are lead local authority.

Waiting for the abuse....

Well it helps that nearly all of the route is outside the City boundary (apart from around Menlo

TheUsual · 06-09-2011 1:16pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

That's Park & Ride, then, not free parking.

In which case, I wonder how a P&R should be funded?

I'd be in favour of making driving into the city to park (esp on streets) more expensive than parking outside. At the moment a large aount of parkig in the city is effectively free, due to a deliberate laissez faire policy on the part of the local authority and AGS.

Free, all free.

What you lose on the buses and that you make up for in business and tourists that get around quicker. Then maybe charge the day-trippers and van-drivers to pay for some of it, but it does not have to make a profit.

Iwannahurl · 06-09-2011 1:18pm

antoobrien wrote: »

No need to worry then as this isn't a Galway City Council project, the County Council are lead local authority.

Waiting for the abuse....

Co Co HQ is in the city. How many of their employees live in the city? I'd say the Co Co is in favour of the GCOB for all sorts of reasons, not least to alleviate the traffic congestion they have caused with their misguided "planning" policies.

Or "planning" practices, I should say, since they apparently ignored their own policies when approving all that one-off housing and unsustainable urban development in the middle of nowhere.

dubhthach · 06-09-2011 1:26pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Wellpark to Salthill: just over 4 km, or less than an hour's walk, according to Google Maps.

Some years ago I regularly travelled that very same link, as part of a longer cycle commute. Never took me more than 15 minutes or so, even in "rush" hour.

Some say the GCOB is a no brainer. How can sitting in ones car for as long as it would take to walk the same distance, or for at least three times as long as it would take to cycle, apparently be regarded (by many?) as a no brainer also?

4km's from where to where? The Village to the Eye Cinema?, Salthill stretches from Pollnarooma in the West to Grattan beach. Likewise Wellpark goes all the way up to former Crown Paints plant.

Not everyone can bomb along on the bicycle for example I've been told by doctors that I can only "leisure cycle" having a Discectomy on your lower back does that to you.

Walking two hours a day in winter in Galway no thanks.

Iwannahurl · 06-09-2011 1:37pm

dubhthach wrote: »

4km's from where to where? The Village to the Eye Cinema?, Salthill stretches from Pollnarooma in the West to Grattan beach. Likewise Wellpark goes all the way up to former Crown Paints plant.

Not everyone can bomb along on the bicycle for example I've been told by doctors that I can only "leisure cycle" having a Discectomy on your lower back does that to you.

Walking two hours a day in winter in Galway no thanks.

"It can still take 45mins to 1 hour in rush hour" from where to where?

I sympathise on the lower back problems. Several years ago I had a particular type of disc prolapse that meant I had to kneel at my desk because I couldn't sit. Cured it with physio and exercise (gym initially).

Regular use of the car was a big aggravating factor. Switched to the bike, after a few years absence, and haven't looked back since. As the fellow said when he got a crick in his neck.

I wouldn't commute on foot two hours a day at any time of year. The reason I mentioned it at all in response to your post was that walking the route you alluded to would take approximately as long as it was taking you to drive.

This is a phenomenon that I simply can't get my head around. Traffic congestion is the #1 complaint in Galway City, yet hordes of motorists would prefer to sit in their cars than spend the same -- or much less -- time travelling the same distance on foot or by bike. Do all of them "need" to travel by car? And alone?

antoobrien · 06-09-2011 1:58pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How many of their employees live in the city?

Wrong question - how many people employed in the city do not live in the city?

Answer: enough that cycling, PT and P&R won't scratch the problem.

How long can we ignore the fact that there are on average 35k vehicles every day approaching Galway from Claregalway & Glennascaul (figures which don't include the traffic from south Co Galway, the Headfrod Rd and the Claregalway rat runs btw)?

That dwarfs the 18k trips (along with their 8k passengers) that are made by motorists either to work or education within the city boundaries per the study based on the 2006 census.

Zubeneschamali · 06-09-2011 2:22pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How can sitting in ones car for as long as it would take to walk the same distance, or for at least three times as long as it would take to cycle, apparently be regarded (by many?) as a no brainer also?

For much of the year, that 4km is more of a swim than a walk, with horizontal rain blowing across the tundra at fridge temperatures. No thanks.

ei.sdraob · 06-09-2011 2:34pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

1. The cycle campaign does not have a stated position on the bypass. This is somewhat curious as normally a bypass would be an obvious measure to improve cycling conditions in a city.

2. If those in favour if the bypass want the support of other interest groups then they would want to start putting something on the table. Instead they want to keep the roundabouts, they are opposed to speed management, they oppose permeability improvements and seek to shut down existing access for cyclist and pedestrians, they oppose HGV management, they oppose tackling the one way streets.

In short the intent of the GCOBs proponents appears to be to make the city more dangerous and inconvenient cyclists and pedestrians rather than less.

Why would anyone expect the support of cyclists for that? Its a ludicrous idea.

Your problem is with traffic within the city and roundabouts (its ok i hate em too),
The bypass would take cars out of the city right now anyone wishing to cross the river either goes on the quncentenneal bridge or has to go thru the very heart of city in closer contact with pedestrians and cyclists often on narrow roads/bridges

there simply is no alternative to get from one side to the other

antoobrien · 06-09-2011 2:39pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

In short the intent of the GCOBs proponents appears to be to make the city more dangerous and inconvenient cyclists and pedestrians rather than less.

On what basis have you formed this opinion?

Edit: Mods at this stage we should either rename the thread to "GCOB: required or not" or split out this discussion ala the M17/18 thread. Or I can start a new one.

L1011 · 06-09-2011 6:35pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

In short the intent of the GCOBs proponents appears to be to make the city more dangerous and inconvenient cyclists and pedestrians rather than less.

What on earth are you twisting to extrapolate that from??

Iwannahurl · 06-09-2011 7:21pm

antoobrien wrote: »

Wrong question -

how many people employed in the city do not live in the city?

No. My earlier remark was about the possible attitudes of Galway Co Co personnel to the GCOB. Do you think it unlikely that people in the public service might be strongly motivated by their own self-interest?

Iwannahurl · 06-09-2011 7:29pm

antoobrien wrote: »

Wrong question - how many people employed in the city do not live in the city?

Answer: enough that cycling, PT and P&R won't scratch the problem.

How long can we ignore the fact that there are on average 35k vehicles every day approaching Galway from Claregalway & Glennascaul (figures which don't include the traffic from south Co Galway, the Headfrod Rd and the Claregalway rat runs btw)?

That dwarfs the 18k trips (along with their 8k passengers) that are made by motorists either to work or education within the city boundaries per the study based on the 2006 census.

I'll have a look at the second study when I'm on a PC with a larger screen (can't see it on the wee netbook I'm using just now).

In the meantime, can you explain to me (an infrastructure non-expert) how the GCOB would be of benefit to the occupants of the thousands of vehicles approaching Galway City from the Claregalway/Tuam direction?

Also, it is often said that most of the traffic originating in residential areas west of the city is heading to the east where the jobs are. So where is the traffic from Claregalway and Glennascaul heading?

Data regarding origin, destination, vehicle occupancy rates and purpose of trip are as important as simple vehicle counts, I would also suggest.

Iwannahurl · 06-09-2011 7:41pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Your problem is with traffic within the city and roundabouts (its ok i hate em too),
The bypass would take cars out of the city right now anyone wishing to cross the river either goes on the quncentenneal bridge or has to go thru the very heart of city in closer contact with pedestrians and cyclists often on narrow roads/bridges

there simply is no alternative to get from one side to the other

How many people are crossing the city?

In what directions?

What is their means of travel?

What are the occupancy rates of their mode of travel?

What is the purpose of their trips?

What is the breakdown of the distances travelled?

All questions relevant to the business case for a bypass, I would guess.

L1011 · 06-09-2011 7:57pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

In the meantime, can you explain to me (an infrastructure non-expert) how the GCOB would be of benefit to the occupants of the thousands of vehicles approaching Galway City from the Claregalway/Tuam direction?

Also, it is often said that most of the traffic originating in residential areas west of the city is heading to the east where the jobs are. So where is the traffic from Claregalway and Glennascaul heading?

Very little of that traffic will be heading in to the actual city. A lot of it will be heading to the industrial areas in Oranmore, Renmore and so on. Currently the existing "bypass" is an S4 with underspecced roundabouts from the N17 east until it becomes D2 with underspecced (and in one case a downright badly designed) roundabout junctions to these areas.

Some is likely to be heading west, and west from the N17/existing 'bypass' junction is even worse, being an S4 which closely hugs the city through a number of underspecced roundabouts with numerous 90 degree turn movements. Take in to account that the logical way to get west of the Corrib from Claregalway takes you on to this barely-a-bypass.

Those heading in to the city aren't going to get much benefit but the bulk of them who are heading to anywhere but the city are.
Any traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass - and QBCs, cycle facilities etc are definitely part of the mix required for the city.

The bypass is needed as a bypass. Not a relief road for the city, it already has that, except its expected to carry masses of traffic around the city.

Iwannahurl · 06-09-2011 11:14pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

For much of the year, that 4km is more of a swim than a walk, with horizontal rain blowing across the tundra at fridge temperatures. No thanks.

That's exaggeration. I know, because I cycle all year round.

So, is an additional function of the GCOB therefore to keep people nice and cosy in their cars?

It is not environmentally sustainable to promote road and car transport as the major long-term mode of passenger transport, especially in urban areas.

L1011 · 06-09-2011 11:33pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

That's exaggeration. I know, because I cycle all year round.

In Galway? Galways weather is proveably rather worse than Dublins.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So, is an additional function of the GCOB therefore to keep people nice and cosy in their cars?

Those who can feasibly cycle to work are not those who will benefit from the GCOB as has been pointed out over and over. The GCOB is a bypass for those who do not need to be in or forced around the outside of Galway City, not a relief road for those that do. If you take a look at the plans this becomes blindingly obvious so I suggest that you do.

If you want to find something to fight to cryptically push cycling I'm sure you've got something else on your list that you might actually be on-point for.

Sponge Bob · 07-09-2011 12:28am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Several years ago I had a particular type of disc prolapse that meant

It means nothing apropos traffic and bypasses. Lots of traffic is left stuck in Galway because there is no choice.

Take that traffic out of the City and by all means deal ruthlessly with the remainder but stop pretending that cycling will solve anything, bypass or no bypass. it is but a lifestyle choice for some that is all.

But for now I hate Galway City and Galway traffic and the sheer waste of time involved and yet I cannot avoid it.

It used to be just as bad before the bridge opened in 1985 mind but it was Ok from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s.

This time bypass it properly and don't let any ****ing cyclists on the new road either.

Iwannahurl · 07-09-2011 12:38am

MYOB wrote: »

In Galway? Galways weather is proveably rather worse than Dublins.

Those who can feasibly cycle to work are not those who will benefit from the GCOB as has been pointed out over and over. The GCOB is a bypass for those who do not need to be in or forced around the outside of Galway City, not a relief road for those that do. If you take a look at the plans this becomes blindingly obvious so I suggest that you do.

If you want to find something to fight to cryptically push cycling I'm sure you've got something else on your list that you might actually be on-point for.

MYOB wrote: »

Very little of that traffic will be heading in to the actual city. A lot of it will be heading to the industrial areas in Oranmore, Renmore and so on. Currently the existing "bypass" is an S4 with underspecced roundabouts from the N17 east until it becomes D2 with underspecced (and in one case a downright badly designed) roundabout junctions to these areas.

Some is likely to be heading west, and west from the N17/existing 'bypass' junction is even worse, being an S4 which closely hugs the city through a number of underspecced roundabouts with numerous 90 degree turn movements. Take in to account that the logical way to get west of the Corrib from Claregalway takes you on to this barely-a-bypass.

Those heading in to the city aren't going to get much benefit but the bulk of them who are heading to anywhere but the city are.
Any traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass - and QBCs, cycle facilities etc are definitely part of the mix required for the city.

The bypass is needed as a bypass. Not a relief road for the city, it already has that, except its expected to carry masses of traffic around the city.

I had a (necessarily quick) look again at some GCOB promotional material.

Lots of references to strategies such as the NSS, NDP, Transport21 etc in the brochure, but not much detail in the material I found re traffic reduction in the city.

This map illustrates the point you are making: the GCOB is a bypass, not a relief road.

Engineers Ireland seems to say that it is both:

The GCOB will facilitate the development of the Smarter Travel Plan in Galway City by removing traffic and enabling the provision of efficient public transport options. The GCOB is also important to areas to the west of Galway City as it will facilitate the sustainable development of the Connemara area and improve access to Connemara to help build tourism.

Curiously, Galway City Council seems to suggest in its recent development plan that the GCOB may well help get traffic into the city:

The proposed Galway City Outer Bypass will increase accessibility into the city and improve the performance of the inner city radial network.

Galway Chamber of Commerce envisions

an integrated transport plan for Galway City and County, incorporating the Galway City Outer Bypass and quality public transport including bus corridors, cycle lanes, park and ride facilities and commuter rail.

The need to tackle car dependence was highlighted nearly ten years ago in the Galway Transportation & Planning Study (2002). Incidentally the GTPS did not identify the lack of a Galway City Outer Bypass as the major cause of transportation problems. Rather the "severe traffic congestion" was the result of poor spatial and strategic planning, coupled with "sporadic and uncoordinated development within the rural hinterlands of Galway City and County".

The Galway Metropolitan Smarter Travel Area Action Plan 2010-2015 includes both the GCOB and a suite of measures to promote cycling, walking, public transport etc. In the report the total population of the GMSTA is stated as 85,640 (2006 Census). According to the Action Plan, "47% of the GMSTA population travels 4km or less to work or education each day".

Clearly there are more than a few people who want to "push" cycling -- "cryptically" or otherwise -- in the context of the GCOB and related transportation strategies.

Iwannahurl · 07-09-2011 12:49am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It means nothing apropos traffic and bypasses. Lots of traffic is left stuck in Galway because there is no choice.

Take that traffic out of the City and by all means deal ruthlessly with the remainder but stop pretending that cycling will solve anything, bypass or no bypass. it is but a lifestyle choice for some that is all.

But for now I hate Galway City and Galway traffic and the sheer waste of time involved and yet I cannot avoid it.

It used to be just as bad before the bridge opened in 1985 mind but it was Ok from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s.

This time bypass it properly and don't let any ****ing cyclists on the new road either.

I made my choice and cycled in Galway in all sorts of weather. There was no waste of time, compared to the car commuters I encountered. My commute took pretty much the same length of time every day, regardless of traffic conditions or weather. The reward for my efforts (not trivial, I accept) was increased fitness and the pleasure of sailing past stalled traffic.

It would appear that I hate being stuck in traffic even more than you do, since I simply could not tolerate the idea of participating in such folly every day.

I don't hate cyclists as much as you seem to, though. Therefore I was interested to read somewhere recently, I think, that the GCOB will accommodate cyclists. Maybe I've got that wrong -- can't find a link just now.

Sponge Bob · 07-09-2011 12:53am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Therefore I was interested to read somewhere recently, I think, that the GCOB will accommodate cyclists. Maybe I've got that wrong -- can't find a link just now.

Hopefully you have it very wrong. Cycling is a city thing or a tourist thing, the bypass is meant for those who need to move around.

Iwannahurl · 07-09-2011 12:58am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Hopefully you have it very wrong. Cycling is a city thing or a tourist thing, the bypass is meant for those who need to move around.

Don't tourists need to move around? Cycle tourism is worth a few bob to the economy. Except that Failte Ireland excluded Galway from its €30 million cycle tourism promotion because of the cycle-hostile conditions facing cyclists who wish to pass through the city...

dubhthach · 07-09-2011 8:33am

It's illegal to cycle on a motorway, the GCOB is Motorway standard from M6 over to past the N59.

For cycle tourists the project that will benefit them will be the reopening of the Galway - Cliftden railway line as a Greenway (which is currently under proposal), of course if they are doing this they should build a pedestrian/cyclist bridge on the site of the old railway bridge. Result Woodquay to Cliftden route for cyclists.

07-09-2011 9:04am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

That's too absolute, IMO.

Let's just imagine for argument's sake that (a) all private car journeys of 4 km or less can be replaced by other travel modes, and (b) that a 1973-type oil crisis occurs overnight.

Do you think that people would have absolutely no choice other than to hop into their car and drive alone to work or education?

A free park-n-ride and congestion charging would do it!

Iwannahurl · 07-09-2011 9:44am

dubhthach wrote: »

It's illegal to cycle on a motorway, the GCOB is Motorway standard from M6 over to past the N59.

For cycle tourists the project that will benefit them will be the reopening of the Galway - Cliftden railway line as a Greenway (which is currently under proposal), of course if they are doing this they should build a pedestrian/cyclist bridge on the site of the old railway bridge. Result Woodquay to Cliftden route for cyclists.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that NUIG are doing a feasibility study on a Galway-Clifden Greenway. I hope they remember to include grade separation where it crosses the proposed GCOB route!

Sponge Bob · 07-09-2011 10:01am

It should be tunneled under the Bypass in Bushypark, have you checked whether provision was ever made for such a tunnel ????

antoobrien · 07-09-2011 11:14am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How many people are crossing the city?

In what directions?

What is their means of travel?

What are the occupancy rates of their mode of travel?

What is the purpose of their trips?

What is the breakdown of the distances travelled?

All that is available in the city based study I highlighted earlier. It's interesting to note that motorists (i.e. people that claim to drive themselves or others) are outnumbered by the people who claim not to use cars (i.e. pedestrians, cyclists, bus, train & other). The use of train (especially as they're going to at least athenry) 0.2% and 0.5% motorbike are so small as to be statistically irrelevant.

Edit
With a little digging through the 2006 census there are about 5,500 school children & college students in this figure (see tables 39, 40 & 41).
With a little digging through the 2006 census there are about 5,500 school children & college students counted in the 7,877 car passengers. See tables 39, 40 & 41).

It's also worth considering the maps in appendix 1 of the Smarter Travel submission GCC made to the government.

The first is the commuter areas (page 9) from which people travel to Galway city. As you can see it's quite large.
6034073

For some reason I can't attach the second screenshot, so take a look at page 19 for a map of the Average Annual Daily Trips along each route showing the trips by all vehicles (not just cars). Unlike the study and NRA figures I referenced before (which aggregate trips in both directions) this shows the splits as to what is traveling along each road on average every day across the year. The cross town routes show significant traffic flow. Case for a bypass - i think so.

In the meantime, can you explain to me (an infrastructure non-expert) how the GCOB would be of benefit to the occupants of the thousands of vehicles approaching Galway City from the Claregalway/Tuam direction?

In a word: distribution.

Zubeneschamali · 07-09-2011 12:17pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Galway-Clifden Greenway. I hope they remember to include grade separation where it crosses the proposed GCOB route!

It'd be very close to the Western side of the new bridge, where the bypass and the old railway are almost parallel, maybe where the railway alignment crosses onto that Glenlo pitch and putt golf course.

dubhthach · 07-09-2011 12:35pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It'd be very close to the Western side of the new bridge, where the bypass and the old railway are almost parallel, maybe where the railway alignment crosses onto that Glenlo pitch and putt golf course.

The proposed bridge is 457metres wide. The river span is 150metres, plan would be to have two "land spans" on either bank of ~150metres so as to reduce affect on river banks (ecology etc.), the greenway could be routed under the west span. However I would think the best option would be just put in a service "tunnel" at this point through the road embankment.

Personally I think the Greenway will be great, of course one could argue that the stretch of the railway in NUIG campus is already a greenway from new Engineering Building <-> Dangan. There have been several proposals over the years to put a pedestrian bridge on the "railway pillars" I would think it provide extra options for both pedestrians and cyclists to get across the river.

Iwannahurl · 07-09-2011 1:06pm

dubhthach wrote: »

The proposed bridge is 457metres wide. The river span is 150metres, plan would be to have two "land spans" on either bank of ~150metres so as to reduce affect on river banks (ecology etc.), the greenway could be routed under the west span. However I would think the best option would be just put in a service "tunnel" at this point through the road embankment.

Personally I think the Greenway will be great, of course one could argue that the stretch of the railway in NUIG campus is already a greenway from new Engineering Building <-> Dangan. There have been several proposals over the years to put a pedestrian bridge on the "railway pillars" I would think it provide extra options for both pedestrians and cyclists to get across the river.

Full page feature in the City Tribune on the greenway in Mayo. By all accounts it is super popular. Tribune article also stated that planning applications will be submitted very soon for the Galway-Clifden greenway, which is to be developed in stages starting from the Clifden end.

No reason why such infrastructure can't co-exist with motorways and bypasses. However, its primary function will be leisure (although it does offer a cycle commuting option to city workers living in the Moyciullen area) and no meaningful and sustainable solution to Galway City's traffic problems can be achieved without significant modal shift away from daily car use.

Iwannahurl · 07-09-2011 1:33pm

antoobrien wrote: »

All that is available in the city based study I highlighted earlier. It's interesting to note that motorists (i.e. people that claim to drive themselves or others) are outnumbered by the people who claim not to use cars (i.e. pedestrians, cyclists, bus, train & other). The use of train (especially as they're going to at least athenry) 0.2% and 0.5% motorbike are so small as to be statistically irrelevant.

Edit
With a little digging through the 2006 census there are about 5,500 school children & college students in this figure (see tables 39, 40 & 41).
With a little digging through the 2006 census there are about 5,500 school children & college students counted in the 7,877 car passengers. See tables 39, 40 & 41).

It's also worth considering the maps in appendix 1 of the Smarter Travel submission GCC made to the government.

The first is the commuter areas (page 9) from which people travel to Galway city. As you can see it's quite large.

For some reason I can't attach the second screenshot, so take a look at page 19 for a map of the Average Annual Daily Trips along each route showing the trips by all vehicles (not just cars). Unlike the study and NRA figures I referenced before (which aggregate trips in both directions) this shows the splits as to what is traveling along each road on average every day across the year. The cross town routes show significant traffic flow. Case for a bypass - i think so.

In a word: distribution.

I'm on a little netbook again so I can't physically see the Smarter Travel Appendix 1 maps.

With regard to cross town routes, any potential traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass.

As for car traffic coming from the rural hinterland outside the GMSTA, this map shows clearly that car users are travelling from widely dispersed settlements, most likely from huge numbers of one-off houses in County Galway mainly, but also Mayo, Roscommon and Clare.

So, the lead authority for the GCOB is Galway Co Co, and they have consciously locked the citizenry into long-term car dependence. They want the Bypass to alleviate traffic problems they helped to create!

Here's another aspect where I believe scepticism is justified: sporadic, uncoordinated, car-dependent and unsustainable development (as acknowledged by both local authorities in Galway) has led to severe traffic congestion.

We build a bypass, at a cost to the taxpayer of c. €300 million, partly to accommodate all the rural* car dependants.

Once the GCOB is in place, and in the context of Ireland's and especially County Galway's "planning" record, what is the risk of future sporadic, uncoordinated, car-dependent and unsustainable development -- and associated traffic generation -- given that the GCOB is meant to make such rural commuting easier?

*I mean rural dwelling, of course.

antoobrien · 07-09-2011 1:56pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm on a little netbook again so I can't physically see the Smarter Travel Appendix 1 maps.

Conveniently the file is a pdf (you should know this because you like referring to the set of same documents) - Acrobat Reader does have a zoom function for quite a while now.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

With regard to cross town routes, any potential traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass.

So you don't believe that if motorists have the option of not going through the center of a city and traveling at slower speeds, costing them more money they won't take it?

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So, the lead authority for the GCOB is Galway Co Co, and they have consciously locked the citizenry into long-term car dependence. They want the Bypass to alleviate traffic problems they helped to create!

Not really, that would be BE & IR, who fail to put in place any PT alternatives.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

We build a bypass, at a cost to the taxpayer of c. €300 million, partly to accommodate all the rural* car dependants.

Ah, so the head is out of the sand, you acknowledge that the city traffic problems are not all due to the 40% of trips of 0-4 km distances - when you consider that 26% of people walk (I know 1 person in Galway & Dublin that will walk more than 4km to work/school - me) that always seemed rather like grasping at straws.

Oh by the way, the lack of planning in the city is more than partially responsible for the mess - why not run and try to sort it out?

kiwipower · 07-09-2011 2:03pm

@Iwwanahul.
Do you have a specific solution in mind that would suit all members of the community? As an Individual (like many) I am sometimes a motorist who drives, sometimes a motorist as a passenger, sometimes a cyclist, sometimes a pedestrian and sometimes a user of public transport. Therefore I would be interested in any solution you can see that facilitates all forms of transportation.

Though I will admit since I moved to Limerick I have been mainly a sole motorist on my journeys to work on the grounds of the UHG.

I have tried the Train, it is expensive, the times are inconvenient and it take nearly twice as long, and only get me as far as Eyre Square, I cant bring my bike so I cant get to work on time. Even when I drove to Ennis to catch it, I was leaving home to early under to much pressure.

There is no bus available at a suitable time for me.

I cant car-pool as I am not regularly in Galway, could be there 1 day this week, 5 the next.

I do not know of somewhere suitable on the east-side of Galway I could leave my car and Safely cycle or take public transport (at suitable times) in and out of the UHG.

I say safely cycle as I missed over 6 weeks of work once when I was knocked of my cycle by a car passing me coming up to a Red Light at Cooks Corner on Marys Road trying to get to work one morning when staying in Salthill.

At present I can only see that the benefit out ways the cost of the development of the Bypass/outer ring road. As it would facilitate taking a lot of the cross city traffic away from the built up areas. (I say this as a regular user of the Limerick Tunnel.) Then proper pedestrian, cycle and bus lanes can be included both in the city, and maybe attached to the bypass, great location for a GLUS!

As for roundabouts in the city, maybe the inclusion of Pedestrian&Cycle Crossings (using a combination of lights, zebra crossings, Over or Under passes) about 100-200 meters from each junction around roundabouts would be of use?

Zubeneschamali · 07-09-2011 2:07pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Tribune article also stated that planning applications will be submitted very soon for the Galway-Clifden greenway, which is to be developed in stages starting from the Clifden end.

I've come across the railway alignment in a few places: near Maam Cross, behind the main street in Oughterard, In the woods at Rosscahill. Looking at Google maps, the vast majority of the alignment seems to be still clear, although it closed in the 1930s.

It's really only in Galway city that it has been lost.

L1011 · 07-09-2011 5:22pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm on a little netbook again so I can't physically see the Smarter Travel Appendix 1 maps

Adobe has scroll bars. I do much of my posting on a 1024x600 netbook.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So, the lead authority for the GCOB is Galway Co Co, and they have consciously locked the citizenry into long-term car dependence. They want the Bypass to alleviate traffic problems they helped to create!

Connemara etc need a safe and speed-reliable route to beyond Galway (be it Dublin or indeed anywhere), probably better to state they need a safe and speed reliable route to east of the Corrib.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

We build a bypass, at a cost to the taxpayer of c. €300 million, partly to accommodate all the rural* car dependants.

*I mean rural dwelling, of course.

[/QUOTE]

Knocknacarra isn't rural. Barna is a substantial enough town, as is Spiddal. Oughterard and Moycullen are bigger again and there is a fair amount of specialised industry in these areas - ranging from biochem, to fire engine manufacture, to radiators.

These areas are not car dependent in and of themselves but due to there being extremely poor public transport - something made worse by how poor the roads are - they are.

Those in one-off houses can get lost, but there are more than enough actually sustainable towns and villages/communities beyond those. This isn't required because of bungalow blight but because of actual places with groups of people, industries, tourism etc.

Iwannahurl · 07-09-2011 7:09pm

antoobrien wrote: »

Conveniently the file is a pdf (you should know this because you like referring to the set of same documents) - Acrobat Reader does have a zoom function for quite a while now.

MYOB wrote: »

Adobe has scroll bars. I do much of my posting on a 1024x600 netbook.

Dear oh dear. Such peevish and pedantic point-scoring and nitpicking about extraneous details.

Are you psychically able to draw conclusions about the state of my eyesight?

I was merely making the point that I was finding it difficult on the netbook to see the more detailed Smarter Travel maps. I could of course zoom in to the relevant sections, IF I could see where to click!

In any case, IIRC the other map -- the legend for which I could just about see -- illustrated a similar point regarding the origins of traffic entering the city from the rural hinterland.

I'll look at the Smarter Travel data on my PC later. I don't recall having seen the Appendix 1 previously.

L1011 · 07-09-2011 7:12pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Dear oh dear. Such peevish and pedantic point-scoring and nitpicking about extraneous details.

Just pointing out that there was nothing preventing you from getting to said content on a netbook. Seeing as its rather important content in showing you things you need to be shown.

Iwannahurl · 07-09-2011 7:26pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

With regard to cross town routes, any potential traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass.

antoobrien wrote: »

So you don't believe that if motorists have the option of not going through the center of a city and traveling at slower speeds, costing them more money they won't take it?

Perhaps the person who made the comment originally might care to answer that question.

MYOB wrote: »

[...]

Any traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass.

[...]

The bypass is needed as a bypass. Not a relief road for the city, it already has that, except its expected to carry masses of traffic around the city.

I was being slightly mischievous of course, but now that this point has been raised I'd be interested to hear what the GCOB proponents have to say about it.

M6 - is the Galway Bypass necessary? (thread split)

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