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M6 - is the Galway Bypass necessary? (thread split)

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    #62
    TheUsual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭TheUsual


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    That's Park & Ride, then, not free parking.

    In which case, I wonder how a P&R should be funded?

    I'd be in favour of making driving into the city to park (esp on streets) more expensive than parking outside. At the moment a large aount of parkig in the city is effectively free, due to a deliberate laissez faire policy on the part of the local authority and AGS.

    No I say free otherwise people won't use it everyday.

    Funding advantage is not having to build new roads , even if it is at a loss.
    The DART (Dublin area rapid transport) has never made a profit. But think of the savings to the country in terms of infrastructure. It is the way to think, getting people to work even if you don't make a profit.


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    #63
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    IMO, the issue is one of trust in the "Planners". Galway City Council and others

    No need to worry then as this isn't a Galway City Council project, the County Council are lead local authority.

    Waiting for the abuse....


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    #64
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    dubhthach wrote: »
    If you are driving from Wellpark to Salthill there are no roundabouts, however it can still take 45mins to 1 hour in rush hour (well it did in 2007), all traffic on this root gets funnelled into the Wolfe Tone bridge.

    As for local knowledge I haven't lived in Galway since 2007 however I'm a city native and lived, went to university and started my working career there.



    Wellpark to Salthill: just over 4 km, or less than an hour's walk, according to Google Maps.

    Some years ago I regularly travelled that very same link, as part of a longer cycle commute. Never took me more than 15 minutes or so, even in "rush" hour.

    Some say the GCOB is a no brainer. How can sitting in ones car for as long as it would take to walk the same distance, or for at least three times as long as it would take to cycle, apparently be regarded (by many?) as a no brainer also?


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    #65
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    antoobrien wrote: »
    No need to worry then as this isn't a Galway City Council project, the County Council are lead local authority.

    Waiting for the abuse....

    Well it helps that nearly all of the route is outside the City boundary (apart from around Menlo


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    #66
    TheUsual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭TheUsual


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    That's Park & Ride, then, not free parking.

    In which case, I wonder how a P&R should be funded?

    I'd be in favour of making driving into the city to park (esp on streets) more expensive than parking outside. At the moment a large aount of parkig in the city is effectively free, due to a deliberate laissez faire policy on the part of the local authority and AGS.


    Free, all free.

    What you lose on the buses and that you make up for in business and tourists that get around quicker. Then maybe charge the day-trippers and van-drivers to pay for some of it, but it does not have to make a profit.


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    #67
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    No need to worry then as this isn't a Galway City Council project, the County Council are lead local authority.

    Waiting for the abuse....



    Co Co HQ is in the city. How many of their employees live in the city? I'd say the Co Co is in favour of the GCOB for all sorts of reasons, not least to alleviate the traffic congestion they have caused with their misguided "planning" policies.

    Or "planning" practices, I should say, since they apparently ignored their own policies when approving all that one-off housing and unsustainable urban development in the middle of nowhere.


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    #68
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Wellpark to Salthill: just over 4 km, or less than an hour's walk, according to Google Maps.

    Some years ago I regularly travelled that very same link, as part of a longer cycle commute. Never took me more than 15 minutes or so, even in "rush" hour.

    Some say the GCOB is a no brainer. How can sitting in ones car for as long as it would take to walk the same distance, or for at least three times as long as it would take to cycle, apparently be regarded (by many?) as a no brainer also?

    4km's from where to where? The Village to the Eye Cinema?, Salthill stretches from Pollnarooma in the West to Grattan beach. Likewise Wellpark goes all the way up to former Crown Paints plant.

    Not everyone can bomb along on the bicycle for example I've been told by doctors that I can only "leisure cycle" having a Discectomy on your lower back does that to you.

    Walking two hours a day in winter in Galway no thanks.


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    #69
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    dubhthach wrote: »
    4km's from where to where? The Village to the Eye Cinema?, Salthill stretches from Pollnarooma in the West to Grattan beach. Likewise Wellpark goes all the way up to former Crown Paints plant.

    Not everyone can bomb along on the bicycle for example I've been told by doctors that I can only "leisure cycle" having a Discectomy on your lower back does that to you.

    Walking two hours a day in winter in Galway no thanks.





    "It can still take 45mins to 1 hour in rush hour" from where to where?

    I sympathise on the lower back problems. Several years ago I had a particular type of disc prolapse that meant I had to kneel at my desk because I couldn't sit. Cured it with physio and exercise (gym initially).

    Regular use of the car was a big aggravating factor. Switched to the bike, after a few years absence, and haven't looked back since. As the fellow said when he got a crick in his neck.

    I wouldn't commute on foot two hours a day at any time of year. The reason I mentioned it at all in response to your post was that walking the route you alluded to would take approximately as long as it was taking you to drive.

    This is a phenomenon that I simply can't get my head around. Traffic congestion is the #1 complaint in Galway City, yet hordes of motorists would prefer to sit in their cars than spend the same -- or much less -- time travelling the same distance on foot or by bike. Do all of them "need" to travel by car? And alone?


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    #70
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    How many of their employees live in the city?

    Wrong question - how many people employed in the city do not live in the city?

    Answer: enough that cycling, PT and P&R won't scratch the problem.

    How long can we ignore the fact that there are on average 35k vehicles every day approaching Galway from Claregalway & Glennascaul (figures which don't include the traffic from south Co Galway, the Headfrod Rd and the Claregalway rat runs btw)?

    That dwarfs the 18k trips (along with their 8k passengers) that are made by motorists either to work or education within the city boundaries per the study based on the 2006 census.


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    #71
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    How can sitting in ones car for as long as it would take to walk the same distance, or for at least three times as long as it would take to cycle, apparently be regarded (by many?) as a no brainer also?

    For much of the year, that 4km is more of a swim than a walk, with horizontal rain blowing across the tundra at fridge temperatures. No thanks.


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    #72
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    1. The cycle campaign does not have a stated position on the bypass. This is somewhat curious as normally a bypass would be an obvious measure to improve cycling conditions in a city.

    2. If those in favour if the bypass want the support of other interest groups then they would want to start putting something on the table. Instead they want to keep the roundabouts, they are opposed to speed management, they oppose permeability improvements and seek to shut down existing access for cyclist and pedestrians, they oppose HGV management, they oppose tackling the one way streets.

    In short the intent of the GCOBs proponents appears to be to make the city more dangerous and inconvenient cyclists and pedestrians rather than less.

    Why would anyone expect the support of cyclists for that? Its a ludicrous idea.

    Your problem is with traffic within the city and roundabouts (its ok i hate em too),
    The bypass would take cars out of the city right now anyone wishing to cross the river either goes on the quncentenneal bridge or has to go thru the very heart of city in closer contact with pedestrians and cyclists often on narrow roads/bridges

    there simply is no alternative to get from one side to the other


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    #73
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    In short the intent of the GCOBs proponents appears to be to make the city more dangerous and inconvenient cyclists and pedestrians rather than less.
    On what basis have you formed this opinion?

    Edit: Mods at this stage we should either rename the thread to "GCOB: required or not" or split out this discussion ala the M17/18 thread. Or I can start a new one.


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    #74
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,126 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    In short the intent of the GCOBs proponents appears to be to make the city more dangerous and inconvenient cyclists and pedestrians rather than less.

    What on earth are you twisting to extrapolate that from??


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    #75
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Wrong question -

    how many people employed in the city do not live in the city?



    No. My earlier remark was about the possible attitudes of Galway Co Co personnel to the GCOB. Do you think it unlikely that people in the public service might be strongly motivated by their own self-interest?


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    #76
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Wrong question - how many people employed in the city do not live in the city?

    Answer: enough that cycling, PT and P&R won't scratch the problem.

    How long can we ignore the fact that there are on average 35k vehicles every day approaching Galway from Claregalway & Glennascaul (figures which don't include the traffic from south Co Galway, the Headfrod Rd and the Claregalway rat runs btw)?

    That dwarfs the 18k trips (along with their 8k passengers) that are made by motorists either to work or education within the city boundaries per the study based on the 2006 census.



    I'll have a look at the second study when I'm on a PC with a larger screen (can't see it on the wee netbook I'm using just now).

    In the meantime, can you explain to me (an infrastructure non-expert) how the GCOB would be of benefit to the occupants of the thousands of vehicles approaching Galway City from the Claregalway/Tuam direction?

    Also, it is often said that most of the traffic originating in residential areas west of the city is heading to the east where the jobs are. So where is the traffic from Claregalway and Glennascaul heading?

    Data regarding origin, destination, vehicle occupancy rates and purpose of trip are as important as simple vehicle counts, I would also suggest.


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    #77
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Your problem is with traffic within the city and roundabouts (its ok i hate em too),
    The bypass would take cars out of the city right now anyone wishing to cross the river either goes on the quncentenneal bridge or has to go thru the very heart of city in closer contact with pedestrians and cyclists often on narrow roads/bridges

    there simply is no alternative to get from one side to the other


    How many people are crossing the city?

    In what directions?

    What is their means of travel?

    What are the occupancy rates of their mode of travel?

    What is the purpose of their trips?

    What is the breakdown of the distances travelled?

    All questions relevant to the business case for a bypass, I would guess.


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    #78
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,126 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    In the meantime, can you explain to me (an infrastructure non-expert) how the GCOB would be of benefit to the occupants of the thousands of vehicles approaching Galway City from the Claregalway/Tuam direction?

    Also, it is often said that most of the traffic originating in residential areas west of the city is heading to the east where the jobs are. So where is the traffic from Claregalway and Glennascaul heading?

    Very little of that traffic will be heading in to the actual city. A lot of it will be heading to the industrial areas in Oranmore, Renmore and so on. Currently the existing "bypass" is an S4 with underspecced roundabouts from the N17 east until it becomes D2 with underspecced (and in one case a downright badly designed) roundabout junctions to these areas.

    Some is likely to be heading west, and west from the N17/existing 'bypass' junction is even worse, being an S4 which closely hugs the city through a number of underspecced roundabouts with numerous 90 degree turn movements. Take in to account that the logical way to get west of the Corrib from Claregalway takes you on to this barely-a-bypass.

    Those heading in to the city aren't going to get much benefit but the bulk of them who are heading to anywhere but the city are.
    Any traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass - and QBCs, cycle facilities etc are definitely part of the mix required for the city.

    The bypass is needed as a bypass. Not a relief road for the city, it already has that, except its expected to carry masses of traffic around the city.


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    #79
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    For much of the year, that 4km is more of a swim than a walk, with horizontal rain blowing across the tundra at fridge temperatures. No thanks.




    That's exaggeration. I know, because I cycle all year round.

    So, is an additional function of the GCOB therefore to keep people nice and cosy in their cars?

    It is not environmentally sustainable to promote road and car transport as the major long-term mode of passenger transport, especially in urban areas.


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    #80
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,126 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    That's exaggeration. I know, because I cycle all year round.

    In Galway? Galways weather is proveably rather worse than Dublins.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    So, is an additional function of the GCOB therefore to keep people nice and cosy in their cars?

    Those who can feasibly cycle to work are not those who will benefit from the GCOB as has been pointed out over and over. The GCOB is a bypass for those who do not need to be in or forced around the outside of Galway City, not a relief road for those that do. If you take a look at the plans this becomes blindingly obvious so I suggest that you do.

    If you want to find something to fight to cryptically push cycling I'm sure you've got something else on your list that you might actually be on-point for.


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    #81
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Several years ago I had a particular type of disc prolapse that meant
    It means nothing apropos traffic and bypasses. Lots of traffic is left stuck in Galway because there is no choice.

    Take that traffic out of the City and by all means deal ruthlessly with the remainder but stop pretending that cycling will solve anything, bypass or no bypass. it is but a lifestyle choice for some that is all.

    But for now I hate Galway City and Galway traffic and the sheer waste of time involved and yet I cannot avoid it.

    It used to be just as bad before the bridge opened in 1985 mind but it was Ok from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s.

    This time bypass it properly and don't let any ****ing cyclists on the new road either.


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    #82
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    MYOB wrote: »
    In Galway? Galways weather is proveably rather worse than Dublins.

    Those who can feasibly cycle to work are not those who will benefit from the GCOB as has been pointed out over and over. The GCOB is a bypass for those who do not need to be in or forced around the outside of Galway City, not a relief road for those that do. If you take a look at the plans this becomes blindingly obvious so I suggest that you do.

    If you want to find something to fight to cryptically push cycling I'm sure you've got something else on your list that you might actually be on-point for.

    MYOB wrote: »
    Very little of that traffic will be heading in to the actual city. A lot of it will be heading to the industrial areas in Oranmore, Renmore and so on. Currently the existing "bypass" is an S4 with underspecced roundabouts from the N17 east until it becomes D2 with underspecced (and in one case a downright badly designed) roundabout junctions to these areas.

    Some is likely to be heading west, and west from the N17/existing 'bypass' junction is even worse, being an S4 which closely hugs the city through a number of underspecced roundabouts with numerous 90 degree turn movements. Take in to account that the logical way to get west of the Corrib from Claregalway takes you on to this barely-a-bypass.

    Those heading in to the city aren't going to get much benefit but the bulk of them who are heading to anywhere but the city are.
    Any traffic improvements for the city are nearly entirely unconnected to the bypass - and QBCs, cycle facilities etc are definitely part of the mix required for the city.

    The bypass is needed as a bypass. Not a relief road for the city, it already has that, except its expected to carry masses of traffic around the city.



    I had a (necessarily quick) look again at some GCOB promotional material.

    Lots of references to strategies such as the NSS, NDP, Transport21 etc in the brochure, but not much detail in the material I found re traffic reduction in the city.

    This map illustrates the point you are making: the GCOB is a bypass, not a relief road.

    Engineers Ireland seems to say that it is both:
    The GCOB will facilitate the development of the Smarter Travel Plan in Galway City by removing traffic and enabling the provision of efficient public transport options. The GCOB is also important to areas to the west of Galway City as it will facilitate the sustainable development of the Connemara area and improve access to Connemara to help build tourism.
    Curiously, Galway City Council seems to suggest in its recent development plan that the GCOB may well help get traffic into the city:
    The proposed Galway City Outer Bypass will increase accessibility into the city and improve the performance of the inner city radial network.
    Galway Chamber of Commerce envisions
    an integrated transport plan for Galway City and County, incorporating the Galway City Outer Bypass and quality public transport including bus corridors, cycle lanes, park and ride facilities and commuter rail.
    The need to tackle car dependence was highlighted nearly ten years ago in the Galway Transportation & Planning Study (2002). Incidentally the GTPS did not identify the lack of a Galway City Outer Bypass as the major cause of transportation problems. Rather the "severe traffic congestion" was the result of poor spatial and strategic planning, coupled with "sporadic and uncoordinated development within the rural hinterlands of Galway City and County".

    The Galway Metropolitan Smarter Travel Area Action Plan 2010-2015 includes both the GCOB and a suite of measures to promote cycling, walking, public transport etc. In the report the total population of the GMSTA is stated as 85,640 (2006 Census). According to the Action Plan, "47% of the GMSTA population travels 4km or less to work or education each day".

    Clearly there are more than a few people who want to "push" cycling -- "cryptically" or otherwise -- in the context of the GCOB and related transportation strategies.


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    #83
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    It means nothing apropos traffic and bypasses. Lots of traffic is left stuck in Galway because there is no choice.

    Take that traffic out of the City and by all means deal ruthlessly with the remainder but stop pretending that cycling will solve anything, bypass or no bypass. it is but a lifestyle choice for some that is all.

    But for now I hate Galway City and Galway traffic and the sheer waste of time involved and yet I cannot avoid it.

    It used to be just as bad before the bridge opened in 1985 mind but it was Ok from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s.

    This time bypass it properly and don't let any ****ing cyclists on the new road either.



    I made my choice and cycled in Galway in all sorts of weather. There was no waste of time, compared to the car commuters I encountered. My commute took pretty much the same length of time every day, regardless of traffic conditions or weather. The reward for my efforts (not trivial, I accept) was increased fitness and the pleasure of sailing past stalled traffic.

    It would appear that I hate being stuck in traffic even more than you do, since I simply could not tolerate the idea of participating in such folly every day.

    I don't hate cyclists as much as you seem to, though. Therefore I was interested to read somewhere recently, I think, that the GCOB will accommodate cyclists. Maybe I've got that wrong -- can't find a link just now.


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    #84
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Therefore I was interested to read somewhere recently, I think, that the GCOB will accommodate cyclists. Maybe I've got that wrong -- can't find a link just now.
    Hopefully you have it very wrong. Cycling is a city thing or a tourist thing, the bypass is meant for those who need to move around.


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    #85
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Hopefully you have it very wrong. Cycling is a city thing or a tourist thing, the bypass is meant for those who need to move around.


    Don't tourists need to move around? Cycle tourism is worth a few bob to the economy. Except that Failte Ireland excluded Galway from its €30 million cycle tourism promotion because of the cycle-hostile conditions facing cyclists who wish to pass through the city...


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    #86
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    It's illegal to cycle on a motorway, the GCOB is Motorway standard from M6 over to past the N59.

    For cycle tourists the project that will benefit them will be the reopening of the Galway - Cliftden railway line as a Greenway (which is currently under proposal), of course if they are doing this they should build a pedestrian/cyclist bridge on the site of the old railway bridge. Result Woodquay to Cliftden route for cyclists.


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    #87
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    That's too absolute, IMO.

    Let's just imagine for argument's sake that (a) all private car journeys of 4 km or less can be replaced by other travel modes, and (b) that a 1973-type oil crisis occurs overnight.

    Do you think that people would have absolutely no choice other than to hop into their car and drive alone to work or education?

    A free park-n-ride and congestion charging would do it!


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    #88
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    dubhthach wrote: »
    It's illegal to cycle on a motorway, the GCOB is Motorway standard from M6 over to past the N59.

    For cycle tourists the project that will benefit them will be the reopening of the Galway - Cliftden railway line as a Greenway (which is currently under proposal), of course if they are doing this they should build a pedestrian/cyclist bridge on the site of the old railway bridge. Result Woodquay to Cliftden route for cyclists.



    I seem to recall reading somewhere that NUIG are doing a feasibility study on a Galway-Clifden Greenway. I hope they remember to include grade separation where it crosses the proposed GCOB route!


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    #89
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    It should be tunneled under the Bypass in Bushypark, have you checked whether provision was ever made for such a tunnel ????


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    #90
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    How many people are crossing the city?

    In what directions?

    What is their means of travel?

    What are the occupancy rates of their mode of travel?

    What is the purpose of their trips?

    What is the breakdown of the distances travelled?

    All that is available in the city based study I highlighted earlier. It's interesting to note that motorists (i.e. people that claim to drive themselves or others) are outnumbered by the people who claim not to use cars (i.e. pedestrians, cyclists, bus, train & other). The use of train (especially as they're going to at least athenry) 0.2% and 0.5% motorbike are so small as to be statistically irrelevant.

    Edit
    With a little digging through the 2006 census there are about 5,500 school children & college students in this figure (see tables 39, 40 & 41).
    With a little digging through the 2006 census there are about 5,500 school children & college students counted in the 7,877 car passengers. See tables 39, 40 & 41).

    It's also worth considering the maps in appendix 1 of the Smarter Travel submission GCC made to the government.

    The first is the commuter areas (page 9) from which people travel to Galway city. As you can see it's quite large.
    6034073

    For some reason I can't attach the second screenshot, so take a look at page 19 for a map of the Average Annual Daily Trips along each route showing the trips by all vehicles (not just cars). Unlike the study and NRA figures I referenced before (which aggregate trips in both directions) this shows the splits as to what is traveling along each road on average every day across the year. The cross town routes show significant traffic flow. Case for a bypass - i think so.
    In the meantime, can you explain to me (an infrastructure non-expert) how the GCOB would be of benefit to the occupants of the thousands of vehicles approaching Galway City from the Claregalway/Tuam direction?
    In a word: distribution.


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    #91
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Galway-Clifden Greenway. I hope they remember to include grade separation where it crosses the proposed GCOB route!

    It'd be very close to the Western side of the new bridge, where the bypass and the old railway are almost parallel, maybe where the railway alignment crosses onto that Glenlo pitch and putt golf course.


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