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Commissioner Callinan resigns with immediate effect
Comments
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This is shambolic, any senior public servants that dont leave before August face pension benefit reductions, Callinan now has 41 years so will depart with the max lump sum and benefits, all he needed was an excuse to leave early, now he can throw the grenade over his shoulder and not look back.
DC Noirin O'Sullivan for first lady boss chief?
He said something stupid and had to go. Would have been nice of him to apologise for it rather than leave the minister to do so on his own, would actually make him look better and wouldn't affect his benefits. As for retiring, he should be followed by Shatter, to be fair, given that he is pretty much totally incompetent.
If Callinan had done 41 years then he has 1 year more than the maximum for his lump sum. Even if someone is sacked for gross misconduct they shouldn't forfeit what's been earned up to that time, just future earnings. Given that pension contributions are directly proportional to the wage earned and that you have to serve minimum terms at a given wage before being allowed retire at that rate, I think the lump sums are fair enough.
As regards recent developments, I don't think it's possible to overstate the importance of the fact that it appears the government is using a non-issue (the idea that calls to Garda Stations were recorded) to smokescreen to whole thing, to try and further implicate Callinan probably moreso than he deserves, in an effort to bury the issue with his resignation, pacify the public and save Shatter's arse.
Dick move by the government, and normally I'd advocate voting elsewhere in the locals. Problem is, where the hell does one turn to when all four main parties are so utterly incompetent?0 -
We would never have heard a thing about these recordings if it wasn't for the fact that it was going to be brought up at this upcoming trial.0
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there needs to be an independent Garda authority set up.
they can oversee all the promotions and take them away from the political appointments they are currently.
AGS needs to be independent, they should not be too close to a government.
the Garda Authority ( or whatever you want to call it ) should also be there to recommend any improvements or changes to internal Garda policy.
they should also be responsible for looking after the Gardai, get whatever is needed to allow them to do their job properly.
equip the force correctly.
they can bring all these issues to government on behalf of AGS.
one problem (especially with Martin Callinan ) is that the commissioner is a government appointed position and as such, seems to side more with the minister for justice.
this independent authority should also have the ability to investigate complaints by Gardai, which GSOC cannot.
although, tbh, no matter what they do, or who is appointed anywhere, there will still believe that AGS is a corrupt organisation. they will still complain and find the slightest little thing that they dont agree with to put AGS down.
instead of appreciating the good honest members of AGS.
i woul have no problem with all you propose, but you don`t seem to realise that the impression the general public have of AGS come from the the MorrisTribunal, Smithwicks, (the findings ofwhich the head of AGS, Callinan, said he did not accept and would never accept), and nothing has apparently changed, with now penalty points, GSOC and phone calls bugged.
In fairness it`s not difficult to understand that the public now look on AGS as a force out of control, with a culture of protecting their own at all costs.
While all you propose is commendable, I`m afraid unless the public see a sea-change in the present percieved culture within AGS, unfortunately the present cynicism isn`t going away anytime soon.0 -
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Potential-Monke wrote: »And we (ie: frontline members) understand that. We just want the public to understand that the majority of members have no involvement in this. We go to work, do our job and hope to get home safe.
Prove it , We have been listening to 'the majority of members' for years, The fact is the majority of members may be as you say but they were not ignorant of what was going on and choose loyalty to the force rather than uphold their duty to the nation.
Start standing up for us and start speaking out and you might start to have some credibility0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »And we (ie: frontline members) understand that. We just want the public to understand that the majority of members have no involvement in this. We go to work, do our job and hope to get home safe.
I can fully understand that and appreciate that this is the case, but as i said unless the public see a sea-change from all that has gone on in the past, and apperantly no lessons learned, that cynicism is`nt going away.
The changes needed to alter that perception must to come from within AGS. At all levels.
Unfortunately the treatment of McCabe and Wilson from their own colleagues, (some of them on these boards?), doesn`t appear to auger well for that to date.0 -
Start standing up for us and start speaking out and you might start to have some credibility
I have nothing to speak out about. As i said, nothing like what is in the media goes on where i'm stationed. If it did, i would speak up, but as it stands i am not witness to anything so there is nothing i can do.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »I have nothing to speak out about. As i said, nothing like what is in the media goes on where i'm stationed. If it did, i would speak up, but as it stands i am not witness to anything so there is nothing i can do.
Good for you then, no taking a peek on Pulse to check out a neighbour or former boy/girlfriend ? No checking out a potential employee for a local businessman. No fixing the odd penalty points
And no knowledge of anyone else doing it either ? Might I ask how long are you in the force- 5 minutes ?0 -
Good for you then, no taking a peek on Pulse to check out a neighbour or former boy/girlfriend ? No checking out a potential employee for a local businessman. No fixing the odd penalty points
And no knowledge of anyone else doing it either ? Might I ask how long are you in the force- 5 minutes ?
No, no and no. I use pulse when it's work related, I would never give information about someone to a third party (Data Protection Act, kinda a big deal), and i can't "fix" penalty points - they're put on by a completely separate organisation!
And Pulse gets checked by thousands of members per day, want to me stop and question each of them to see what they're doing? And 6 years is the answer. Is it that hard to believe that the scandal is not as widespread as the media make it out to be?
Actually, don't bother answering, you've your mind made up and nothing will change it.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »I would never give information about someone to a third party (Data Protection Act, kinda a big deal).
Just on that score, the Data Protection Act was "a big deal" during the recent whistleblower controversy.
However, it does seem anomalous that data protection legislation dating back to 1988 would be taken so seriously by AGS, yet phone calls at all Divisional Headquarters would be recorded without consent, and apparently without the knowledge of officers up to the rank of Inspector.
I have heard senior legal people in radio interviews saying that the taping is an even bigger deal, with possible implications in terms of people's constitutional rights.0 -
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Potential-Monke wrote: »No, no and no. I use pulse when it's work related, I would never give information about someone to a third party (Data Protection Act, kinda a big deal), and i can't "fix" penalty points - they're put on by a completely separate organisation!
And Pulse gets checked by thousands of members per day, want to me stop and question each of them to see what they're doing? And 6 years is the answer. Is it that hard to believe that the scandal is not as widespread as the media make it out to be?
Actually, don't bother answering, you've your mind made up and nothing will change it.
Fair play to you P.M. for putting the case for the majority, who leave home, work, and go home. Never mind the begrudgers.0 -
Good for you then, no taking a peek on Pulse to check out a neighbour or former boy/girlfriend ? No checking out a potential employee for a local businessman. No fixing the odd penalty points
And no knowledge of anyone else doing it either ? Might I ask how long are you in the force- 5 minutes ?
Rank and file gardai cannot access the penalty point system, never mind "fix" points. But being such an expert on internal workings of AGS you knew that already, didn't you?0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »No, no and no. I use pulse when it's work related, I would never give information about someone to a third party (Data Protection Act, kinda a big deal), and i can't "fix" penalty points - they're put on by a completely separate organisation!
And Pulse gets checked by thousands of members per day, want to me stop and question each of them to see what they're doing? And 6 years is the answer. Is it that hard to believe that the scandal is not as widespread as the media make it out to be?
Actually, don't bother answering, you've your mind made up and nothing will change it.
As you have made you mind up I for the sake of the rest of us I hope something will change it.
Don't you get that it is really isn't up to you to tell us how good you are or dedicated you are ? We have been hearing that year after year as the force has lurched from cover up to crisis to cover up and so we are where we are.
AGs have lost the confidence of citizens and only AGS can regain it , and no poor me will cut it. If you don't see that then ye really are an inward looking organisation.
As for me making up my mind , when you start loosing the older demographic you really should stop and think .0 -
Dermot Illogical wrote: »Rank and file gardai cannot access the penalty point system, never mind "fix" points. But being such an expert on internal workings of AGS you knew that already, didn't you?
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Gardai either did it or had someone do it or knew it was being done.
Stop the smart arse comments, what is the relevance of what I know ? AGS were fixing points on an industrial scale - what more do I need to know0 -
Dermot Illogical wrote: »But being such an expert on internal workings of AGS you knew that already, didn't you?
Lauding it over the general public for not knowing the internal workings of AGS is not really enlarging your cause.....0 -
AGs have lost the confidence of citizens and only AGS can regain it , and no poor me will cut it. If you don't see that then ye really are an inward looking organisation.
The problem here is that rank and file gardai are not responsible for the current crises.
Tickets being cancelled? By inspector rank and above. I myself have two points on my licence.
Phonelines in stations being recorded? Definitely no rank & file gardai involved in that decision.
You have to understand that for ordinary members doing their job every day, its very hard to take abuse over and over, when you really had no input in the f##k ups.
AGS has always been too attached to politics. And politicians want it that way.
They can manipulate senior management. Don't toe the 'party' line? Then forget about your career.
Representative associations have been calling for 30 years for an independent authority. The public were not interested & obviously the politicians didn't want it as it wouldn't suit their needs.
Maybe now the public might actually back the gardai on this.
We all want accountability and a process for investigating problems within AGS.0 -
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Gardai either did it or had someone do it or knew it was being done.
Stop the smart arse comments, what is the relevance of what I know ? AGS were fixing points on an industrial scale - what more do I need to know
You're coming on here making wild allegations so I just though I should highlight the fact that you're doing it from a position of ignorance.
There's plenty wrong in AGS, and in many ways it's a dysfunctional organisation, but misplaced criticism is polarizing and probably counter-productive.
You're sniping at a member of AGS over flaws in a system which that member has no dealings with or control over.
Here's the problem with the PP system and AGS:
Govt elected by us legislated that PP system be put in place. Free up courts yadda yadda..
In a typical Irish solution they allowed a system where points wrongly-assigned could be removed from the system. No point in putting in a system that doesn't have a loophole, eh? You'd never know when that might come in handy.
As a safeguard they gave control over removal of points to ranks of Superintendent (or Inspector acting on their behalf) and above. Those ranks are all, every last one of them, political appointments. No possibility of abuse there, so there isn't. No sir!
It's absolutely SFA to do with rank and file gardai other than as a stick to beat them with. Politicians and legislators take no blame and the media quite deliberately run misleading headlines to make people think that your average garda was writing off points when that wasn't even possible.
So snipe away, but you should know that you've the wrong target in your sights.0 -
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Dermot Illogical wrote: »You're coming on here making wild allegations so I just though I should highlight the fact that you're doing it from a position of ignorance.
There's plenty wrong in AGS, and in many ways it's a dysfunctional organisation, but misplaced criticism is polarizing and probably counter-productive.
You're sniping at a member of AGS over flaws in a system which that member has no dealings with or control over.
Here's the problem with the PP system and AGS:
Govt elected by us legislated that PP system be put in place. Free up courts yadda yadda..
In a typical Irish solution they allowed a system where points wrongly-assigned could be removed from the system. No point in putting in a system that doesn't have a loophole, eh? You'd never know when that might come in handy.
As a safeguard they gave control over removal of points to ranks of Superintendent (or Inspector acting on their behalf) and above. Those ranks are all, every last one of them, political appointments. No possibility of abuse there, so there isn't. No sir!
It's absolutely SFA to do with rank and file gardai other than as a stick to beat them with. Politicians and legislators take no blame and the media quite deliberately run misleading headlines to make people think that your average garda was writing off points when that wasn't even possible.
So snipe away, but you should know that you've the wrong target in your sights.
There is no one denying that fish rots from the head or the the higher levels bear the greater responsiblity but all members of the force create the culture of the organisation and that culture was not hospitable to those whistleblowers
and until rank and file stand up to that nothing will change , lets stop blaming everybody else and take our own share of responsibility no matter how little that is.0 -
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As you have made you mind up I for the sake of the rest of us I hope something will change it.
Don't you get that it is really isn't up to you to tell us how good you are or dedicated you are ? We have been hearing that year after year as the force has lurched from cover up to crisis to cover up and so we are where we are.
AGs have lost the confidence of citizens and only AGS can regain it , and no poor me will cut it. If you don't see that then ye really are an inward looking organisation.
As for me making up my mind , when you start loosing the older demographic you really should stop and think .
Well management only treat me like a number, so it's up to me to tell people how good i am. I go out of my way to try and make the image of AGS (at least where i am) better, and the feedback i get from the public tells me i'm doing it right, with people visiting telling me the positive image i give out. Management don't hear about that, they only see the amount of detections, tickets, etc. So, it is up to me. And i will continue to do it for as long as my heart is in the job.
And therein lies the crux. You're telling me we're losing the older demographic, but if the older demographic has an opinion like yourself, where every Garda is to blame for the actions of those with which we have no dealings with, well then i'm not sorry to lose that. Your mind is made up, you refuse to accept that not every Garda is the same, and only a miracle would change your mind. I'll continue to work with the demographics that appreciate the work i, and my colleagues do, the same demographics that know we're not all one in the same. The same demographics who make comments to me on the tough position we're in when the bad apples of AGS bring us into the limelight, but understand that we're not all bad apples. That is by far a larger demographic, and i have previous time to be wasting on people who just won't listen.
I'm leaving this conversation now, simple because it's going the same as every "debate" concerning AGS, people refusing to accept that we're not all the same. I end up going round in circles, repeating myself constantly, and getting point blank refusal to take my points. That is not a debate, that is an argument. I have accepted, constantly, that there are those within AGS that are doing damage, but at the same time there are far, far more who do nothing but great work. Those who i debate with don't accept the latter, and that, imo, is not a debate.0 -
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Potential Monke.
While I see your side of the 'debate', you are refusing to see others' view of the 'debate'.
The actions of any one employee of ANY company, has the capacity to tarnish the entire image of the company.
Have you ever heard the phrase - If a customer is happy, nobody hears about it, but if a customer is unhappy, EVERYBODY hears about it! This is just reality. AGS is not immune from this phenomenon.
If I go into a chain of restaurants and find a fly in my soup, you can be damned sure, the entire restaurant will know about it, the papers will know about it, and everyone will think of flies in soup whenever they hear of that chain of restaurants again.
If I buy a litre of branded milk, and it is gone off, I will probably avoid that brand in future. And probably the shop I bought it in.
That is life.
Now, the chain of restaurants might have sold 1,000 bowls of fly-less soup that year. It's irrelevant.
The litre of milk may have accidentally been punctured in transit and it wasn't noticeable or the fault of anyone in the manufacturing or retail process. 1,000,000 fresh litres of milk may have been successfully sold that year. It's irrelevant.
For me, I won't go back to that chain of restaurants, and I won't buy that brand of milk again.
It's the same with AGS. Once an image is tarnished, it is very difficult to restore. Especially when there is a reluctance to engage or accept any responsibility or initiate reform or prevent similar incidents in the future.
This is the point you (and AGS) are missing.
Complaining and feeling hard-done-by will not change anything. The willingness to engage, reform and change needs to come from the top down.0 -
It's the same with AGS. Once an image is tarnished, it is very difficult to restore. Especially when there is a reluctance to engage or accept any responsibility or initiate reform or prevent similar incidents in the future.
This is the point you (and AGS) are missing.
Complaining and feeling hard-done-by will not change anything. The willingness to engage, reform and change needs to come from the top down.
but you also seem to be missing the point here as well, there is no reluctance to engage or initiate reform by Garda members.
the representative associations have been calling for 30 years for an independant Garda authority.
at the end of your post you say;
The willingness to engage, reform and change needs to come from the top down.
so why are you trying to say its up to the ordinary garda members then?
rank and file garda are more than willing to change things, every wants the politics taken out of policing.
we all know what a bad state our health service is in, if your mother is left lying on a trolley in a corridor for 24 hours you will complain about the system.
but i bet you will also say 'but its not the nurses or doctors fault'
exactly, they do their best with what they have.
Rank and file Gardai are not in charge.0 -
but you also seem to be missing the point here as well, there is no reluctance to engage or initiate reform by Garda members.
the representative associations have been calling for 30 years for an independant Garda authority.
at the end of your post you say;
The willingness to engage, reform and change needs to come from the top down.
so why are you trying to say its up to the ordinary garda members then?
rank and file garda are more than willing to change things, every wants the politics taken out of policing.
we all know what a bad state our health service is in, if your mother is left lying on a trolley in a corridor for 24 hours you will complain about the system.
but i bet you will also say 'but its not the nurses or doctors fault'
exactly, they do their best with what they have.
Rank and file Gardai are not in charge.
My point is that the top level management is not and has not been willing to change. Very early on in this discourse, I put forward the hope that with Callinan & his ilk gone, the newer, younger members, might build a culture of reform as they progress through the ranks to seniority. I just hope they're not poisoned on the way to the top.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »Well management only treat me like a number, so it's up to me to tell people how good i am. I go out of my way to try and make the image of AGS (at least where i am) better, and the feedback i get from the public tells me i'm doing it right, with people visiting telling me the positive image i give out. Management don't hear about that, they only see the amount of detections, tickets, etc. So, it is up to me. And i will continue to do it for as long as my heart is in the job.
And therein lies the crux. You're telling me we're losing the older demographic, but if the older demographic has an opinion like yourself, where every Garda is to blame for the actions of those with which we have no dealings with, well then i'm not sorry to lose that. Your mind is made up, you refuse to accept that not every Garda is the same, and only a miracle would change your mind. I'll continue to work with the demographics that appreciate the work i, and my colleagues do, the same demographics that know we're not all one in the same. The same demographics who make comments to me on the tough position we're in when the bad apples of AGS bring us into the limelight, but understand that we're not all bad apples. That is by far a larger demographic, and i have previous time to be wasting on people who just won't listen.
I'm leaving this conversation now, simple because it's going the same as every "debate" concerning AGS, people refusing to accept that we're not all the same. I end up going round in circles, repeating myself constantly, and getting point blank refusal to take my points. That is not a debate, that is an argument. I have accepted, constantly, that there are those within AGS that are doing damage, but at the same time there are far, far more who do nothing but great work. Those who i debate with don't accept the latter, and that, imo, is not a debate.
This is not what I am saying, if AGS have problems - solve the problems and the public perception will change. The best way to achieve this is not by telling us the other guy did it as an opening gambit.The public are not at fault here.0 -
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Iwannahurl wrote: »Jphone calls at all Divisional Headquarters would be recorded without consent[/URL], and apparently without the knowledge of officers up to the rank of Inspector.
I have heard senior legal people in radio interviews saying that the taping is an even bigger deal, with possible implications in terms of people's constitutional rights.
I was always under the impression that all phone calls at Emergency Communication Centres were recorded.
Whether you call the Gardai, Fire or Ambulance. Thats how we hear the calls during reconstructions and documentaries.
And it is necessary in case the call taker cannot hear the caller properly and the call needs to be rewound and replayed to get an address or location.
Garda call takers are located in the likes of Harcourt Sq, Angleasea St, Galway and other divisional headquarters and these lines into the Garda stations need obviously to be recorded.
The idea that phones in the custody or cells area that suspects use to communicate with solicitors were recorded is the only thing that needs to be clarified.
A consultation with a solicitor can take place in sight of the garda but not within hearing so obviously the phone on which the consultation takes place should not be one that is recorded.
If recording only happens in communication centres (Harcourt Sq, Anglesea St, Mullingar, Naas, Portlaoise, Roscommon, Sligo, Thurles, Tralee, Waterford and Wexford)
And two of the above don't even detain prisoners (Harcourt Sq + Anglesea St) then the rest need to be clarified and in my opinion that would be easily done.
I would presume that the in and out line of the main garda station number is the only one that is recorded. Not the entire 50-200+ phones based in the station.0 -
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This is not what I am saying, if AGS have problems - solve the problems and the public perception will change. The best way to achieve this is not by telling us the other guy did it as an opening gambit.The public are not at fault here.
neither are rank and file gardai, so maybe blame the top brass, who has caused these problems and dont blame ordinary members, and tell us that that we are feeling sorry for ourselves.0 -
Potential Monke.
While I see your side of the 'debate'... ...Complaining and feeling hard-done-by will not change anything. The willingness to engage, reform and change needs to come from the top down.
I can see the other side of the debate. I understand that there is public anger in relation to the goings on within AGS. We have been aware of politics controlling the job for a while, and it is something we have always (for the last 30 years) tried to get sorted. Problem is, i'm just a Garda, in a station nowhere near Dublin. If i want to voice my concerns, i do so through the GRA, the representative association. Now, because they're just an RA, there is not much they can do, as they (and in turn, we) don't have union status and as such are stuck, for want of a better word.
I also think that your view with regards to bad food in a restaurant, milk gone off, while you're completely entitled to have it and react in any way you want, is a bit OTT. I would also be annoyed if i found a fly in my soup, and it's how the restaurant reacts to that knowledge is how i decide my future thoughts in relation to the establishment. Accidents can happen, that fly may not have been in the soup on the way to your table but managed to fly in en-route. I think letting the whole restaurant know, and subsequently giving bad reviews and never going there again is a bit much, unless the restaurant didn't take responsibility and offer apologies, etc.
It's the same in AGS, but the rank and file members have no say in what the Press Office or the Commissioner decides to say. So even if we wanted to stand up and give a voice to ourselves, we'd be shot down with legalities and red tape, more than likely lose the job for a breach of some Code or Act, and possibly face imprisonment depending on the severity of the breach. So in order to get our voices heard, we use the GRA, and that's back to the first point, they really don't have a voice when it concerns the running of AGS. Granted, they got Haddington Road, and the Croke Park deal, but the effort it took to be even involved in the pay talks was crazy, so you can imagine the effort and time it takes to get anything else heard.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »I can see the other side of the debate. I understand that there is public anger in relation to the goings on within AGS. We have been aware of politics controlling the job for a while, and it is something we have always (for the last 30 years) tried to get sorted. Problem is, i'm just a Garda, in a station nowhere near Dublin. If i want to voice my concerns, i do so through the GRA, the representative association. Now, because they're just an RA, there is not much they can do, as they (and in turn, we) don't have union status and as such are stuck, for want of a better word.
I also think that your view with regards to bad food in a restaurant, milk gone off, while you're completely entitled to have it and react in any way you want, is a bit OTT. I would also be annoyed if i found a fly in my soup, and it's how the restaurant reacts to that knowledge is how i decide my future thoughts in relation to the establishment. Accidents can happen, that fly may not have been in the soup on the way to your table but managed to fly in en-route. I think letting the whole restaurant know, and subsequently giving bad reviews and never going there again is a bit much, unless the restaurant didn't take responsibility and offer apologies, etc.
It's the same in AGS, but the rank and file members have no say in what the Press Office or the Commissioner decides to say. So even if we wanted to stand up and give a voice to ourselves, we'd be shot down with legalities and red tape, more than likely lose the job for a breach of some Code or Act, and possibly face imprisonment depending on the severity of the breach. So in order to get our voices heard, we use the GRA, and that's back to the first point, they really don't have a voice when it concerns the running of AGS. Granted, they got Haddington Road, and the Croke Park deal, but the effort it took to be even involved in the pay talks was crazy, so you can imagine the effort and time it takes to get anything else heard.
You sound as disillusioned with your 'brass' as we are. I genuinely hope that we as a public, can get behind you as a force. You're our force. We need you there and we want you there. I have been a victim of crime. I have been treated brilliantly by gardai, and I have as I said, seen a guard just completely fabricate a statement. It's hard to trust ye.
If ye stand up somehow, you'll have the full public behind you. I'm not aware of the constraints ye have on ye. Perhaps, we as a public, need to speak on your behalves?0 -
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I've councillors coming around looking for my vote recently. I'll bring it up. The one lad I had decided to vote for is a solicitor, he listened to me lol, haven't heard from him since haha. I'll quiz them on this though when they call around again. I don't usually answer the door.
As I said earlier, it is critical for both citizens and guards that we have a mutual respect and trust.0 -
Have no time to read all this thread but Mr Callinan was not a very astute politician to hold such a high profile position. Even in lower 'proceedings' in AGS persons in positions of responsibility have to choose their words very carefully and they have to be fairly temperate.
I was simply astounded he used the disgusting word at the PAC and immediately thought it would rebound on him - which it did.0 -
Alfasudcrazy wrote: »Have no time to read all this thread but Mr Callinan was not a very astute politician to hold such a high profile position.
I think therein lay the problem. Callinan was a policeman, always was and always will be. He was not a politician. The Commissioner of AGS should never be in the political arena. Will be hopelessly outgunned and outplayed at every turn. Then thrown on the scrap heap when your usefulness is less than your uselessness.
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I came in here having the same opinion as most in this thread but Potential-Monke and bubblypop have done a great job of turning my opinion. Good on ye lads, keep it up. As for your management, yeesh.0
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All well and good folks, but maybe it shouldn`t be forgotten that all the abuse that was rained down on McCabe and Wilson was just from the top brass. They were abused and harassed by rank and file in their own areas, and wasn`t there a very quick reaction from at least one of the representative associations calling for heads at GSOC.?
One of the points highlighted in the Smithwicks report was that AGS were more concerned with covering up failings and covering for each other than getting to the truth. There has to be a cultural change in AGS at all ranks.0 -
All well and good folks, but maybe it shouldn`t be forgotten that all the abuse that was rained down on McCabe and Wilson was just from the top brass. They were abused and harassed by rank and file in their own areas, and wasn`t there a very quick reaction from at least one of the representative associations calling for heads at GSOC.?
I've read a lot of the Guerin report and it doesn't reflect very well on McCabe as a supervisor to be honest. If it's an accurate reflection of his behaviour in general I can see why he was not liked.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »I've read a lot of the Guerin report and it doesn't reflect very well on McCabe as a supervisor to be honest. If it's an accurate reflection of his behaviour in general I can see why he was not liked.
Nice to see Someone actually reading rather than regurgitating the status quo.0 -
All well and good folks, but maybe it shouldn`t be forgotten that all the abuse that was rained down on McCabe and Wilson was just from the top brass. They were abused and harassed by rank and file in their own areas, and wasn`t there a very quick reaction from at least one of the representative associations calling for heads at GSOC.?
One of the points highlighted in the Smithwicks report was that AGS were more concerned with covering up failings and covering for each other than getting to the truth. There has to be a cultural change in AGS at all ranks.
I agree with your comments and that has to come from the top right down to rank and file members.
I would like to see the new Garda commissioner being recruited externally, maybe from a UK force or P.S.N.I.
If new commissioner comes from within AGS the culture is not going to change within, an external candidate is the way to go for real change at the core of AGS.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »I've read a lot of the Guerin report and it doesn't reflect very well on McCabe as a supervisor to be honest. If it's an accurate reflection of his behaviour in general I can see why he was not liked.
I don`t see that having to do with anything really.
I wouldn`t imagine being a garda is about winning a popularity contest. I`m sure the gardai that did the favours listed by McCabe are popular with those they gave a dig out too. Problem is that in doing so, and being exposed, gardai have lost the respect of the public.
I would look on the first basic requirement of a garda as being honest and without favouritism, and on that basis alone McCabe stands head and shoulders above Callinan, Shatter, their lapdogs in th DOJ and the gardai that closed ranks in an effort to intimidate him.
A behaviour in general that was summed up in the Smithwicks report of gardai being more interest in protecting each other than doing their job of protecting the public.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »I've read a lot of the Guerin report and it doesn't reflect very well on McCabe as a supervisor to be honest. If it's an accurate reflection of his behaviour in general I can see why he was not liked.
Having read the report, I find that a surprising comment. Can you point to specific parts of the report that reflect deficiencies in Sgt McCabe's supervision? As to his competence and to him not being liked, the report records very positive comments about him from Senior Gardai in sections 20.7 to 20.10 showing that he was held in high regard by his supervisors (20.11), at least in the years before he began making the complaints examined in the Guerin report.0 -
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I don`t see that having to do with anything really.
I wouldn`t imagine being a garda is about winning a popularity contest. I`m sure the gardai that did the favours listed by McCabe are popular with those they gave a dig out too. Problem is that in doing so, and being exposed, gardai have lost the respect of the public.
I would look on the first basic requirement of a garda as being honest and without favouritism, and on that basis alone McCabe stands head and shoulders above Callinan, Shatter, their lapdogs in th DOJ and the gardai that closed ranks in an effort to intimidate him.
A behaviour in general that was summed up in the Smithwicks report of gardai being more interest in protecting each other than doing their job of protecting the public.Having read the report, I find that a surprising comment. Can you point to specific parts of the report that reflect deficiencies in Sgt McCabe's supervision? As to his competence and to him not being liked, the report records very positive comments about him from Senior Gardai in sections 20.7 to 20.10 showing that he was held in high regard by his supervisors (20.11), at least in the years before he began making the complaints examined in the Guerin report.
McCabe showed a habit of overstating crimes. Just as an example, the minibus incident he looked for an investigation of hijacking when there was no evidence of this. He wanted an investigation of sexual assault where there was no complaint from an injured party. In another case where a woman was attacked walking home he looked for an investigation of attempted rape where there was no indication of this. While his thought process may seem logical to some, legally they have no basis whatsoever and with be the end of a criminal offence. If a probationer Garda had taken McCabes advice and arrested one of those lads for hijacking the minibus when they hadn't even sat in the driver seat his case would have been thrown out and he'd be facing a civil action for false arrest. This is a common theme throughout the complaints.
He also showed a strange willingness to report on members instead of instructing them. As a sergeant he is in a position to advise and instruct members. If he thought a probationer wasn't doing something right he should have told him so and helped him do it right instead of writing a complaint. Remember, these are probationer Gardaí who are just out of college with no experience. They rely on senior members and sergeants to tell them how to do things. I think in one case he was even told to assist the member and still blamed the member for the case falling.
Accountability is one thing, hanging probationers out to dry is another.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »McCabe showed a habit of overstating crimes. Just as an example, the minibus incident he looked for an investigation of hijacking when there was no evidence of this. He wanted an investigation of sexual assault where there was no complaint from an injured party. In another case where a woman was attacked walking home he looked for an investigation of attempted rape where there was no indication of this. While his thought process may seem logical to some, legally they have no basis whatsoever and with be the end of a criminal offence. If a probationer Garda had taken McCabes advice and arrested one of those lads for hijacking the minibus when they hadn't even sat in the driver seat his case would have been thrown out and he'd be facing a civil action for false arrest. This is a common theme throughout the complaints.
He also showed a strange willingness to report on members instead of instructing them. As a sergeant he is in a position to advise and instruct members. If he thought a probationer wasn't doing something right he should have told him so and helped him do it right instead of writing a complaint. Remember, these are probationer Gardaí who are just out of college with no experience. They rely on senior members and sergeants to tell them how to do things. I think in one case he was even told to assist the member and still blamed the member for the case falling.
Accountability is one thing, hanging probationers out to dry is another.
I`m at pains to know why you highlighted my post in your posting above as it doesn`t really deal with any of the comments I made, and as to the probationer gardai, Callinan and everyone else down the line of command had no problem hanging them out to dry when assigning them to investigate McCabes complaints.0 -
I`m at pains to know why you highlighted my post in your posting above as it doesn`t really deal with any of the comments I made, and as to the probationer gardai, Callinan and everyone else down the line of command had no problem hanging them out to dry when assigning them to investigate McCabes complaints.
It addresses your issues very well. Being a Garda is not about being popular, it's about getting a job done. And if your sergeant is actively working in a manner that prevents this then he is as much responsible for the failures as anyone else.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »It addresses your issues very well. Being a Garda is not about being popular, it's about getting a job done. And if your sergeant is actively working in a manner that prevents this then he is as much responsible for the failures as anyone else.
There are many ways of getting a job done, and from the Guerin report, which basically only covers what has been going on in just Cavan and
Monaghan,( never mind the rest of the country), then the job is not being done as it should. A fact that the whole country is now aware off, and a begrudging attitude to a sergeant that exposed this isn`t going to change that awareness of the public now that there is something rotten going on in ags.
That attitude has been tried by Shatter, Enda, Callinan, Paul Williams,plus many more of their friends in the media, garda representative assocciations, and rank and file gardai and has failed in spectacular fashion.0 -
There are many ways of getting a job done, and from the Guerin report, which basically only covers what has been going on in just Cavan and
Monaghan,( never mind the rest of the country), then the job is not being done as it should. A fact that the whole country is now aware off, and a begrudging attitude to a sergeant that exposed this isn`t going to change that awareness of the public now that there is something rotten going on in ags.
That attitude has been tried by Shatter, Enda, Callinan, Paul Williams,plus many more of their friends in the media, garda representative assocciations, and rank and file gardai and has failed in spectacular fashion.
Begrudgery? You seem to be missing the point. The sergeant is the link between Gardaí and officers. It is his job to make sure the members of Garda rank are doing their job. That is the point of his position. If the sergeant cannot or will not interact with members of a lower rank in order to do this then he is not doing his job. If he saw something being done wrong he should have done something about it instead of waiting til it went tits up. But from the sounds of the report he was not a good sergeant. Not only could he not deal with the people in his charge but he also seemed to know little about the law going by his recommendations. Assault Causing Harm for pissing in a vinegar bottle? Was he for real?
Your problem is you are so blinded by hero worship of this man becaus ehe has given you a stick to beat the Gardaí with and you can't see anything wrong with him. You aren't alone. Same happened with the penalty points issue. Everyone was so happy he had found hundreds of dodgy cancelled fixed chage penalties they completely ignored the fact he had invaded the privacy of thousands of other people just to get the info.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »Begrudgery? You seem to be missing the point. The sergeant is the link between Gardaí and officers. It is his job to make sure the members of Garda rank are doing their job. That is the point of his position. If the sergeant cannot or will not interact with members of a lower rank in order to do this then he is not doing his job. If he saw something being done wrong he should have done something about it instead of waiting til it went tits up. But from the sounds of the report he was not a good sergeant. Not only could he not deal with the people in his charge but he also seemed to know little about the law going by his recommendations. Assault Causing Harm for pissing in a vinegar bottle? Was he for real?
Your problem is you are so blinded by hero worship of this man becaus ehe has given you a stick to beat the Gardaí with and you can't see anything wrong with him. You aren't alone. Same happened with the penalty points issue. Everyone was so happy he had found hundreds of dodgy cancelled fixed chage penalties they completely ignored the fact he had invaded the privacy of thousands of other people just to get the info.
Are you for real!! Can you not see that that mindset has brought the garda to the present level of total mistrust and disgust by the public. That after the Morris Tribunal and Smithwicks to name but two, we`re now due another from Guerins recommendation. The public are feed up to the back teeth with what they see as a force totally out of control and after all the tribunals and reports, still cannot be trusted to monitor itself, and whose first instinct is to close ranks and blame anyone in sight rather than weed out the few bad apples.
This time i`m afraid they have made it very clear that enough is enough.0 -
Are you for real!! Can you not see that that mindset has brought the garda to the present level of total mistrust and disgust by the public. That after the Morris Tribunal and Smithwicks to name but two, we`re now due another from Guerins recommendation. The public are feed up to the back teeth with what they see as a force totally out of control and after all the tribunals and reports, still cannot be trusted to monitor itself, and whose first instinct is to close ranks and blame anyone in sight rather than weed out the few bad apples.
This time i`m afraid they have made it very clear that enough is enough.
You haven't addressed a single one of the points I made about McCabes conduct. Personally I don't give a toss what the public thinks. The majority don't understand anything about law and policing and the courts. All they'll get from this fiasco is a force that does more paperwork than policework and maybe a new version of GSOC to keep them happy. They aren't interested in real reform. They just want a pound of flesh.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »You haven't addressed a single one of the points I made about McCabes conduct. Personally I don't give a toss what the public thinks. The majority don't understand anything about law and policing and the courts. All they'll get from this fiasco is a force that does more paperwork than policework and maybe a new version of GSOC to keep them happy. They aren't interested in real reform. They just want a pound of flesh.
How do you know we aren't interested in real reform ? The problem is AGS from top to bottom have shown no interest in ,indeed total opposition to , real reform.
By the way a whistleblower could be a complete tosser and still have done us a great service
I take it you a member of AGS and if this is the attitude we really are in trouble .0 -
How do you know we aren't interested in real reform ? The problem is AGS from top to bottom have shown no interest in ,indeed total opposition to , real reform.
By the way a whistleblower could be a complete tosser and still have done us a great service
I take it you a member of AGS and if this is the attitude we really are in trouble .
Because Gardaí have been looking for changes for years and nobody has joined their call. We now have a situation where Gardaí are attired in completely unsuitable uniform, driving unsuitable vehicles, and using outdated equipment and technology. But thank god we can get those few extra penalty points issued per year because that was the real issue. Let's ignore the fact that 1000 Gardaí are injured per year and their asailants face little consequences. We need to focus on the important issues like the case where the Garda couldn't get cctv footage.
I've no issue with what McCabe has revealed, I have a problem with his methods and the fact that he appears to be a part of the failures he's highlighted.
Just out of curiosity, have you read the full Guerin report or just a few extracts from the likes of The Journal or The Star?0 -
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Little CuChulainn wrote: »Because Gardaí have been looking for changes for years and nobody has joined their call. We now have a situation where Gardaí are attired in completely unsuitable uniform, driving unsuitable vehicles, and using outdated equipment and technology. But thank god we can get those few extra penalty points issued per year because that was the real issue. Let's ignore the fact that 1000 Gardaí are injured per year and their asailants face little consequences. We need to focus on the important issues like the case where the Garda couldn't get cctv footage.
I've no issue with what McCabe has revealed, I have a problem with his methods and the fact that he appears to be a part of the failures he's highlighted.
Just out of curiosity, have you read the full Guerin report or just a few extracts from the likes of The Journal or The Star?
This is about a lot more than penalty points and equipment . This is the part where we preface every discussion in Ireland with the caveat the 95% of serving - insert as appropriate- be it priests doctors garda etc are doing an outstanding job so lets not allow a few bad apples tarnish the whole organisation.
But the problem is none of these organisation look kindly on whistleblowers and for that culture to flourish it is the silence of the many that enable the few to corrupt the system . So where were all these individuals clamouring for change when all this was going on ?
And not ignoring penalty points but the warning signs are going on for years, the Donegal fiasco in any other country would have been more than the final straw and brought about jail sentences, where as we just roll on.
Not that it is relevant but I am working my way through the report as best I can0
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